Razor.6392

> @Phantaram.1265 said:

> I think scepter FA weaver is pretty gimmicky. Core scepter FA ele brings just about as much burst to the table with a much more comfortable rotation of consistent damage and an amount of survivability that is completely manageable. FA weaver reminds me of unload thief where you just hope the enemy team doesn't have enough competent players to will deal with you.

>

> Core FA is a tier 1 build for ranked queues right now. Went 23-2 from 1630 to 1800 rating a few days ago after stopping the weaver experimenting and going for actual wins with try hard core FA. Both losses being extremely close games with probably 6+ well known pvp players in each match. Core FA deals with the 3 strongest PoF specs brilliantly. Out ranges any shenanigans scourge and spellbreaker do to anyone in melee range, is one of the very few guaranteed 1v1 wins against spellbreaker (along with curses scourge, inform me if there are others), and deals with Firebrand aegis spam like a champ allowing for big hits from you and your allies to take down the Firebrand quickly.

>

> Lightning Rod Sw/F weaver feels like the Core FA of weaver. It has very manageable survivability with great burst and consistent damage against most targets. It's weaknesses being the fact that standing near a scourge for a split second can mean death and killing spellbreakers is not realistic in 1v1s. It's weaker than FA core against classes like core warrior and core guardian/dragonhunter too. They are manageable but fights like Core guard can end in 20-30s on fresh air ele and are a free win where as with LR weaver it's a struggle that's going to take a lot of healing rotations to grind through their cooldowns.

>

> I'd say the best 3 builds for spvp ranked queues on ele right now are Core FA, Lightning Rod Sw/F weaver, and Sages Sw/D weaver in that order. I'm inexperienced on tempest but my impression is that support builds have their issues in ranked q in the first place and that firebrand is just better in every way in ranked q. (in 5v5 competitive tempest can die and go through mesmer portals which is a big advantage firebrand does not have)

>

> Post started as a small comparison between Core FA and Weaver FA and ended up being my analysis of the state of elementalist in ranked spvp queues. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What about lightning rod scepter weaver?

The only skill that stands out in there is Obsi flesh, because it's a weapon skill. I'm kinda biased but I feel like ele _needs_ this to survive, while for other classes, their respective invulns are just the icing on top.

Invulns, especially passive ones, should get a MASSIVE cooldown increase. I'm talking about 2-5 minutes for autoproc ones (elixir S, endure pain) and at least 90 seconds for active ones.

In a perfect world, skills that allow you to avoid damage while nuking at the same time shouldn't exist.

Meme kids who think they're clever. Just ignore them, they think they're original, just shows they constantly got bullied and need the satisfaction of having the last word.

> @juno.1840 said:

> @"Razor.6392" I find the F5 for Weave Self interesting as well as making Unravel an Elite.

>

> Can you provide details on how the new Unravel Elite would work? Does it become a toggle-stance (like what I proposed for F5), or is it just a more spammable version of the Unravel utility skill?

Just like it currently works. It's still a stance after all. Could gain buffs based on the attunement activation, boons, condi clear, quickness, aura, idk. Whatever fits the theme.

I would go with numerical stat increase (moving it from Weave Self to Unravel). Weave Self could instead get something else.

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> That's an interesting take on Weaver's problem.

> The light Aura seems a little out of place, I'd prefer getting the corresponding Aura for whatever Element I'm fully attuning to.

> However that doesn't quite solve the problem of Weaver itself as in: You still need a Skill (Elite in this case) to fix the main problem with Weaver - not beeing able to react properly to threads and beeing stuck in a rotation only able to escape by bypassing the core mechanic of the spec. I'd prefer to just be able to juggle my elements more fluidly by default so that Weaver actually feels like a versatile class.

> However the more I think about Weave Self as an F5 the more I come to like it - it's like you're slowly attuning to all Elements, growing more powerful in the process. But then Weave Self would need a small change in itself, currently it has lots of utility and defensive stats and offense-wise offers nothing for power builds (only condi bonus on Fire).

Yeah well, the buffed effects are up for discussion. It could be boons though weaver has nothing to do with boons, or auras (tempest's domain). Could be superspeed, or unique effects like clearing condi, resetting global attunement cd or even a stun break?

I don't want to shove this idea down everyone's throats but I feel it's way better than having unravel as F5. With enough thought behing this elite's secondary mechanics (to justify its slot over FGS) it could be really satisfying to use.

You can always buff Sword's range, damage or cast times, same with other stances, but the one thing that needs actual changes and maybe a rework, is the inability to access #3 #4 and #5 abilities at will. This is a heavy limitation on a weaver's potential.

Unravel is the skill that fixes all non-numerical problems with Weaver, and everyone knows this. However, it's perceived as weak and not worth the utility slot. (It is very hard to fit into an ele's utility slot nowadays).

So make Unravel the elite, and put a nerfed Weave Self (stat wise, and maybe remove it from the Stance category) as our F5, just like Chronomancers get Continuum Split (which also has a 90s CD, further decreased by Alacrity).

Obviously to fit into Elite category it would need buffs so give it something like:

* 3 charges up from 2.

* 30s recharge per stack

* 5s cooldown between uses

* Light aura on use

* Pulsing quickness for the duration(?)

What do you think? I really feel like this would be the fix to the class plus it would make it much more pleasant to play (and on par with the ridiculousness that are other PoF specs).

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > All garbage ideas. Have the F5 be weave self and let unravel be an elite.

>

> And then? Weave Self and Unravel are bost barely ever beeing used since FGS is a thing and will always be a thing I imagine. If Weave Self was F5 you'd just use it as much as you can to abuse the bonus stats as the lowered CD doesn't really solf the problem that you cannot instantly react (2s CD is still more then none to access your 4&5's) and how much do you think you'd have to buff Unravel to make it a reasonable elite to be considered over FGS?

>

> To call all other ideas "garbage" while going into so little detail about your own suggestion is quite rude, most people here have spend time thinking about their ideas about pros and cons while you just barge in and call everything garbage :D

>

> > We had considered this at one point early on, but decided not to go with it. The weaver’s mechanic and trade offs are designed with needing to go through main-hand to off hand. We left Unravel as a unique utility option for the purpose of improving rotations or providing instant access to needed weapon skills, but did not want to embed it into the core of the specialization.

>

> Karl's response to Unravel as F5 Question

>

> Now I'm curious though, how did they think Weaver should make up for those trade offs?

> Looks to me like they just pushed as much damage mods into the traits as possible to make Weaver even remotely viable - which is terrible design for a spec that is supposed to be super flexible weaving through his attunements and juggling the elements to combine and create new spells, all of that screams flexible spellslinger like gameplay that can quickly adapt - weaver does none of that, weaver just hopes nothing goes wrong so he can profit on his insane damage mods which barely ever happens. Please make Weaver more skill based and less "oh god please let my enemies be stunned for 4 more seconds so I can pull off all my damage"

I think you overestimate FGS' usage. If Unravel is made an elite I would always use it as a weaver, provided it received extra buffs of course.

Weave Self as F5 is not meant to fix the problem. That is already being fixed with Unravel as the elite. WS as F5 is just the icing on the cake, just like Chronos get a new F5 that is super good, why would this be a bad thing again? It could be balanced accordingly (reduced stats).

Unravel as F5 is a very bad idea.

All garbage ideas. Have the F5 be weave self and let unravel be an elite.

Nothing more fun than seeing my shower do damage 5 times then all the meteors whiff even though I'm seeing them connect.

Excellent desisn.

As mentioned in other thread, make Unravel our elite, put Weave Self as F5! Problem solved!

Of course unravel would need buffs in order to fill the elite role, but that's the least of our concerns.

Outside numerical changes such as damage, range and casting time, I would like to address the main fault with the spec:

The limitation on skills #3 #4 and #5.

I can't think of a solution that doesn't involve a counter-intuitive choice with irregular cooldowns and inconsistent design across the board (Such as F5 unravel, lower cooldown for same-attunement switch, enable weapon swap, etc. All bad).

Easiest and most effective way to achieve this is through Unravel. This skill already exists and gives us the perfect solution for this problem. The issue here is that it doesn't bring enough to justify its space as a utility slot. The way elementalist is right now, much like his reliance to water (and earth for tempest), is that an ele **cannot** survive without certain utilities equipped, in pvp at least.

Lightning Flash is a must. For dps builds, Arcane Blast or Wave must be in the bar. For more in the heat of battle builds you need Armor of Earth. Hell you're already at a disadvantage if you want to equip something unconventional specific to your build (Glyph of elemental power, any signet, any conjure, most glyphs).

So my proposal is the following: **Make Unravel the Weaver's Elite skill**

Unravel as the elite wouldn't take a useful utility slot, and it could buffed accordingly on the level of a elite skill.

From there we got 2 paths:

* Merge it with Weave Self (troublesome path)

* Add Weave Self as our F5 (fun path!)

With Chronos having Continuum Shift as their F5, a profession ability on the level of an elite skill. I don't see the problem in having Weave Self as our F5. I think it even has the same cooldown than Chronos F5.

Then, Unravel can be buffed to elite levels of usability.

I would personally give it 3 charges, up from 2. Add a specific buff or boon depending on which attunement is active while the stance lasts, maybe add barrier to it, or make it instantly refresh all global cooldowns on activation (5s ICD between uses ofc). Could add many interesting things.

Sincerely feel this is the best way to fix Weaver's clunkiness.

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > > > @Malafaia.8903 said:

> > > > > > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > > > > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > > > > > > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > > > > > Press 1-2 from range and let your pet do work. Druids have arguably even less thought behind their gameplay so you should be good to go.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ranger was made for players who can't attain higher skill floors.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why do you say that?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Me and my family get together to play GW2 at my house 2-3 times a month. Can get up to 7 people but generally 3-5 range. Just all around great times doing PvP, WvW, and some light open world PvE (usually later after a multitude of beverages)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now one of the best parts is my nephew gets to play and has an absolute blast. He's got downs syndrome and the only class he can actually play and have any success with is ranger. We've tried to get him on other classes like Warrior, Necro, and even guard but he can't get the results that he can get with ranger. He contributes to the group and his manic laughter when stomping ppl makes it all worth while.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That answer your question?

> > > > >

> > > > > So, your point is if you play as a Ranger and fight newbies who don't know how to defend themselves is really easy to play, yes, it is. You explod a lot of damage and BOOM, they're down. I kill some people without them even making a move: knockback, entangle, burst dmg, GS, leap, interrupt, burst dmg, and if they're still alive another pet interrupt and they're down for sure. But if you're playing ranked on silver+ things don't work like this.

> > > > > In fact i think it's easier to play as a Guardian or a Necro, a lot more sustain and possibilities to wait for an error from your opponent.

> > > > > So, please, stop with this kitten of "if you play as ranger its just lb4 -> lb2 pew pew, win". If you think this is how it works you need to play this class a little more.

> > > >

> > > > Point is simple.

> > > >

> > > > My mentally challenged nephew can play ranger with success.

> > > >

> > > > I honestly can't think of a more definitive way of identifying a low skill floor/ceiling.

> > > >

> > > > Can you?

> > >

> > > And my cousin with MS can ride a bike. So what? If it's that good that your mentally challenged nephew can play it with success, why is it hardly seen in top tier? Wouldn't everyone play it since its easy and effective? You can go faceroll a keyboard with a lot of classes and have success against bads. Ranger is an excellent small-scaler, it's easy to deal big damage if your target just lets you free cast with a LB. And that *is* a low skill floor, if you have everyone else to help you and your target is bad, but the ceiling is quite high when you take it out of that scenario.

> >

> > I honestly don't know how the skill ceiling is "quite high". It's the lowest, tied with anything-warrior and DH.

> >

> > All you need to keep into account is when to use skills and when to dodge, WHICH ISN'T EXCLUSIVE TO RANGERS.

> >

> > LB do whatever. 4 -> 2, invis arrow into 5 or GS swap 2 (if you are using GS). Switch to staff or 1h sword and LITERALLY PIANO YOUR KEYBOARD. Maybe use a leap into smokescale field to gain invis. Use CA as soon as it's off cd because really, there's no reason not to do that in a 1v1 unless you could secure the kill. Free daze, lots of heals, run in circles and LoS. Skillful CA usage. Get carried by the auto-entangling roots, auto shared anguish, clear all condis on CA, gain stealth on CA exit _for no real reason_, all while your pet does 4-5k dmg hits (more if you use gazelle!) and you spam that 1 key on staff.

> >

> > Amazingly high skill ceiling.

> >

> >

>

> You are describing the skill floor, not ceiling. Spamming skills is not skilled, using them tactically is. Knowing when and how to use them tactically as well as mechanically microing the pet is the ceiling. You can immediately tell the difference.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how incredibly high the skill ceiling is. Microing a pet is hard? What?

When literal skill spamming is barely different from a master druid, odds are that the class really isnt hard to use.

> @Bish.8627 said:

> Going with none. For once things are quite balanced.

HAHAHAHAHA

This topic is not about a 'bug' though. Charge as a whole is quite suspect.

> @shadowpass.4236 said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > > > @huehuehueh.5106 said:

> > > > hey anet, what in the bill cosby is this kitten?

> > > > https://i.imgur.com/1zuGTOl.jpg

> > > >

> > > > 26,252 + 8,507 +14,461 + 8,507 + 14,461 =

> > > > Instantly blasted with 72,188 damage FROM A PET. My health pool is 23k...

> > > >

> > > > Also no downstate lmao!

> > >

> > > It's obvious that you haven't actually read the thread. Basically, some Rangers are running builds that buff their gazelle to do a lot of damage with charge. There is currently a bug with the skill that allows it to hit multiple times if the target is in the downed state; basically, the first hit puts you in downed state, then the bug takes effect and you get hit several times instantly while downed. There wasn't "no downstate", you went into downed state and subsequently took ~46,000 damage while downed, killing you.

> > >

> > > It isn't a build that's actually useful, it's just a gimmick in conjunction with a bug and people are taking advantage of it.

> >

> > Except I've been hit by 21k by gazelle outside of downstate (which then put me into downstate). Stop trying to justify this. There shouldn't be an instance where an AI CONTROLLED PET does more burst in one hit than the most damaging player abilities in game. I don't give a kitten how hard it is to land.

>

> That isn't the bug though. The bug is the multi hit.

So according to you it's fine to get literally one shot by a pet. This was after me engaging on far after the match started, 10 seconds into the fight against a ranger.

According to you, this is fine. Good design. Because it's "highly telegraphed", this is fine.

I'm just glad you will **never** work as a game designer anywhere lol :D

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > @Malafaia.8903 said:

> > > > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > > > > @Jinks.2057 said:

> > > > > > > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > > > > > Press 1-2 from range and let your pet do work. Druids have arguably even less thought behind their gameplay so you should be good to go.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ranger was made for players who can't attain higher skill floors.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why do you say that?

> > > >

> > > > Me and my family get together to play GW2 at my house 2-3 times a month. Can get up to 7 people but generally 3-5 range. Just all around great times doing PvP, WvW, and some light open world PvE (usually later after a multitude of beverages)

> > > >

> > > > Now one of the best parts is my nephew gets to play and has an absolute blast. He's got downs syndrome and the only class he can actually play and have any success with is ranger. We've tried to get him on other classes like Warrior, Necro, and even guard but he can't get the results that he can get with ranger. He contributes to the group and his manic laughter when stomping ppl makes it all worth while.

> > > >

> > > > That answer your question?

> > >

> > > So, your point is if you play as a Ranger and fight newbies who don't know how to defend themselves is really easy to play, yes, it is. You explod a lot of damage and BOOM, they're down. I kill some people without them even making a move: knockback, entangle, burst dmg, GS, leap, interrupt, burst dmg, and if they're still alive another pet interrupt and they're down for sure. But if you're playing ranked on silver+ things don't work like this.

> > > In fact i think it's easier to play as a Guardian or a Necro, a lot more sustain and possibilities to wait for an error from your opponent.

> > > So, please, stop with this kitten of "if you play as ranger its just lb4 -> lb2 pew pew, win". If you think this is how it works you need to play this class a little more.

> >

> > Point is simple.

> >

> > My mentally challenged nephew can play ranger with success.

> >

> > I honestly can't think of a more definitive way of identifying a low skill floor/ceiling.

> >

> > Can you?

>

> And my cousin with MS can ride a bike. So what? If it's that good that your mentally challenged nephew can play it with success, why is it hardly seen in top tier? Wouldn't everyone play it since its easy and effective? You can go faceroll a keyboard with a lot of classes and have success against bads. Ranger is an excellent small-scaler, it's easy to deal big damage if your target just lets you free cast with a LB. And that *is* a low skill floor, if you have everyone else to help you and your target is bad, but the ceiling is quite high when you take it out of that scenario.

I honestly don't know how the skill ceiling is "quite high". It's the lowest, tied with anything-warrior and DH.

All you need to keep into account is when to use skills and when to dodge, WHICH ISN'T EXCLUSIVE TO RANGERS.

LB do whatever. 4 -> 2, invis arrow into 5 or GS swap 2 (if you are using GS). Switch to staff or 1h sword and LITERALLY PIANO YOUR KEYBOARD. Maybe use a leap into smokescale field to gain invis. Use CA as soon as it's off cd because really, there's no reason not to do that in a 1v1 unless you could secure the kill. Free daze, lots of heals, run in circles and LoS. Skillful CA usage. Get carried by the auto-entangling roots, auto shared anguish, clear all condis on CA, gain stealth on CA exit _for no real reason_, all while your pet does 4-5k dmg hits (more if you use gazelle!) and you spam that 1 key on staff.

Amazingly high skill ceiling.

> @EnderzShadow.2506 said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > Press 1-2 from range and let your pet do work. Druids have arguably even less thought behind their gameplay so you should be good to go.

>

> More thought than what you put into that post.

Don't be upset that a poorly coded AI pet carries any of your builds into relevance!

elite specs carry bad players, more at 11

Voted spellbreaker. At least you can kill scourge in a 1v2.

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > @huehuehueh.5106 said:

> > hey anet, what in the bill cosby is this kitten?

> > https://i.imgur.com/1zuGTOl.jpg

> >

> > 26,252 + 8,507 +14,461 + 8,507 + 14,461 =

> > Instantly blasted with 72,188 damage FROM A PET. My health pool is 23k...

> >

> > Also no downstate lmao!

>

> It's obvious that you haven't actually read the thread. Basically, some Rangers are running builds that buff their gazelle to do a lot of damage with charge. There is currently a bug with the skill that allows it to hit multiple times if the target is in the downed state; basically, the first hit puts you in downed state, then the bug takes effect and you get hit several times instantly while downed. There wasn't "no downstate", you went into downed state and subsequently took ~46,000 damage while downed, killing you.

>

> It isn't a build that's actually useful, it's just a gimmick in conjunction with a bug and people are taking advantage of it.

Except I've been hit by 21k by gazelle outside of downstate (which then put me into downstate). Stop trying to justify this. There shouldn't be an instance where an AI CONTROLLED PET does more burst in one hit than the most damaging player abilities in game. I don't give a damn how hard it is to land.

Power rev remains as one of the most overtuned (in the right situations) spec ever introduced. I might get some flak by saying this but being weak to condis doesn't mean a class with so many defenses and utility built into their offense is balanced. I hope they never get buffed.

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @GenerationX.9178 said:

> > > According to the wiki the damage on skill is 3,865.

> > That's literally 3 times the base damage of gravedigger.

> >

> > That can't be right

> >

> >

>

> Why not? It's on double the CD GD has if it hits a target above 50% health, GD can also recharge instantly and is 3 whirl finishers, the gazelle only has 1661 power, it takes longer to cast, it cannot track moving foes, rarely hits anything and it not able to be specifically controlled by the Ranger. I can do 20k hits all day on bosses with Gravedigger, I won't speak to the ability in PvP as I have no experience with it there.

>

> It is bugged in that it hits downed foes multiple times which gives the largest numbers, but you have to fully spec into the pet for it to be able to do 15-20k hits and it's not a good build to do that because of how unreliable they are and how easily they die.

yeah! why not? for the next expansion let's put a nuclear warhead ability for a random class. it has 5% chance of hitting but it immediately kills anyone in the map. That would be balanced!

Also give it like a 10 min cooldown for further balancing.

I can't believe silent killer thinks scourge is somehow fine because necros have arguably been 'weak' in the past.

you know what I don't get, the fact that both of these problematic specs (SB and scourge) weren't even designed with PVE in mind. Spellbreaker is obvious and about Scourge I don't think in PVE you have tons of boons to corrupt constantly, not even in raids afaik, coupled with the most ineffective condition for pve (torment) AND YET THEY'RE SOMEHOW INCREDIBLY BROKEN AGAINST ACTUAL PLAYERS.

How? I honestly don't get it. It's not like Deadeye where buffing in pve would break it on pvp and viceversa, or Holosmith. _These specs were made for pvp_, and they managed to become incredibly over the top to the point of draining the fun out of the game.

8 (6.5) seconds for an aoe counter of the size of the node that does everything except maybe stealth. Literal AOE spam on small nodes (people DID complain a lot about DH and their traps taking entire points) on scourge that does **not** encourage smart play from the necros... what have we learned from HoT?

I was lucky to hook my one man guild with an expanded treasure trove back in the day. If I wanted to do that right now it would simply not be possible.