solemn.9670

Condi CC meta ... no thx

Anet did a lot of things right with that patch, to their credit.

But I don't like needing to run sigil cleanse on every single build I play.

> @"kiwituatara.6053" said:

> Druids are very susceptible to CCs, especially the ones running traps, chain CC them and its over.

>

> If they're running survival skills with more stun breaks, that means they have less CCs to proc root. Most pets die easily, just kill them and they won't have a source of CC to proc seeds except for shortbow5.

>

> I think immob druids are only OP when its a condi build. Power druid dmg is meh and the healing is meh. But then again, most condi builds of any class is cheese.

I think the reason I find it so absurd is because I'm running a full melee build with a lot of mobility. Because I have so much mobility, it's basically not so different from a ranged build, so I don't generally struggle with rangers - or, I didn't, before patch. Since I can't move, I can't CC, attack their pet etc.. One of my cleanses is a weapon swap which on ele I am doing constantly, so there is no way to assure that I'll have the cleanse at the appropriate time, another is a dodge, which I cannot do while rooted/immobed, another is locked behind a 4-8 second attunement cooldown, and the other requires a critical hit which I cannot do without any ranged attacks and probably wouldn't suffice anyway because chances are it ends up transferring cripple/bleed instead.

I could run fire weaver, which has much easier cleanse uptime -- and I have done this before -- and every time he would immob me to bait a cleanse, I'd be immobed again and before someone says "just dodge after cleansing" yes I've tried that, the next immob is only a few seconds away don't worry, you're GOING to be immobed again, that's the problem with this build. Too many GD immobs.

And anyway, is anyone here seriously challenging the idea that being immobed/CC constantly while fighting off condi simultaneously is an unfun and unrewarding meta? Seriously, do people like this? Are we happy with this?

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> We have already been discussing this in the Ranger section... The fight you had lasted 3 minutes and you were outplayed. And if you wanna complain about Immobilize (again), then let's discuss what to nerf on Weaver since you "win 7/10, sometimes 8/10 matchups 1v1, not even exaggerating. I do not have issues fighting rangers, generally speaking." and have a pretty steady supply of Barrier... And this game isn't 1v1 btw.

The fight I had lasted 3 minutes and I was outplayed? I'm sure I've been killed by a ranger recently and they probably did outplay me, maybe they genuinely did, or maybe it was 2am on a sat morning and I was off my rocker, but the fact that you're assuming I'm even referencing that ONE time out of the hundreds of interactions I've had in WvW recently is laughable.

Yes I have a 50 second cooldown supply of barrier which can easily be countered by simply going on the defensive. And yes I've earned my ability to win most of my matchups, I've been maining ele for years now. I realize I'm not the only ele main around here but the fact that this cannot be said about the VAST majority of them says enough. There is no ego in that statement, it's a video game, I couldn't care less if you thought I was absolute trash - but the fact of the matter is that I'm not, and you can cry about me winning my matchups if you are so inclined. There is a reason why I don't win them all - BETTER PLAYERS, or better builds, or simply outplayed occasionally.

> Edit- “I'm running half-zerk with DPS traits and can easily 3-shot most builds”... We're gonna have to nerf that “3-shot” stuff, and Barrier too, if you want to nerf Immobilize on other professions.

Nah you're right, take away the only 3 DPS skills I have. While you're at it, make thieves unable to hit for more than 2k. Make warriors only able to hit 4k max. But let deadeyes just straight up 1-shot people. Burn me for being able to combo somebody down IF I am even so lucky AND they are running glassy, though.

Hope no one ever puts you in charge of balance.

> @"Kondor.2904" said:

> At first I thought it was a 60% troll post, since I don't understand how you can complain about condis when playing with antitoxin runes and cleansing sigils, especially in a 1v1 scenario. Maybe you should try to actually build yourself around avoiding getting hit by condis and using cleansing/antitoxin as a backup, instead of facetanking and trying to clear every single condi ? Just a thought, idk.

Oh cool .. yet another "LUL JUST DODGE" post. Clearly we should all be listening to this guy since he's better than all of us put together, I mean, he doesn't "facetank", he just magically avoids being hit by condi and runs zero cleanses whatsoever. Clearly a pro like this runs no armour/runes/sigils/food at all and just uses his amazing skill to avoid the non-stop condi spam of which there are not enough evades/invulns/blocks/etc in the game to possibly avoid.

Brb let me just predict this condi application which has no pre-cast animation

let me just go do that

so I can """""stop facetanking""""

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > Ty that's a good tip

> > But

> > This brings me to the same issue I have with the condi meta. I don't want to be boxed into running one rune/setup just because one or two builds are ridiculous, and running this to counter them puts me at a competitive disadvantage vs every other build in the game where I'd benefit more from other runes.

> Then dont.

>

> I dont want be boxed into running a ranged condi bunker over a few obscene enemy power builds because it puts me at a competetive disadvantage over anti-condi/condi-transfer or against larger groups due to exponentially decreaseing effectivness or against reflects either but there you go.

Then don't.

See how easy it is to just blanket everything with that statement.

Balance in this game in general has never been perfect.

Immob druid is absurdly out of balance. Start with it, and move from there down.

---------------------------

I don't care if what I'm saying is a popular opinion or not.

You could tell a room of 100 people that the earth is round and be sure that 5% of them won't understand the statement and another 5% will disagree.

There are always pockets of the internet, echo chambers sometimes, where this 10% thrives.

Make a convincing statement as to why immob druid is not absurdly op.

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> Have you tried using the Resistance boon or movement skills that ignore immobs instead?

I can't use warrior skills on ele and ele has no resistance

> @"rng.1024" said:

> Pro tip:

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Revenant

>

> This allows you to run out of the vines so the immob doesn't reapply. It has the same cooldown as the immob trait.

>

> Remember you can destroy the vines. Any point blank AoE will do, and conditions like burn will do alot. Warrior/revs/necros have specific traits that help, guardian/mesmer/thief have teleports to take you out of them, engineer can convert it to resistance, rangers have ranged counterpressure (roots do no dmg) and elementalists have high damage point blank AoE.

Ty that's a good tip

But

This brings me to the same issue I have with the condi meta. I don't want to be boxed into running one rune/setup just because one or two builds are ridiculous, and running this to counter them puts me at a competitive disadvantage vs every other build in the game where I'd benefit more from other runes.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> If you want to see how powerful builds like this really are go to PvE and play Fractals or Raids where its literally used to cheese the content because enemies can't do anything against it. Its not much different in WvW, players are just a bit smarter.

+1

I expected as much, honestly I encourage it, please make it so obvious to anet that it gets patched faster.

I am running cleanse sigil, sigil of generosity, antitoxin rune, and even with food & water signet creating a total of -65% incoming condi duration, also with weapon condi cleanses, I am unable to do anything beyond sit and die to immob rangers. They bind me, I attack and attack and attack and even though I'm running half-zerk with DPS traits and can easily 3-shot most builds it takes far too long just to kill the roots, and then I'm immobed again, cleanse it, immobed again immediately, and then the **roots are back again already** and I proceed to die stupidly to someone playing a build that is 0% risk 100% reward.

I actually can't think of anything worse in the game that I've ever encountered, at any point in time. I would rather fight 3 condi mirages than 1 immob ranger. I would rather fight perma-stealth no-balls rifle deadeye. At least I can PLAY the game vs those builds.

Condi is ruining WvW. There are not enough cleanses.

Inb4 someone says "but MY build/class has enough cleanses"

Good for you.

This is yet another example of why village-mindset is superior to city-mindset.

Why would any of this be relevant if you actually knew the people you were interacting with.

Too many people in this world.

I don't have enough time to delve deep into this thread but I just want to say THANK YOU. As with literally everything in this game there is always a subset of people who complain "____ is not good anymore", meanwhile there are competent players like you who actually make it very much meta.

Also I don't know if anyone has said this but if you're going for maximum healing, select Unstable Conduit instead of Gale Song (in the first build).

Also I personally prefer minstrel or at least harriers due to boon uptime being an important benefit of tempest (specifically Might, and a little bit of regen/prot occasionally, also Fury if you take Fire traitline instead of arcane which I sometimes do for extra cleanse+fury uptime for party assuming the com allows us to empower before pushing. Easy 40-50 seconds of fury.)

++1 agreed

Glass Staff Weaver

>! For pure DPS in a variety of situations, use glass staff weaver. Don't tank up with marauders, go full zerk and be smart about how you position yourself, heal when you nearly die to retaliation which will happen a lot, use dodges/lightning flash/burning retreat effectively. If you do this, the 13k healpool is really not so bad, and the damage is near-unbeatable (occasionally a power DPS scrapper may win in melee fights).

>!

>! I don't want to type this preemptive rebuttal but since it's usually inevitable in these threads: people will argue that other dps classes are objectively better for the utility they provide, or cleanses/boonstrips/boons etc, this is a valid argument but it misses the point. When you go for pure DPS your goal is to accumulate downs and break high-sustain groups down enough that downs CAN be generated by you and/or other people, where-as with 80% of the dps and some boons/cleanse/strip etc, sure you're doing multiple jobs but the enemy is not dying because their raw sustain is simply too high if they're comped right. Plus, weaver has plenty of CCs and I use them all the time in my rotations. You can even get a couple cleanses in if you have time for it, WHILE doing #1 dps in squad.

You can use marauder gear if you don't need to be top damage and just want to survive more often.

Build:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAYZlFw8YUsI2JOcLbvNA-zVRYBRV5tYoQFSTFRghQFZitXgA2AvFrOjA-w

Start at 9:37 for gameplay

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> >

> > Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

> >

>

> Most of this topic is some weird circle jerk that is just a repeat of my very first comment at varying levels of condescension. I'd like to inquire more in-depth as to what exactly you find at fault here. We determined that elementalist has builds capable of handling conditions/condition builds (though un-fun or what have you they may be). And here we have a video with a list of builds. Is the frustration that you cannot play all of these builds vs anyone? If so I'd point to my initial comment and say that's a bit neurotic. Your gnome fart build has an entire 6 cleanses most of which are difficult to access or not conveniently applied. It strikes me as very odd to expect something like that to work against every build when it clearly makes certain sacrifices pretty intentionally. A PvE raider DH can express frustration that they can't perform their PvE rotation on players and do mad DPS, but that wouldn't make their frustration justified.

>

> Looking at all these builds in this specific posted video it feels more like your frustration isn't with conditions per se, but rather with a lack of viable elementalist options to deal with them. I'd agree with this sentiment though this forum seems like the wrong place to express them. Elementalist is generally locked into combining two different traitlines to get manageable condi clears (Usually water + something, though fire + something works now too) which makes trying to use the other traitlines an exercise in frustration in a roaming scene that you are going to encounter condi builds about 50% of the time if not more. Most classes have several solid condi cleanse utilities or heal skills, the elementalist is left with a fantastic heal skill that will never perform unless you have stability which the elementalist has very severe lack of, and a single utility which is... not bad, but really needs water line to be effective, which gives you all the clears you need anyway. So you're left with either combining two traitlines and gimping build creativity, or trying to smash as many cleanses into your runes/sigils which again can kitten build creativity, especially since elementalist only gets two sigils compared to most classes 4.

>

> I... would like to see elementalist changed a bit, the utility flaw has long existed and really shouldn't. I don't think I can label this a problem of condi builds themselves though.

/thread

Very well put. That about summarizes my frustration. Yeah, sorry about this thread, maybe I'm really just complaining about ele. They really should do something about arcane being necessary on nearly every roaming build. Maybe Ele should just get boons from swapping attunements regardless of arcane, I realize that might sound like a buff to an already very formidable class/build(s) but with boons being tied to Arcane traitline it's not usually viable to forgo it. And this makes ele roamers play minor variants of the same couple builds for the most part.

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > > > The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.

> > > > > If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

> > > >

> > > > Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

> > > >

> > > > edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

> > >

> > > You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

> > >

> > > Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

> > >

> > > You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

> > >

> > > Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

> > >

> > > I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

> >

> > This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

>

> Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.

> > > If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

> >

> > Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

> >

> > edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

>

> You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

>

> Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

>

> You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

>

> Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

>

> I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

Yes of course fire weaver still works very well against condi.

I don't want to play fire weaver anymore though.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

> > >

> > > Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

> >

> > Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

> >

> > If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....

> > Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...

> > and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,

> > or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s

> > or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

> >

> > What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing

> > How is it being DOT not a moot point

> >

> > I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.

> > If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

> >

> > Condi DPS is still quite good

> >

> > I don't understand

> >

> > DPS is still DPS

> >

> > ???????????????

>

> DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

>

> Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

>

> Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

>

> The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

>

> Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

>

> The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

>

> Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

>

> Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

>

>

I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.

> > > If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

> >

> > Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

> >

> > edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

>

> You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

>

> Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

>

> You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

>

> Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

>

> I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.

> If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

>

> Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....

Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...

and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,

or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/s

or a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeing

How is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.

If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

My opinion has always been the same on this.

CC is not challenging. It doesn't add anything valuable to the game's overall experience. It's just frustrating and makes the player feel like any skill/talent they have is wasted on waiting 3 seconds while some no-brain warrior strips your stability, spams cc and then downs you in 4 hits, right after already doing exactly that 15 seconds beforehand and making you use your only stunbreak(s).

Same goes for being feared for 10 seconds. Why is that even possible. You can't CC someone for 10 seconds, why should you be able to fear them for 10 seconds. The only way out is a utility cleanse which many builds won't have since they rely on traits for cleanse.

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

> > > >

> > > > Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

> > >

> > > It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

> >

> > I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

> >

> > DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

>

> Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

>

> Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

If they're taking damage which is 5 to 10 times the amount of their health, they're healing for a LOT or have dedicated healer. Maybe the issue is support builds. In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

> >

> > Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

>

> It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.

> So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

>

> And with that being said... /thread

Fight a competent condi mirage or core necro, maybe even a burn guard if they're very clever, and tell me you don't need antitoxin runes. They will wipe the floor with anyone that isn't running a counter build if they know what they're doing. Ok, MAYBE if you went 300 IQ mode and borderline-predicted-the-future or were very lucky, you could utilize all your cleanses at the optimal times without antitoxin rune, WHILE doing damage somehow because if you do not they will just continue spamming, and that could suffice. But that's rare. And I'm not the best ele but I'm certainly not bad either, I can tell you it's genuinely very difficult to fight these builds if you're not running antitoxin. Find someone who is very talented with core necro or condi mirage and try to beat them, you'll understand pretty quickly.

> @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

> But yes, no go on, you're right - let's slot max condi cleanses in every build we play so that we can counter the 2-3 builds that we infrequently run into, so that when we fight the builds that we would be fighting 80% of the time we'll be at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, realistic fights ? Throw that out the window. Theoretical cleanses is the only thing that matters. If it's possible to cleanse 20 condis in the first 30 seconds, that means it's always going to be possible/viable, yes. Cause I really love to just spam cleanses for 30 seconds straight without being able to focus on doing any lasting damage to the opponent, that's balanced gameplay right there.

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> Ok now that I have some more time to go in depth.

> @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" Which class is it that you play that you feel forced to run Antitoxin, cuz let's have a little look at what condi cleanse classes have available across the spectrum.

>

> **Mesmer:** I would have to login to double check but off the top of my head I currently run 20-22 cleanses over the first 30 secs of the fight, should the need arise, which is never because that's 3 full condi bombs cleansed.

>

> **Warrior:** You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs and that's without investing too much into it, you could go way more if you really wanna build for it.

>

> **Ranger:** You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs by playing the standard wilderness survival/BM build. If you go druid that number goes astronomically high.

>

> **Engineer:** If you make use of your fields (toolbelt and conjured weapons) and finishers you can cleanse an insane amount of condi, I don't think I'm able to make an educated guess without spending time looking at it. But think Upward of 15.

>

> **Guardian:** This one doesn't need any consideration, anyone that has played the game for more than 2 days, can tell you this guy is your boy when condi is present, best part his is AoE.

>

> **Elementalist:** Tricky, depending on build it could have insane cleanse potential or close to none.

> **Edit:** I just got back from my Ele guy. Without going overboard you can get 15 cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight, no Antitoxin runes, no Cleansing sigil.

>

> **Necromancer:** Decent arsenal of impactful cleansing/transfer options available in the base kit. Needs no further consideration, maybe Reaper is on the lower end? Though again you can probably slot in enough condi cleanse without having to resort to Antitoxin runes, which is what you claim is required.

>

> **Thief:** If you're a Daredevil, literally all you have to do is pick escapist fortitude and shadowstep and you're already borderline never going to have a problem with condi. For the others slotting Signet of Agility and 1-2 cleansing sigil(s) is more than sufficient to put you in good standing to where you'll never need to slot Antitoxin runes.

>

> **Revenant:** I have a feeling this is where the bread winner is gonna be, Power Shiro has always had lackluster cleanse options, however the not so recent changes to cleansing sigil made them fair much better. Power Shiro is a glass cannon kill or be killed kind of spec that has active defense options to sustain itself for the duration of the fight. Yes it doesn't do well against heavy condi pressure, but no build is good against everything. This is prolly the only build I'd say requires double cleansing in the current meta.

> On the other hand, if you look at Malyx Rev, practically immune to condi.

>

> Was that 9? I believe it was. Now to summarize, every single class in the game has options to build for more than enough condi cleanse, to deal with just about any situation that isn't a blob full of pulsing AoE and that is fine, that's why you have your resident Mender FBs to compound cleanse the blob, but your title says "roaming" so we'll just ignore that point altogether. The only build and I do say build as it's not representative of the class as a whole is Power Shiro Rev.

> So what exactly is your problem with condi cleanses and why do you feel the need slot Antitoxin runes to roam successfully?

>

> Tl;DR: Your complaint feels more like universal hatred for condis, stemming from you being lazy or unwilling to slot any cleanse options provided by your kit so you can drool over big numbers while yelling "BIG DAMAGE, BIG DAMAGE!"

>

> Edit: I stand corrected, the OP is a FIRE WEAVER, oh the irony. :lol:

It's a bit ignorant to suggest that running fire weaver is ironic after it's been neutered so much. If you struggle to fight a fire weaver post-patch, ur doin it wrong. Burn guard on the other hand is basically where fire weaver was at pre-patch ... and no wonder why fire weaver was neutered, burn guard needs the same done to it.

But yes, no go on, you're right - let's slot max condi cleanses in every build we play so that we can counter the 2-3 builds that we infrequently run into, so that when we fight the builds that we would be fighting 80% of the time we'll be at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, realistic fights ? Throw that out the window. Theoretical cleanses is the only thing that matters. If it's possible to cleanse 20 condis in the first 30 seconds, that means it's always going to be possible/viable, yes. Cause I really love to just spam cleanses for 30 seconds straight without being able to focus on doing any lasting damage to the opponent, that's balanced gameplay right there.

Login server seems to be down right now.

Great post.

I'll play ranked PvP when I can queue an entire team myself. I don't like being punished for the mistakes of others. 2v2 ranked was incredibly fun and rewarding for skilled players, it should always be available. At least I carry 50% of the weight of my team in a 2v2.