Blaeys.3102

The reward structure is fairly obvious. First, yes (1000X yes), they should be significantly lower than regular raid rewards.

The reward should be similar to a world boss in terms of possible gear drops (so blues and greens, with a small chance at an exotic and an extremely miniscule chance at a vanilla ascended). Additionally, there should be a minimum number of magnetite shards rewarded - probably about 1/4 what a raid encounter drops now. The caveat is - no unique raid skins (including weapons, minis, the portal device, even titles) should drop at easier modes and they should remain locked on the vendor until the associative encounter is beaten in regular mode (so no way whatsoever to get the Gorseval staff without beating the current iteration of Gorseval).

What this does is offer a minimal reward - and give people looking to get into raids a secondary guaranteed (albeit glacially slow) path to earning vanilla ascended gear (again, no unique skins). This would serve to offer both a lower difficulty level and support higher levels of raiding by letting players who absolutely hate crafting gradually (crazy slow) build an ascended raiding set. Finally, it would retain the integrity and prestige of higher tier raiding by ensuring the skins/titles/minis (yes, even minis) are only earnable through the hard mode.

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

>

> Which brings us back to the _original_ problem! (Running in circles for 106 pages, yaaaay!)

>

> If the rewards are bad people will do the easy mode once, at best. Maybe lure in some veterans when Anet adds achievements to it.

> If the rewards are good/better compared to the regular raids than you end up cannibalizing those which means

>

> no boss tokens

> no Legendary Insights/Divinations

>

Which really serves to only prove that - for a large group - repeatablility (for all parts of the game) are tied to reward rather than content. It stands to reason, then, that we should separate the discussions. If the goal is to have people repeat content, all they need to do is provide desirable rewards (which can still be tiered - as they are across the game now).

At the same time, we have to gauge the "fun" aspect of content separate from whether or not it is repeated (because, again, for many, that is tied to reward, not the actual content). And, the Wintersday 10 man instance is fun - just as a raid encounter is fun. If you build out either and want repeatability, you simply use rewards (which, again, do not have to mirror one another and can be tiered based on prestige) to accomplish that.

Once you have that combination of fun+incentive, you have a successful model that makes the game stronger. Adding tiers to the content widens the audience and justifies greater investment/integration with the story/etc - making it a win/win for everyone, including hardcore raiders (it would have justified including a more difficult version of the Wintersday fight, for example).

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

I think the new Wintersday instance does show that easy mode raids would be both popular and valid, but I - unfortunately - doubt this is the thinking at Arenanet. They have made it clear that the company is suffering from a lack of development resources (most recently illustrated by yet another delay for open world content), so raids in general have to fall down the priority list.

That said, if they ever do free up resources to do something more with raids, I think this "mini raid" offers them valuable data and information on the direction they should take. An easy mode raid would work (because it is working in game right now with this instance) and it would be something they could keep active alongside the current raid versions (with the proper resources, of course).

Now, it could have been an internal test to see how much they could realistically do in this direction with the resources they have - but, again, giving the delays with living stories, I would think they would look at others areas to improve first.

Definitely fun content and worth playing if you haven't already (and even worth replaying if you have).

IMO, it does pretty much invalidate the long standing strawman argument that an easier raid mode wouldn't be fun or of interest to players. If the resources ever do free up to do something more with existing raids, I hope this is the direction they take.

I also find it interesting that people are in this thread asking for a harder version of this fight (basically the exact same model - just for a different reason - that many of us have been advocating for in existing raid content) - something I would wholeheartedly support if the resources existed. The key to keeping this kind of content (and raids proper) relevant and worth the investment long term is tiered difficulty levels - opening the experience to a wider audience of players spanning from casual to hardcore.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Joseph Clark II.3425" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > When you draw the Binding of Ipos, for a little bit you hear strange otherworldy mutterings and noises. Is it possible I could get some more insight into what's going on with this sound effect? It's spooky and I'd love to know if there are any words that can be made out.

> >

> > Hey, mortrialus!

> >

> > I _did_ design this weapon to have some otherworldly spooks that trail off after drawing. I am sorry to disappoint, but there aren't any hidden messages in the spooks... just some breathy demonic groans and gurgles. SAG would be kicking down my door if I had any words in there. ;)

> >

> > I wanted to give the book a Necronomicon/Evil Dead kind of vibe. I'm glad you found it... _groovy_. B)

>

> Thanks for the answer! I loved it and since I tend to play with the music at max volumed and everything else balanced a bit below it, it was super spooky at first because I thought I was hearing things and then I turned all the music down and was like "Woah!!"

You do realize if there really is a hidden message there, he isn't likely to admit to it, right ;) .

Not to be a broken record here (or maybe to be exactly that :) ), but how easy (and fun) would it have been to simply add a guild mission tied to the new roller beetle races? They wouldn't have even needed to add anything really new - just give us a mission similar to those listed for WVW or PVP that read - "Complete one roller beetle race in XYZ map - at least 3 guildmembers must participate to qualify."

Not only would that keep the roller beetle races relevant and populated long term (because, let's be honest - they will likely be really popular for about a month and then just be something people rarely do), but it would also help revitalize guild missions and give guilds something more to do together.

Obviously this could be done for more than just roller beetle races - it is just hard to see them add something like this to the game and not daydream about what it could have meant for the (now long abandoned) guild aspect of the game.

If you think someone steps over the line between civil and uncivil, whether they are using a DPS meter or not, definitely lodge a report. It isn't necessarily about the meter - its about treating someone like an actual human being instead of a bunch of numbers on a screen.

If you invite someone into a publicized pug group and you haven't set parameters up front, they have every expectation that you will treat them with just a little respect - and that you wont publicly call them out like the example in the OP. If you choose to be hateful (meter or not), then you deserve to be reported.

Reality is, most of the people who engage in that kind of public shaming are likely there looking for an excuse to do so from the beginning. Often, people like that have to find a reason to feel superior - and games/meters give them all the excuse they feel they need. There is a right and a wrong way to evaluate/make revisions to a group.

Treat people civilly and expect the same from them in return. It really is that simple.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

>

> I'm willing to bet that the vast majority didn't even read what the OP posted and instead answered based on the simple question: "should we make things easier?" It's not even hard to know this based simply on the responses we got afterwards. Then they went to their guild mates to come vote on this thread. It's a real no brainer when there is a question about making things easier that players will come and vote about because they love the shinnies.

A few posts ago, you argued that the question was "blind" or misleading in some way - but when I point out that the question was, in fact detailed and pretty thorough, your response was to change to "no one reads it anyway."

And, even then, you still insist on paraphrasing the question to make it seem simpler or more misleading.

The numbers are there. I know they aren't what many want to see, but there they are.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

>

> It's a poll on a game forum asking "do you want this to be easier?" That by itself is extremely biased. There is nothing well defined about the poll options.

Except, that is not the question that was asked - and, by paraphrasing, you are using a slightly misleading debate tactic similar to the one you used in the previous response. A strawman argument is where you change the parameters or try to use a seemingly related example (that is, in fact, total different) to make it easier to argue against something - rather than arguing against a point directly.

The OP went to great length to define what was meant by the question - and the question itself was worded in a way that was far less biased than the example you give above - which, again, is not how the question was asked at all.

The question is straightforward. The numbers are there. I realize they are not what many on these forums wanted to see, but they are miraculously still there despite anyone (probably including devs) wishing them away.

Continue to argue pros and cons of the topic, but the idea that these numbers are in some way meaningless or communicate something other than a desire for an easier mode alongside what we have now - after almost a year on a subforum dedicated exclusively to raiding, dungeons and fractals - is not really debatable.

Not sure what is blind about the poll. The options seem well defined.

Trying to argue it away with strawman fallacies (and yes, that term applies here) wont make the numbers go away.

Of course, continuing the debate and discussion is healthy, but I think it is important that Anet see these numbers and what they represent. If additional resources ever do become available for further raid development, the (albeit slight) majority of those willing to respond on this subforum see value in moving to a more tiered difficulty model that includes a more casual experience alongside one for harder core players.

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

> >

> > Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

> >

> > People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

>

> Which are quite questionable since only a small amount of players are active here.

> I would be far more interessed in an actual poll from anet, with a notification ingame about that poll so we can for the love of god have solid numbers for anything. 99% of this forums numbers or meassurements are pure speculation. Basing anything on it, being easy mode raids, new meta, the halloween event impression or whatever, is not really a solid argument and i would highly question it if anet would actual base deccisions on such small, unrepresantive polls.

>

The poll is almost a year old - more than enough time to garner the number of responses it has received. And while it is based on a limited sample size, I think it is probably statistically relevant.

Regardless, it has been here long enough and garnered enough responses to warrant attention, even if action is unrealistic due to resources. It shows that, among those who care enough to express an opinion, there is a significant percentage (more than 3/4) interested in something beyond what we have now with more than half of total respondents interested in a more casual experience in the game mode. Again, the community can continue to discuss related points and details. but the numbers are there and pretty clear.

As an update - according to this poll (which is probably the most responded too poll ever in these forums), more than 2/3 of the respondents feel raids need work, with 57 percent (as of today) advocating for the inclusion of easier modes.

Again, it isn't likely to happen for a number of reasons (developer reticience, lack of resources, requiring a philosophical change at Anet), but it is interesting to see that, even here on the raiding subforum (where you can assume there are fewer non-raiders visiting), the numbers are that heavily in favor of that kind of change.

People (the same 2-3 that always do) can argue with that all they want, but the numbers are there for anyone who bothers to actually see them.

One I found that needs to be added:

Boxing Gloves Costume Brawl Toy

OP, bringing up this topic on this subforum will result in attacks from some of the more ardent forumgoers (which we are already seeing), but know that, based on the survey on these same sub-forums, more than half of the respondents agree with your point of view on this one.

That said, the argument is moot at this point. The resources do not exist to alter how raids are in game - and without alterations like the you mention (which would broaden the target audience for raids and justify more resources), they will always remain niche - creating a Catch-22 scenario where nothing gets improved.

Balthazar with the greatsword as the new weapon.

Yes I have. horrible the last 3 days. US East Coast in Western NC.

In an ideal world, the answer here is the same answer they could use to address the accessibility level issue in raids - develop story and challenge motes gamewide, opening up new options for all types of players. They could even do this with open world content through the guild event flag.

Reality though - it would take a good deal of work which they likely dont have the resources for now.

I still love this game a lot, but it does feel like it is fragmenting into separate stand alone games and communities based around this very topic.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> An odd choice for a raid subject at this point. Thought they might try and tie in with PoF/LS4 themes

There are well discussed reasons why they cannot do this.

Raids have to be a stand alone game element with minimal, almost non-existent story or else they risk becoming semi-mandatory for story-focused players - a group they have specifically stated are not a target audience for the GW2 version of raids.

They basically have to be treated as a separate game within the game.

As with a lot of what we have seen from the Anet marketing team in the past, the idea seems sound on paper, but the execution wasn't really thought out.

Anyone experienced in this kind of marketing communication will tell you that the first thing you do with app-centric programs is make sure you have the bandwidth and support to handle the inevitable flood of new people looking for something free.

I like that Anet is exploring creative ways to monetize and support the game, but they really do need to think these things through more than they did with this - or with some of the other "cool stunts" they've tried to do in the past.

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> While saving up my stuff, i noticed that the executioner's axe isn't getting saved... Won't Costume brawl items like that be added, or will they be added with the tonics (since it kinda works like some tonics).

Noticed this right away. It doesn't look like any of the costume brawl toys (witch's broom, executioner's axe, pirate sword, boxing gloves, etc) made the cut.

Great update and I see a lot of people having fun - but this does seem like a little bit of an oversight.

Im guessing (hoping) it is because they are considered tonics and will be included in that addition.

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Blaeys.3102" said:

> > b. The resources do not exist to even get living story and open world (both of which are designed for the community as a whole) out in a timely manner.

>

> I believe Anet is just horrible in using their resources instead of not having them. Part of that might be their broken spaghetti code and all but it is their fault that it is the way it is anyway, so I am not taking that as an excuse. As a multi million dollar business they definitely will not get any empathy from me for their own mistakes.

Either way, the end result is the same. The resources required to bring raids in line with, or even close to, what we see in other games are not there - and even if they were, there are other areas of the game that need more attention right now.

a. Raids are side content that, in the developers' own statements, are designed for a smaller percentage of players. They have indicated they have no interest in changing that.

b. The resources do not exist to even get living story and open world (both of which are designed for the community as a whole) out in a timely manner.

c. Any new resources would logically need to be dedicated to open world - there is even an argument to be made for moving some of the existing raid/fractal resources to that content to improve its pacing/quality.

d. Even the raids that they are putting out now are typically completed for the first time a few hours after they are released and by most serious raiders within a few day. By trying to split the difficulty/engagement difference for the group they do target, they have to water them down to the point of making them nothing more than a short math problem.

Since the very beginning, a small group of us on these forums have made the point that as long as raid design is geared toward such a small subsegment of the playerbase, they wont be able to justify the resources to maintain the pacing that would appeal to raiders from other games (especially WOW, where raids are considered integral to the story/progression/playtime). And, without that pacing (which would be majorly unrealistic in this game), interest in raids, even from the hardcore raiders, will diminish significantly over time.

They even took the step of adding exclusive legendary armor to try and force interest from more people - and, while it worked for a period, it eventually became just another grind (people buying raids/achievements - rather than playing the content - to complete).

Raids, in there current form, are what we are all stuck with for the foreseeable future. And, given Anet's track record with other subeset focused content like this in the past (ever-changing living world, guild missions, esports, legendary weapon quests, etc), I think there is real potential new development in that area could (maybe even should)eventually just go away altogether.

I did it on my healing engineer with a mix of clerics and viper's gear. Basically, I just dodged/blocked/healed through the early phases and burned him down with condis after the two breaks.

Organizing and beating the Marionette back in season one. It was pre mega server and my server was less populated than most. A few other guild leaders and I got together and decided to see if we could make it happen. We still talk about beating it with our rag tag group of adventurers. It was fun and engaging.

The beauty and value in this game will always be in the big open world events. It really is what sets it apart from other MMOs.

> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> Standard Full Daily 3x Fractal T4s Runs -> 30 mins, worst case scenario -> 1 hour

> Standard Full 99CM + 100CM Clears -> 30 mins, worst case scenario -> 1 hour

> Standard Full Raid Clear w1-4 -> 3 hours, worst case scenario -> 4 hours

> Standard Full Raid Clear w5 -> 2 hours, worst case scenario -> 3 hours

>

> Daily 3x Fractal T4s = 10% Of the entire gw2 community

> Fractal 99CM = 5% Of the entire gw2 community

> Fractal 100CM = 5% Of the entire gw2 community

> Raid Clear w1-4 = 3% Of the entire gw2 community

> Raid Clear w5 = 2% Of the entire gw2 community

> Personal Comments:

> I'm in several pretty average guilds. About 30-40 members each of which about 10 frequently use ts (per guild). When we're running fractals, most of the time no more than 5 people are interested at all and among those 5 about 2 don't have the required agony resistance for T4. My estimate of 10% is propably still too high because only players who are somewhat invested in the game join an active guild, so the numbers in your average guild end up higher than the numbers for the entire gw2 community.

>

> While we do raid once a weak in two of my guilds, we are far from completing every raid wing and even further from doing so within 4 hours. I believe this reflects the status of most casual guilds that run raids. If they run raids at all, that is. Without a guild, getting into raids is very difficult since pug groups require at least 150 LI and starting their own groups is a hurdle only few are willing to tackle. Not to mention the abyssmal success-rate of low-LI groups.

>

> Edit: Here are a few graphs to support my numbers:

> https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.fractalLevel

> Only 20% of players registered at gw2efficiency have reached fractal level 100.

> https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights

> Only 10% of players registered at gw2efficiency have enough legendary insights to join a pug group for any raid (besides escort).

> https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.gaetingCrystals

> Only 10% of players registered at gw2efficiency have killed a single boss in w5.

>

> Since only players who are somewhat engaged in the game create a gw2efficiency account, it is safe to assume that these numbers are higher than the gw2 average.

Interestingly enough, these numbers match up well with what I see anecdotally in my guild. On average, I see between30-40 players logging on daily, with about 150-200 logging in weekly. Of those, about 12-13 raid on a regular basis ever week. I know of three that complete all raid wings, with another 2 or 3 completing just the first 4 wings. About 7-10 complete t4 fractals dailies on a regular basis.

To extend further, I see 5-10 members maxing out WvW rewards weekly and about 20-25 doing all of their daily achievements each day. Between 15-30 do guild missions every week. I only see one who does pvp regularly.

Again, these are anecdotal numbers - and I'm not saying my guild is indicative of the game as a whole. Still, the number of players show raids are - as the developers have predicted and pretty much said they want - one of the least played parts of the game by a pretty significant margin (not as bad as pvp though).