Anet, what is your actual intention with Manifest Sand Shade?

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > @Jaya.2760 said:

> > Yesterday our 2nd druid couldn't raid in our static group and i replaced him as a supportscourge (seraphgear with monkrunes) and they were really surprised how smooth anything went. The Bersi-eles/thief in my subgroup said that the nether had such a relaxed time while pulling of their full dps-rota in gorse-cc-phase^^. Yes, my subgroup didn't had spotter/spirits, but on the other hand they had higher scholar-uptime through barrier. All in all it was a very nice expirience, i'm just hoping we'll get some unique buffs like GotL so that we would be welcomed outside of static groups :)

>

> Someone contact all PUG Raiders and get me a link to the Golem DPS charts! We’ve got first-degree heresy in this thread! I need qT and DnT in here, stat!

>

> Good on you and yours, Jaya.2760. The raiding community is bound up tighter than a fat man at a cheese festival. Maybe this’ll help loosen things up.

 

I'm working on a project to ... erhm .. lets just say "give people perspective" on what raid encounters actually *NEED* to succeded vs what just makes it slightly faster. (Big Hint: Qtfy's type of builds prioritize speed and high-end tactics over success chance.)

 

Their builds simply are not designed for your average raider, and they acknowledge this even on their site. When they say something isn't "recommended" for raiding or for a boss fight in particular, their rationality is "In the Ideal circumstances that we can achieve given we are a static and all know our mechanics flawlessly, here is the ideal method to push your efficiency to the extreme."

 

Raids are largely balanced around a 15 to 20k per DPS player realistic goal. Anyone hitting 30k in an actual raid fight not called Mursaat Overseer is doing extremely well and is being perfectly supported by their team, and is highly coordinated. Thats how they can pull off some of their amazing low-man kills. They literally end up being worth twice as much as the average player due to their perfect combinations, timing, and knowledge of each other's builds.

 

That ain't your normal raiding.

 

I plan to create a list of "Realistic Raid-Ready Builds" with basic rotations that get the job done. Workhorse builds that you can absolutely clear content with with the goal being "As Few Pulls As Possible" rather than maximized damage output.

 

 

Support Scourge is a fantastic example of a great "we're getting to the end of this fight one way or another" build, as is Power Mesmer and Condi Mirage (hence their great use on Mathias, along with their good utility).

 

I'm going to couple this with actual "minimum viable damage needed" across your squad for bosses to avoid their timers, and also explain about bosses who's timers are really trivial with some builds. (Hint, for fun, we survived and beat VG on a really inexperienced Training Run group by using two support scourges + Chrono + the last remaining dps player and were never at risk of dying after the timer due to our coordination between the supports.)

 

A goal of our discord is accessible raiding, and we want to get people set up with the mentality of "a kill is a kill, getting there safer and consistently is better than trying to get their faster and wiping."

[Jaya.2760]

> @Exqq.7451 said:

> > @"Jaya.2760" said:

> > > @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > > > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > > > @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > > > > > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > > > > So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?

> > > > > > Would they do this for non-training runs?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

> > > > >

> > > > > We absolutely are fine with Support Scourge and i play it often. Only bosses we'd really just stick to meta druids is Gorse, and KC if your dps players arent solid.

> > > >

> > > > Do you use them instead of a Druid? Would this be full magis with monk runes?

> > > >

> > > > (Again, just being honestly curious here. I haven't been able to use that kind of gear on scourge in a group setting due to groups saying "no"). And seeing that I am on your discord, mayhaps I can actually get to use it there.

> > >

> > > Plenty of options but mine is leadership runes with full minstrels. Caps boon duration while still having great healing and plenty of life force generation. Transfusion + Regen + Life From Death + Barrier is fantastic effective healing per second, and any condi heavy fight just becomes a boon conversion fest. The revive potential is the best in the entire game as well to cover up any serious mechanic failures which even experienced raiders make from time to time.

> > >

> > > We have even used it as the cps and healer role merged into one. As long as group has a source of fury, the damage difference is minimal since you free up another slot to play dps. Other groups cps can double banner in this comp type.

> >

> > Yesterday our 2nd druid couldn't raid in our static group and i replaced him as a supportscourge (seraphgear with monkrunes) and they were really surprised how smooth anything went. The Bersi-eles/thief in my subgroup said that the nether had such a relaxed time while pulling of their full dps-rota in gorse-cc-phase^^. Yes, my subgroup didn't had spotter/spirits, but on the other hand they had higher scholar-uptime through barrier. All in all it was a very nice expirience, i'm just hoping we'll get some unique buffs like GotL so that we would be welcomed outside of static groups :)

>

> How much damage is GotL worth and what percentage of the time do you lose Scholar vs the benefit of higher Scholar uptime, I guess? This could be a neat way to look at things but you will never ever see someone even think about it since it compares test DPS vs actual DPS etc. Kind of like the idea though that you are saying.

>

> For your run, what was the change in the personal DPS of the players compared to running with the druid?

 

The damage and killtime was nearly unchanged regardless of which boss we fought (+/- 500dps). But tbh, we aren't a pro-group with always 5 gotl-stacks and 100% alacrity-uptime, we are more of a "we get the job done without to worry about enragetimers"-group. So the difference for better groups would be bigger i guess.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> I'm working on a project to ... erhm .. lets just say "give people perspective" on what raid encounters actually *NEED* to succeded vs what just makes it slightly faster. (Big Hint: Qtfy's type of builds prioritize speed and high-end tactics over success chance.)

 

But: This is not giving people perspective. People already know this, and already do this. When learning encounters, you often use a third healer (healing tempest especially) just for group stability, so everyone can get used to the mechanics.

However, there comes a point when you did get used to the mechanics and did learn the boss. At that point, you remove the training wheels, and do the boss properly. This usually makes the boss _easier_, because you can then get quicker through troublesome mechanics/phases.

 

qtfy's builds (and general glass cannon builds) are used once one learned at this point because they facilitate this while costing you nothing.

 

That people do not use protective builds like this is a myth. You didn't discover something new, you didn't find a new perspective, you're just using strategies that have been used in raiding since Everquest.

 

 

Currently, most people that are raiding are at a level where they know the fights. They do not need training wheels. A generic pug is not lowering their chances by using these builds, it's actually increasing it, because the potential of error goes down drastically. You do not need specific builds to protect or revive people any longer, you can skip whole mechanics (like Gorseval's updrafts), and bosses like Matthias, Sloth or Sabetha just die first or second try.

 

 

In fact, it seems you're suffering from a pretty severe misperception. The entire problem of Necro is that it is widely considered a "training wheels" profession that you grow out of. This is what people want to change. People are usually not content remaining inexperienced. They want to improve, and once they do, the current state of Necromancer prevents them from actually utilizing their improved skillset, forcing a class swap if they want to play at a higher level.

Scourge was a step in the right direction there. It removes large parts of the survivability of base necromancer, and people expect this tradeoff to result in a class that is as useful in high-level play as other professions.

 

There's no reason for this to not be the case.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > What I'm saying is:

> > **If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.**

>

> If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

 

@"Karl McLain.5604" I love your avatar picture, I guess it's completely in line with the nerf that happened to the Scourge this week (ppl who played GW1 know what I mean). :)

[Miss Lana.5276]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

 

I'm tired of being the best then being nerfed. Please, for the love of God, if you want to fix things differently to PvP than PvE then do it separately. You guys keep breaking my heart with this stuff. Tired of playing other classes in raids just to get semi-decent dps.