Shroud.2307

Guardian, because it has 3+ meta/off meta builds in all areas of the game, and all specs are utilized. Pretty sure it's the only class that has 1 - 2 meta builds per area of the game for _each_ spec and not just for one or two. The only exception being roaming in WvW because Guard is a mediocre roamer, but Dragonhunter and core are both at least decent.

> @"God.2708" said:

> 2.52 damage modifier (That is absolutely bonkers if I'm being honest post feb patch) Edit: On test of faith.

>

> 4000 Power, 1100 Weapon Power, let's throw out a 3.5 damage modifier (not hard, 2.5ish from crit alone), and hit a minstrel guardian with no damage reduction up.

>

> 4000 * 1100 * 2.52 / 3500 = 3168

> 3168 * 4.0 = 11,088

>

> So yeah, a 12,505 hit is super easy against someone without full toughness gear on.

Just last night I took a 6k hit from Test of Faith. That isn't a lot, but when adding the context that I was playing Prot Holo with 2.4k armor, and while having Protection I have 40% damage reduction... That's kind of crazy. Pretty much nothing hits me for more than 3k when I have Protection on that build and Test of Faith did double that.


SurprisedPikachu

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > @"FalconRN.6219" said:

> > > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > > > @"Calisanna.8732" said:

> > > > Maybe all the homeless sos players from the “DiSbAnD SeA oF SoRrOwS” thread can find a home on DH

> > > > Haha

> > >

> > > Aye. Tired of your fight server maguuma ending up in t4? Come to DH, where you can fight AND not be in t4.

> > >

> >

> > wait isn't DH in t4 for 2 whole weeks haha?

>

> Shh dont tell mag what theyre in for.


Thinking.jpeg

**LONG POST INC.**

I am a very easily entertained and go with the flow kind of person. There are criticisms I have about WvW, and complaints others have that I either agree with or can relate to. In general however, I enjoy WvW for what it is, and playing with friends or a community have a bigger impact on that feeling than WvW itself.

**What makes WvW stale for me isn't WvW, but the players.**

_________________________________________________________

* Guilds that play 70/30 Support/DPS, farm pugs and are nigh untouchable by

* Players that roam in groups of 5 - 10+ that have no respect for people playing alone

* People with no creativity of their own that only play what's best in a mode _(WvW)_ that it hardly matters

* Players that sit in objectives 24/7 constantly manning siege waiting for someone to pass by so they can shoot them

* People who make it their business to put Commanders down until they detag because they don't agree with how they lead

>> **Everyone is entitled to play as they like, don't mistake this for a "I don't agree with what they do so it's wrong" kind of thing.**

I find guilds that play heavy support to be boring and frustrating because they are near untouchable by pugs yet they put themselves in the way of said pugs. Players are forced to deal with this guild _**(and many play this way)**_ but have no chance of stopping it and it just becomes a circle jerk of how many kills they can farm.

On the flipside, I can respect a group that's co-ordinated enough that pugs can't pick them apart, and I think it's a good thing if a guild is needed to take down a guild. The problem arises when a guild stacks supports because support builds are so bloated that they can just facetank everything and it stops being about co-ordination so much as it is that the pugs have none.

Roaming and small scale has become significantly more punishing over the years for a variety of reasons. At least on NA, very, very few "true" solo roamers still exist, and many of the ones that do are forced to play one of two things; Thief or Ranger.

Groups that roam in larger numbers and don't actually do anything other than lurk in high traffic areas or body singles are a huge part of why roaming sucks. It's hard enough to get anything done when you're alone, then you add a group to the problem that will throw a single player at you to keep you in combat or force some cooldowns before the cavalry shows up and it just becomes lame.

The only players that will provide actual fights are all in a group, so you can't have a good 1v1/X and instead get harassed by numbers you can in no way handle. Outside of having a good fight, there's nothing else you can reliably do because of Mounts and Tactics.

There are _so many_ possibilities with builds in this game and yet 90% of the playerbase has 0 creativity. It's the same 3 - 5 things over and over again that only changes when the meta changes.

Playing things that are good is one thing- it's reasonable to want to use something that's effective if you're playing outside of a zerg- but I'll never understand why people can't at least make builds their own or make something entirely unique. It is _so boring_ to fight clones all day.

This is a huge one for me.

As I'd already said, playing alone is hard enough as it is. Mounts and Tactics force you to get things done fast or you'll be overwhelmed _(zerged)._ Then you have players like this that literally refuse to fight beyond the border of their objective but will happily sit inside it shooting you with what ever siege reaches and will summon the zerg when you head for a camp.

If you get spotted by even one person when passing an objective you can bet money they're waiting until you're outnumbered or your back is turned before they try to fight you.

I get it, not everyone is confident in their fighting ability, and some people care about playing the PPT game. But what exactly is the purpose of shooting people at Sentry's with a Ballista or Cannon?

And lastly, bullies. Commanders are few and far between as it is. Less and less people are willing to do it because like roaming, it has become less and less rewarding/fun and more frustrating. Veterans continue to die out and fewer and fewer players stick around long enough to reach that status with enough knowledge to command themselves. Then you add people who criticize Commanders over their every move and backseat so much you'd think they'd command themselves, but when offered the option they refuse.

Telling a Commander what they're doing wrong if they're newer is fine if you know what you're talking about, but the delivery matters. There is no reason to be telling people to uninstall because their zerg wiped or to be generally unpleasant because you don't agree with their decisions.

Be supportive of the Commanders you enjoy and don't follow the ones you don't. Often people will get the hint if no one is following and that should be plenty enough wound for them to lick without someone(s) putting them down to worsen the matter.

After having saved up enough gold, looking at some videos on Youtube and asking someone in game to show me how it looks to be absolutely sure I wanted it, I bought Vial of Liquid Auriliam for 2k gold.

... And then I find I can't apply it to anything and have to ask around why I can't. Turns out you can't use it with Ascended/Legendary gear, much to my disappointment.

I understand I could just swap out one piece for an Exotic and I would lose minimal stats, but I don't want to do that. The plan was to apply it to my Legendary backpiece so I could use it on multiple builds while still changing the stats of that piece of equipment.

Since I couldn't do this, I said nevermind and put it back on the Trading Post. Now I'm probably going to have to wait quite some time before it sells.

I know ANet doesn't exactly frequent these forums, but if any dev's see this, could you give me a reason as to why this is? If applying Cosmetic Infusions to Ascended/Legendary gear could be exploited or something, then I might understand. But as is, I don't quite get this and it's a little upsetting. It's my own fault for not doing more research before making such a large purchase, but it doesn't state this anywhere on the Wiki anyway.

How many characters do you have in mostly/full Ascended and/or Legendary?

> @"LionZero.3479" said:

> You are correct, my mistake it doesn't work on barrage on enemies and siege behind a gate.

Np! I had to double check after reading that because I remembered there's a delay between hits. I was thinking it may not have been proc'ing as much as I thought because I don't play Ranger as much as I used to.

> @"LionZero.3479" said:

> You know someone doesn't play ranger when they say OWP works on barrage lol

Here's a .gif I made for you. Look at the golems and you can see the claw marks from OWP. I put my stats in the left corner of the screen to show that I _am not_ full Berserker. This can do a lot more damage, especially if receiving buffs from others.

I use this for open world stuff. Probably doesn't have the greatest DPS in like, "actual" content- that being Raids, Fractals, etc., but it's plenty good otherwise.

I mob surf with this on HoT/PoF maps, mostly Drizzlewood. I can literally farm that bridge all day if I want to, and half the mobs there are Elites.

Lots of Quickness, CC's, cleave, moderate mobility and defense. I don't do any other PvE but I understand going full Berserker would be better, and that this build is unlikely to be good if you're trying to get optimal DPS numbers, but I don't feel it's bad otherwise. I have a frigging blast with this build and everything combos smoothly. You could swap out certain traits and utilities to be less defensive if you wanted, like going with Grenades + Bomb Kit, maybe even Mortar Kit too, and go full Berserker, but if you want to be soloing stuff and YOLOing huge mobs or Champions like I do, the defenses are helpful.

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> Its not really game changing damage now is it.

Might be a poor argument given Rangers aren't very good/are unwanted in zergs, but OWP + Barrage can pretty easily push a 30k AOE.

It isn't as good as Meteor Shower because single hits don't do much damage, but if used in a choke it is absolutely lethal for most who get caught in it even if it's the only thing hitting them. I've seen my own OWP/Barrage combo's go as high as 40k+- granted the Retaliation damage does nearly as much to myself, lol.

As for the OP, this is one of those things I don't really have a strong opinion about. With all the nerfs Soulbeast has gotten in recent times however, it's getting to the point where the difference between Soulbeast and core Ranger is minimal. Kind of feels like Ranger 2.0 minus a pet right now. And as much as I dislike the spec at times, I think it's pretty close to being at a good spot balance-wise. The boonbeast build is probably better with core right now, and without OWP + "Sic 'Em!" its damage isn't much better than core either.

Anything that awards Volatile Magic is good because you can buy Shipments with it. Cloth, Wood, Leather, etc.

This one awards various T6 materials which is what I usually purchase. Unbound Magic has something similar, but it's more of a mixed bag and generally less profitable.

I keep Istan track on repeat because I need Kralkatite Ore for Corsair Tuning Crystals and because I can consume any excess for Volatile Magic.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Shroud.2307" said:

> > > Why are you joining parties that are specifically asking that you don't?

> > >

> > > You're not teaching anyone anything by disrespecting their requests. It's ignorant and borderline griefing. Start your own party and tell people you'll teach them how good Necro can be. I'll bet it'll be real popular.

> >

> > Obviously, it's always a matter of point of view but where does the disrespect start? When someone enter a group that look for a different profession or when a group refuse a profession based on prejudice? From my point of view it's disrespect only to narrowminded people, for broadminded people it's an opportunity to learn that there is more than what the rigid meta let you see. Experienced players can teach and can be taught, this is how you make progress. Refusing to teach or to be taught is how you end up roting.

> Unfortunately this point of view fails in face of reality, so why even trying? It's just a waste of time.

>

> Narrowminded people will always look for simple answers and copypasting metabuilds is a simple answer. Just leave these people alone - in videogames and in reality.

For clarity in case I'm being misunderstood here, I agree that people shouldn't be closed minded about classes/builds. As I'd said, I often prefer to play what I find most fun over what's best. If I'm joining a group regardless of content, I will change class/build if I'm asked - if I don't feel like doing that, I'll start my own group.

I suppose it wasn't the point of the thread though, so I shouldn't have said anything in the first place. I've just experienced people trying to force their way in to groups before and know how annoying it is.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Shroud.2307" said:

> > Why are you joining parties that are specifically asking that you don't?

> >

> > You're not teaching anyone anything by disrespecting their requests. It's ignorant and borderline griefing. Start your own party and tell people you'll teach them how good Necro can be. I'll bet it'll be real popular.

>

> Obviously, it's always a matter of point of view but where does the disrespect start? When someone enter a group that look for a different profession or when a group refuse a profession based on prejudice? From my point of view it's disrespect only to narrowminded people, for broadminded people it's an opportunity to learn that there is more than what the rigid meta let you see. Experienced players can teach and can be taught, this is how you make progress. Refusing to teach or to be taught is how you end up roting.

You're not allowed to wear shoes in my house.

But I can show you the benefits of wearing shoes in the house.

Then do it at your own house.

But I want to show _you._

I understand the frustration of being excluded from groups just for the class you play, I've experienced it personally, but trying to force people to open their minds is like a Jehovah's Witness coming to your door.

People are entitled to exclude you if they want because you have equal freedom to do the same. It would be different if as a Necro you were unable to start your own groups or to form a group, but that isn't the case.

I just want to go on record and say that I always play what I find most fun. I don't care what the meta is. But if I'm not wanted in a group for what I'm playing, be it PvE, PvP or WvW, I will respect that not because I understand how my class/build fails to bring value to their group, but because of courtesy.

> @"silent killer.5732" said:

> Man I've been helping people left and right from t1 to t4 who's struggling in any sort of fractals runs and there's the meta heads who thinks only a certain class can work and certain class can not be nothing but a player who wants to lay and pray to be carried.

> My necro can go cdps pdps and hsc all at full capacity and I found myself carrying the party I'm in even though I mostly join parties who asked specifically a certain class not a necro.

> I feel like the community needs to be little bit educated about what the necro can offer

> They all think the necro is only good for pulling and surviving and aoe with epidemic

Why are you joining parties that are specifically asking that you don't?

You're not teaching anyone anything by disrespecting their requests. It's ignorant and borderline griefing. Start your own party and tell people you'll teach them how good Necro can be. I'll bet it'll be real popular.

If yall can't hit anything with it, it's not the Hammer that's bad. Keep singing that song of woes and why me's though, I'm sure it'll help.

99% of you on the Rene bandwagon cuz anything that uses more than 2 brain cells is too much effort. Bet.

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Shroud.2307" said:

>

> > Shortbow and Mace can both work, so I'm not saying they're useless or won't do damage. Hammer is just flat out better for the spike and range it provides even if compared to Shortbow its DPS may be a bit less _(which I'm not certain of. Hammer may actually still be more)._ I don't think Mace is even a question unless you're full Condi and the zerg you're against is bad enough to let your Condi's tick.

>

> You think that an enemy zerg able to cleanse conditions can't see the telegraphed 1.75" cast of Drop the Hammer? Also, Phase Smash: one thing was spamming CoR when actually did damage and didn't cancel itself when you move beyond 30º while the animation, and another entirely diferent animal is try to land hammer #3 once each 12 seconds while the enemy farts aegis. And I'm not saying that the short bow is great (I think that there's better classes and weapons for the pirate ship meta), I'm just saying that currently the hammer feels to me as wielding 5 useless skill slots, at every game mode, with no exceptions.

I've never experienced Phase Smash being blocked by every player when hitting a group of players. Maybe one or a few, but not all. 9 times out of 10 it will hit all of them, especially if I'm using Shiro instead of Jalis _(which brings less utility, but still has value)_ because I'll often use CoR and Phase Smash with Impossible Odds for the boost.

I'm not disagreeing that Hammer isn't great. After all the nerfs it has gotten it is nothing compared to what it used to be, but it's still BIS for zerging and still capable of doing huge damage.

The increased cooldown on CoR really hurt it because randomly using it or Phase Smash outside of a bomb is often a waste. Before you could use it more freely so long as you were aiming it properly. Now you may miss the opportunity to create a bomb because the cooldown is higher and you don't have any filler skills. You're basically left to spam reflectable autos and occasional Phase Smashes.

With all the nerfs to CoR I think it would be fine to reduce the cooldown again to like, 5 or 6 seconds. It's a lot less reliable and does a lot less damage than it used to _(but it still does plenty of damage, don't get me wrong)_ so I don't think giving it back its old cooldown would be an issue.

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > Hammer will be used until it is removed from the game :

> > 1. Because it is the longest ranged Power based weapon.

> > 2. Revenants have literally nothing else which can match it for its intended use of Ranged Power damage.

> >

> > Some people might go like "durr but Shortbow" but durrr Shortbow doesn't even come close to Hammer when it comes to zoning range and striking power for POWER damage.

>

> Disagree. In a train chain melee group, both mace and short bow are stronger, because mace is way faster and cleaves better, and shortbow with the piercing trait and brutality is way more effective than any cc from the hammer. And in a ranged group, chances are that you'll be running a Necro if you want AoE damage, not a hot garbage hammer Revenant. Also, if you're ganked while trying to reach your zerg and one of your weapons is a hammer, you're dead (even if ganked by an enemy healer; that kitten can't 1 v 1). Hammer is a joke at every game content (as much as it hurts: I started maining Guardian in 2012 with gs + hammer and swapped to Rev with hammer + sword & shield in HoT, and is depressing to look at the state of both hammers in both classes in 2020) .

Shortbow is not going to spike for 10k+ damage in a single hit. It may have better DPS, but its only cleaving skill _(not including the #5 CC)_ is multi-hit meaning many times players won't be taking all that damage before they move.

Mace is a short range melee weapon with moderate Power scaling. Even full glass it isn't going to do as much damage as... Well, I think every other weapon? If you're going to frontline melee with a bad melee weapon then all you're doing is giving some Boons, most of which can be provided by other classes.

The purpose of Hammer Herald is ranged spike damage. It drops its' heavy hitters on clumps of players _(ideally when you use Hammer 5)_ when your group has locked them down.

Shortbow and Mace can both work, so I'm not saying they're useless or won't do damage. Hammer is just flat out better for the spike and range it provides even if compared to Shortbow its DPS may be a bit less _(which I'm not certain of. Hammer may actually still be more)._ I don't think Mace is even a question unless you're full Condi and the zerg you're against is bad enough to let your Condi's tick.

> @"SunTzu.4513" said:

> Another point is that a lot of necro players are just not good at playing the class.

I notice this as well. Speaking from a PvP/WvW perspective, I encounter _far_ less Necros that actually know how to play the class in comparison to _literally every other class._

Necro, along with Warrior and Ranger, have the lowest skill floors. They're easy to pick up and do well with without learning much about the actual class, and against average players, to succeed with minimal effort.

They can be played at a high skill level as can any other class, but these 3 in particular are very forgiving and/or simplistic for beginners. For that reason I think many people won't bother learning how to play the class at a higher skill level because the basics will often get them by.

I'm not educated enough in general PvE, Raids, or high level Fractals to say how difficult Necro is in those areas, but because Necro has been unwanted and/or suboptimal for most of the games' life, I believe that's another reason many that play Necro in PvE won't bother to improve with it.

With that said, a good Necro is usually pretty scary. Having as much Boonhate as it does, combined with high health and potential for heavy AOE pressure, experienced Necros make a huge difference in groups and can be very difficult to fight in 1 on 1's.

Personally I feel that Necro is on the higher end of the skill ceiling _(albeit not the highest, I'd say that honor goes to Thief and Engineer)_ because it's so easy to tell a good Necro from a bad one. There are so many quirks and details that can make all the difference if you know how to take advantage of them, and so many ways to counter skills both pre-emptive and reactive.

You can still do things with a small group, it's just that there's a lot more effort involved and a lot less reward _(unless it's the challenge that rewards you)._

Many changes over the years, primarily that of passive upgrades and Mounts, have made small scale/solo game play a lot more difficult, but none of the changes made have made it impossible. The problem is that if you want to accomplish anything you need to be very knowledgeable and patient, which means for anyone who's new to doing this it will be extremely punishing and generally unenjoyable.

Most people will conclude that playing without a large group isn't worth the hassle and thus the already small community of roamers/havoc groups continue to shrink.

If you want to do things with a small group you just need to accept that the effort/reward ratio is heavily slanted toward effort, and if you don't know what you're doing there will be no reward.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> That is you getting punished for engaging 1 v 3 then 1 v 5 and any class w/o stealth doesn't have that huge bailout. So they add this easy avoidable mechanic to hinder you or you would die get caught even less. You basically are complaining your kill death ratio drops from 50-1 to 40-1 and you have to be aware of your surroundings for an npc that might turn a 1 v 3 fight disregarding the fact that you fight all day 1 v 3 and get kills and run off all day and we can't do anything but waste our time and that's cool but dying once in a while to you isn't.

Omg, fking _thank you._ I been saying this, lmao.

I do agree with people that Watch Tower could use a rework, and I understand how it can be unenjoyable for a Thief to have to play around it... But having a basic sense of awareness is all you need to avoid it. You know, what everyone else needs to have if they don't want to get +1'd at a bad time.

Lmao, I stand by my comment. And I still play core too :P.

Loved that intro. Not sure how I feel about Carrion, but it gives me some ideas for a WvW build. Good stuff, I enjoyed!

Borderland Hills is also my favorite spot to do this. If you jump far enough sometimes you can pull people from the cliff opposite the keep.

I may have spoken too soon.

Seems I didn't give the build enough of an honest try because I had a lot more success with it recently. As I'd said in the OP, you basically have to play it as core Engineer until the right time to burst presents itself. I found the best percentage of Heat to be at before combat is 90% as it is enough to get off a Corona Burst and/or Holographic Shockwave before Overheating which you can follow up with Jump Shot. If you combine Jump Shot, Corona Burst's second attack, and the Overheat all in one it will be a multi-hit of well over 30k.

There may be better ways to build it for better damage, but I think what I've made offers enough utility to consider it an actual _(non-meme)_ build.

I'm going to keep playing with this for a while to see what it can do because as of right now I feel it has a lot of potential. If anyone else has played/is playing something similar please chime in with your experiences and thoughts. I'm really enjoying this and would like to brain storm with others.

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> Let's just ignore entire traitline, as well as stealth attacks like backstab and utilities and pretend stealth is not thief mechanic. Show me another class that has entire traitline and mechanics that are focused on stealth. What, none? Yeah. Thought so.

>

> "Stealth is a tool that Thief has an abundance of to compensate for its low base HP and low access to blocks and invulnerability. It isn't needed for a Thief to survive or to fight, it just improves their ability to do so" - you just contradicted yourself withing 2 sentences. Did you even read what you wrote? So it is ok that thief has way lower chance to survive due to debuff but other classes don't suffer from it? Interesting.

>

> Stealth attack is not only reason why you want stealth. As you stated yourself, thief does nearly no invulnerability or blocks. If i wanted to survive some hard hitting attack or combo on guard i would just use block or invul heal - i cannot do it on thief. I have to sit in stealth to mitigate that damage. Also, you forget that ini regen and health regen is also bound to stealth.

>

> If you are so bothered by 1 shot thieves then stealth is not issue but rather between chair and monitor. I can do one shot on a lot of classes, just need to build for just as much as thief does. Really. Once again, you guys run zerg builds and complain that you die to thief builds built around solo roaming. That is like bringing pvp build to raid and complaining that you get kicked for doing nearly no damage.

Nope, it ain't. Engi, Mesmer, and Ranger have had access to Stealth for just as long as Thief. Crazy that Thief has so many mechanics though, almost like they have other ways to survive.

"Way lower" is not what I said. You are projecting.

Yes it's okay, because it has the mobility to escape being Marked at a seconds' notice. Literally no one else is going to want to, or in most cases be able to, fight right in front of objective gates or while Marked for more than a few seconds because they'll get overwhelmed by +1's. Thief on the other hand can choose to leave when ever it pleases with few things that can stop it. Mobility and Stealth are things that make Thief a favored roaming class because it has the ability to choose when/where it wants to fight over the vast majority of things it will encounter. You may not camp Stealth and wait for the right time to engage while Marked, but you still have the option to disengage until you're out of Marked range.

> All Marked does to Thieves is force them to play by the same rules as the rest of the classes- don't get Marked unless you have enough back up to deal with what responds to it.

Stealth does not mitigate damage or regenerate health. These are things that Shadow Arts provides, a tree heavily geared toward survival. It is not mandatory and is not the only thing that provides defensive options. It cushions your game play by allowing you to sit in Stealth when you've made a mistake or if you want to avoid a fight, the latter of which can be done with mobility.

I'm not bothered by Thieves at all. Most threads complaining about them I defend them and I'm probably one of the few who isn't bothered by Deadeye. Marked is a different story however because I'm sick of Thieves acting like it only effects _them_ when it actually it effects everyone. No one wants to fight while Marked because it's too easy to get overwhelmed while you're visible on the map but Thief doesn't need to care about this. It has the mobility to get away if it needs to so it can overstay its welcome. You can ignore your surroundings and play like a complete ignoramus because you can just Stealth and run away if you got too greedy.