UmbraNoctis.1907

Dual Axe is great for open world/story PvE and to some extent even viable for grp content (just slightly less dps than sword/axe). Why is not popular? I can only guess, but it might be because many ranger players associate the class with bows, so that's what they use, even if it might not always be the most optimal. Ranger - even when built pretty inefficient - also tends to be fairly easy and safe to play, especially when using bow and a pet to tank aggro ("bearbow ranger"), so most people will be happy with whatever they came up with themselves, resulting in little to no demand for dedicated open world builds/guides.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > > > I don't know bout the rest of the stuff but I can assure u thief did far more damage in the past. Ur crazy 8k backstab was basically my low BS's and only required eagle and mauraders in conquest and in wvw a build built for power and just cs could do 14k on squishies. As we speak a cs/da/trick build with zerk and scholars now gets 8k or slightly more if u crit and opponent is squishy and meets hp criteria for executioner on top of might stolen. Couple yrs back that same build would give my 18k crits against squishies in conquest and 20k in wvw. > > > That said I'm definitely not saying thiefs damage is low by any means in today's version of gw2 but to say it does same damage as in the past is wrong. > > > > You did not get those numbers pre trait rework. After HoT yes, 14k backstabs were a thing and after PoF 20k+, but that's not what i'm talking about. > > Haha oh I assure u post pof I certainly did. > Core da/tric/cs with hidden data 213, tric 312 and cs 322 with scholars and zerk great in wvw often produced 20k crit backstabs when hitting squishies at half or lower hp and 16-18k at full hp :) 14k was doable with dd if u ran cs/zerk/scholar. Then damage nerfs kept coming in every patch, some where easily called like assassin sig, thief was still good at bursting. > This feb patch was a complete disaster for all classes, even more so for some. Not suprising population in pvp is trash compared to yrs ago. This type of build you are talking about didn't exist pre trait rework. You probably didn't play back then, otherwise you would know what i'm talking about.

Dagger/Focus LR Weaver didn't felt that bad vs druid, despite relative low amount of cleanses (and me being pretty bad at playing weaver). Good amount of cc, burst and projectile denial. I could often kill them fast enough, before running out of defenses. Condi druid tends to be weak vs cc and burst. Trying to brawl and "burn" it slowly usually won't work because of the high sustain it has and the longer the fight goes the more likely you end up getting stuck in the roots without a way out. Key to survival is avoiding the ccs (there is not much else to dodge), stunbreaking before the roots spawn or (in case of daze) dodging the follow up dmg which would trigger the roots. Cleanses should be treated as "last-resort" in case avoiding the roots fails (which will inevitably happen), but not the first choice of defense.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > I don't know bout the rest of the stuff but I can assure u thief did far more damage in the past. Ur crazy 8k backstab was basically my low BS's and only required eagle and mauraders in conquest and in wvw a build built for power and just cs could do 14k on squishies. As we speak a cs/da/trick build with zerk and scholars now gets 8k or slightly more if u crit and opponent is squishy and meets hp criteria for executioner on top of might stolen. Couple yrs back that same build would give my 18k crits against squishies in conquest and 20k in wvw. > That said I'm definitely not saying thiefs damage is low by any means in today's version of gw2 but to say it does same damage as in the past is wrong. You did not get those numbers pre trait rework. After HoT yes, 14k backstabs were a thing and after PoF 20k+, but that's not what i'm talking about.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > The thief and the other players arent very good. Of course he is able to enter and exit stealth more often than normal. But even with 4 might, thats a lot less damage. > He is stealthing less than what most thieves would do. Could very easily get up to 10+ might. > > > At 15%, not always, but 10+%? Usually. That with Flanking Strikes is 15%. It wasnt the reason Trickery was mandatory, no. But it was a lot of damage. Damage the thief was missing out on. > > > > Players were usually not running flanking strikes, because you'd have to give up more important stuff. > > > > Quite a few were. Thrill of the crime wasnt as important back then, especially with the rune choices. Yea right, who needs fury and swiftness anyway ... Certainly not someone who wants to deal dmg and be mobile. > > > > > > > Oh yeah, lesser haste used to be in CS not Trickery. You could be right. But then he is still missing DA, and all the damge from it. But if he had DA he would be missing CS and all the dmg from it. So what then? > > > Today you could run DA (with exe) + CS for more dmg, poison and immob, and a much better SA line as well as better base steal (45s cd, just lol). Or either DA or CS for similar dmg, a much better SA line and well, "mandatory" TR. Or drop SA as that wasn't really meta back then anyway and run DA,CS and TR. Lots of dmg. Or just go with the meta build which is much better than all of those - and takes a traitline that didn't even exist back then. > > You cant run CS. Its *bad*. It turns off way too easily. But even if you could, itd be *less* damage, *less* poison (more on this later) and *less* immob for no actual benefit. Also, Trickery was mandatory. Steal was never 45 second cd. And sure, you could run DA/CS/TR. It would still be a lot less damage. > > > > > > > > Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil). > > > > > > > > > > On other classes? Maybe. For thief, the only skills that were combined were the ones noone ever used. Trickery is basically the same (moved the steal reduction from the stats you got, which is baseline, to a minor trait, which is baseline), DA was basically the same, and Daredevil isnt any of them. So no, not really. You get about half a trait. > > > > > DA had less dmg modifiers (max 15% ?), it was mainly run for panic strike. Now you can get exe, and still ~6-10% from exposed weakness (potentially more, especially in a +1 situation) on top of that juicy immob. Crit dmg from CS is more or less baseline now, you get more fury and additional modifiers/crit now. SA buffed/traits merged. Acro idk - guess it kinda got replaced by DD which offeres similar defense and more dmg. TR was always strong so not much reasons to buff it further. Still got some minor indirect buffs with steal cd reduction and range increase. > > > > *WRONG*. DA had a lot more damage modifiers. It had 10% from exposed weakness, 5% from dagger training, 300 power from picking the traitline and if you really wanted more damage, vuln on crit. Plus of course mug. Now you get at most 4-6% from exposed weakness, dont get dagger training, and executioner, well, there is a reason improv was always picked over executioner. It only adds damage when it no longer matters. Crit strikes adds a lot less damage now. SA is the only one that improved. Acrobatics and TR got nerfed *hard*. Stats are baseline now. You can still get vuln (and might) from DA if you drop panic strike. Well, there is a reason executioner was a meta trait back then despite being in an - according to you - much worse traitline. So if the trait was worth picking back then and now there is another trait which is even better - how can both be worse than what you had back then? Logic nowhere to be found. TR did not get nerfed. > > > > > DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets. > > > > > > > > > > It cannot. I tried, but even on berserker scholar DA/SA/TR with a steal backstab 5.2k was the highest I could get. Hell, even pre-stacking Lead Attacks and steal backstabbing (completely unrealistic) I could only reach 6k. So I'll have to call bull on that one. DE is extremely unrealistic and can be disregarded. Also Shadow Shot got nerfed in its initiative cost. And its funny that you say "they get full benefits from stronger traits" even though thief traits are *weaker* now. Lead attacks? Nerfed. Mug? Nerfed. Thrill of the crime? Nerfed. Exposed Weakness? Nerfed in most situations. Oh and the second trait you can pick in DA is worse, because you cant pick a 5% damage up on daggers anymore. The damage isnt there. Because everything is a lot weaker. People already build for damage, and its just not much. Granted thief is still good, but thats not the point. > > > > > It can with executioner. And how did Lead attacks get nerfed? You are more likely to get 10%+ dmg out of it now. Mug only hits for slightly less - and can be used a little bit more often. You can now get both panic strike and executioner in one build as well as more modifiers overall. Thrill of crime did get buffed. SA buffed (a lot of "merged traits"). Steal and everything steal related indirectly buffed. DD is also an upgrade over core in many cases. > > > > As stated above, there is a reason executioner wasnt being run. So that damage is basically not relevant. As stated there is a reason why executioner was used back then. Youself brought up a video showcasing executioner dmg against low health targets and pretending it would be the dmg thief were hitting regulary. The trait is exactly the same now as is was back then, there just happens to be even better stuff now that didn't exist back then, that's why it isn't taken anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > > > > > > > > > Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs. > > > > > > > > > > I mean damage should be obvious. A suboptimal build using 30 points in SA does more damage than the optimal damage build right now with 3 offensive traitlines *despite* stats overall being lower. Survivability, well, you used to have better evades, more vigor uptime, a better feline grace, better mug, better utilities, better healing, I can go on. Utility, well, better utility skills and trickery traits. CC, Basilisk Venom used to be ridiculously much better. Sustain is the same as defense. The video shows *everything*. It shows a thief doing a lot more damage, while having more defenses (passive armour from SA) a lot more healing (Again, SA, you can see it tick for 300 per second), better CC (Even uses the tripwire, for some reason), better utility, etc. And again. Thats not a good thief. > > > > A suboptimal build taking SA and executioner deals about the same dmg then and now - but now you can also take TR in addition and SA is overall better. When building for maximum dmg (no SA neither then nor now) backstab and mug hit for about the same and overall dmg is higher. > > Completely incorrect. A suboptimal build taking SA before dealt a lot more damage than the optimal max damage build right now. When comparing the max damage builds between then and now, even if we ignore that CS is bad because it fails in realistic scenarios, right now the most you can get on backstab is like, 7k in the best scenario. In the old days? 10k+, easily. You did *way* more damage. Mug even moreso. Overall damage is a ***LOT*** lower now. > The highest i have ever been hit back then (in WvW!) was a 12k backstab and that was a one-time "all stars aligned" type of thing. 10k+ was extremely rare and only ever achieved by some signet meme builds. And that type of build can still get to those numbers. Considering backstab dmg itself got nerfed, there has to be more dmg from elsewhere. Hint: Don't look at SA. > > Better evades how? Dash > Core dodge. DD also offers more evasion that core d/p had back then. Can take daggerstorm for evade now, not an option back then. Feline grace? Not used by d/p afaik. Ofc s/d has more evade than d/p. Don't mix up builds. > > For evasion Dash is worse. Because if you get crippled and try to dodge, you can kiss your endurance regeneration goodbye. DD doesnt offer any additional evasion to D/P. Daggerstorm, sure, but then you have no CC. But Withdraw had a much lower cooldown, Signet of agility was much better. If you get immobilized and you try to dodge without dash - gl ... The mobility it offers also lets you get out of range of more skills with a single dodge, that's also some kind of "evasion". If it was bad it wouldn't be used. > > > Better utilities? Which? Shadow Step buffed, Blinding Powder buffed, Agility Signet removes more condis (at the cost of some endurance - but DD makes up for that), so overall better i guess as it wasn't used back then. Deceptions overall better, because now you can run cd reduction trait. Trickery was basically the same. Basi wasn't unblockable and didn't apply to allies, no life steal. > > Utility, not utility skills. Theyre different things. Basilisk Venom was unstunbreakable, and immobilised as well. It also stunned for longer. And otherwise, in terms of utility, thief now provides more of everything. Unbreakability was removed shortly after release. Immob is long gone too. It never stunned for longer, there was just a time when you got 2 charges for 1s each, so technically you could get 2s of stun but most of the time the 2nd stun would just override the first one. Now you can get even longer cc chain with allies arround. But yes, thief now provides more of everything, finally we can agree. > > > Passive armor got partially moved to gear. No dmg mitigation from DD traits. 45s cd on mug (now it would be 20s = double healing from that trait), less stealth = less healing from shadowy rejuvenation, despite higher heal per tick. No healing from life stealing. Garbage cc (tripwire was never worth a slot). Better utility? More like zero utility. No boonrip, no aoe basi venom, no unblockable cc, no aoe condi cleanse, less (aoe) stealth, less mobility. > > To gear thief doesnt use. So thats not there. Not sure what the second means. Trickery was still mandatory, so thats the wrong cooldown. Just as much stealth, not less. And ... wait are you comparing to *that* thief specifically? Yeah he was bad, and so was his build. You should compare it to a thief with an actually good build. He would have everything you mention, and better. Base armor is a bit higher now, doesn't need to run toughness gear. Or do you play naked? Would explain some stuff ... And you brought up **that** thief and literally said "This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief". You keep talking about dmg modifiers from DA and CS, healing/stealth from SA and TR while completely ignoring that you couldn't get all those things in one build back then. Now you actually can. > > > Indeed, that's not a good thief. A good thief back then would had a bit more dmg, but it would also have less survivability and still less utility (no daredevil and SA - both add a lot of survivability). If more dmg would be worth giving up SA and DD - thieves would do that now. Do they? > > > > "A bit more damage"? Try "more than twice as much". More utility too. Survivability is the only thing you could argue it might have less (except the fact that old thief had more sustain, evade and blind probably means even that isnt true). Also, you *cant* get more damage by giving up SA and DD. Theyre the max damage traitlines. In fact ironically here you shoot yourself in the foot, because in terms of actual defense, DA is better than SA, because Mugs healing is still really good, as is the extra instant weakness and improv. But SA does more damage, so its being picked. So yeah, they do. > More than twice as much? Ok, please show me those 20+ backstabs with the old trait system. I'm waiting ... Or wait, i just linked a video above, showcasing an actually good thief build from back then, so how about you take this and point out all those big numbers? Because for some reasons i couldn't find those moments. > > > > > > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). > > > > > > > > > > You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. > > > > > > > > Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ... > > > > > > > > > > It was an outlier because he kept getting facestabs instead of backstabs. The lowest his backstab hit was 4.7k on a Cele Engineer though. You hit a lot less than 4.7k on a celestial build right now. If you look at the fronstabs though, a lot of them wouldve hit for 6.3k or even higher. So it wasnt an outlier at all. It was the norm. > > > > Defensive amulets were frowned upon in dueling so i doubt he was fighting many if any cele builds in that vid. Chances are high that most of his opponents were running zerk. Also he is backstabbing the warrior for 3,9k, frontstabbing the engi for 2k, that would be a 4k backstab. Most of the time he is just autoattacking because he does not have enough initiative to do much else and it only works because his opponents are absolute garbage. The only time he is getting noticeable higher dmg is against sub 50% health because of executioner. Take exe now and you get the same results - with an overall much better package. > > Engineer and Thief have the same defense. The damage however was far apart. The engineer was 100% picking Celestial, or some other toughness amulet. He was frontstabbing the warrior for 3.9k, and we saw the backstab on the engineer later (Also crit is more than 100%). And yes, the thief plays badly, but even so, he *always* gets noticably higher damage. Take executioner now ,and you get *worse* results with an overall much *worse* package. > 3,9k vs warrior are clearly from the back. There is no way he would backstab for 8k without exe modifier when you look at his overall dmg. And since exe is irrelevant anyway (your words), so should be his numbers against sub 50% hp. And then he caps out at slightly above 5k backstabs. With a proper build (that had way less survivability) that would have been arround 6k maybe. Totally "more than twice as much dmg" yes. I'll stop here now because you are just repeating the same delusional nonsense while ignoring facts and these walls of text are getting out of hand.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. > > > > > > Theyre damage traitlines (well, more accurately SA and DD. Trickery is just mandatory) because you pick them for damage. You dont pick DA, because DD gives more damage. You dont pick Crit Strikes, because SA gives more reliable damage (seriously its so easy to lose all crit strikes modifiers). Those are the reasons crit strikes was *never* picked, and DA became replaced by DD respectively. > > > > How are those traitlines picked for dmg when you hit harder with other traitlines? Defense and utility is what those traitlines provide more than others, not dmg. > > Because you dont. DA actually does less damgage (thats why it was dropped), and CS only does more damage in theory. In praxis its damage modifiers are usually turned off, so you just do less damage in realistic scenarios going with CS. Why do you think SA was only picked once it *stopped* being a defense traitline, and why do you think DA was dropped for DD after its damage was lowered. DA was never dropped for DD, d/p thieves were typically using both. It was dropped for SA and SA is probably taken now because it offers utility and defense even without having to camp stealth 24/7. But there is no way it offers more dmg than DA. ~600 dmg on a single strike from stealth does not make up for the loss of mug and modifiers from DA (executioner). Or CS for that matter, even if you don't always get the full value out of those. > > > Also CS definitely had some occurence in competitive play back then, not to mention various "oneshot" meme builds. "Never" is simply not true. > > It didnt. DA had mug and damage, so it was mandatory. Trickery was still Trickery, so it was mandatory. The most CS mightve gotten is used as the 10 point one. But thats not a full traitline use. > There was a time when 10/30/0/0/30 (known as "executioner build") was meta alongside of 30/0/10/0/30 ("panic strike build"). You can see an example [here]( ). > > > > > > > Also ... > > > > "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. > > > > > > Oh yeah, it gave *1* stack of might when you enter stealth. Thats huge. Well, no, its practically nothing, but go ahead. > > > > > It would usually result in ~4 stacks which back then wasn't as irrelevant as it would be now. Ofc it is not much, but neither is the dmg you gain from SA now. > > > > No it wouldnt? You wouldve had to enter and exit stealth 4 times for that to happen. The fight was *long* over by that point. And no, the damage you gain from SA is a lot for thief. Its a flat 600 damage or so, which on a class where backstab does 4000-4500 damage on its own is a whole lot. You get less from DA. I said 4 stacks, because that's what the thief in your video has almost all the time - and he doesn't even use stealth that much. It was 2 stacks for 15 seconds, so you could actually stack up quite some more. > At 15%, not always, but 10+%? Usually. That with Flanking Strikes is 15%. It wasnt the reason Trickery was mandatory, no. But it was a lot of damage. Damage the thief was missing out on. Players were usually not running flanking strikes, because you'd have to give up more important stuff. > > > > > > > "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. > > > > > > > > > > Uh, no. You can get a full traitline from what you used to pick as a 10 point one, but you dont get a full extra one. Or you did a 20/20/30 split. That one was popular too. Anyway, no, you dont just "get to add CS now". So thats off. "Take DA instead of CS" ... you dont use CS, A, and B, no you cant get 6k+ backstabs with DA. Youre lucky to get 5k ones with DA. And what exactly are you gonna replace? DD? Then you do *less* damage. Trickery? Its *mandatory*. SA? Well then you do slightly more damage against squishies, less against those who have armour, and lose utility. Yeah doesnt work. > > > > Where did the thief in the vid get fury from if not from CS? > > Good question, not a clue. We know he is 30 in Shadow Arts because he was using a Shadow Arts Grandmaster. He is 30 in DA as well. Maybe he is using 10 points of CS? I dont remember if the crit on hit one was a minor in CS. Probably was. Thats still not full CS. Pretty sure the thief in your video is actually running 30 in crit strikes. Furious Retaliation (that's where the fury is from)/Furious Haste (quickness)/Executioner. He can't run more than 10 in DA, because he does not apply weakness (2nd minor trait) and he obviously does not run acro or trickery. Today you could run DA (with exe) + CS for more dmg, poison and immob, and a much better SA line as well as better base steal (45s cd, just lol). Or either DA or CS for similar dmg, a much better SA line and well, "mandatory" TR. Or drop SA as that wasn't really meta back then anyway and run DA,CS and TR. Lots of dmg. Or just go with the meta build which is much better than all of those - and takes a traitline that didn't even exist back then. > > > Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil). > > > > On other classes? Maybe. For thief, the only skills that were combined were the ones noone ever used. Trickery is basically the same (moved the steal reduction from the stats you got, which is baseline, to a minor trait, which is baseline), DA was basically the same, and Daredevil isnt any of them. So no, not really. You get about half a trait. > DA had less dmg modifiers (max 15% ?), it was mainly run for panic strike. Now you can get exe, and still ~6-10% from exposed weakness (potentially more, especially in a +1 situation) on top of that juicy immob. Crit dmg from CS is more or less baseline now, you get more fury and additional modifiers/crit now. SA buffed/traits merged. Acro idk - guess it kinda got replaced by DD which offeres similar defense and more dmg. TR was always strong so not much reasons to buff it further. Still got some minor indirect buffs with steal cd reduction and range increase. > > DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets. > > > > It cannot. I tried, but even on berserker scholar DA/SA/TR with a steal backstab 5.2k was the highest I could get. Hell, even pre-stacking Lead Attacks and steal backstabbing (completely unrealistic) I could only reach 6k. So I'll have to call bull on that one. DE is extremely unrealistic and can be disregarded. Also Shadow Shot got nerfed in its initiative cost. And its funny that you say "they get full benefits from stronger traits" even though thief traits are *weaker* now. Lead attacks? Nerfed. Mug? Nerfed. Thrill of the crime? Nerfed. Exposed Weakness? Nerfed in most situations. Oh and the second trait you can pick in DA is worse, because you cant pick a 5% damage up on daggers anymore. The damage isnt there. Because everything is a lot weaker. People already build for damage, and its just not much. Granted thief is still good, but thats not the point. > It can with executioner. And how did Lead attacks get nerfed? You are more likely to get 10%+ dmg out of it now. Mug only hits for slightly less - and can be used a little bit more often. You can now get both panic strike and executioner in one build as well as more modifiers overall. Thrill of crime did get buffed. SA buffed (a lot of "merged traits"). Steal and everything steal related indirectly buffed. DD is also an upgrade over core in many cases. > > > > > > "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > > > > > Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs. > > > > I mean damage should be obvious. A suboptimal build using 30 points in SA does more damage than the optimal damage build right now with 3 offensive traitlines *despite* stats overall being lower. Survivability, well, you used to have better evades, more vigor uptime, a better feline grace, better mug, better utilities, better healing, I can go on. Utility, well, better utility skills and trickery traits. CC, Basilisk Venom used to be ridiculously much better. Sustain is the same as defense. The video shows *everything*. It shows a thief doing a lot more damage, while having more defenses (passive armour from SA) a lot more healing (Again, SA, you can see it tick for 300 per second), better CC (Even uses the tripwire, for some reason), better utility, etc. And again. Thats not a good thief. A suboptimal build taking SA and executioner deals about the same dmg then and now - but now you can also take TR in addition and SA is overall better. When building for maximum dmg (no SA neither then nor now) backstab and mug hit for about the same and overall dmg is higher. Better evades how? Dash > Core dodge. DD also offers more evasion that core d/p had back then. Can take daggerstorm for evade now, not an option back then. Feline grace? Not used by d/p afaik. Ofc s/d has more evade than d/p. Don't mix up builds. Better utilities? Which? Shadow Step buffed, Blinding Powder buffed, Agility Signet removes more condis (at the cost of some endurance - but DD makes up for that), so overall better i guess as it wasn't used back then. Deceptions overall better, because now you can run cd reduction trait. Trickery was basically the same. Basi wasn't unblockable and didn't apply to allies, no life steal. Passive armor got partially moved to gear. No dmg mitigation from DD traits. 45s cd on mug (now it would be 20s = double healing from that trait), less stealth = less healing from shadowy rejuvenation, despite higher heal per tick. No healing from life stealing. Garbage cc (tripwire was never worth a slot). Better utility? More like zero utility. No boonrip, no aoe basi venom, no unblockable cc, no aoe condi cleanse, less (aoe) stealth, less mobility. Indeed, that's not a good thief. A good thief back then would had a bit more dmg, but it would also have less survivability and still less utility (no daredevil and SA - both add a lot of survivability). If more dmg would be worth giving up SA and DD - thieves would do that now. Do they? > > > > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). > > > > > > You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. > > > > Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ... > > > > It was an outlier because he kept getting facestabs instead of backstabs. The lowest his backstab hit was 4.7k on a Cele Engineer though. You hit a lot less than 4.7k on a celestial build right now. If you look at the fronstabs though, a lot of them wouldve hit for 6.3k or even higher. So it wasnt an outlier at all. It was the norm. Defensive amulets were frowned upon in dueling so i doubt he was fighting many if any cele builds in that vid. Chances are high that most of his opponents were running zerk. Also he is backstabbing the warrior for 3,9k, frontstabbing the engi for 2k, that would be a 4k backstab. Most of the time he is just autoattacking because he does not have enough initiative to do much else and it only works because his opponents are absolute garbage. The only time he is getting noticeable higher dmg is against sub 50% health because of executioner. Take exe now and you get the same results - with an overall much better package. > > Anyway, as for the rest, lets see. "10-30% damage reduction" yeah remember how I kept pointing out he had *30 points in SA*? Yeah that gave him 300 toughness, which is equivalent to a flat, unconditional 14% damage reduction. Oh but it gets worse. It *also* gave him 25% less damage taken in stealth. So yeah, he had more damage reduction. Couldve even had crit immunity if he went for a different grandmaster. "weakness", actually, that was nerfed. Used to be every time you applied poison, you applied weakness, with no cooldown. Now it has a 10 second cooldown. So less there as well. "More cleanses" yeah, I guess. Signet of Agility cleanses 2 more conditions. Thats the only change there is between them. "More boon rip", actually, *less*. Larcenous Strike got a lot worse in terms of boonripping. From a 4 initiative skill that rips two, at least 6 initiative to rip two. "more poison" a *lot* less actually. Choking gas used to apply 5 seconds of poison per tick. Now its 3. Also if you wanted to go full condi, dagger training. > Less dmg taken in stealth was a gm trait - couldn't take it in addition to the healing. Armor is partially baseline now, the rest does not compare to dmg reduction from DD. Weakness on poison got a 20s cd pretty early on. Also couldn't take it with full SA because you had to give up TR then. Crit immunity got added later (2017), don't think it existed before. d/p does not use larc. 2s more on choking does not make up for poison whenever attacking from stealth on a build with a ton of stealth. Application > duration, due to overabundance of cleanses. > "More stunbreaks" oh this one is funny. Once again, its a *lot* less stunbreaks. But the reason its a "lot" less rather than just less is stupid. Get this. Infiltrator's return *used to stunbreak*. Thats right, you could have a stunbreak ready for 2 initiative with sword pretty much always. Dumb isnt it? Anyway besides that its just that most of the stunbreaks used to have lower cooldown. "More mobility" once again its actually less. Another case of return nerfs, but also cooldown increases. Oh and IA now, but that one is too recent. "more evasion" oh boy. This one is *ludicrously* less. Feline Grace got obliterated, the initiative cost on flanking strike massively increased, cooldown on withdraw massively increased, Signet of agility doesnt restore nearly as much, yeesh Thief used to evade so much more. "about as much blind" yeah you may guess it. Its a lot less. Black Powder pulses less often, shadow shot costs more initiative, all that stuff. "same or more cc" less, actually. Basilisk used to stun for up to 3 seconds. Immobilise was way better. Etc.. "Similar or more healing" a *lot* less. Healing cooldown is up, effectiveness is down, passive healing is down, its so much worse. > Stunbreak on sword 2 got removed pretty early on. Also does not apply to d/p which you were talking about. The only stun break with lower cd was infiltrator signet,which was used offensively often anyway and lower cd on pretty much every other stunbreak and especially shadow step make more than up for this. And again you keep bringing up s/d even tho you were talking about d/p. 2 completely different builds. Dash adds a lot of mobility to d/p which it didn't had previously. Maybe s/d had better survivablity and mobility, but it also had lower dmg and were heavily relying on sigil procs. I know it was pretty op at some point, but most nerfs to it happened long ago. Hardly a good example for the overall power level back then. Also with acro + DD you probably still get similar defense with better offense. Pulsing blind from black powder was more relevant in PvE. Higher initiative cost on SS can be made up by initiative regen in stealth as well as shorter cd on blinding powder, as well as the higher dmg which makes it worth using. Don't remember basi stunning for 3s and wiki doesn't say anything about that either. I call bs on that one. Immob was way better ... against thief. Players - and especially thieves - were just weaker against it. The only heal cd that went up is withdraw, but it also used to heal for less and couldn't be traited. Only more passive healing when camping stealth 24/7. Current thief will most likely outsustain in actual combat because it has more/better access to stealth as well as life steal and heal on evade. Now i'm not a thief players, so i might not always be 100% accurate on every detail (still, most should be true), but when i look at my own class it is even clearer that old builds wouldn't stand the slightest chance against what is run today. Both defensively as well as offensively.

> @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Gotejjeken.1267" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > Ranger got just a massive buff by not getting nerf its just going to get a lot worst. > > > > > > > > Really? We literally dodged one patch. It had to happen eventually. In the view of most players, elementalists still have more builds that are viable in large scale gameplay despite the shout nerf. (Heck, ranger shouts aren't even classified as shouts anymore.) When tempest is nerfed down to druid-levels of irrelevancy, we can have a chat. These days druids are just immob-bots, something that doesn't really stick in the scrapper-heavy meta. > > > > > > > > Unless you're talking about roaming, in which case yes rangers have some stupid builds -- but so do most professions. This patch didn't really touch that. > > > > > > > > ~ Kovu > > > > > > > > edit - While not technically untrue, saying stuff like _rangers were buffed by proxy of not being nerfed_ is cynical and misleading. All of the stuff this patch addressed won't make rangers (noticeably) better at small skirmishes, nor worse at contributing more to a zerg. > > > > > > Duride got a massive buff from this update so yes. > > > > Care to elaborate on that? > > > > About the topic, it's simple. People play ranger as they expect a pet class to be good and/or mistakenly believe the pet will relieve some pressure and allow them to learn the game. The latter is only really true in PvE. People play thieves as they are essentially high damage glass cannons with about a million escape options. > > > > Neither class is particularly wanted in zerg play, and only slightly tolerated in small group play. If you are dying to a thief and weren't ganked, or dying to any ranger at all in general...you need to rethink how you play. > > As things stand tempest and druide where competing for a support root roll. Temepest allways had a step up on the support side as it had the ability to land 10 targets heals and clears. Now with this lost druide will be able to fill both the support roll and root roll (druide was better at rooting already). Druid was never competing with tempest in large scale combat, not for support and not for roots. It is subpar, not because of numbers but due to mechanics/design and that's still the same, so i doubt anything is going to change. Ancient Seeds is bad vs zergs, because you have little control over when and on whom it procs unless you never ever touch anyone, it will very rarely proc on more than one player, the roots get cleaved down fast and also only works vs targets without stab and those you might as well lock down with some hard cc. You are probably confusing it with a "root soulbeast" which has some uses in zergs, but that's more of a dps build than (defensive) support. > @"ASP.8093" said:What's the "correct" way to die in smallscale? Just don't die. Obviously :pensive:

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. > > Theyre damage traitlines (well, more accurately SA and DD. Trickery is just mandatory) because you pick them for damage. You dont pick DA, because DD gives more damage. You dont pick Crit Strikes, because SA gives more reliable damage (seriously its so easy to lose all crit strikes modifiers). Those are the reasons crit strikes was *never* picked, and DA became replaced by DD respectively. How are those traitlines picked for dmg when you hit harder with other traitlines? Defense and utility is what those traitlines provide more than others, not dmg. Also CS definitely had some occurence in competitive play back then, not to mention various "oneshot" meme builds. "Never" is simply not true. > > > Also ... > > "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. > > Oh yeah, it gave *1* stack of might when you enter stealth. Thats huge. Well, no, its practically nothing, but go ahead. > It would usually result in ~4 stacks which back then wasn't as irrelevant as it would be now. Ofc it is not much, but neither is the dmg you gain from SA now. > > "_Trickery for that sweet 15%_" Trickery didn't not had a dmg modifier back then > > *??????* Lead Attacks was a Trickery Minor Trait since day 1 of the game. It used to increase damage by 1% per initiative you had rather than spent, but it was still there. Also Flanking Strikes used to be Trickery, so its up to 20% actually. Seriously, I dont get how you could get *this one* wrong. That's why i wrote "didn't not" jk,i stand corrected on that one. Still how often would you be at full initiative to get the 15% bonus? Dmg was and is not the reason why TR is used. > > > "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. > > > > Uh, no. You can get a full traitline from what you used to pick as a 10 point one, but you dont get a full extra one. Or you did a 20/20/30 split. That one was popular too. Anyway, no, you dont just "get to add CS now". So thats off. "Take DA instead of CS" ... you dont use CS, A, and B, no you cant get 6k+ backstabs with DA. Youre lucky to get 5k ones with DA. And what exactly are you gonna replace? DD? Then you do *less* damage. Trickery? Its *mandatory*. SA? Well then you do slightly more damage against squishies, less against those who have armour, and lose utility. Yeah doesnt work. Where did the thief in the vid get fury from if not from CS? Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil). DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets. > > "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs. > > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). > > You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ... Similar is true for every other class.

SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. Also ... "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. "_Trickery for that sweet 15%_" Trickery didn't not had a dmg modifier back then "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Where did that thief get fury from if not from CS? 3. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg).

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > > > Can't argue about delusion ... > > No, you cant argue against numbers you know are right. Thief back then did *way* more damage than thief does now. Its not even close. Thieves didn't had way more dmg, they were **building** for more dmg. Big difference. Pick up crit strikes (and nowadays you don't even have to give up trickery unlike that poor fella in your vid), boom, 6k backstabs. Same dmg, more survivability/utility. And still worse than meta thief.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > In the end **cele ele was broken for few months before HoT launch** and people still ...whine about it..when some other professions have been broken/abused for years.....sad Nobody whines about cele ele, it is just a prime example of what results powercreep can have. > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > > > > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. > > > > That's not cele, they are both most likely zerk. The ele is FA. Which always had good burst. > > Yes, Berzerker Engineer with 18k hp. And a Fresh Air ele using the air attunement the *least* and bursting with fire. What the hell are you on about? Back then zerk amulet would grant vita stats and core FA's main burst skill is phoenix - a fire skill. > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. Can't argue about delusion ...

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. That's not cele, they are both most likely zerk. The ele is FA. Which always had good burst.

High impact skills with high cd/"cost" make timing and counterplay more important, which is a good thing. Low cd/impact just makes the game more "spammy".

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > Wierd though as half or more of the population has left since the de-powercreep phase :) I'm glad players with ur mind set are here to help anet with their ever growing pvp scene, ur guys nerf everything mentality had done wonders for this games pvp scene. Hopefully u they carry on further and u and like minded players can continue enjoying the pvp scene while it continues to steadily bleed players. Soon ull all be well acquainted as the small handful of players left in a yr or so will have the opportunity to get real close lol Questionable. There have been huge drops of player numbers in the past - to a large part related to the powercreep, resulting bad balance as well as the discontinuation of competitive events - and i doubt the remaining population would have survived another mass-exodus of similar extent. And yet there are still players playing somehow ...

> @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > The video shows more than 4 classes being played ... Also displaying bad diversity/balance pre nerf does not mean more powercreep is the way to go. The two biggest power spikes in this game have been pre HoT spec update - which resulted in cele d/d ele dominating like nothing else has ever done (teams were stacking 4-5 of them ... and winning) - and HoT release, when teams would run double chrono and double rev and the 5th spot was probably only filled by another class because of their newly implemented "no more than 2 of each class per team" rule. Most diversity in competitive play you have seen afterwards was forced by the no-class-stacking-rule, something that wasn't deemed necessary in the past, and not the result of balance. Are balance and diversity great right now? No. But there has been times where it was much worse, so the direction they are heading is probably not completely wrong.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > This! > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this.

> @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. This! Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good.

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > that isn't a group composition lol. it's what smallfolk that still even cares to defend outer objectives like camps. it's rather questionable that roamerpacks exist in these days. you guys only look for the cheap ganks, and then argument "uh but u could run a full roamergroup on spvp sets, so we cannot gank you".... imagine if NPC damage was buffed to constant supervior-invuln power. you thief people would be the first to make twenty raging cry-postings, since u cannot sustain that :P What? Few players taking on larger numbers equals "only looking for cheap ganks" and "shouldn't exist", but a zerg running over a small grp is a matter of skill, coordination, teamplay ...? Logic hello, where are you? Also how does making NPC invulnerable fit into this? Your posts do not make any sense whatsoever.

> @"Clownmug.8357" said: > Yeah, lets make this thing take hours of work even though all the effort can be erased in 5-10 minutes by a random blob. As if upgrading structures requires "work and effort" ...

> @"baking.1047" said: > > @"Vavume.8065" said: > > > @"SexyMofo.8923" said: > > > This rarely ever happens. > > > > This ^ and calling for changes based on something that rarely happens really does not carry much weight. > > I think this is part of the problem with wvw, people don't defend anymore. WvW was originally part pve part pvp. Now I guess it is all pvp? The objectives are just there to take if the squad/group gets bored or can't find fights? It is sad that defending "rarely ever happens". This does not make much sense. Defending always involves PvP, so if that's what most players are looking for, they would defend. What's more likely the case is that players are looking for easy rewards and (back-) capping paper structures (=PvE) often provides same or even more reward for less effort. That's true for a lot of things in WvW. The correlation between effort/risk and reward is completely out of whack - which i guess is what this thread is pointing at. And any suggestion to change something about that - no matter whether it would make sense or not - is going to face a lot of resistance, because many players got used to their basically free rewards and won't want to give those up.

Smokescale during HoT beta and a few days after launch. 30k+ Smoke Assault ftw!

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > why? its simple: pve. our pve overlords complained about condis not being viable. true enough. biggest of all the brain moves: anet removes caps in all modes and never considers why that would be a really bad move. result: years of bad balance. And guess what was before those condi changes? Exactly the same complaints. No matter how strong or weak condis actually are - the complaints are always the same. And it is and never has been a balance issue - it is an issue with player perception. There are always some outliers, but overall condi and power dmg are pretty balanced. If anything, power is and has been stronger by trend.