viquing.8254 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > Sigh, how much clueless I will have to read today.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > While Signet of Illusion is a low skill ceiling utility rewarding shatterspam and reduces punish for shatter cd wastes. > > > > > > > > Ok at this moment, you just lose the few credibility I gave to you. > > > > > > > > Did YOU really wrote this ? Like seriously ? Signet of illusion is low skill ceiling now ?! (You think 2 sec that some mes spamming shatter and signet can still win against someone ?) > > > > > > > > Did you just know why SoIl is used currently ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch: > > > > > > > Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you really don't get it. > > > > > > It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge. > > > > > > There is currently uses cases who used it : > > > > > > - Misha condi/boonclear mirage build. > > > > > > - Signets builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : > > > > > > - It's used to F2 bursting when needed. > > > > > > - It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed. > > > > > > - It's used to F4 when pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear. > > > > > > And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail. > > > > > > This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away. > > > > > > Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges. > > > > > > Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed. > > > > > > Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You just seems like a inquisition fanatic : > > > > > > > > - You don't like someone, it's a sorcess, burn it ! => mesmer use something : it's low skill ceiling, nerf it ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Continue your crusade and brainwashing until mesmer has 90% dead things if you want, you just lose your time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 > > > > > > > > > > F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needes to use the Siget to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. > > > > > > > > I never think I will read a bravan post asking for reducing skill ceiling. > > > > BTW buff mes ! > > > > > > I added some stuff to the previous post you quoted here but your response is so facepalm and far away from any understanding of what i said, it hurts. > > > Keep your one dodge then and be limited in the need to use that Signet on every single Mirage build and only have one semi viable Mirage build anyway. Your choice! > > > > > > Also all classes got nerfed (some are still overperforming in sustain what hopefully will get adjusted soon too). You have to put a 2 dodge Mirage into post patch environment and i am telling you that a 2 dodge Mirage without any adjustments at other places will be op post patch, most likely even on power. While the f4 reset on Signet of Illusion is in general too strong, also on core. But with Mirage having only one dodge you cannot even change it atm because it would kill any Mirage build, means the only single one that is semi playable as a portal and debuff bot mostly depending on core abilities then rly being a Mirage with different playstyle from core. Even without f4 reset the Signet would be a good choice for Mishas build because of all the other synergy you described yourself (synergy with f2, f3 reset already), f4 reset is only needed because of only one dodge. And it limits the utility choice to zero choice because all 3 utilities are now mandatory on every single Mirage build, not only Mishas. But if you prefer current state then keep it. I don't care in the end. > > > > Ok let's go for another 2 pages blocks of yes/no. > > > > No, if you put 2 dodge mirage back, SoIl will not be used as long as DE is taken and the gameplay is around IH like it always been. > > No the F4 reset on SoI ins't too strong it was barely used in core with the exception of signets builds but it's because of SoInspiration deletion. Doubling a F4 which mean lose point contribution, generaly only sustain because you use your clones for it so you cannot burst directly after, which in the moste case just delay your dead it clearly not op. At best it's furstrating to the poor opponent who has to kill the mes in 30 sec instead of 15 sec... > > You reduce a skill who is used to 3 situations to 2 choices => you reduce skill ceiling = > QED. > > > every single Mirage build > > Yeah, now we have plethora of mirages builds. > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" lol, you are asking us if we want our right or left leg broken, i want 2 functional legs thank you very much, and I aint paying untill thats done. > > > > > > > > > > You still don't understand that your balance suggestion to IH dumbs it down and break a leg from Mirage. You also don't get that the one dodge change is the only reason you are forced into using that broken Singet in the first place. If you get 2 dodges back you get both legs back and the freedom to choose another utility than a broken Singet should not exist in its current state. I even said for Odik, that it can get a little cd reduction and a little reduction in cast time as compensation to make it not a dead utility, still useful just not as broken as it is now and for certain less mandatory to use. But if you guys prefer to have only one dodge and being pressured in using this broken and low skill ceiling Signet on every single Mirage build then why do i even care. > > > > > > > > > > If you Mesmer mains think that you can just get 2 dodges back and nothing else needs to be adjusted to make Mirage on power and condi not op compared to other classes post patch and based on having 2 dodges again, then there is no basic to discuss, that is too delusional. > > > > > > > > 4s invlun>extra dodge > > > > if you dont get that they I dont know what to tell you, even with 2 dodges mirage would still be forced to take soi to survive, thx for nerfing all sustain and evasion from staff/scept/axe, but you dont get it and you refuse to accept it > > > > > > That is not true, with 2 dodges even Powermirage was able to choose another utility over Signet. > > > > lol > No clue what you are talking, you just told me few days ago how you got plat 3 with a Powermriage build even pre patch not using Signet of Illusion but Illusion of Life instead. And again: That soemthing didn't get used in core days doesn't mean it was not op or that it was weak, it just means there were builds better which had better synergies to other stuff. The Signet should not have f4 reset included since game release. And a 2 dodge Mirage in post patch state of other classes being nerfed in dmg and sustain too, doesn't need the f4 reset to survive, just as it was not needed pre patch with 2 dodges. So you want to nerf a skill who will not be used and is taken on certain type of builds because of synergy. Yay ! Let's make another dead things because reasons and clearly a skills who promote skill and give choice should not exists and have his options reduced to bare minimum to be sure nobody use it. About unused things during core day, we all remember your crusade against CI. We all see the pretty skilled result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > Sigh, how much clueless I will have to read today.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > While Signet of Illusion is a low skill ceiling utility rewarding shatterspam and reduces punish for shatter cd wastes. > > > > > > > > > Ok at this moment, you just lose the few credibility I gave to you. > > > > > > > > > Did YOU really wrote this ? Like seriously ? Signet of illusion is low skill ceiling now ?! (You think 2 sec that some mes spamming shatter and signet can still win against someone ?) > > > > > > > > > Did you just know why SoIl is used currently ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is mandatory to use now to compensate for the one dodge change what is a stupid nerf in the first place but giving Mirage 2 doges back + Signet in current form would be op post patch. If you deny that you cannot be taken serious. And there are only few ways to avoid Mirage being op with 2 dodges post patch: > > > > > > > > Either it keeps it one dodge and everything can stay as it is. Or you get your 2 dodges back but f4 gets somehow reworked and nerfed (either by a second trade off or a skill lock out) and i guess we both agree that those ways would be way worse than just excluding f4 reset from Signet what should be excluded in general, also on core, because it is simply too strong to have an complete invul skill on such short cd. Ppl even cry about that it needs a skill lock out. But as said try to keep the f4 reset on that Signet but you have to live with one dodge than or you will even get a way worse nerf to f4 in the future, i bet on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you really don't get it. > > > > > > > It's not only used to give more sustain thanks to one dodge. > > > > > > > There is currently uses cases who used it : > > > > > > > - Misha condi/boonclear mirage build. > > > > > > > - Signets builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of misha build, it's all about synergy with the build : > > > > > > > - It's used to F2 bursting when needed. > > > > > > > - It's used to F3 boonclear/CCing when needed. > > > > > > > - It's used to F4 when pressured. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is because the build is based on a F2 burst and F3 boonclear. > > > > > > > And of course the 3 uses cases barely happen at the same time, so basically when to reset one of shatter at the right time is what differentiate a good mesmer from a random. A player who rollface his 4 shatter, use signet, then rerollface his 4 shatters will be as usefull as a snail. > > > > > > > This right moment to know what to reset at which time is one of the main reason why misha is in top 10 while the next mesmer is far away. > > > > > > > Domination line, illusion line + no DE on his build explain why Signet of Illusion way more than one dodge. Which will not change with one or two dodges. > > > > > > > Since when you become this bad in theorycraft ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of signet build, it's mainly because signet of inspiration was destroyed. > > > > > > > Trust me that I prefer way much a team signet like signet of inspiration was before being deleted than a self-effect signet who will just delay my death. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You just seems like a inquisition fanatic : > > > > > > > > > - You don't like someone, it's a sorcess, burn it ! => mesmer use something : it's low skill ceiling, nerf it ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Continue your crusade and brainwashing until mesmer has 90% dead things if you want, you just lose your time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nonesense doesn't worth to be answered > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I know only reality hurt. <3 > > > > > > > > > > > > F1-3 reset will not be affected, those will even get a slightly lower cd and even less coutner by shorter cat time. The only problem with this Signet is the f4 reset (and that not only on Mirage) and when you get 2 dodges back that will not be mandatory to have anymore and you will get more freedom of choice to use other utilities instead. Atm every single Mirage build needes to use the Siget to even have a chance to survive, that can't be what you are happy with. > > > > > > > > > > I never think I will read a bravan post asking for reducing skill ceiling. > > > > > BTW buff mes ! > > > > > > > > I added some stuff to the previous post you quoted here but your response is so facepalm and far away from any understanding of what i said, it hurts. > > > > Keep your one dodge then and be limited in the need to use that Signet on every single Mirage build and only have one semi viable Mirage build anyway. Your choice! > > > > > > > > Also all classes got nerfed (some are still overperforming in sustain what hopefully will get adjusted soon too). You have to put a 2 dodge Mirage into post patch environment and i am telling you that a 2 dodge Mirage without any adjustments at other places will be op post patch, most likely even on power. While the f4 reset on Signet of Illusion is in general too strong, also on core. But with Mirage having only one dodge you cannot even change it atm because it would kill any Mirage build, means the only single one that is semi playable as a portal and debuff bot mostly depending on core abilities then rly being a Mirage with different playstyle from core. Even without f4 reset the Signet would be a good choice for Mishas build because of all the other synergy you described yourself (synergy with f2, f3 reset already), f4 reset is only needed because of only one dodge. And it limits the utility choice to zero choice because all 3 utilities are now mandatory on every single Mirage build, not only Mishas. But if you prefer current state then keep it. I don't care in the end. > > > > > > Ok let's go for another 2 pages blocks of yes/no. > > > > > > No, if you put 2 dodge mirage back, SoIl will not be used as long as DE is taken and the gameplay is around IH like it always been. > > > No the F4 reset on SoI ins't too strong it was barely used in core with the exception of signets builds but it's because of SoInspiration deletion. Doubling a F4 which mean lose point contribution, generaly only sustain because you use your clones for it so you cannot burst directly after, which in the moste case just delay your dead it clearly not op. At best it's furstrating to the poor opponent who has to kill the mes in 30 sec instead of 15 sec... > > > You reduce a skill who is used to 3 situations to 2 choices => you reduce skill ceiling = > QED. > > > > every single Mirage build > > > Yeah, now we have plethora of mirages builds. > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" lol, you are asking us if we want our right or left leg broken, i want 2 functional legs thank you very much, and I aint paying untill thats done. > > > > > > > > > > > > You still don't understand that your balance suggestion to IH dumbs it down and break a leg from Mirage. You also don't get that the one dodge change is the only reason you are forced into using that broken Singet in the first place. If you get 2 dodges back you get both legs back and the freedom to choose another utility than a broken Singet should not exist in its current state. I even said for Odik, that it can get a little cd reduction and a little reduction in cast time as compensation to make it not a dead utility, still useful just not as broken as it is now and for certain less mandatory to use. But if you guys prefer to have only one dodge and being pressured in using this broken and low skill ceiling Signet on every single Mirage build then why do i even care. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you Mesmer mains think that you can just get 2 dodges back and nothing else needs to be adjusted to make Mirage on power and condi not op compared to other classes post patch and based on having 2 dodges again, then there is no basic to discuss, that is too delusional. > > > > > > > > > > 4s invlun>extra dodge > > > > > if you dont get that they I dont know what to tell you, even with 2 dodges mirage would still be forced to take soi to survive, thx for nerfing all sustain and evasion from staff/scept/axe, but you dont get it and you refuse to accept it > > > > > > > > That is not true, with 2 dodges even Powermirage was able to choose another utility over Signet. > > > > > > lol > > No clue what you are talking, you just told me few days ago how you got plat 3 with a Powermriage build even pre patch not using Signet of Illusion but Illusion of Life instead. And again: That soemthing didn't get used in core days doesn't mean it was not op or that it was weak, it just means there were builds better which had better synergies to other stuff. The Signet should not have f4 reset included since game release. And a 2 dodge Mirage in post patch state of other classes being nerfed in dmg and sustain too, doesn't need the f4 reset to survive, just as it was not needed pre patch with 2 dodges. > > So you want to nerf a skill who will not be used and is taken on certain type of builds because of synergy. > Yay ! Let's make another dead think because reasons and clearly a skills who promote skill and give choice should not exists and have his options reduced to bare minimum to be sure nobody use it. > About unused things during core day, we all remember your crusade against CI. We all see the pretty skilled result. It is more a rework than a nerf, you will still have good enough synergy to take it on Misha build for the f2 and f3 reset. The missing f4 reset will be compensated by having a second dodge and the ability to choose another utility on builds with less synergy to f1-f3 reset. Like getting another stealth or teleport or another dodge utility. It will give you more freedom of choice in utilities not less. This can't be so hard to understand. Btw maybe wait a little bit before quoting and answering my posts, i often edit them and add some stuff and delete typos. My previous post you just quoted i edited before already. > @"viquing.8254" said: > About unused things during core day, we all remember your crusade against CI. We all see the pretty skilled result. The deletion of old CI was absolutely fine. That Anet replaced it with crap is not my fault. I made clearly better suggestions for a rework than what Anet did in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway chronomancer need severe adjustments though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Btw maybe wait a little bit before quoting and answering my posts, i often edit them and add some stuff and delete typos. My previous post you just quoted i edited before already. Yeah will do the same remark, I answer to post who get modified... > It is viable because it literally AVOIDS Mirage mechanics as much as possible Mirage main gameplay is around the mobility it gives compared to core, this since PoF release. When EM isn't overnerfed with exhaustion, it gives condiclear who make it a better traitline than insp. Ambushes are a part of mirage gameplay but it's decorelate to the inherant mobility which is currently used as hell. (which also why IH is a GM and not baseline IMO.) So saying it avoids mirage mechanics as much as possible isn't true. > But you prefer to avoid any change even when it all together is more a bufff when getting 2 dodges back. And when you get more freedom in choice of utilities again, just as it was pre patch. I don't want more dead utilites who are totally decoralate to mirages evade changes. You totally overestimate the F4 reset value in terms of game impact. SoIl is taken because like back in PoF release : - With EM who condiclear, you didn't more need condiclear on your toolbar, basically Mantra of Resolution or Arcane Thievery. - With damage who come only from shatter, reseting shatter is the best synergy you can have. The balance solution is certainly not to make another core things destroyed for the sake of elites. The key is to look at why elite is a supercore. The ideal balance solution in regards to the two points above seems to be making mirage less shatter effective while transfering the output on ambushes (mesmer ambushes ofc.). And the counterpart could totally be on raw number shatter output reduction. This way : - When taking EM : you are more mobile than core and condiclear but have less burst. - When taking IH : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but more dps. - When taking Dune cloak if they greatly increase the aoe : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but have more utilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heika.5403 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > Btw maybe wait a little bit before quoting and answering my posts, i often edit them and add some stuff and delete typos. My previous post you just quoted i edited before already. > Yeah will do the same remark, I answer to post who get modified... > > > It is viable because it literally AVOIDS Mirage mechanics as much as possible > Mirage main gameplay is around the mobility it gives compared to core, this since PoF release. > When EM isn't overnerfed with exhaustion, it gives condiclear who make it a better traitline than insp. > Ambushes are a part of mirage gameplay but it's decorelate to the inherant mobility which is currently used as hell. (which also why IH is a GM and not baseline IMO.) > So saying it avoids mirage mechanics as much as possible isn't true. > > > But you prefer to avoid any change even when it all together is more a bufff when getting 2 dodges back. And when you get more freedom in choice of utilities again, just as it was pre patch. > I don't want more dead utilites who are totally decoralate to mirages evade changes. > You totally overestimate the F4 reset value in terms of game impact. > SoIl is taken because like back in PoF release : > - With EM who condiclear, you didn't more need condiclear on your toolbar, basically Mantra of Resolution or Arcane Thievery. > - With damage who come only from shatter, reseting shatter is the best synergy you can have. > > The balance solution is certainly not to make another core things destroyed for the sake of elites. The key is to look at why elite is a supercore. > The ideal balance solution in regards to the two points above seems to be making mirage less shatter effective while transfering the output on ambushes (mesmer ambushes ofc.). And the counterpart could totally be on raw number shatter output reduction. > This way : > - When taking EM : you are more mobile than core and condiclear but have less burst. > - When taking IH : you are more mobile than core and condiclear, have less burst but more dps. > - When taking Dune cloak if they greatly increase the aoe : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but have more utilities. > > > We already had this discussion and i already told you, that i think reducing the whole Mirage traitline to the mobility increase only, is insanely narrowed. What defines Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle is the ambush mechanic even more when added by IH because IH adds even more Mirage specific active and tactical outplay options aside from the usual core combos. The mobility is one but for certain not the main aspect defines Mirage as different spec to core. EM doesn't even add any Mirage specific gamplay options, a condiremove on dodge trait you could literally find on every other class in the same way. It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing", no one ever would say that. What defines Mirage and also balance out Mirage's op instant dodge is the ambush mechanic, because that creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodgemanagement and more active outplay options and more and different combos to core and with that adds skill ceiling. You reduce Mirage to jaunt and sword ambush (literally the only Mirage specific things that get used on the current Condimirage build) what is laughable. Aside from axe ofc but that only is the case because atm it is considered to be better than scepter, otherwise scepter could do the job. Scepter strength on Mirage was its op ambushes with multiple hits overperfroming with Sharper Images and stacking confusion and torment pretty well aside from the bleeding, while giving a very short cd block/ evade to spam. But ofc with IH overnerf, overnerf of a core trait (Sharper Images) for the sake of avoiding a direct nerf/ rework to Mirage condi ambushes and only one dodge, the condi ambushes are useless now, even though they are still bad designed and op in itself. But good we nerfed endurance dodges, a core trait (SI) and another Mirage GM trait (IH) into the ground to make ambushes on condi not being used anymore. Instead just solving the root problems of Condimirage, means reworking and balancing the condi ambushes itself. Makes sense! Also you complained about EM being overnerfed into uselessness but it seems you do not care when it happens to IH in the same way with the one dodge change, and with that butchers a trait that is clearly more active and skilled when ambushes are designed well than EM ever will be. And a trait that clearly adds a different from core playstyle by adding different combos and outplay moves compared to core aside from just a little bit more mobility. Your whole classification, incl your view on the Mirage GM traits and core traitlines is narrowed in my view. But whatever, keep your one dodge and the one semi viable core Mesmer portal+debuff bot build with a bit more mobility. If you are happy with that why should i care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > Btw maybe wait a little bit before quoting and answering my posts, i often edit them and add some stuff and delete typos. My previous post you just quoted i edited before already. > > Yeah will do the same remark, I answer to post who get modified... > > > > > It is viable because it literally AVOIDS Mirage mechanics as much as possible > > Mirage main gameplay is around the mobility it gives compared to core, this since PoF release. > > When EM isn't overnerfed with exhaustion, it gives condiclear who make it a better traitline than insp. > > Ambushes are a part of mirage gameplay but it's decorelate to the inherant mobility which is currently used as hell. (which also why IH is a GM and not baseline IMO.) > > So saying it avoids mirage mechanics as much as possible isn't true. > > > > > But you prefer to avoid any change even when it all together is more a bufff when getting 2 dodges back. And when you get more freedom in choice of utilities again, just as it was pre patch. > > I don't want more dead utilites who are totally decoralate to mirages evade changes. > > You totally overestimate the F4 reset value in terms of game impact. > > SoIl is taken because like back in PoF release : > > - With EM who condiclear, you didn't more need condiclear on your toolbar, basically Mantra of Resolution or Arcane Thievery. > > - With damage who come only from shatter, reseting shatter is the best synergy you can have. > > > > The balance solution is certainly not to make another core things destroyed for the sake of elites. The key is to look at why elite is a supercore. > > The ideal balance solution in regards to the two points above seems to be making mirage less shatter effective while transfering the output on ambushes (mesmer ambushes ofc.). And the counterpart could totally be on raw number shatter output reduction. > > This way : > > - When taking EM : you are more mobile than core and condiclear but have less burst. > > - When taking IH : you are more mobile than core and condiclear, have less burst but more dps. > > - When taking Dune cloak if they greatly increase the aoe : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but have more utilities. > > > > > > > > We already had this discussion and i already told you, that i think reducing the whole Mirage traitline to the mobility increase only, is insanely narrowed. What defines Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle is the ambush mechanic even more when added by IH because IH adds even more Mirage specific active and tactical outplay options aside from the usual core combos. The mobility is one but for certain not the main aspect defines Mirage as different spec to core. EM doesn't even add any Mirage specific gamplay options, a condiremove on dodge trait you could literally find on every other class in the same way. It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing", no one ever would say that. What defines Mirage and also balance out Mirage's op instant dodge is the ambush mechanic, because that creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodgemanagement and more active outplay options and more and different combos to core and with that adds skill ceiling. You reduce Mirage to jaunt and sword ambush (literally the only Mirage specific things that get used on the current Condimirage build) what is laughable. > > Also you complained about EM being overnerfed into uselessness but it seems you do not care when it happens to IH in the same way with the one dodge change, and with that butchers a trait that is clearly more active and skilled when ambushes are designed well than EM ever will be. And a trait that clearly adds a different from core playstyle by adding different combos and outplay moves compard to core aside from just a little bit more mobility. > > Your whole classification, incl your view on the Mirage GM traits and core traitlines is narrowed in my view. But whatever, keep your one dodge and the one semi viable core Mesmer portal+debuff bot build with a bit more mobility. If you are happy with that why should i care? Don't mixt what you want with what is currently and what is since PoF. Just sit and look at mirage : - Mobility : Illusionary ambush, mirage advance, sand through glass, sword ambush, jaunt. (And yeah jaunt alone mean pretty much.). - Ambushes : Infinite Horizon, 4 utilities who give mirrors/MC (who are also used to clone ambush btw.), desert distortion. You also don't look at the finality. What's differenciate a core mes to a mirage ? Even if the gameplay is different if you decide to make mirage with ambush as main things, if the two does exactly the same thing at the end, you will always have one who will do it better than the other. I don't want to choose between tool 1 or tool 2 to make a cake, I want to use tool 1 to make a cake and tool 2 to make a main course. And that's the original intent of elites specs. >It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing" Actually I'm more about thinking why many class have meta builds who put more slow and quickness than chrono but whatever. Edit : > - When taking IH : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but more dps. (ofc not condiclear.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > Btw maybe wait a little bit before quoting and answering my posts, i often edit them and add some stuff and delete typos. My previous post you just quoted i edited before already. > > > Yeah will do the same remark, I answer to post who get modified... > > > > > > > It is viable because it literally AVOIDS Mirage mechanics as much as possible > > > Mirage main gameplay is around the mobility it gives compared to core, this since PoF release. > > > When EM isn't overnerfed with exhaustion, it gives condiclear who make it a better traitline than insp. > > > Ambushes are a part of mirage gameplay but it's decorelate to the inherant mobility which is currently used as hell. (which also why IH is a GM and not baseline IMO.) > > > So saying it avoids mirage mechanics as much as possible isn't true. > > > > > > > But you prefer to avoid any change even when it all together is more a bufff when getting 2 dodges back. And when you get more freedom in choice of utilities again, just as it was pre patch. > > > I don't want more dead utilites who are totally decoralate to mirages evade changes. > > > You totally overestimate the F4 reset value in terms of game impact. > > > SoIl is taken because like back in PoF release : > > > - With EM who condiclear, you didn't more need condiclear on your toolbar, basically Mantra of Resolution or Arcane Thievery. > > > - With damage who come only from shatter, reseting shatter is the best synergy you can have. > > > > > > The balance solution is certainly not to make another core things destroyed for the sake of elites. The key is to look at why elite is a supercore. > > > The ideal balance solution in regards to the two points above seems to be making mirage less shatter effective while transfering the output on ambushes (mesmer ambushes ofc.). And the counterpart could totally be on raw number shatter output reduction. > > > This way : > > > - When taking EM : you are more mobile than core and condiclear but have less burst. > > > - When taking IH : you are more mobile than core and condiclear, have less burst but more dps. > > > - When taking Dune cloak if they greatly increase the aoe : you are more mobile than core, have less burst but have more utilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We already had this discussion and i already told you, that i think reducing the whole Mirage traitline to the mobility increase only, is insanely narrowed. What defines Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle is the ambush mechanic even more when added by IH because IH adds even more Mirage specific active and tactical outplay options aside from the usual core combos. The mobility is one but for certain not the main aspect defines Mirage as different spec to core. EM doesn't even add any Mirage specific gamplay options, a condiremove on dodge trait you could literally find on every other class in the same way. It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing", no one ever would say that. What defines Mirage and also balance out Mirage's op instant dodge is the ambush mechanic, because that creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodgemanagement and more active outplay options and more and different combos to core and with that adds skill ceiling. You reduce Mirage to jaunt and sword ambush (literally the only Mirage specific things that get used on the current Condimirage build) what is laughable. > > > > Also you complained about EM being overnerfed into uselessness but it seems you do not care when it happens to IH in the same way with the one dodge change, and with that butchers a trait that is clearly more active and skilled when ambushes are designed well than EM ever will be. And a trait that clearly adds a different from core playstyle by adding different combos and outplay moves compard to core aside from just a little bit more mobility. > > > > Your whole classification, incl your view on the Mirage GM traits and core traitlines is narrowed in my view. But whatever, keep your one dodge and the one semi viable core Mesmer portal+debuff bot build with a bit more mobility. If you are happy with that why should i care? > > Don't mixt what you want with what is currently and what is since PoF. > Just sit and look at mirage : > - Mobility : Illusionary ambush, mirage advance, sand through glass, sword ambush, jaunt. (And yeah jaunt alone mean pretty much.). > - Ambushes : Infinite Horizon, 4 utilities who give mirrors/MC (who are also used to clone ambush btw.), desert distortion. > > You also don't look at the finality. > What's differenciate a core mes to a mirage ? Even if the gameplay is different if you decide to make mirage with ambush as main things, if the two does exactly the same thing at then end, you will always have one who will do it better than the other. > I don't want to choose between tool 1 or tool 2 to make a cake, I want to use tool 1 to make a cake and tool 2 to make a main course. And that's the original intent of elites specs. > > >It is nothing anyone would say "why does Warrior have a condi remove on dodge, that is a Mirage thing" > Actually I'm more about thinking why many class have meta builds who put more slow and quickness than chrono but whatever. > > Sand through Glass hardly has a mobility purpose. It is just a double dodge defensive utiltiy adds some more ambushes from the mirror it creates. Means it is mainly for the ambush gameplay and proves my point more than yours. IA is a hybrid (between mobility and ambush gameplay purpose) while the random mobility is even its weakest part, means it is also more about a defensive utility (dodge, retargeting) what adds ambush gameplay from the Mesmer and even from clones without IH needed. Mobility is only a minor second effect from IA and sure not its main purpose. Means also that utility proves my point more than yours. Mirage Advantage is for that the only utility with clearly main purpose of mobility. During sword ambush is the only one out of 5 ambushes that adds mobility. Yeah seems totally main purpose of the spec xD I mean rly stop being that narrowed. An elite spec only about a bit more mobility would be a very poor elite design and no other class would be happy with only that. Not to mention that more mobility does not define and does not create a different playstyle from core at all. They don't do the same thing, core and Mirage have different strengths and different playstyle at least when ambushes and IH are used (and i don't mean only one ambush out of 5 for mainly mobility, while using axe ambush is a waste of time and a misplay more or less, it will lower your dmg when you use it. Big rofl. Aside from the fact, that with only one dodge you can't even use sword offensive and tactical for the daze/ interupt, you only can hope that the moment you need to dodge defensive is also a good moment to use the sword ambush, means with only one dodge sword ambush can't even do its job in defining and creating a different to core playstyle because all Mirage defining mechanics, = ambushes/ IH, are overnerfed from the one dodge change and for that useless to pick in a build). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Yeah we don't agree, just keep in mind that either core will be used to lock burst, either mirage but the two can hardly be at the same level of efficiency so you will not have a choice while with a core doing lock burst and a mirage doing roaming+1 (mainly thanks the mobility needed for roaming it gives.) you can chose what to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > Yeah we don't agree, just keep in mind that either core will be used to lock burst, either mirage but the two can hardly be at the same level of efficiency so you will not have a choice while with a core doing lock burst and a mirage doing roaming+1 (mainly thanks the mobility needed for roaming it gives.) you can chose what to play. As said when you are happy with one dodge and with the Coremesmer portal+debuff bot build as the one and only semi viable build for Mesmer, then all is good. GG Anet you did a good job with Mirage! I take everything back i ever said and will now say the opposite! Based on that new insights i got from the Mesmer god Viquing i will from now on praise Anet balance each morning and evening for the insane class- and elite spec knowledge they have shown when dealing with Mesmer. Mesmer mains are happy, no need for me to fight for a balance that makes more sense, adds more skill ceiling and doesn't contradict the basic mechanics of Mirage and the general gamewide dodgemechanic. Btw i like how you just say we don't agree when you run out of arguments and would need to admit that i am right about the purpose of utilties being less about mobility than you thought. It is a waste of time to talk to you, because when you run out of arguments you just ignore what i said, do not relate anything in your response to what i said and just claim that we disagree xD Yes we disagree because you will not accept simple truth. We also disagree that rain is dry though. And we also disagree when i tell you the earth is not flat. Good that we live in a world everyone has the right for his own opinion, no matter how objective, obviously and factual wrong the opinion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > Yeah we don't agree, just keep in mind that either core will be used to lock burst, either mirage but the two can hardly be at the same level of efficiency so you will not have a choice while with a core doing lock burst and a mirage doing roaming+1 (mainly thanks the mobility needed for roaming it gives.) you can chose what to play. > > As said when you are happy with one dodge and with the Coremesmer portal+debuff bot build as the one and only semi viable build for Mesmer, then all is good. GG Anet you did a good job with Mirage! I take everything back i ever said and will now say the opposite! Based on that new insights i got from the Mesmer god Viquing i will from now on praise Anet balance each morning and evening for the insane class- and elite spec knowledge they have shown when dealing with Mesmer. Mesmer mains are happy, no need for me to fight for a balance that makes more sense, adds more skill ceiling and doesn't contradict the basic mechanics of Mirage and the general dodgemanagement. > > Btw i like how you just say we don't agree when you run out of arguments and would need to admit that i am right about the purpose of utilties being less about mobility than you thought. It is a waste of time to talk to you, because when you run out of arguments you just irngore what i said, do not relate anything in your response to what i said and just claim that we disagree xD Yes we disagree because you will not accept simple truth. We also disagree that rain is dry though. And we also disagree when i tell you the earth is flat. Good that we live in a world everyoen has the right for his own opinion, no matter how objective, obviously and factual wrong the opinion is. I don't state we don't agree because I lack of arguments but because it will just does 10 more posts and after this you will always disagree, but as you always seems to spend more time in this forum than in game, here we go : One of the main reason core mes was never meta was because of his pretty bad mobility and condiclear. The condiclear can be solved by taking inspiration but then you drop all pressure. The mobility was solved with master of manipulaton rework but since the 50% nerf, it's barely a solution anymore. This is what mirage bring when it comes : mobility and condiclear, all packaged in one traitline. Ambushes are just cheery on the cake in a try to give more dps to mesmers to constrast with core burst gameplay (and that was written by a dev on a note patch.). I'm not happy with one dodge but I will be way more unhappier if you continue to nerf core things for the sake of your utopic moogameplay skilled power shatter around unreliable ambush we shall all be proud to play, particulary when the said things will not even be used in thoses builds. Despite the bad anet implementation on past mirage passive builds, chrono rework and so on, they all follow a red line. And the underlying logic ins't that bad for example when they want mirage to be more about dps than core. It's just they way they implement this which is bad and the lack of reactivity, if they really want chrono to be without IP, it shouldn't take one year to put a clone HP buff , rework shatters one more time or look at wells to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > Yeah we don't agree, just keep in mind that either core will be used to lock burst, either mirage but the two can hardly be at the same level of efficiency so you will not have a choice while with a core doing lock burst and a mirage doing roaming+1 (mainly thanks the mobility needed for roaming it gives.) you can chose what to play. > > As said when you are happy with one dodge and with the Coremesmer portal+debuff bot build as the one and only semi viable build for Mesmer, then all is good. GG Anet you did a good job with Mirage! I take everything back i ever said and will now say the opposite! Based on that new insights i got from the Mesmer god Viquing i will from now on praise Anet balance each morning and evening for the insane class- and elite spec knowledge they have shown when dealing with Mesmer. Mesmer mains are happy, no need for me to fight for a balance that makes more sense, adds more skill ceiling and doesn't contradict the basic mechanics of Mirage and the general dodgemanagement. The more practical is not play mesmer. That is, if only 2 or 3 persons play is in rankeds and ignored everywhere or in a ridiculous quantity compared with how much other professions are played. Then, maybe, an only maybe they could to something with it. The bad news are that, watching the state of Chronomaner and that they literally don't care. Well, the most plausible idea is that the changes done and other upcoming will stay there forever. Now waiting for what they nerf from Mirage/Mesmer in term of sustain. Maybe they could cut the clone generation by half so we could call it: "One dodge, half illusions man". Witch could means that, why not, from that point, IP could only count as a half illusion in terms of damage and timers. At least it'll be not as bad as add a long internal CD to IP. But lets see what they balance next time from Mirage... I'm trying to figure what they can nerf from Mirage and Mesmer in terms of sustain and if that could delete any plausible viability as i doubt we will be reworked with a new probable specialization upcoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Zoser.7245" said: > we could call it: "One dodge, half illusions man". xD For that meme it worth the nerfs already! > I'm trying to figure what they can nerf from Mirage and Mesmer in terms of sustain and if that could delete any plausible viability as i doubt we will be reworked with a new probable specialization upcoming. I would bet on a skill lock out on f4, and because it is Anet maybe in addition to delete f4 invuln from f4 on Mirage and replacing it with some useless elite mechanic stuff as a second trade off. Ofc that new Mirage f4 will be excluded from Signet of Illsuion reset just like the Chrono f4. That way they once again will nerf around the real issue make stuff useless and clunky without solving the only rly op stuff, that Mesmer with such Signet has a way too low cd on a complete invuln skill. While ppl even already complain about, that Mesmer is the only class left with a complete invuln skill that has no skill lock out on a 50s cd (means they already complain while not even counting in, that this broken Signet even almost half the cd on the invuln xD). You get what you ask for i would say, and you can be sure i will be the one laughing when this happens. Mesmer mains literally ask for nonsense nerfs around real issues and this will be what they get and deserve for their cluelessness and bias and for not accepting any senseful and needed nerf/ rework for getting 2 dodges back instead. For fighting any senseful and not biased not overnerf balance suggestion i made and solve the real issues Mirage has on condi IH playstyle and issue every Mesmer build has with this Signet. Mesmer mains will take the Anet hammer then, when they prefer that over my stuff. I will be the one laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 My my, you are the light knight and we are the evils guys in your crusade :). Hopefully there is people who got the "light" like you to surpasse all our nonsense haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 @"viquing.8254" @"bravan.3876" Get a room, the leather club is 2 blocks down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Heika.5403" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line, glamours, etc. And not only now forced to be more defensive, also forced to escape most of the time instead of be in the fight. Those must be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable even more fun for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > > > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. > > > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons > > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. > > with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > > > > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. > > > > > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one > > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons > > > > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. > > > > > > with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes > the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me > > the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play > it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > > > > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > > > > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > > > > > > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. > > > > > > > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one > > > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons > > > > > > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. > > > > > > > > > > with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes > > the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me > > > > the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play > > it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? > > Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf. I am just wondering where is the expected sustain nerf to Mirage coming from? Tbh the last class in need of any nerfs based on one dodge is Mesmer while i think there are a lot of other classes clearly overperforming in terms of sustain. Any further nerfs to Mirage/ Mesmer at this point would be a joke. I mean sure it is Anet, means every stupid nonsense balance is possible, and Helisomething NA Top 1-6 hates Mesmer, probably because it needs more skill than other stuff to be broken and easy abused... but can it be there will be even more Mesmer nerfs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woltarion.6829 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 You guys talk about the usefulness of mirage and EM and IH etc. which is right to discuss but don't forget that a whole elite spec, AKA chrono, is just absolutely unplayable in PvP, which reduce even more the possibility of mesmers build. I've never seen a chrono in ranked PvP for at least a year. How is this possible ? How can a spec be so bad on PvP ? When I try a chrono build, I automaticaly consider it as a troll build because I know in advance that it's going to be shit. No distorsion on F4 which has a long CD, if by miracle you can cast CS with 3 clones, what are the odds that it's render useless because of some CC going on. IMO, I don't even like CS because It can't even help me casting a healing spell, unless it's the well, which again reduce the diversity of builds. Clones are fucking fragile, the Illusionnary Reversion is useless because the condition is never met (spawn 1 clone if you shatter 3 clones at once), and how can this trait be viable when next to it you have Improved Alacrity. Wells are useless in PvP, it's easy to dodge, and it forces you to stay at the same place for at least 3 sec. You could stay on place with the shield, if only the shield blocked everything, and wasn't an half shield that you can't use the second part because you blocked nothing. Tides of Times is strong if you can lend it correctly, but it has a frecking long cd for weapon cast. Also there are no more prestige trait , why ? I have an entire set of spells that can't be improved by anything ! PS there is also this joke: in order to have a normal speed of AA with sceptre you must take a trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > > > > > > > > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. > > > > > > > > > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one > > > > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons > > > > > > > > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes > > > the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me > > > > > > the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play > > > it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? > > > > Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf. > > I am just wondering where is the expected sustain nerf to Mirage coming from? Tbh the last class in need of any nerfs based on one dodge is Mesmer while i think there are a lot of other classes clearly overperforming in terms of sustain. Any further nerfs to Mirage/ Mesmer at this point would be a joke. I mean sure it is Anet, means every stupid nonsense balance is possible, and Helisomething NA Top 1-6 hates Mesmer, probably because it needs more skill than other stuff to be broken and easy abused... but can it be there will be even more Mesmer nerfs? You gave yourself the answer... It's Arenanet. So you can expect whatever bizarre things their minds can develop. Be patient. Sure that we will debating about it in few weeks or moths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games. > > > > > > > > > > > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one > > > > > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons > > > > > > > > > > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes > > > > the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me > > > > > > > > the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play > > > > it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same? > > > > > > Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf. > > > > I am just wondering where is the expected sustain nerf to Mirage coming from? Tbh the last class in need of any nerfs based on one dodge is Mesmer while i think there are a lot of other classes clearly overperforming in terms of sustain. Any further nerfs to Mirage/ Mesmer at this point would be a joke. I mean sure it is Anet, means every stupid nonsense balance is possible, and Helisomething NA Top 1-6 hates Mesmer, probably because it needs more skill than other stuff to be broken and easy abused... but can it be there will be even more Mesmer nerfs? > > You gave yourself the answer... It's Arenanet. So you can expect whatever bizarre things their minds can develop. Be patient. Sure that we will debating about it in few weeks or moths. Aight i thought i missed a balance patch preview or another helisomething whisper screenshot about how he wants to make devs nerf Mesmer even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > Hold up, Anet is nerfing Mesmer's sustain in an upcoming patch? > > > > What sustain is there to nerf? > > Signet of illusion of course, there is some mesmers who use it in mirage to compensate the lose of dodge by doubling F4. > Clearly OP. Ah yes, Very op indeed. We cant have those dedicated few mains using their skill and knowledge of the class to play around the nerfs. We must drive this class into the ground until not even the top 1% can make it work! Down with one dodge man, his reign of terror ends here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > Hold up, Anet is nerfing Mesmer's sustain in an upcoming patch? > > > > > > What sustain is there to nerf? > > > > Signet of illusion of course, there is some mesmers who use it in mirage to compensate the lose of dodge by doubling F4. > > Clearly OP. > > i bet if soi gets nerfed and mirage starts using IA to compensate for the dodge it will get targeted next lol Shhh! I never stopped slotting IA. The less attention it gets, the better! It's bad enough Bravan thinks it's toxic and low skill, and wants to increase its c/d after it already got a big increase way before Megapatch! Sidenote: If they decide to mess with SoIl now, I'm pretty sure it will have to be a skill split, and not a universal "trade-off". This is because the F4 reset is an essential tool in a certain extremely popular PvE meta event. I know we PvPers tend not to have PvE on our radar, let alone care. But we know it's PvE > PvP when it comes to crowd pleasing in this game. Something to keep in mind in discussing how Anet might further kill off remaining vestiges of usefulness in the mesmer kit. Wouldn't put it beneath them to slap on a higher c/d in competitive modes only and call it a day. Because, you know, One Dodge Man just has far too much sustain, and we can't have him reaching for remaining life lines, now can we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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