double tap and death's retreat are too expensive

[Taril.8619]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > Since stealth attacks are inherently limited (Due to the Revealed mechanic, which can only be bypassed via DE Elite)

> Revealed only lasts for 3 sec. so it's not that much of a limiting factor.

 

3s prevents you only using stealth attacks or at the very least, chaining stealth attacks as much as possible (Such as exploiting stealth fields like Refuge or Smoke fields and Leap finishers)

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > In your "Ideal" case, the strongest skill to use for damage during, is auto attacks.

> Again not really, that's just what you're reading into it. If you are in a 1 on 1 fight and the AA of the weapon in question does AoE damage while its strongest attack vs. a single target costs initiative then you would have to alternate between the two. Same goes for weapons which have a single target AA vs. multiple enemies (asuming the weaon even has an AoE skill).

 

But then we're right back to you'd never use the CC skills, because you have damaging skills that cost initiative so it's better to use your initiative on the damage skills.

 

Your "Ideal" case is having damaging skills that don't cost initiative. That's not me "Reading into it" differently, that is what you have explicitly wrote multiple times:

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> Signets of Power crit based for pistols would actually solve (parts of) this issue by **making Unload more spammable because then you would get one ini every time you hit a crit** (assuming you use the corresponding signet) giving you a reason to alter between Unload and HS instead of just having to spam unload like how it is rn.

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> That's not an issue with the "toolbox approach" but one with the **devs slapping an ini cost on something that really shouldn't have one.**

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> Like I said there would be more of a reason to use other skills **if Unload would actualy generate initiative instead of consuming it**

 

Your entire argument with P/P as an example, thus far is that if Unload could be cast for free or could gain initiative from being used, people would actually use CC skills like Headshot.

 

But if there are other skills that do cost initiative that provide damage, people will use them instead of Headshot. This is because Headshot uses initiative which could be spent on those damaging skills instead.

 

If no damaging skills cost initiative (I.e. The only damaging or best damaging skill was auto attack) then sure, people could use CC skills because they're not competing with damaging skills for initiative usage, at that point initiative is only used for CC skills and mobility skills.

 

But this is also a very stale gameplay, it's as stale if not more so than the current spam fiesta (It's basically on par with Reaper Shroud gameplay... Actually no, it's worse than Reaper Shroud because at least Reaper uses skill 4 on cooldown)

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > Unload is the filler skill, since it is the most effective thing to spend initiative on, because it's the most damaging skill available to the weapon set.

> No it's the filler skill because the weapon set is geared towards 1 v 1 combat and dishing out damage is the most effective thing to do in a default (as in the enemy is not doing anything which warrants an action from the player) situation.

 

This isn't contradicting what I said. It's the filler skill because it's the most effective thing to spend initiative on. Since the goal of the build is to kill things and Unload is better than the other 3 init skills at making things be killed.

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> This however only leads to stale gameplay if the enemy you're fighting against is essentially an immovable target dummy. The more "active" the enemies are the more you would be inclined to use other skills such as engagement / disengagement skills (which is something P/P is lacking entirely) or CC to keep them form moving (if possible) which, if executed right, generally works rather well for the gameplay they were aiming for.

 

Aside from the fact that in PvE, as you've stated, people are actively avoiding using other skills such as CC for BB's because it costs too much DPS to use init on something that isn't Unload and thus it's better to rely on other classes whom can access CC skills at no cost to deal with BB's. The same situation as for Rev too.

 

In PvP, things are more dynamic because it's less focused on pushing out maximum damage and more about burning through enemies defensive options, making non-damaging skills more rewarding in certain situations (But then when it comes down to burning a players HP, it's right back to spam the 1 skill over and over again and then people cry nerf because all they see is 1 skill being used over and over and killing them)

 

 

[Tails.9372]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> 3s prevents you only using stealth attacks or at the very least, chaining stealth attacks as much as possible (Such as exploiting stealth fields like Refuge or Smoke fields and Leap finishers)

I said: "Your strongest attack should ideally still be your stealth attack **by full malice**" so if then why would you want to spam unboosted stealth attacks?

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> you'd never use the CC skills, because you have damaging skills that cost initiative so it's better to use your initiative on the damage skills.

You're right, I wouldn't use a single target CC over an AoE skill vs. e.g. a group of multiple enemies. But I also wouldn't try to use an AoE over a CC skill vs. a single enemy if I'd rather want to see its BB broken so you really can't just generalise like that as the whole thing is rather context dependent.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Your "Ideal" case is having damaging skills that don't cost initiative. That's not me "Reading into it" differently

No, the baseline filler shouldn't cost initiative but if you have damage skills which add utility to the weapon set (e.g. a small scale AoE to a predominantly 1 on 1 based weapon set) then I don't mind it costing initiative as it wouldn't really have to compete with other "less damage focused" utility skills for the same situation.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> if Unload could be cast for free or could gain initiative from being used, people would actually use CC skills like Headshot

Indeed, unlike the current situation where you pretty much only use unload all the time.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> But if there are other skills that do cost initiative that provide damage, people will use them instead of Headshot.

That would only be the case if the other skill also does BB damage on top of doing more damage than HS and iirc I said that redundancies should be avoided.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> the goal of the build is to kill things and Unload is better than the other 3 init skills at making things be killed

It's also the only skill where the main purpose is to do damage aside from Vital Shot which is redundant because it essentially just does the same thing but worse. But unlike with Vital Shot there would still be some use for the other skills if Unload wouldn't require to be "fueled" with ini.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > 3s prevents you only using stealth attacks or at the very least, chaining stealth attacks as much as possible (Such as exploiting stealth fields like Refuge or Smoke fields and Leap finishers)

> I said: "Your strongest attack should ideally still be your stealth attack **by full malice**" so if then why would you want to spam unboosted stealth attacks?

 

Because Thief =/= Deadeye.

 

Core Thief and Daredevil do not get the Malice mechanic.

 

If the general idea from you is that it's fine for every other Thief build to have their strongest attacks be auto attacks and DE's is full malice stealth attack (But otherwise auto attacks) then that's still not a particularly great scenario.

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> You're right, I wouldn't use a single target CC over an AoE skill vs. e.g. a group of multiple enemies. But I also wouldn't try to use an AoE over a CC skill vs. a single enemy if I'd rather want to see its BB broken so you really can't just generalise like that as the whole thing is rather context dependent.

 

It's not really. Unless the AoE skill does horrible damage per target (Which would probably make it overall deal too low damage to be considered worth using even against multiple targets I.e. A Power D/D build doesn't use Death Blossom because it doesn't do as much damage as Heartseeker even if it is hitting 3 targets) then people will still maximize their damage output by not making the Thief use initiative on CC skills (The same as people don't make the Rev use their Energy on CC skills) and instead the Thief will use their initiative on damage skills such as an AoE even on a single target.

 

Since, what you don't seem to realize is that Unload isn't the filler because it's filler. It's filler because that's what it's best to use initiative on. It's used over Headshot because it's not worth the DPS loss that is spending initiative on things that aren't damage, when again, any other non-Rev class can deal with the BB's at no cost to their personal damage (Thief can also help against BB's with utility skills too)

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> No, the baseline filler shouldn't cost initiative but if you have damage skills which add utility to the weapon set (e.g. a small scale AoE to a predominantly 1 on 1 based weapon set) then I don't mind it costing initiative as it wouldn't really have to compete with other "less damage focused" utility skills for the same situation.

 

But the thing is, that they would. An AoE damage skill would compete with utility skills because it becomes a choice of spending initiative on Damage (The AoE, even against a single target) or utility.

 

We already have evidence of Damage taking priority over utility by the entire P/P scenario you initially brought up. Where people pass up on Headshot during BB's because Unload is better use of initiative.

 

As long as there is a choice between damage and utility to spend initiative on, people will always go for the damage. Even if it's not the optimal damage such as an AoE damage skill being used against a single target, that's still better than no damage from a utility skill.

 

This is why there should be more things to promote varied skill usage within a kit, to allow for there to be less costs associated with spending initiative on utilities (Without simply tacking on a bunch of damage to the skill). While improving gameplay depth by making skill usage more diverse and less impacted by "In this situation, spend all initiative on X skill"

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> That would only be the case if the other skill also does BB damage on top of doing more damage than HS and iirc I said that redundancies should be avoided.

 

If redundancies are to be avoided, then you can pretty much delete Thief weapon skills except for 1 auto attack no cost filler and 1 damaging attack that costs initiative. Everything else will be redundant in PvE.

 

Either that or remove all damaging attacks except auto attack and have weapon kits be simply 4 utilities.

 

Doesn't that sound exciting?

 

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> It's also the only skill where the main purpose is to do damage aside from Vital Shot which is redundant because it essentially just does the same thing but worse. But unlike with Vital Shot there would still be some use for the other skills if Unload wouldn't require to be "fueled" with ini.

 

Vital Shot isn't redundant. It provides damage output at no cost, which is used whenever you need to wait on init to regen.

 

It only would be redundant if you made Unload cost nothing too, because then it would simply be inferior to Unload and everyone will just make Unload the new auto attack skill.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> pathetic damage for both, and still cost 6 initiative?

>

> back to the drawing board if the best you can do is increase the cost to every skill to 6 ini.

>

> how long before our autos cost 6 ini?

>

> stahp.

>

 

Explosive entrance does more damage than a 6 init skill.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > pathetic damage for both, and still cost 6 initiative?

> >

> > back to the drawing board if the best you can do is increase the cost to every skill to 6 ini.

> >

> > how long before our autos cost 6 ini?

> >

> > stahp.

> >

>

> Explosive entrance does more damage than a 6 init skill.

 

A grenade barrage with EE can one shot people. Hell of a glassy build but it is a lot of damage in about a 1/4 second when set up right.