Einlanzer.1627

> @Kalocin.5982 said:

> Now I could be totally sounding silly here but I'm pretty certain a lot of it has to do with condition armor sets (viper namely) are more of a hybrid than straight condition damage. We're not looking at a "ramp up" because the power is already pretty close to regular power builds, except every class has some sort of condition on their weapons which instantly make it a better set. At this point, why even have power and condition a separate stat? Roll them into one stat called Attack Power and call it a day. Now that would be a heck of a balance job and I doubt it'd happen, but right now our devs seem to have it in their head that condition damage doesn't have any power in its build and it's all in the condition damage.

>

> Gist version:

> Condi = Hybrid not straight Condi

It's a bit more complex than this, but, yes, the attribute dependencies for direct vs condition damage is a part of the overall equation.

> @Adenin.5973 said:

> > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > @Adenin.5973 said:

> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > > > @Galmac.4680 said:

> > > > > But some of the power classes can down you instant, too. Take P/P thiefs, shatter mesmers, a lucky warrior... As the last expansion shows ANet loves conditions and seems to increase the amount of condi builds. Guess you have to live with that and modify your build.

> > > >

> > > > P/P thief maxes at around 24k DPS last I checked. Most every condition build has nearly 50% more than that.

> > >

> > > DPS has nothing to do with burst dmg. It's actually quite the opposite. DPS is only useful when we talk about long static fights, not burst scenarios and it's especially useless in spvp encounters.

> > >

> > > There are plenty of power builds who can pump out 20k+ dmg in under 5 seconds at the start of a fight. This is impossible to achieve with any condition build even if you precast marks, traps or other skills. (unbuffed of course)

> >

> > Depending on how much might I have, I can do burn ticks for 16-22K for about 3-4 seconds seconds on my firebrand before it drops down to 6-11K burn ticks. It takes about 2 seconds to set that up. This is on top of the power damage

>

>

> Show me the footage of you, unbuffed and solo pulling 20k fire ticks in under 2 seconds after the beginning of a fight. The fact is simply: If you're on a power build and press every dmg skill you have, you do more dmg when you've activated all skills than someone that has a condi build.

> That's the nature of instant damaging skills. They're good at doing instant dmg. There is no question that power builds have higher burst dmg.

>

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> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > @Adenin.5973 said:

> > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > > > @Galmac.4680 said:

> > > > > But some of the power classes can down you instant, too. Take P/P thiefs, shatter mesmers, a lucky warrior... As the last expansion shows ANet loves conditions and seems to increase the amount of condi builds. Guess you have to live with that and modify your build.

> > > >

> > > > P/P thief maxes at around 24k DPS last I checked. Most every condition build has nearly 50% more than that.

> > >

> > > DPS has nothing to do with burst dmg. It's actually quite the opposite. DPS is only useful when we talk about long static fights, not burst scenarios and it's especially useless in spvp encounters.

> > >

> > > There are plenty of power builds who can pump out 20k+ dmg in under 5 seconds at the start of a fight. This is impossible to achieve with any condition build even if you precast marks, traps or other skills. (unbuffed of course)

> >

> > I... don't think this is true. I also don't think the game should be balanced around fights that last fewer than 5 seconds. Of course, part of the problem here is that PvP is too bursty in general. Relative to defense, power damage is probably overtuned; condition damage is just more overtuned.

>

> Well, you can think many things but unless you explain why you think this way there's no point in writing about it.

> The game is not balanced around fights <5 seconds. The game is balanced around having 2 different concepts of dealing dmg, where you have to choose the right dmg type for the right environment or enemy.

>

> If you have long single target fights, then go with condition, if you have multiple foes that need to be quickly dealt with then choose power dmg.

> It's like in PvP. Assuming two equally good players, not every class and every build will be able to beat another class/build. This is why we play an MMORPG, you choose one single role and if you need another role you invite more people to your party.

>

> Also, in PvP, if you lower burst dmg and increase defence or whatever to make the fights longer, then you get complaints about the "bunker meta". The thing is, you will never please the PvP- players. Because whenever someone wins, someone else loses.

The game _is supposed to be_ balanced around having two different concepts of dealing damage - one that is dealt immediately but met with passive defense, and one that distributes over time but bypasses passive defense. "The environment" is not, or should not be "is it one target with a lot of HP, or multiple targets with low HP", it's supposed to be "is/are the target(s) high-armor, or is/are the target(s) low-armor?" Single vs. AoE shouldn't even really be part of the equation, and typically isn't.

Thing is, that makes no sense when conditions out-damage power-based builds against glassy targets because they're trying to balance around a fight lasting a few seconds. If the balance team is trying to make conditions competitive with power in the span of a 5 second engagement, or even a 10 second one, without even factoring in the target's defense, conditions will always be be generally overpowered, and they'll continue having to come up with silly gimmicks to keep power relevant particularly in PvE.

It's a bad paradigm. Power damage **should** be expected to outperform condition damage against targets with low armor, _no matter how long the fight lasts_. High armor should translate into it taking more than 4 seconds to kill someone, which swings the balance in favor of condition damage.

> @Adenin.5973 said:

> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > @Galmac.4680 said:

> > > But some of the power classes can down you instant, too. Take P/P thiefs, shatter mesmers, a lucky warrior... As the last expansion shows ANet loves conditions and seems to increase the amount of condi builds. Guess you have to live with that and modify your build.

> >

> > P/P thief maxes at around 24k DPS last I checked. Most every condition build has nearly 50% more than that.

>

> DPS has nothing to do with burst dmg. It's actually quite the opposite. DPS is only useful when we talk about long static fights, not burst scenarios and it's especially useless in spvp encounters.

>

> There are plenty of power builds who can pump out 20k+ dmg in under 5 seconds at the start of a fight. This is impossible to achieve with any condition build even if you precast marks, traps or other skills. (unbuffed of course)

I... don't think this is true. I also don't think the game should be balanced around fights that last fewer than 5 seconds. Of course, part of the problem here is that PvP is too bursty in general. Relative to defense, power damage is probably overtuned; condition damage is just more overtuned.

> @Galmac.4680 said:

> But some of the power classes can down you instant, too. Take P/P thiefs, shatter mesmers, a lucky warrior... As the last expansion shows ANet loves conditions and seems to increase the amount of condi builds. Guess you have to live with that and modify your build.

P/P thief maxes at around 24k DPS last I checked. Most every condition build has nearly 50% more than that.

> @pah.4931 said:

> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > > @pah.4931 said:

> > > > @dusanyu.4057 said:

> > > > hopeing for love for power builds across the board (we need to be welcome in Frac. and raids )

> > >

> > > Please this. I enjoy Power specs for most classes, and they just don't do as well as Condi.(because Anet's flawed design philosophy).

> >

> > I honestly think the proper solution is nerfing condi damage rather than buffing power damage, but there are definitely some power builds that could use tweaking.

>

> That's a good point. That will FEEL like it hurts more, which is always bad for design. But, on the other hand, if everything is brought up in power then encounters are going to become trivialized.

>

> The problem is ... and Anet has admitted this as much in their AMA ... their damage philosophy can be summed up as: "Because power does more damage in less time, Condi has to do more damage in more time--otherwise people will always choose power."

>

> Ironically, since almost all major encounters last for minutes, most people choose Condi ... ya know, because it does more damage than power.

>

> INSTEAD their philosophy should be more about playstyle. In a 10 minute fight, both power and condi should do comparable damage, just differently. Other systems (checks and balances and rock/paper/scissors) should be in place to balance things out.

Which is laughably myopic. People should choose power because they want to do massive damage against low armored targets, and they should choose conditions because they want to do big damage against highly armored targets.

It's like anet somehow completely forgot that the entire purpose of Toughness and armor is to reduce incoming direct damage, and the entire purpose of condition damage is to bypass that defense. As usual, their paradigm is just... dumb. They need a shakeup on their class/balance team.

When you have condition builds doing 30% more damage than power builds on a glassy target - there's an obvious balance problem occurring.

> @Frostwolve.2916 said:

> My view of the whole thing is, damage has gone up consistently since hot with little to no increase in negating effects. I feel like vitality for every class needs to be increased for wvw in particular. I would like to see10k health added to each class upon entering wvw.

>

> You cannot keep increasing the damage without increasing the things that negate the damage particularly vitality cause toughness is useless against conditions. Also power hasn't seen as much of a rise in damage as conditions.

Yeah, that's also a valid point, but it applies mostly to conditions. Power damage has not gone up nearly as significantly.

> @pah.4931 said:

> > @dusanyu.4057 said:

> > hopeing for love for power builds across the board (we need to be welcome in Frac. and raids )

>

> Please this. I enjoy Power specs for most classes, and they just don't do as well as Condi.(because Anet's flawed design philosophy).

I honestly think the proper solution is nerfing condi damage rather than buffing power damage, but there are definitely some power builds that could use tweaking.

> @Kholem.6092 said:

> I think that that actually sounds like a strong idea if we could be given the option to drop a legend but not force only one. It would allow for the build diversity we lack

Yeah, that's fair. I don't see anything wrong with doing that instead of forcing only one legend.

The whole buzz surrounding "condi burst" is a red herring and a silly attempt at rationalizing the problem as something other than what it actually is. Let's just drop this absurdity and call a spade a spade - condition damage is (generally) over-tuned and in need of significant nerfs. Being able to drop a lot of conditions quickly shouldn't be an issue, and wouldn't be if condition damage was properly tuned.

Condi being over-tuned is quite plainly demonstrated by the fact that it typically **outperforms direct damage even against glass builds and low-armor mobs**. Isn't the entire purpose of condition damage to bypass armor? Why, then, does it do more damage even when the target has low armor? That's completely wrong-headed. You should expect a power build to outperform a condi build against a low armor target _no matter how long the fight lasts_. Condi's advantage is that it circumvents high armor, which power builds should and do struggle with. This is one of the main reasons why Toughness is undervalued in pretty much all game modes. What's the point when it's usually conditions that kill you anyway?

Two years of condi being OP has also pushed the proliferation of cleansing and resistance mechanics to give players and mobs ways of dealing with it, and the whole combat system has suffered for it. Toughness hardly matters, players are forced to build around condi cleanse/immunity, non-bunkers die way too fast while bunkers are even more annoying than they should be. By nerfing condi damage, we can effectively scale all of this back and restore a modicum of balance and control to the combat system.

Everyone (including Anet) acts like conditions are the same as generic DoTs from other games, when that isn't how they were designed. They were largely designed with quick stacking and short duration because they need to be balanced in both PvP (short fights) and PvE (long fights), which is why balancing them primarily around fight duration as opposed to armor doesn't make any sense and will never lead to good balance. Again, let armor largely determine which is more effective, that way they both have a competitive place in the meta in both PvP and PvE.

Here's an example of how it should work, barring any gimmicks or specialized mechanics:

**low armor** - physical has advantage right out of the gate and never loses it, no matter how long the fight lasts

**mid-range armor** - physical has advantage at first, but swings slightly in favor of condition damage probably starting at around the 6 second mark.

**high armor** - condi has the advantage by the 2-3 second mark and maintains it from there.

And that's not even getting into the attribute dependency imbalances that exist between physical damage and condition damage builds.

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> Condi damage is overtune like you say because condi burst exist. That's why I say that it should happen in a perfect world where every professions is well tuned to achieve the same efficiency with different professions "flavor". And it would be normal for condi to achieve greater dps on the long run with a long ramp up. The idea (utopist) is that power acieve it's dps instantly putting him at 30k instantly but it would take 7-8 second for a condi build to reach those 30k and 3 more seconds to reach max efficiency at 35k. Now you add encounter with bosses that are invulnerable and immun to condition for most of the fight except for short damage windows of 15 seconds that the players have to create and the game become balanced (PvE side). From a PvP standpoint, the dps potential is secondary, and a player that allow a 10 second ramp up from a condi build deserve to die as much as a player that stand still taking the beating of a power build.

This whole "condi burst" buzz thing is a red herring and a silly attempt at rationalizing the problem as something other than it what it actually is. Let's just drop this absurdity and call a spade a spade - condi damage is over-tuned and needs a more or less across-the-board nerf. This is plainly demonstrated by the fact that it typically outperforms power damage even against glass builds and low-armor mobs, when the whole purpose of physical damage is to exploit weak passive defense.

It should be about 10-15% stronger vs average defense targets, stronger vs high defense targets, and weaker than power against low defense targets. We don't need to overcomplicate the issue by acting like condi stacks shouldn't be able to be applied in rapid succession under the right circumstances.

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> Well this is not how anet design the balancing between power and condi.

>

> Anet look for a "burst" amount of dps when it come to power and expect it to be reach fast. As for condi they set up a high damage target which need to be achieved after some ramping up. That's the reason why on large health pool target condition perform better than power while on low health pool target it favor power.

>

> Raids would most likely be better if there was variety in the boss encounters. So that some boss need you to endure for some time (forcing player to wear something else than full dps gear) or/and only had short window for the players to deal them some damage (greatly favouring power damage which are supposed to have no ramp up in damage).

>

> What we need to keep in mind is that:

> - power dps are meant to be 100m track athletes which achieve their greatest potential in short fights.

> - condi dps are meant to be 3000m track athletes which achieve their greatest potential in long fights.

>

> This mean that we should have neither any "burst" condi spec nor should we have any power spec that deal more dps than a condi spec on a long fight.

>

> In a perfect world in gw2, all power dps spec would quickly achieve 28 to 30k dps while all condi dps spec would slowly ramp up to 33-35k dps. Obviously, all profession should also have support of equal value if it goes along with the dps.

The problem is that people are only looking at the drawbacks of condition damage and not the benefits. The idea that the balance team is consumed with that condi DPS should always be stronger due to ramp up is misguided and fails to take into account the benefits condi damage has. -

a.) it allows for set up and ticks passively, which is huge in GW2's active combat system

b.) even more importantly, it bypasses armor.

On average, condi damage should be slightly stronger, but it should depend on the target's passive defense to an extent, and power builds should outdamage condi builds vs glass players and low defense targets. That isn't the generally the case currently, and, due to this, condition removal and Resistance mechanics have become overly prolific - both players and mobs are overly reliant on them to deal with incoming condition damage.

**It's a very obvious problem stemming from the very obvious conclusion that condi damage is overtuned and needs to be nerfed in numerous places.** And that's not even getting into the imbalance in attribute dependencies power builds have compared to condition builds.

> @Justine.6351 said:

> At first I thought this was going to be a bad idea,

> Then I thought hmmmm maybe,

> Then I read that last line about removing weapon swapping,

> gg nice troll thread.

Revs were originally conceived as a class that wouldn't have weapon swapping, and they added it in because they didn't design the legend system well enough to not have it. If they revisited the way legends work, there's no reason why they couldn't have a non weapon swapping class the way engis and elementalists are.

But, I'm not necessarily arguing that it needs to happen I'm just saying there's potential for it.

The whole legend swapping thing on Revenants is something that is conceptually a bit weird and mechanically doesn't work as well as it should. This is mostly because each legend operates within a specific role, so swapping between them often doesn't make a lot of sense. It also leaves an absence of design space for more generic skill types that would fit the Revenant theme well and an overall lack of skill choice for Revenants, which is a problem that will only get worse.

What would a smarter design be? How about this - you only have one legend equipped at a time, but you can go into and out of it in the same way that you swap between two legends currently. There would be 10 or so new skills that are _not associated with any legend._ These can be customized on your skill bar when you are not invoking a legend. When you go into invocation mode, your customized skills are swapped out for the 5 skills associated with the legend you're currently invoking, which cannot be customized. This would allow you to build a non-invocation loadout that synergizes with whatever legend you have equipped based on the role you want to play, and would make a lot of Revenant choices a lot more interesting.

Conceptually, at least, I think that would make a lot more sense than the current design. It would give Revs much greater build depth. It would probably also justify the removal of weapon swapping - especially if they allowed for not invoking while still having two legend equipped.

Yes. Yes they do. If Anet really doesn't want to do this, I'd also support giving them 3 extra generic Mist themed utilities that could be swapped into any legend or accessed via letting go of a legend. (It's weird that not channeling a legend for more generic skills isn't an option for Revenants).

Condi Renegade is quite strong in PvE, but it's mostly because of how good M/A is, and Kalla synergizes with Mallyx a bit better than any other legend does. But don't let good numbers fool you into thinking the class works fine. It's a hugely unpolished mess- SB is rarely competitive, there's a serious lack of customization leading to shallow gameplay (as with any Rev spec), and the energy mechanic is designed in such a way that it's mostly just a pointless burden.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that many of the above problems are just due to MH Sword being under-tuned. But the lack of skill variety and build customization _drives me insane_ with Revenants. The class just needed more development time than it got.

Condi Renegade works well enough, but Shortbow really needs some more TLC as it's rarely competitive with M/A. The real problem I have is the lack of skills and customization. That's never going to stop being a problem until they add a ton of new skills and/or rework the legend mechanics a bit.

Pretty much anyone who's played multiple classes and is being honest with themselves should be able to say with little hesitation the correct answer here - Revenant is the sloppiest _by far_ in terms of execution, and the one that would most benefit from a real rework. It's frustrating because it's an awesome concept for a unique class, it just needed a lot more time in development than it got.

Most other classes are fine and at most may need overhauls to some of their skill types (mesmer mantras are still pretty lackluster, for example), but nothing like the updates Revenant needs.

-They are about 20 skills behind other classes. Variety is important in an MMO.

-Their weapon swap feels like a poor band-aid that was tacked on in a futile attempt to address more underlying problems with their gameplay fluidity

-They have severely restricted customization, which is terrible in an MMO

-They uniquely lack a profession attribute.

-They are even more restricted underwater than other professions

-Their weapons and legends are hogtied to specific roles with little hybridization or synergy, limiting the value of weapon and legend swapping

-Their energy mechanic is clunky and seems to only serve the purpose of forcing the player to legend swap in spite of the above point.

-Jalis is not terribly useful, Ventari is too tablet focused, and Shiro over-relies on the boring crutch of Impossible Odds. Lots of changes needed here.

-Unlike other classes, they feel designed to their elite specs - relying on them to complete the class rather than open up interesting variants for it

I would give them 10-16 new skills that are not associated with any legend, then allow them to unslot one of their legends and have a "none" option which would grant them access to the 10-16 legend agnostic skills they could customize their skill bar with. This would mean that, if you like the Revenant how it is now, nothing would need to change for you, but if you're one of the many people who don't - you'd have a lot of new things to play around with.

edit - I meant for this to go in general as this is not specific to PvP. Sorry about that!

Currently, condition damage outperforms direct damage almost universally. Ele power-based Weaver is still really good, and a couple of power builds such as Staff Daredevil come close to being competitive, but most power builds just don't do that well in the current game.

I don't disagree with Karl in the AMA that, in the context of optimized builds, condi damage should slightly outperform direct damage due to the nature of damage over time. However, in the AMA, Karl only discussed the drawbacks of condition damage and not the benefits. This is a pretty glaring oversight, because condi actually carries a few fairly large benefits:

a.) it deals damage passively. This means it's usually easier to "set up" and allows you to focus more on defense and utility while dealing damage, which is a pretty huge advantage in GW2's active combat system

b.) the weight of each attribute within condi builds is different from physi builds. While condition damage can utilize a greater number of attributes, **Malice** (Anet, it's time to formally revert the name for both flavor and clarity in communication) always carries disproportionate weight, which affords condition builds a bit more flexibility. You can fully optimize your damage with Viper stats, or you can add in some extra defense or utility without sacrificing nearly as much damage potential as burst builds do. IMO, this is a huge problem - especially because, if anything, it should be the opposite - burst builds really need this flexibility more than condi builds do since they have to stay engaged to apply pressure.

c.) condition damage is not affected by passive defense, which is a great way to ensure that it's better than burst builds in some situations and worse in others (highly armored vs. glass), but this is not taken advantage of currently - instead, condition damage is pretty much always better unless the fight is really, really short. **It's easy to conclude that condition damage is over-tuned by simply observing that it typically outperforms direct damage even against glass builds & low defense enemies, which makes no sense whatsoever.** What's the point of toughness & armor, exactly, when condition is the meta because it's almost always better? Condition damage should be significantly better against high toughness/armor, while being slightly weaker against low toughness/armor

So what sort of solutions can we come up with?

**First,** I think Anet needs to baseline direct and condition damage around specific benchmarks. I'd start with this:

Calculate optimized condi damage against optimized physical damage, and then try to benchmark about a 15% difference vs. average toughness/armor. Based on armor values, there should be a roughly 30% variance from there. So, against the glassiest enemy imaginable, power would be about 15% better, and against a really tough enemy, condi would be about 45% better. The current scale of burst vs condi builds is not _anywhere near_ this spectrum of variability. They also need to broaden out the base defense of a lot of enemies in PVE.

**Second**, I think that Anet needs to spend significant time rethinking the allocation and roles of some the attributes in the game. Personally, I'm a fan of at least exploring the notion of combining Precision and Ferocity into one attribute. Thematically, they don't really deserve to be separate, and doing this would get us out of the Berserker mentality once and for all, allowing direct damage builds to have the flexibility that condition builds currently have - incorporating support or defense choices without completely undermining their output. This would give them an opportunity to revisit and touch up the different attribute combos available on gear. I would probably advocate replacing Ferocity in some cases with the profession specific attribute that is currently unavailable on gear for no good reason (yes, Revenant needs one still).

> @mtpelion.4562 said:

> Fractals have replaced Dungeons for all future 5 man instance content. There will never be enough player demand to make them change that strategy.

Don't agree. It may not happen, but it's definitely possible that it will. It's actually absurd to think otherwise.

> @Fatalyz.7168 said:

> > @Britvaa.2048 said:

> > is there a chance that we will have more in the future?

>

> No. Anet has stated several times that they will not be creating new dungeon content, they are focusing on Fractals as their 5 man instanced content and raids for 10 man.

>

>

Except things don't actually work like that. If there's enough player demand, Anet will eventually cave. They have to know it was a boneheaded decision.

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> Or just make DoTs vs DDs a function of class design? Because you know, it worked for all other RPGs in the last 30 years, so **clearly it must be the wrong solution!** :expressionless:

Nah. I don't like this option. I don't care if other MMOs had success with it - I prefer GW's style of making professions open-ended with lots of different ways to build them.

Revenants are just a half-finished class all the way around. I wouldn't even care that much about being a little suboptimal if I at least had a fair number of things to play around with. Instead, I face severely railroaded gameplay with fixed utility skills, half the number of skills other classes have, no profession unique attribute, clumsy resource mechanics, very shoddy underwater options, and elite specs that are designed to try to finish the class rather than mixing them up with new options that are creative and different.

It's actually really absurd and unprofessional that in two years they haven't revisited the core profession at all to address its underlying problems. Renegade just brought them to the forefront after Herald acted as a bandaid fix for a badly executed base profession. The class team just kind of sucks. They either need more people or new people with new ideas and a bigger picture focus.

> @Kichwas.7152 said:

> > @Sodeni.6041 said:

> > I think that everything that dungeons can offer could also be offered with fractals, also in a better way.

> >

>

>

> I feel the opposite. Fractals are a downgrade from Dungeons from a community point of view. Fractals split up a community into many different tiers that cannot game together effectively. Dungeons had 2 modes, story and explorable, and after running story just once - everyone is in the explorable tier.

>

>

> > @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> > I think eventually they'll cave to pressure from the player base and start making them again. Open world content is great but it's apples to the oranges of instanced content and it can't take the place of all dungeon content, nor can FoTM on its own.

>

> It's been 5 years of pressure and no results... They were very big on showing off their dungeons pre-launch... but they didn't expect the power-glass-cannon-stack-in-one-spot meta... and as soon as players figured it out Dungeons here became too easy because this game lacks the "trinity" outside of rads... this is why they forced a "duality, semi-trinity" onto raids...

>

> Rather than do that for Dungeons as well, they just gave up when they realized that Instanced constant with no 'trinity' or 'duality' (tank / DPS / Healer OR DPS / Healer) system... can't provide challenge.

>

Sure it can, it just requires proper iteration. This is essentially what they did with raids. Are you proposing that raids can't provide challenge?

I think eventually they'll cave to pressure from the player base and start making them again. Open world content is great but it's apples to the oranges of instanced content and it can't take the place of all dungeon content, nor can FoTM on its own.

They were misguided and shortsighted when they eliminated their dungeon team. Mo needs to do some reorganization of the teams, because he clearly doesn't have a broad enough distribution or enough resources dedicated to a number of areas in the game - skill design, instance development, lw1 reintegration, wvw, and guilds to name a few. There's no reason all of these areas should be suffering at the same time - that's just poor game/development management.

> @Dawdler.8521 said:

> Flexible is such a relative term. See those 10 people going down at once in the labyrinth? They sure arent running a dire/trailblazer mix, I can tell you that much. And they're not doing much dps when dead. Plus the rest have to sacrifice dps just to res - you cant do power dps while ressing, but your condis will still tick. So yeah, its more flexible.

Thanks for the rant I guess, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with my question. I'm not trying to quantify offense vs defense, I'm trying to quantify the way the different offensive attributes contribute to condition builds vs direct builds.