KryTiKaL.3125

Unfortunately it can be difficult to have fun in sPvP when people are actively trying to sabotage the experience, or they just make the entire thing generally unfun through either behavior, actions or otherwise. I'd rather suffer through Fortnite than play GW2 which is exactly why I uninstalled GW2, because I would rather not erode my sanity to the extent that I would *actually* play Fortnite.

> @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > You can like GW2, that is entirely fine and I won't challenge you on that because it suits your tastes, but I feel there needs to be at least *some* recognition that their "approach" has flaws. Flaws, mind you, that resulted in 143 employees being let go all at once, the game director Mike Z leaving and there still being no acknowledgement of it, and Mike O having completely left with other veteran ANet devs to form another company. Granted devs moving on or leaving to other companies are a norm in the industry, but *these things* are something else. > Please stop with the falsehood that GW2 was responsible for the layoffs. This has been disproven. > Mhmm and that certainly wasn't indicative of a broader spanning issue in regards to ANet and its performance or handling of the product in the region in recent years in the eyes of NCSoft and ANets future as a studio. Thats certainly not what happened here either...  I apologize for the sarcasm, but companies like NCSoft tend to follow patterns, especially when it comes to the optics around these things. I'm not trying to be a doomsayer, even if it very much sounds like it, but I mean...c'mon...you don't layoff 143 employees by saying "part of a larger organizational restructuring within NCSoft in the West" when ANet is quite literally the only NCSoft subsidiary in the West, yet things are apparently "going well" internally over there with handling this game.

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > The scope has been a mess and thats because you havent set a clear plan for how Gw2 is going to stay relevant and evolve and grow for years to come. > > > > > > > > > > Arenanet isn't a company that does it like it is supposed to be done. They have never been that way. If you've been with us for longer you should have known that. It started a long time ago with the gw1 campaigns that went to an expansion and gw2 and the ongoing changes to the living world. > > > Arenanet isn't using proofed business models like other bigger companies. They do it their own way. The result is a game that has been refreshing and renewing the genre. It was Arenanet that started the titles and achievement system. The first without monthly fees and still presented a big game where you can spent a lifetime online. The first to say goodbye to the trinity. Etc. > > > To be innovative you need trial and error. It means they constantly try to improve the release schedule. > > > > > > > I feel like there needs to be some correction here. > > > > "It was Arenanet that started the titles and achievement system." > > > > WoW literally did both of those things before GW2 did. WoW released their Achievements system in 2008, which also enabled more and more titles to be earned. There were also several MMOs, still with fairly large worlds to spend a lot of time in, that were F2P (Maplestory, Ragnarok Online, Perfect World) or that didn't require a Subscription. They weren't *massively* popular, but they still existed and some were very P2W, but then there were others that just didn't have the pull other brands had. > > > > But guess what? ANet might have been "innovative" to some extent and challenged the status quo with GW2, but 8 years later two of the most successful MMOs still use subscriptions and they both maintain better player retention and a larger active playerbase than GW2 does. > > > > You can like GW2, that is entirely fine and I won't challenge you on that because it suits your tastes, but I feel there needs to be at least *some* recognition that their "approach" has flaws. Flaws, mind you, that resulted in 143 employees being let go all at once, the game director Mike Z leaving and there still being no acknowledgement of it, and Mike O having completely left with other veteran ANet devs to form another company. Granted devs moving on or leaving to other companies are a norm in the industry, but *these things* are something else. > > Ok, you have just proven my point and want GW2 to be just like WoW. Make sure to get your facts right. Arenanet released a title system in gw1 factions in 2006. As it offered a way to fill the gap between releases it attacked players from other games in such a way that blizzard hasted to add a similar system to WoW. > It is ok to like WoW and I understand it suits your tasting..... wait, just read your own post again with the knowledge that you did not successfully corrected me, but made a fool of yourself by proving the exact point why it is good arenanet does not follow in blizzards footsteps. More likely the other way around. I assumed you were referencing GW2 only, so then yes GW1 did implement a form of system for that. However, that doesn't negate the flaws with ANet as a company and how things have been handled. To clarify, I never said nor implied that I would want GW2 to be just like WoW, I actually like parts of GW2 that are very, very different to WoW (the combat mechanics being a significant one)...but there are plenty of things with the game that I can no longer really overlook as "forgivable" issues, especially when it comes to the direction ANet has gone. You can boast about how ANet does things "so differently" and that they "do it their own way" and you personally believe that to be a good thing, and I would agree with that. I even said that they definitely challenged the status quo of the genre with GW2, and even GW1 to some extents, but also at the same time...I have been with this franchise since the start of GW1 and ANet 100% is nowhere near the kind of company it used to be. Maybe if the original developers of GW2 and GW1 were still around that might be different, but that isn't the case and it **shows**. I think ANet honestly became victims of their own ego, and their own hype. I still think GW2 is an okay game, but I'm also not just going to ignore these problems that they won't even communicate with their community about, nor should anyone. Like the game, but just be aware that criticism is okay and ANet certainly needs it more often than not. Where would FFXIV be if its community were not vocal about the issues with the game when it first released? Thats why it got the A Realm Reborn re-release and it did exponentially better than it would have had they not listened. Now I'm not saying they should *completely* redo GW2, its just an example of why ANets approach to essentially ignoring the ever-living out of their community is a poor one; and they really do it that way because boo hoo they got criticism about things with the game and they didn't like it. Thats really what that boils down to...and its kind of sad. Players explaining that dungeons are worthless, have been worthless and have continued to be worthless is an exaggerated albeit honestly fair criticism...yet ANet still ditched them entirely and were like "**Here** Fractals" rather than, y'know, iterate...as devs normally do especially in a game where *they scale your level* in that kind of content. So you're right, its not WoW where Ragefire Chasm ceases to be relevant once you level beyond like...20, whereas with GW2 pretty much all of the Dungeons *could* be relevant to the general gameplay loop...except they don't offer anything, not even a challenge.

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > The scope has been a mess and thats because you havent set a clear plan for how Gw2 is going to stay relevant and evolve and grow for years to come. > > > > Arenanet isn't a company that does it like it is supposed to be done. They have never been that way. If you've been with us for longer you should have known that. It started a long time ago with the gw1 campaigns that went to an expansion and gw2 and the ongoing changes to the living world. > Arenanet isn't using proofed business models like other bigger companies. They do it their own way. The result is a game that has been refreshing and renewing the genre. It was Arenanet that started the titles and achievement system. The first without monthly fees and still presented a big game where you can spent a lifetime online. The first to say goodbye to the trinity. Etc. > To be innovative you need trial and error. It means they constantly try to improve the release schedule. > I feel like there needs to be some correction here. "It was Arenanet that started the titles and achievement system." WoW literally did both of those things before GW2 did. WoW released their Achievements system in 2008, which also enabled more and more titles to be earned. There were also several MMOs, still with fairly large worlds to spend a lot of time in, that were F2P (Maplestory, Ragnarok Online, Perfect World) or that didn't require a Subscription. They weren't *massively* popular, but they still existed and some were very P2W, but then there were others that just didn't have the pull other brands had. But guess what? ANet might have been "innovative" to some extent and challenged the status quo with GW2, but 8 years later two of the most successful MMOs still use subscriptions and they both maintain better player retention and a larger active playerbase than GW2 does. You can like GW2, that is entirely fine and I won't challenge you on that because it suits your tastes, but I feel there needs to be at least *some* recognition that their "approach" has flaws. Flaws, mind you, that resulted in 143 employees being let go all at once, the game director Mike Z leaving and there still being no acknowledgement of it, and Mike O having completely left with other veteran ANet devs to form another company. Granted devs moving on or leaving to other companies are a norm in the industry, but *these things* are something else.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view. > > This from someone that got so offended by me saying that GW2 outlived most of its competition in my original comment that he had to misconstrue my whole argument by putting words into my mouth. Anet really has permanent residency in your head. > > I agree we can‘t have a constructive discussion. There‘s no point arguing when you fault Anet for things you personally believe are bad (when the same things literally happen in the same other games you play, yet for some reason it‘s fine there), but don‘t really matter for the game at all. Only a small fraction of the playerbase cares about the game director not being announced. I‘m not even sure if you can call them part of the playerbase, as they‘re not even playing anymore, just being doomers because they can‘t let go. Just face that you aren‘t the target audience, it‘s not that hard. Changing the whole game around to match your personal vision is not something Anet will do. They‘re here to earn money by creating a product that appeals to many, not a singular person. The game is still doing fine and has a future, even if you don‘t want to realize that. > > Edit: It‘s actually so funny to see you try to attribute different content to „casual“ play. Your horizontal progression = makes the game more casual argument is still so wrong. What would you call someone like Asmongold? He doesn‘t really play competitively, doesn‘t really speed through content etc., yet he‘s one of the people I‘d actually call „hardcore“, as he created his whole life and career around WoW. > Sorry, but I don‘t think consider min/maxxers or people speeding through content „hardcore“. Everyone can follow a guide. The people creating the guide? Those might be the actual hardcore people, the ones doing the number crunching. > Most self-proclaimed „hardcore“ players aren‘t hardcore at all. They‘re easy to spot, too. Alright, well if you can't seem to cease from being vitriolic and have a constructive conversation because you took some apparent extreme offense at me simply, and calmly, pointing out something you said that I felt wasn't entirely accurate. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day/night and that you continue to enjoy GW2.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales. > > > > > > > > > Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. **Runescape**, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it **does** have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living? > > > > > > > Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived. > > > > > > > I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark. > > > > > > > And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily. > > > > > > > > > > > > But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to *revolutionize* the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs *seem* like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication. > > > > > > > > > > Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post. > > > > > Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game. > > > > > Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse. > > > > > > > > > > Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite. > > > > > > > > > > For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience? > > > > > > > > > > I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug > > > > > > > > Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine. > > > > > > > > Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at *least* decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can *earn* ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that. > > > > > > > > GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least **communication** from the company on it, but they don't even do that. > > > > > > > > Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG. > > > > > > Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games. > > > > > > I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those. > > > > > > People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill. > > > > > > Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG. > > > > My definition of casual is not "averse to gearing/character progression" that was how I defined GW2's "hardcore casual" or casual playerbase due to how they react to and view any form of gear progression or gear treadmill, this is specifically in the context of GW2. A casual player in WoW likely doesn't share those same views towards that kind of content or system. Your response seems like a misconstrued interpretation of what I *actually* said by generalizing it to everything. > > > > If I didn't agree with you on GW2 not fulfilling my criteria for a game I enjoy then I wouldn't have uninstalled. However, that doesn't negate the issues that do exist outside of personal preference being an issue. ANet still has abysmal policy when it comes to communicating with the community, they still abandon PvE content and just leave it in the game rather than rework it to become more relevant or just remove it to get rid of some of the bloat, PvP/WvW continue to lose population due to neglect, Gem Store skins continue to outweigh most earnable ingame skins in terms of visuals, there are still practically no earnable ingame mount skins, no earnable ingame chair skins, and more and more. If you're okay with the direction they have gone, thats fine, then we just have to agree to disagree, but I wholeheartedly believe that you shouldn't just ignore the issues that *do* exist with how they have been managing things. They have an expansion on the horizon and their careers page still lists that they are hiring a game director and still have yet to acknowledge that Mike Z left **last year** and we heard nothing about it or a new game director or anything. That should be *concerning* to this community. > > > > If that happened with any other MMORPG, any other game for that matter, you can be sure that if they didn't say anything about that sort of big shift in leadership then their communities would be raising hell. Imagine if, for WoW, Ion Hazzikostas stepped down from his position and nothing was said by him or Blizzard and they still had an open vacancy for that position for *months*? For some reason this community just lets ANet coast and get away with things as significant as that. Thats why my posts probably seem mostly negative or "hateful" of the company, because unfortunately there are some vocal individuals here that will **adamantly** and without question defend ANet and not hold them accountable for the mistakes and poor decisions they make. > > > > Also Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter *as well as* an MMORPG. They have literally defined it as such back in 2019. > > Ah, so you're changing the definition of casual how you please. That means I don't have to pay attention to your definitions, since they are biased and mean nothing then. > Big shocker that a GW2 player prefers horizontal progression. Horizontal progression has been here since GW1. It's a design choice that attracts players. > If I want PvP out of a game, I'm not going to play a PvE game, or are those PvE people in a PvE game casual for their averse reaction if you want to introduce PvP? > If I play a car racing game I'm not suddenly going to call those people "casual" because they are averse to use boats in a game designed around cars. Your definition of casual here is completely arbitrary and nonsensical. > > So you'd prefer it if Anet just simply did it the Riot way? Remove gamemodes to get rid of the bloat? No thank you. PvP/WvW will continue to be neglected because they lack players, just like Dominion and TT did. I mean, do you still see people use Garrisons in WoW? Every old raid and dungeon in WoW could be classified as "bloat". Removing them would still be a mistake. Anet aren't the first ones that abandon content, and they won't be the last. > > Yeah, they have an expansion on the horizon with a plan. Why should not having news about a game director be concerning to this community when content still steadily releases? Because you said so? You may care, but I bet most do not as long as the game keeps releasing content, which it does. > > Ah yes, the community uproars that matter. The scandals at Riot sure did a lot to hurt LoL! What? No one cares about the Hearthstone controversy anymore? Hell, I'd have to look up most game directors of the games I play. You may not like it, but I bet most don't care about stuff like that, they just want to play a good game. It's really strange how there's so many vocal individuals here that will keep on hating on the game for reasons that don't actually matter, years after they've uninstalled. It's like Anet is living in their head rent free. > > Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG. Might as well call Battlefield and every BR out there a MMO. > > So yeah, I agree to disagree with most of your points as they seem to stem from not being part of the target audience and personal bias. First off, no I'm not changing the definition of casual as I please...that literally is not anywhere remotely what I said. The way a casual plays varies depending on which game you're playing because most of these games play differently or have different mechanics associated with them so context is important. It doesn't boil down to "casual gamers don't like gear progression" as you initially generalized or thought I was saying. Playing casually typically means not playing competitively or in some cases not "speeding" through content or "min/maxing". A casual WoW player for instance is likely not doing high Mythic+ runs or doing Ranked Arenas when they log on but they are likely running dungeons normally, doing world quests and even gearing up over time at a more leisurely pace compared to a more "hardcore" player; in contrast a casual GW2 player likely isn't going too deep into Fractals, they are likely not touching Raids in almost any capacity and they'll probably stop "gearing" when they hit Ascended gear, they also are probably only doing Unranked sPvP if they even touch it at all and if they do WvW its probably just for the dailies if thats where they are that day. So there *is* a difference depending on the game. Also yes, GW2 players do prefer horizontal progression and it has been here since GW1 (I'd argue GW1 did it better), and GW2 is a much more heavily casual MMORPG than most others because of these things when being compared to them. Again, not a *bad* thing. As for lacking a game director that is literally a position of leadership in the company that directs the game, hence the name of the position. They monitor the budget, schedule and progress of a product. The fact that they lack one makes sense considering the paused Steam release and focus on the expansion (which is a good thing). As for it being a "scandal" I'm not sure I would rate it there with things like Hearthstone or anything at LoL, I wouldn't even call it a "scandal" but a gross misstep in management and community management/communication in not informing the playerbase of these things which can be indicative of how things at ANet are being run (or not run by some classifications). Also you'd be surprised as to what constant community "uproar" can do to try and make sure things are done well enough in a game, that problems are brought to the attention of the devs and allow them to handle it. Blizzard at the very least has done a decent bit of that in the ramp up to the next expansion release, taking feedback from the community and content creators and applying it so that certain things get adjusted to be better or work better. You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales. > > > > > > > Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China. > > > > > > > > > > > > Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. **Runescape**, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it **does** have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game. > > > > > > > > > > So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living? > > > > > Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived. > > > > > I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games. > > > > > > > > > > Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark. > > > > > And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2. > > > > > > > > The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post. > > > > > > > > Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily. > > > > > > > > But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition. > > > > > > > > Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to *revolutionize* the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs *seem* like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication. > > > > > > Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post. > > > Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game. > > > Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse. > > > > > > Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite. > > > > > > For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience? > > > > > > I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug > > > > Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine. > > > > Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at *least* decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can *earn* ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that. > > > > GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least **communication** from the company on it, but they don't even do that. > > > > Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG. > > Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games. > > I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those. > > People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill. > > Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG. My definition of casual is not "averse to gearing/character progression" that was how I defined GW2's "hardcore casual" or casual playerbase due to how they react to and view any form of gear progression or gear treadmill, this is specifically in the context of GW2. A casual player in WoW likely doesn't share those same views towards that kind of content or system. Your response seems like a misconstrued interpretation of what I *actually* said by generalizing it to everything. If I didn't agree with you on GW2 not fulfilling my criteria for a game I enjoy then I wouldn't have uninstalled. However, that doesn't negate the issues that do exist outside of personal preference being an issue. ANet still has abysmal policy when it comes to communicating with the community, they still abandon PvE content and just leave it in the game rather than rework it to become more relevant or just remove it to get rid of some of the bloat, PvP/WvW continue to lose population due to neglect, Gem Store skins continue to outweigh most earnable ingame skins in terms of visuals, there are still practically no earnable ingame mount skins, no earnable ingame chair skins, and more and more. If you're okay with the direction they have gone, thats fine, then we just have to agree to disagree, but I wholeheartedly believe that you shouldn't just ignore the issues that *do* exist with how they have been managing things. They have an expansion on the horizon and their careers page still lists that they are hiring a game director and still have yet to acknowledge that Mike Z left **last year** and we heard nothing about it or a new game director or anything. That should be *concerning* to this community. If that happened with any other MMORPG, any other game for that matter, you can be sure that if they didn't say anything about that sort of big shift in leadership then their communities would be raising hell. Imagine if, for WoW, Ion Hazzikostas stepped down from his position and nothing was said by him or Blizzard and they still had an open vacancy for that position for *months*? For some reason this community just lets ANet coast and get away with things as significant as that. Thats why my posts probably seem mostly negative or "hateful" of the company, because unfortunately there are some vocal individuals here that will **adamantly** and without question defend ANet and not hold them accountable for the mistakes and poor decisions they make. Also Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter *as well as* an MMORPG. They have literally defined it as such back in 2019.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less. > > > > > > > > > > In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > > > > > > Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales. > > > > > Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China. > > > > > > > > Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. **Runescape**, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2. > > > > > > > > Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it **does** have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game. > > > > > > So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living? > > > Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived. > > > I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games. > > > > > > Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark. > > > And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2. > > > > The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post. > > > > Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily. > > > > But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition. > > > > Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to *revolutionize* the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs *seem* like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication. > > Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post. > Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game. > Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse. > > Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite. > > For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience? > > I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine. Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at *least* decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can *earn* ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that. GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least **communication** from the company on it, but they don't even do that. Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > > > > You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world. > > > > > > > > Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less. > > > > > > In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > > Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales. > > > Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China. > > > > Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. **Runescape**, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2. > > > > Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it **does** have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game. > > So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living? > Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived. > I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games. > > Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark. > And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2. The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post. Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily. But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition. Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to *revolutionize* the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs *seem* like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > > > > > > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game? > > > > > > > > https://gyazo.com/7c04627da02a77ffc38f65d04853cae2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of. > > > > > > > > > > > > You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time. > > > > > > > > > > This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple. > > > > > > > > > > You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter. > > > > > > > > Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one? > > > > > > > > It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event. > > > > > > > > E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward. > > > > > > You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates. > > > > > > Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world. > > > > Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less. > > In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ > > Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales. > Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China. Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population. **Runescape**, and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2. Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it **does** have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.> @"Rukia.4802" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Rukia.4802" said: > > > 1 recognized (?) pvp mode > > > > > > Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team. > > > > Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison. > > > > Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events. > > I know you are ANets biggest simp but let me get this str8. > > You think GW1 was designed purely as a pvp game, with all its great detail into the campaign modes, tons of extra zones that have nothing to do with the actual main story (prophecies alone is credibly HUGE).. a fully fleshed out lore base, elite capturing, armor and weapons, I could go on.. but you're kidding, right? It was both right from the start, only difference is GW1 succeeded because it had a competent team of developers and GW2 didn't. > > Now lets look at GW2, where you (insanely) claim that it was designed purely as a pve game and never took pvp seriously. Oh boy, I guess you weren't around when ANet really pushed legitimate e-sports with spvp. They tried hard, and failed miserably. The pvp just wasn't interesting or fun to watch, much less play. > > Just because GW1 pvp was successful along with its pve doesn't mean that it was a pvp game, but a game with great pvp. Right from the start you could choose to create a pvp character instead of pve, so why would they even bother with pve then and all that crazy amount of content it had. your claims , to put it nicely, are quite hilarious at best. Also thank you for saying this so I didn't have to. Very much so its a terrible misconception to think that GW2 was **designed** only as a PvE experience, same as it is a terrible misconception that GW1 was **designed** only as a PvP experience. It did well in **both** areas. GW2 even started out, to some extent, with that intention in mind but they had difficulties in the beginning to try and flesh out a meaningful PvE experience and even now I think they still haven't even done that. PvE in GW2 is extremely shallow...and is bloated with all these different "projects" of theirs that haven't fully panned out how they want. Dungeons don't get updated ever anymore, Fractals are stagnant with scarcely added new Fractals, Raids have even **less** being added to them, Strikes became their new baby for the PvE "endgame" but I feel like that has also fallen off and will likely get dumped soon enough, and open world is laughably easy where "spamming 1" is the extent of what you need to do for a majority of practically any mob fight. ANet dropped the ball hard on how it has handled GW2 over the years. Is it dead or dying? No. Is it a worse experience when paired against other MMOs in its assumed weight class in the genre? Yes, absolutely it is.

> @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > Is this in reference to BDO? If so, they've added far more than 2 new classes to the game. Since it launched in NA/EU in 2016, it has added 11 classes; Musa, Maehwa, Ninja, Kunoichi, Dark Knight, Striker, Mystic, Lahn, Archer, Shai and Guardian. > > > How many classes were available at launch? How many classes are available now? Sorry, I don't play BDO so I don't know and was curious. > > > > > > > On BDO's NA/EU launch there were a total of 8 classes available; Witch, Wizard, Warrior, Valkyrie, Tamer, Berserker, Sorceress and Ranger. Also I forgot one that they added **just** recently, the Hashashin. So there are a total of 20 classes available on BDO. They've added classes pretty regularly over the course of the last four years that the game has been out in NA/EU. > > Thanks. > > At GW2 launch, there were Elementalist, Necromancer, Warrior, Engineer, Ranger, Thief, Guardian and Mesmer. That's 8. Then, Revenant came to make the total 9. Now, two elite specializations for each of the 9 classes adds 18 more for a total of 27. Some may argue that elites are not "new" professions; however, when gauged against BDO's number of classes that are available to play it seems to me that GW2 is the same if not better for having more options. *Technically* sure, they could classify as different classes. Arguably, however, each Elite Spec isn't *that* different from its core class. Whereas with BDO each class is significantly different from one another. Each class also has "Awakening" weapons which is another weapon set you unlock at level 56 that expands upon playstyle. They also have "Succession" which is also unlocked at level 56 that is an upgrade to the core playstyle of the class. Players are required to choose Awakening *or* Succession, you can't have both active at the same time; you have to choose one or the other. Using Awakening gives you this other weapon you can swap between with your regular "core" weapon set during combat, so similar to GW2 except it doesn't have nearly as drastic of a cooldown (its about like a second and a half if I'm remembering correctly) and Succession doesn't give you any weapon swapping but it does give you access to upgraded skills, as well as several newer ones to use that the "core" set doesn't have. Just to note, as well, attaining level 56 in BDO is a fairly easy endeavor, the current soft cap level is 62 or 63 I believe. So for instance, Warrior starts off with Sword and Shield as their weapons, Awakening gives them Greatsword and their Succession provides the "upgraded" form of their Sword and Shield weapon set. Awakening plays differently, and has access to different skills, than Succession and of course vice versa. So if we're going by this logic that you're using for GW2, each BDO class has two differing "Specializations" that they can choose from which turns 20 classes into 40. By your logic. Also I'm curious, and I don't mean this to be in any way combative or antagonizing its just an honest question, what other MMORPGs have you played? I sometimes find it interesting to see what other peoples MMO experience is to maybe get a better gauge of their perspective.

> @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > Is this in reference to BDO? If so, they've added far more than 2 new classes to the game. Since it launched in NA/EU in 2016, it has added 11 classes; Musa, Maehwa, Ninja, Kunoichi, Dark Knight, Striker, Mystic, Lahn, Archer, Shai and Guardian. > How many classes were available at launch? How many classes are available now? Sorry, I don't play BDO so I don't know and was curious. > On BDO's NA/EU launch there were a total of 8 classes available; Witch, Wizard, Warrior, Valkyrie, Tamer, Berserker, Sorceress and Ranger. Also I forgot one that they added **just** recently, the Hashashin. So there are a total of 20 classes available on BDO. They've added classes pretty regularly over the course of the last four years that the game has been out in NA/EU.