Einlanzer.1627
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Posts posted by Einlanzer.1627
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> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This isn't complicated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > > > >
> > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> > > >
> > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> > > >
> > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
> > >
> > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
> > >
> > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
> > >
> > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
> > >
> > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
> >
> >
> > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
> >
> > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap.
> >
> > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
>
> It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor.
>
> Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value.
>
> The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts.
>
> If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get.
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This isn't complicated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > > > >
> > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> > > >
> > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> > > >
> > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
> > >
> > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
> > >
> > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
> > >
> > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
> > >
> > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
> >
> >
> > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
> >
> > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap.
> >
> > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
>
> It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor.
>
> Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value.
>
> The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts.
>
> If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get.
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This isn't complicated.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
> > > > >
> > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
> > > >
> > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
> > >
> > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor.
> > >
> > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value.
> > >
> > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts.
> > >
> > > If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get.
> >
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This isn't complicated.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
> > > > >
> > > > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
> > > >
> > > > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
> > >
> > > It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor.
> > >
> > It's technically possible, but highly unlikely. The odds are not in the player's favor that they will be ahead after 100 pulls, which is by design, because the casino wouldn't make a profit otherwise. The problem is that this design paradigm is carried into video game gambling systems, which is inappropriate. Anet makes a profit from BLK regardless of what people win or don't win out of them. In fact, making the rewards crappy is as harmful to Anet as it is to players.
> >
> Ya think? Although after 100 openings of a black lion chest you have at least 300 items of value. After a 100 pulls of a slot machine you more than likely are going to be much poorer than before you started playing.
>
> And profit is the goal for BLC keys. Why else would they sell them? And if you don't like the system, then why do you buy them and why are you arguing about it?
>
> And for the umpteenth time, it isn't gambling it is buying grab bags and therefore highly appropriate.
>
> > > Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value.
> > >
> >
> > > The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts.
> > >
> > Congratulations! You understand the problem now.
> >
> I always did understand how BLC work, I wish you did. Buying grab bags is not gambling. You are going to get something, even if it isn't something you want. Same with the BLC. That you don't understand that is baffling. There is no investment in buying grab bags and you only have yourself to blame when you do. It has nothing to do with gambling. And if you know that, then why do you keep arguing? You get something. It's not gambling. The end.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling
There are all kinds of other things that are off about this post, but it's not really worth continuing this.
-
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This isn't complicated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > > > >
> > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> > > >
> > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> > > >
> > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
> > >
> > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
> > >
> > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
> > >
> > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
> > >
> > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
> >
> >
> > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
> >
> > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap.
> >
> > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
>
> It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor.
>
> Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value.
>
> The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts.
>
> If you don't want to get what you are likely to get out of the BLC, then don't buy the keys. How easy is that? Don't blame the company that sells the keys because you got exactly what you knew you might get.
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This isn't complicated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > > > >
> > > > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> > > >
> > > > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> > > >
> > > > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
> > >
> > > It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
> > >
> > > You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
> > >
> > > You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
> > >
> > > I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
> >
> >
> > Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
> >
> > If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap.
> >
> > Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
>
> It's not splitting hairs looking at 1 or 100 pulls or openings. In 100 pulls of a slot machine you could still get nothing. Many do. Odds are NOT in the player of a slot machine's favor.
>
It's technically possible, but highly unlikely. The odds are not in the player's favor that they will be ahead after 100 pulls, which is by design, because the casino wouldn't make a profit otherwise. The problem is that this design paradigm is carried into video game gambling systems, which is inappropriate. Anet makes a profit from BLK regardless of what people win or don't win out of them. In fact, making the rewards crappy is as harmful to Anet as it is to players.
> Also, reward value is subjective with BLC drops and it is constant with a slot machine. You always get money which has consistent value.
>
> The other thing you said that I actually laughed out loud at was "get a good return on your investment." Playing with BLC is in no way an investment. No even close. Anyone who buys keys in whatever way they purchase them knows what is in the BLC and that the possibility of getting any of the rare or super rare drops is minuscule. It is an investment like going to your local bakery, buying a bunch of their grab bags hoping you will get a bunch of fresh apple turnovers and getting all three day old plain doughnuts.
>
Congratulations! You understand the problem now.
-
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > > > >
> > > > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > > > >
> > > > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > > > >
> > > > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> > > >
> > > > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> > > >
> > > > This isn't complicated.
> > >
> > > Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
> > >
> > > This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
> >
> > With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
> >
> > It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
>
> It is nothing like a slot machine. You always get returns with a BLC. Your comparison is wrong. No matter how you want to try to spin it, they are not the same.
>
> You always get something from a BLC and you never know what exactly it will be but you always get something.
>
> You almost NEVER get anything from a Slot Machine and you always know what it will be if you do. Money.
>
> I will agree that "It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak. " But your argument isn't weak, it's just wrong.
Pedantic is splitting hairs between the type of reward offered between a single roll of a slot machine vs a single opening of a BLC when clearly what matters are the statistics of what happens over time in terms of value in-value out. With a slot machine, you might get lucky and win big, or you may get nothing, but either way, the longer you play the more likely the odds swing out of your favor. It's the exact same with BLC - sure, you always get something, but what matters is overall value you get out vs the value you put in over time.
If you spend money on 100 BLK and open 100 chests, you are more likely than not to **not** get a good return on your investment. But Anet isn't doling out real money, they are only receiving it, so there's no reason it should work that way. It would be better for players and for Anet to do what they can to make sure it's calibrated so that players have a slight edge in the returned value of buying BLK, rather than a handicap. The only difficult thing to control for here is the value of BL skins in the gem store, but, honestly, I think it's time they increased the drop rate on claim tickets even if it drops their prices in the store.
Also, I love this whole argument of BLC being about the fantasy of what you might win as if that somehow differentiates it like it's not how all forms of gambling are marketed.
-
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @jheryn.8390 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > > > >
> > > > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> > > >
> > > > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
> > >
> > > No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
> > >
> > > With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
> > >
> > > And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
> >
> > When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality.
> >
> > This isn't complicated.
>
> Agreed it is not that complicated. With a slot machine you get something or nothing. With BLC you ALWAYS get something. Always. You never have the possibility of getting nothing out of a BLC.
>
> This isn't a slot machine. It is a grab bag.
With a slot machine, you always get returns if you play for any length of time. The problem is that those returns diminish, and you are far more likely to lose value than you are to gain it through the process of playing. This is exactly what happens with BLC, and it's a problem because, unlike casinos hosting slot machines, Arenanet doesn't need to have an edge to profit from the system.
It's par for the course for people to become pedantic when they know their argument is weak.
-
> @jheryn.8390 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > >
> > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> >
> > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> >
> > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
>
> No it is not a gambling system. In gambling you wager something with the possibility of walking away with nothing. Gambling is also advertised as such. So you know you may (probably) will lose your money.
>
> With BLC you are not losing something as you will always get something of value. You may personally think what mostly drops from BLC are worthless, but that is opinion not truth.
>
> And as IWN mentioned, you are buying a digital fantasy, NOT a chance at real world monetary gain.
When you pay money - real or otherwise - into a system for RNG rewards (it could be nothing, it could be something of limited value, or it could be something of higher value than you put in) - that's gambling. Have you ever played a slot machine? This is basically identical to that, including the tuning of the reward quality. The problem is that, with a slot machine, there has to be a house edge because the casino pays out more the more people play, and they have to make a profit to keep running.
Here, it's not zero-sum - arenanet is not paying out more for more people to play the game, so having a "house edge" that benefits Anet is corrupt as shit. One argument is that these kinds of systems shouldn't exist in video games at all, but if they do, they need to favor the player in terms of value in for value out over the long run.
This isn't complicated.
-
> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
> > >
> > > If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
> >
> > Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
> >
> > Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation.
>
> We clearly disagree on what's being sold. I believe that the system is designed in a way that it's unreasonable to expect anyone will "get their money's worth" unless they are buying entertainment. At which point, the question is only: is it worth a dollar/euro equivalent to roll the dice?
>
> Like any lotto, they are selling a fantasy, not monetary equivalency. In RL lottos, about 50% of the proceeds goes into prizes, amortized over all the contestants. Given the huge jackpots, it means that most people are going to get returns far below average and a tiny fraction returns even farther above. The last time I calculated the monetary value of BL chests (based on then available drop rates and TP values, with gem:gold rates used for gem shop unlocks), it looked that BL keys offered about 70% return. (It's probably varied from 50% to 80% depending on the markets and contents). That's higher than RL lottos, but resulting in the same impact: lots of below average losers; a tiny fraction of far-above average winners.
>
> There's an argument that lottos exploit those bad at math... and it's been made since the very first lotto. However, even those good at math like the fantasy of imagining that they might be the one to win big. That's worth the occasional buck to me in RL. It's never worth it in game for me, although I'm willing to invest 20 minutes/week on a key run (because that's also kind of fun by itself).
>
> tl;dr I am convinced that BL Keys are selling a fantasy of the big win. I can see that being worth a dollar/euro/pound to some.
If there was actually a big win involved, your argument might work, but there's not. It's a relatively high risk for a relatively low reward, with diminishing returns for the player to add insult to injury. That's broken as shit, and it's no wonder people complain about it regularly on the forums.
They either need to make some _way_ more exciting potential BL rewards, or they need to retune the whole system to slightly favor players over the long run.
-
> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
> >
> > In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
>
> If it were a gambling system, maybe. It's not. It's a tool for selling moments of entertainment for a nominal price. They aren't selling the loot; they are selling the excitement of wondering if you might win big.
Yes, it is a gambling system, because you pay money for RNG rewards. The problem is that the longer you play it, the more likely you are to **not** get your money's worth out of it - which is by necessity how actual real world gambling works, but is the opposite of how this type of gambling system needs to work if they want to actually make money off of it without pissing off their players constantly.
Designing it like real-world gambling is blatant exploitation and not smart from a business perspective.
-
The thing that frustrates me about this is the idea that the "house edge" should apply to gambling in an MMO - it shouldn't, because unlike with real gambling - it's an additive system based on RNG, not a zero-sum game. Neither game developers nor players seem to realize this, and it leads to exploitation and a lot of salt.
In fact, **the players should have an edge with any video game-based gambling system, and should virtually always come out ahead in the long run**. If you open 100 BL chests, you should expect there to be a high likelihood that the stuff you end up with carries somewhat higher overall value than stuff you would have bought directly because you wanted it. Otherwise, you are being exploited. **They do not have BL chests tuned appropriately, and people need to scream about it until they change it or remove it altogether.**
-
Rifle used to be decent on Warrior, but they fudged it when they removed bleeding from the autoattack and it's (absurdly) been underpowered ever since. Engi isn't really that great with it either. Thief/Deadeye is probably your best bet.
-
> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:
> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:
> > The players are the absolute last people you should be listening to, because players' idea of balance always boils down to "buff things I play, nerf things that beat me".
>
> I quake in fear and vomit rage at the thought of Anet taking suggestions, thoughts, feedback, and QQ from players.
>
> "Community feedback" is what brought us;
>
> NPE
> Map Currency
> Keys
> Mounts
> Townclothes Removal
> Raids
> Personality Removal
> Vested Liberal Agenda
> Market Crash
> Making Exclusive Content Non-Exclusive
> "Expansions" instead of biweekly living world.
> No April Fools
> Death of PvP
> Skittles
> Etc
> Etc
> Etc
Salty much? What an awful post. Almost everything you listed here was good for the game. The only thing I might agree on is the NPE. Even that's more of a mixed bag.
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> @Ubi.4136 said:
> There are many issues, none of which has a solution. Players should have to choose to be tanky and deal almost no dps or be really high dps with no survivability.
> While there are a few instances where the latter is true, there are tons of class builds that have ridiculous dps and survivability. On top of that, the tanky stat sets (dire, trailblazer) offer just as much dps (or more) for most classes as the high dps stat sets (i.e berserker).
>
> At this point, they would have to add a dps modifier to certain trait lines to offset what they have done. Warrior, for just one example. Taking the defense trait line, reduces your dps by a %. Some classes can build a full tank that still has higher dps than some other classes best dps build. This really shouldn't be the case. The current push to conditions has just made this more obvious.
My first point in this thread is that the over-tuning of conditions has had all kinds of terrible cascading effects on the game, one of which being what you pointed out - when you have high toughness, high health, AND a lot of condi clear/immunity because conditions are OP - that's going to make your defense in PvP over the top. That's the whole reason why conditions should exist. Immunity and cleansing should not be nearly as prevalent as they are, and condi should be the way you take down highly armored targets. That's why it also needs to not be better than power against low glassy targets.
It's a total mess, and fixing it actually shouldn't be that damn difficult.
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> @coglin.1496 said:
> > @psizone.8437 said:
> > That's disappointing considering PoF and the new elites came out over a month ago and there's a good deal of bugs and broken skills in game.
>
> I know right. it is almost as if those forms of changes are time-consuming and as if fixing values and code for bugged skills is complicated and stuff. If I were you, I would get serious about this and send Anet a message. Maybe a boycott. That's it, a boycott, yes, boycott the forums.
>
Don't be a shill.
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> @Panda.1967 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @Panda.1967 said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @Panda.1967 said:
> > > > > > @Adenin.5973 said:
> > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said:
> > > > > > > To be perfectly honest, i think a lot of the problem with condi truthfully stems from the existence of Vipers, Destroyers, Sinister, and Rampager stat sets... They allow condi builds to get high power damage alongside high condi damage. Other than Celestial, any statset that gives Power should never give Condi damage, and any statset that does Condi damage should never give Power. There isn't a single pure Condi DPS stat set that doesn't give Power, in fact they all give Power & Precision even...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This means that every Condi build either A ) has high direct damage as well or B ) has high defensive or support stats. Usually high Power since it allows them to do heavy direct damage alongside high Condition damage. It creates an imbalance that favors Condi builds. Power builds just can't compete, even though Condi weapons generally have lower base direct damage.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One of the ANet devs gave an example before to explain why Conditions are as strong as they are... but they didn't really paint an accurate picture of what we actually have. Their example:
> > > > > > > > Given the choice between an attack that does 1000 damage over 10 seconds and an attack that does 1000 damage instantly, you will always take the instant damage.
> > > > > > > However, in GW2 what we actually have looks more like this:
> > > > > > > > Given the choice between an attack that does 1000 damage instantly and an attack that does 500 instantly plus 1000 damage over 3 seconds, you will always take the later.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If stat sets that gave both Condi damage and Power didn't exist then the choice to build Condi would result in minimal direct damage in exchange for high condition damage, allowing both to actually be balanced. Instead we have pure power and hybrid power/condi DPS stat sets... and the hybrid sets give just as much direct damage as the pure power sets.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've got some numbers about vipers gear vs berserkers gear (On a Ranger). I've used full ascended gear, no runes, no sigills, no traits, no food or other buffs.
> > > > > > I then looked at the tooltip dmg of Axe MH, since Anet claims that it's a hybrid weapon and I looked at one skill from Greatsword.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With full Vipers gear we get:
> > > > > > Power: 2173, Crit-Chance: 34% ,Crit dmg: 150%
> > > > > > Condition dmg: 1173, Condition duration: 42%
> > > > > > Wintersbite dmg: 1013 + 7sec 1970 bleeding dmg
> > > > > > Maul dmg: 1559
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With full Berserkers gear we get:
> > > > > > Power: 2381, Crit-Chance: 50% ,Crit dmg: 214%
> > > > > > Condition dmg: 0, Condition duration: 0%
> > > > > > Wintersbite dmg: 1110 + 5sec 330 bleeding dmg
> > > > > > Maul dmg: 1710
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Which means we get with vipers gear on the different skills, compared to berserkers gear following numbers:**
> > > > > > Wintersbite: 9% less direct dmg, 596% more bleeding dmg, total of 1543 dmg (207%) more than with berserkers
> > > > > > Maul: 9% less direct dmg, total of 151 dmg (9%) less than with berserkers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Seeing that, I can't argue that vipers gear seems somewhat overpowered compared with berserkers gear.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _Edit: What we of course don't see here is the effect of the increased crit chance and the increased critical damage, which should help berserkers quite a bit._
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Used tool:
> > > > > > http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/
> > > > >
> > > > > A quick comparison of average crit values using your numbers. (Damage x crit mult) / crit chance
> > > > > This gives an average crit value per hit, so...
> > > > >
> > > > > Viper
> > > > > Wintersbite: +517 damage
> > > > > Maul: +795 damage
> > > > >
> > > > > Berserker
> > > > > Wintersbite: +1188 damage
> > > > > Maul: +1830 damage
> > > > >
> > > > > This puts total numbers up at:
> > > > > Wintersbite: 1530 + 7sec 1970 bleeding dmg (Viper) vs 2298 + 5sec 330 bleeding dmg (Berserker)
> > > > > Maul: 2354 (Viper) vs 3540 (Berserker)
> > > > >
> > > > > Wintersbite +33% damage Viper's
> > > > > Maul +50% damage Berserker
> > > > >
> > > > > Overall, with crit factored in they even out, especially when you factor in armor. Dealing slightly less direct damage in exchange for nearly 6x condition damage, is ultimately the preferable option. Especially when you consider the fact that you can stack the condition damage, turning the slight damage bonus of a power build per hit into nothing. Not to mention a condi build can get extra condition stacks from traits and runes with crits.
> > > > >
> > > > > The formulas and damage of Condi is actually quite well balanced, it's only thrown off balance by the fact that hybrid stat sets allow for both to reach high levels. Honestly Rampager's is the only hybrid pure DPS set that is remotely balanced since both Power and Condi are it's minor stats, and it has no Ferocity. The Condi equivalent to Berserker should give Condi, Expertise, Precision. Lower initial damage, but easier to stack due to longer durations allowing it to eventually surpass power. If they remove the hybrid sets and replace them with proper condi sets, we'd actually see a more balanced playing field between the two.
> > > >
> > > > Yes and no. The formulas and damage of condi are not well balanced at all, which his example plainly demonstrates. What you are describing is a product of the phenomenon that condition damage alone gives condition builds what it takes power, precision, and ferocity combined to give to direct damage builds. So, when you put power, precision, and expertise together with the major of condition damage, you end up with a massively over-tuned offense. Direct damage builds have no comparable option.
> > > >
> > > > Dire may produce damage numbers more in line with the berserker set, but then you have a lot of extra defense. If anything, direct damage builds should get free defensive stats since they require you to stay engaged with your target.
> > > >
> > > > This example just exposes how horrendously broken condition damage actually is in the game.
> > >
> > > The numbers presented are from Berserker (Power, Precision, Ferocity) and Viper (Power, Condi, Precision, Expertise) Both give power. This is a fact of all pure damage Condi stat sets. If you look at the damage values of a condi set that lacks power, you'll find the damage values are actually noticeably lower for condi than power. When factoring in stacking conditions, the lower base damage of conditions would be balanced.
> > >
> > > If someone would care to post the tooltip values of Ranger MH Axe with full ascended gear, no runes, no sigills, no traits, no food or other buffs utilizing a defensive Condi stat set, (Trailblazer or Rabid would be good examples). Then we can see exactly what sort of damage we would be seeing from Condi without hybrid sets that provide too much strength to both.
> > >
> > > Also, the new Grieving set will almost certainly provide even more overall damage for Condi builds by sacrificing Expertise for Ferocity. Enough that the small initial edge I outlined for Power builds should be completely non-existent. Berserker vs Grieving should be almost 100% advantage Grieving even with crits. Berserker would still be stronger for pure power attacks, but the margin would be so small even with crits that it's negligible.
> > >
> > > The issue isn't condition damage, the issue is the stat sets. They didn't consider the impact of hybrid sets enough and gave us multiple sets that provide heavy Power + Condi damage. If both stats are on the same set, both stats absolutely should be minors, never majors when both are present. This is for the same reason that there are no stat sets with Ferocity as a major. Can you imagine how overpowered Power builds would be with a 4 stat set giving Major Power + Ferocity with Minor Precision + Whatever? There would be no competition. This is exactly what we are seeing from Grieving & Vipers both giving Major Power + Condi with Minor Precision + Ferocity/Expertise.
> >
> > No, the issue is the condition damage. The reason this is obvious is because the economy of stats that allows for ultra-high condition damage does not allow for the equivalent with direct damage builds. If condition damage was not over-tuned, you would expect Grieving to be about as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as Viper's is for hybrid builds that favor condi damage, but that just isn't the case. Any time you have equivalent Condition Damage and Power on a stat set, condition builds will benefit more than direct damage builds due to the tuning of Condition damage. That's the problem.
> >
> > It's asinine to place the blame on the attribute combos - the attribute combos are rubber-banded and have the same total points. If one attribute combo is significantly stronger than another, there's an imbalance in the attributes themselves. Anet shouldn't have to not release some combinations of attributes to work around the fact that one of their attributes is overpowered.
> >
> > I disagree that major power + ferocity, minor precision + whatever would be more OP than viper's is for condition builds, and have no clue why you'd make that argument. Power, precision, and ferocity are the only stats tied to direct damage, so nothing will ever be better than Berserker's for direct damage. Any hybridization of those three stats with a four-stat combo will only dilute direct damage builds, not help them. See Marauder's for an example.
>
> You don't seem to be understanding the issue at all. Grieving would **NOT** be as good for hybrid builds that favor direct damage as it is for those that favor condition damage, and it's completely illogical to think that it would. The vast majority of Condi attacks have a direct damage component built into them, as a result they benefit from **BOTH** Power and Condition Damage. Direct damage attacks on the other hand don't benefit from Condi damage. You could argue that conditions don't benefit from Ferocity, but the fact remains that the attacks still do. Drop power from Condi stat sets and you'll see a huge dip in condi build damage.
>
> Conditions are **SUPPOSED** to do more damage in the long run than direct damage, but only after you stack them up. But because the stats sets allow condi builds to get their direct damage almost as high as pure direct damage power builds along with their condition damage, you end up with condi builds that do just as much damage as direct damage builds before stacking up their conditions. By making it so you either have Condition Damage or Power on your gear, (or if both, both are minor stats) you cause condi to have a lower starting point and actually have to build up stacks to reach direct damage in strength, but can eventually pass direct damage if they build up their conditions enough.
Dire and Rabid should be inferior to Berserker's for DPS, with Sinister and Viper being more equivalent to Berskerker's output. That's what we would expect if condition damage was properly balanced. But I strongly suspect that isn't the reality - I'd love to see if anyone has any math on it.
If we look across different builds in the game and conclude that Dire/Rabid is comparable to Beserker in DPS, but that Viper and Sinister outperform Bersker, that's a very, very clear indication that the problem is the tuning on condition damage and nothing else.
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> @Ardid.7203 said:
> I would like them to adjust both males and females to look less human, more giant-like, and more similar between themselves. More Norn, less "stretched krytans".
I would actually support this also, but I doubt it's in the cards. I do think we could hard enough for them to adjust the proportions on Norn males.
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The simple truth is that the class/balance team at Anet is just not very good, and never has been - look at the obviously half-finished state of the revenant more than two years after it was released. I don't know if it's the individuals on the team or more systemic problems related to the structure and management of the team, but it needs to change. Anet has over 300 employees - this shouldn't be this much of a problem. It's been needing to change for at least 3 years, and we're now hitting critical mass for players getting rightfully pissed about getting a bi-weekly-in-quality-but-once-every-3-months balance patch that is largely untested and never re-tuned after rollout that rarely even attempts to address big picture balance problems. I would complain about getting them right at the start of PvP season, but it's a moot point since they've (laughably) never done any real post-balance balancing in the past, so what does the timing matter?
I mean, are we even going to get any big picture balance stuff addressed? I somehow doubt it:
Damage is overtuned in general
Conditions are even more overtuned, making cleanse/immunity dominate the game and making toughness underpowered as a damage mitigation stat
Health hasn't kept up with offensive power creep (either in PvE or PvP), making combat in general too dodge-or-die and unstrategic
Boons/conditions have over-crept into skills and traits and too many boons get passed around by too many builds
Only one well-functioning healing/support spec out of the 27 available specializations in the game
Many specific skills and traits are bugged or very badly tuned, in some cases haven't seen changes since launch
Balance is iterative, and you need to iterate faster with clearer goals/communication and better response to feedback. End of discussion.
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> @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
> What an absolute joke.
>
> Balance batch once per quarter, no balance patch with expansion, new balance patch same day as new pvp season.
>
> Are the balance team seriously patting themselves on the back for "5 sec cooldown reduction" "balances" every 4 months? Job well done, let's go grab a drink for the next 16 weeks?
That's really how it feels. There's no way they don't spend way too much time in deliberation when things need quick tuning updates. This status quo has to change.
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> @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
> > @psizone.8437 said:
> > That's disappointing considering PoF and the new elites came out over a month ago and there's a good deal of bugs and broken skills in game.
> >
> > Is it possible to get a preview of some changes for each class in the profession forums? Including expected bug fixes and balance changes so players can debate and provide early feedback if needed.
>
> No kidding. Does the team realize this glacial approach is not good? I sometimes wonder but we never hear from them about such things. Guess I expected to see a little more urgency in dealing with issues in PoF skills, some of which were discovered during the demo weekends. It's truly mind-boggling to me that we aren't really getting it. If anyone from A.net reads this thread then you all really need to be faster and more agile with this stuff than you are now. Taking the wait and see approach doesn't work in all cases and all cases should not be treated as if it does. It's not working for the player base... it's okay to take risks sometimes, put down the spreadsheets and try to be faster.
They apparently don't, since it's what they've been doing for years now. Common sense tells you that balance updates need to happen more than once a quarter.
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> @Veprovina.4876 said:
> > @Zenith.7301 said:
> > > @Veprovina.4876 said:
> > > > @Fluffball.8307 said:
> > > > Norn in GW1 look completely identical to humans, other than their height. The GW2 female norn are not prettied up, they're actually much heavier and muscular than GW1 norn. The males in GW2 are MUCH thicker though.
> > > >
> > > > GW1 norn female:
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes but you have to be aware of the technical limitations of the GW1 engine. It was probably just easier to scale the human model than to make a new one. In GW2 humans and norn are 2 different models. And yes, female norns are way heavier than human females, but have the same proportions more or less whereas males don't. And that's ok. I like how norn look in the game. Maybe tone the females more in line with the males, but whatever.
> > >
> > > Who really needs some love are the Charr. Especially in the armor department, most of it looks atrocious lol.
> >
> > A load of crap considering the concept art in GW1 also showed male norn as scaled up humans.
>
> Well, until Anet changes something, the current Norn look is canon.
The point is that Anet needs to change it.
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> @Khisanth.2948 said:
> > @nosleepdemon.1368 said:
> > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:
> > > Is that the one that shoots like 4 or so arrows in one direction and like barely hits anything and barely does damage?
> >
> > It's actually seven shots. It's sort of in the name there. With that said, it's so buggy that I wouldn't be surprised if it consistently only fired four shots for some people.
>
> It is not buggy just very badly implemented.
>
> Using the GW2 Tactical Overlay's range circle and the special forces test golem I have determined that there is approximately a 1-2 pixel range where you can get 7 hits. Move by a pixel and your number of hits will drop to 3, a bit more and it is 2 and everything else is either 1 or 0. For 7 hits the range circle should be just touching the back side of the red circle under the golem's feet.
Yeah, that's a major problem.
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Yes. I totally support this. They really screwed up the proportions on male norn and it deserves a fix.
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> @Disig.7169 said:
> I 100% agree. I feel like story mode should not be as difficult as they have been making it. I'm not doing the story for a challenge, I'm doing the story to enjoy the plot. And honestly? I haven't been able to enjoy the plot a whole lot since the game has me worrying more about an end fight after an hour long story session. Story should be accessible to all no matter how skilled. At this point in time it's definitely not.
This. Open world (generally) and story instances are not the place for super difficult content. Anet hasn't seemed to clue in that this is why most MMOs have a lot of dungeon/raid content - they act as a better framework for difficult content.
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Even with a mouse and solid targeting, the skill is very, very mediocre. Renegade is weird because the spec itself is a buff for M/A condi builds on Revenant, but there's very little incentive to use the iconic shortbow with it. Maybe that's intended, I dunno.
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Yeah, I keep thinking about this as I play through PoF. The advertising was misleading. As much as I like what we did get, in all honesty, it seems to be about the same amount of content we got out of HoT, and arguably a bit less.
I think it's actually sort of inexcusable that we didn't get any of the following:
new weapon types
new guild missions
new dungeons
new PvP/WvW maps/gamemodes (can we please get a third distinct map for borderlands instead of having 2 alpine and 1 desert?)
new classes
new races
polish or reworks on older systems like the PS and trait/specializations
more regular balance updates
new craft/gathering skills
I wasn't expecting all of it, but I was expecting some of it. Mo needs to do better, or hire someone who can.
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> @starlinvf.1358 said:
> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:
> > > > > @"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:
> > > > > > @xiev.6905 said:
> > > > > > I comment on your other post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah having feel weapon swap, customized utilities and a legend would be OP.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like to see weapon swap tie to the legend we equipped. Invoking legend will automatically switch weapon set and it is the only way to switch.
> > > > >
> > > > > Meta builds already stick to one set of weapons. All this would accomplish is forcing people to double up on their gear or lock them out of certain utilities for literally no reason if they're running something like staff backup for cc. This idea literally adds nothing and only makes the class worse.
> > > >
> > > > I dunno, I see both sides. I think it would depend on what the base Revenant was able to use and how. But it would be an interesting way to have Revs be "weapon swap but no weapon swap" more like Eles and Engis.
> > >
> > > Ele and Engie have the potential for eight unique weapons swaps. For the former that's four attunement and four conjures. For the latter that's one weapon, six kits, and photon forge.
> > > That's 40 abilities, not include the six dual skills on Weaver, or the Engie's toolbelt.
> > >
> > > We have at most 23 abilities, all of which have cooldowns and/or resource requirements. It's not comparable.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Right now we have 23 abilities. The point of this thread is push for changing that.
>
> Adding more abilities doesn't fix the underlying problem of how we access them. Rev designed as a non-synegistic, compartmentalized skill system, which is supposed to afford it a higher power budget. But because of the way the game is designed, most classes actively EXCEED their power budget by exploiting compounding multipliers. There is also a major inconsistency between classes as to how this do this. Guardians get most of their effective power through Trait Synergy (and which Firebrand breaks, because its an additional layer of power ON TOP of that high Effective power). Theives get their power through trait stacking and skill/field combo. Eles and Engineers get their power by skill spamming. Warriors get their power from conditional modifiers, and build rotations around their triggers.
>
> Rev's underlying problem is the same one Rangers suffer from..... poor trait/skill synergy that is being compensated for by very narrow force multiplication. At face value, most Ranger weapon and Utilities are very powerful in isolation; and is largely why the class is so durable in open world. But when put under any amount of stress, those skills can't keep pace with other classes, except with a hand full of very specific combinations. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, if it wasn't for the fact that Ranger's effective power caps faster then any other class, and has very few options to get around this problem (which is why nearly every build relies heavily on Quick Draw).
>
> With the Rev, they lack the diversity of utilities, but the individual skills are (by far) the strongest set of skills in Isolation. That fact has largely been whats carrying Rev through HOT, and would be insanely over powered if allowed to mix and match them. But their counter balance factors, ie high energy costs, prevents their skills from being used in complex skill chains that every other class uses to deliver their roles. From a build perspective, its a sustain class with poor responsiveness in a game that operates heavily on Bursty responses. Looking at both PvP and WvW, Rev has to be played very Predicatively, and gets little to no pay out of that prediction is wrong. In PvE, where everything is predictable, the class shines a lot brighter.... until they're faced with 2 or more mechanics to counter. Now when you look at the skill division for their utilities, the designer's goal was to avoid skill combinations for stacking power- supposedly with the intent that each skill is good enough on their own to handle a specific situation.
> Which brings us to why the Renegade falls apart..... its the same concepts taken to a logical extreme, but the whole kit is vulnerable to hard counters. The only thing thats changed is that Kala has generic trait synergy with Condi damage, where as Herald has synergy with Power. But Glint also has access to 2 very strong life saver skills if timed correctly: Facet of Light and Facet of Chaos. Name one skill in the entire Kala kit that could do the same? The Knock down on ScorchRazor is as close as it gets. The short bow skills are too slow for the 900 range in any PvP mode, and lacks ramping or utility in PvE... so naturally Condi Revs are falling back on the higher potency of Mace/Axe. As for the utilities..... its that combination of short duration, high cost, and easily countered that make using those skills borderline wasteful. On the off chance they do land for full effect, that effect is so minor that it barely sets up the target for a follow up (and by that time you're already out of energy).
>
> Break it all down, and you'll realize that adding more skills won't fix the problem of the design intent of those skills NOT being meant to be chained.
I'm glad you wrote a whole dissertation without reading or understanding the original post.
"Condi Burst"
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion
Posted
> @Xegrilt.9426 said:
> I really like the suggestion about balancing both damage type based on Toughness. At least on paper, it potentially could bring true balance for both damage type, tho it require more than some small adjustments that could be too big for the frequency of balancing patch they're pushing.
>
> Other approach is to simply bump 'Power' but as pointed out earlier, Viper also use Power, they don't actually lose out that much in 'Power' compared to a pure Power build. I think the problem is Ferocity vs Expertise. Ferocity translate to 1% critical damage per 15 points, and a full Berserker with 175 Ferocity rune will only get u +75% critical damage. That's like 50% improvement from base critical damage, and thats only if u got 100% critical rate and still mitigated by Armor, while Expertise can pump 100% damage improvement for condi. I think they really should bump Ferocity to give 1% critical damage every 5 or 7 points
I don't think buffing power is a good solution simply because damage is already too clutchy in the game, especially after years of offensive power creep with no changes to defense mechanics (other than more immunity/cleansing).
If anything, power damage is also overtuned, just not as much as condition damage is.