Balance with a Sledge Hammer

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

In all seriousness what would be a good class/power build to switch to where I'll be welcome in Fractals and might be accepted into a PUG raid?

 

I used to be a Hammer Guardian, I found Warrior acceptable as long as I had Defense tray equipped. Is Power Soulbeast any good when it comes to survivability.

 

I'm just used to Power Reapers life steal and get out of jail free shroud.

[borrok.9267]

I only really play pvp/wvw so can't really say much there, but I'm switching back to s/d teef.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer.

> Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil.

>

> I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long:

> * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once.

> * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for.

> * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits.

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

>

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now.

> As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;)

 

Thank you for your response, Robert Gee.

 

I am fully aware of the time required to work with the tells. And I'm also aware that I'm going to need to be patient. I did post this when I was a bit more upset and I understand that making and maintaining an MMO is a lot of work and can be quite difficult at times. Your response actually does make me quite happy and not because you guys responded to me but because of what you said.

 

> * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner.

 

I want to address this statement specifically because You are absolutely correct. My response was a bit more emotional, although I feel that while its being fixed it should still remain at least in PvE but be put on notice as something that will change. I feel that would be a decent compromise since at the time being this shelves the Scourge with the promise that we will gain some of that use back but that doesn't help us at the moment. This statement is extremely helpful though since It tells me that You guys have been reading my posts on the Scourge, or are aware of the same issues I've been bringing up.

 

As it stands now it was absolutely true that the scourge was carrying the core necromancer and not an enhancement of what was already there. This much is very obvious. And the fact that a bug fix buried the elite spec so hard when in other similar situations something like that wouldn't have happened(example being firebrand) is really telling just how bad of a state the necromancer is in. And this has effected the Reaper as well where both elite specs are being dragged down by the core necromancer.

 

I don't know if you guys are willing to do what needs to be done with the necromancer in order to fix this issue as you haven't been willing to in the past. Although, its a new day and perhaps you are? I'm okay with a good chunk of the necromancer's Damage, support and defenses being linked to Death shroud, Reaper's shroud and Sand shades but these all need to be on a fairly equal footing in terms of their respective roles. This project of yours when talking about fixing the issues might be a much larger task than you think. Scratch that, it will be a massive task.

 

Scourge is also so different from Core necromancer that many of the traits just don't function like they would on core or reaper. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it should be taken into consideration when looking at traits. Almost all of the necromancer skills and traits need to be reviewed and some more than others. So this might not be something that can be tackled with the next update.

 

As you may have seen, I'm a huge advocate for the scourge. I absolutely love its design and at the moment I can't play it at the moment because of how devastating the bug fix was. So I hope the fixes are expedient.

[squallaus.8321]

The dmg is just too low atm. the soul reaping traits that proc on shroud 1 are close to non existent now. It shouldn't be right that you need to expend so much life force for a single stack of burning and 2 stacks of vulnerability. Playing dps scourge is much higher risk than reaper therefore should have higher dps rewards as a result. As for support scourge, you just have to make it not worth while unless players takes the right traits and gear stats.

[Player.9621]

mountains out of molehills

it was broken and op, now its not

pretty sure reaper still kicks ass

[kKagari.6804]

The thing that made it on par was extremely broken in PvP.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> The thing that made it on par was extremely broken in PvP.

 

And it is good that it was fixed for PVP. I wholehearthedly approve of the PVP nerf, and am in favor of more nerfs there.

 

We do not mind that PvP is being adjusted, we mind that this broke Scourge for PvE.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Player.9621 said:

> mountains out of molehills

> it was broken and op, now its not

> pretty sure reaper still kicks kitten

 

Let me correct a thing in your post:

"It was broken and op, now it's just broken"

 

"pretty sure reaper still kicks kitten"

Reaper suffered a lot from the patch that came before PoF. Is it still effective? Yes. Can it compete against the new flavor that came with PoF? That's arguable.

 

Most forum warriors tend to look at the professions from a PvP point of view. The issue of the necromancer and it's e-specs have always lied in PvE. What most necromancers want are fixs that make them welcome in PvE.

- We could careless about corrupting more boons in PvP (there barely is any boons in pve),

- we could careless about 30 point of life siphon (Our foes have billions of health point, what's this siphon value? A toothpick?),

- we could careless about countering a condi metagame (mobs do big nasty direct damages),

- we could careless about soft cc (the bosses are all immun to them),

- we could careless about a low health barrier (Some game mechanisms that don't exist in PvP reduce it's already low efficacity by a huge amount).

- we could careless about extra rez tools (come on that's a matter of trusting your allies here)

 

Yes we got support tools. Yes they are very effective in PvP. But, they are irrelevant in PvE. Most necromancer just want to be relevant in PvE, we don't want something extraordinary, we just want the bare minimum of tools to be relevant. Be it an original form of relevant support or a competitive dps, we don't want to much of it, we want a balanced amount of it, just enough to not see teammate say: "Please can't you reroll? Your profession is just underperforming and we don't want to struggle because of it"

[Crinn.7864]

Can we pause for a second to appreciate the fact that it took pulsing dhuumfire and shade stacking in order to get competitive dps.

 

The problem is not that scourge sucks post-patch, the problem is that the base DPS of core necro is so hilariously bad that we needed multiple bugs on top of a full glass cannon spec in order to get viable dps with necro.

 

We should not be asking for bringing back pulsing dhuumfire. We should be asking for our core dps traitlines to fixed to be comparable to other class's core dps traitlines.

 

[Galmac.4680]

So right now with the bugfixes the necro is at an intended position and works well in ANets sight. Due to our heavy support QTFY will create a new support benchmark rating with necros as top tiers. Metabattle will show up necros for best supports.

Maybe we just have to start a legendary journey to unlock these support skills.

 

[UnDeadFunToo.8409]

I don't mind the dps reduction in Scourge, IF we truly were "heavy in support". However I don't see that we give anymore support than other classes already do and they do it better or give the same support but with better dps( In PVE).

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> Can we pause for a second to appreciate the fact that it took pulsing dhuumfire and shade stacking in order to get competitive dps.

>

> The problem is not that scourge sucks post-patch, the problem is that the base DPS of core necro is so hilariously bad that we needed multiple bugs on top of a full glass cannon spec in order to get viable dps with necro.

>

> We should not be asking for bringing back pulsing dhuumfire. We should be asking for our core dps traitlines to fixed to be comparable to other class's core dps traitlines.

 

This is the real takeaway. THIS is why reaper is so bad. It's not reaper, reaper as a spec is fine. It's core necro that is fundamentally terrible in PVE.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

I'm sure Anet will fix this and will come up with a balance patch soon(ish) which will definitely buff the Scourge (and hopefully Reaper as well) that will make it (at least somewhat) viable again (in PvE, WvW and PvP). But I'm now really torn on what to do next, up to a point where I consider playing different games until the balance patch comes. This is mainly because I FULLY geared my Scourge (up to full malign infusions even!). Should I now fully gear a CPS for instance (so I can play raids again)? The problem with that is that it's really expensive to do so, and maybe a few weeks later the Scourge is in a right spot again.

Which goes back to another big issue which has been mentioned numerous times already: Why is it so punishing to switch classes/professions (fully gearing it, etc.)! And then not even only in a cost-way, but time-wise as well (have to be very careful not to salvage the wrong items, etc.). And yes, I can understand this is not a very easy thing to fix, but please Anet can we look into this (sorry for the broken record, but sometimes we need to be reminded every now and then :) )

[ThomasC.1056]

This :

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

>

> > * The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner

>

> Not to argue against the "bug" removal (that's fine), but you're then saying that the "bug-free" scourge is a PvE joke when necro already wasn't that competitive in PvE? That was always the plan? Where's the communication with other spec designers? Where is the QA?

 

Also this :

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> Can we pause for a second to appreciate the fact that it took pulsing dhuumfire and shade stacking in order to get competitive dps.

>

> The problem is not that scourge sucks post-patch, the problem is that the base DPS of core necro is so hilariously bad that we needed multiple bugs on top of a full glass cannon spec in order to get viable dps with necro.

>

> We should not be asking for bringing back pulsing dhuumfire. We should be asking for our core dps traitlines to fixed to be comparable to other class's core dps traitlines.

 

I really appreciate that a dev took the time to answer on that specific topic, and I'm hoping there'll be more communication about bugs, functionnality issues (just have a look at [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9362/axes-of-symmetry-and-illusionary-ambush-lack-of-functionnality#first) for example :p) and even balance.

 

Now, aI understand that it's not desirable for any class or spec to shine only because of a "buggy behaviour", as stated. I understand the need to first remove bug to see how it works, and then consider what to improve.

 

Yet, I'm really feeling nausea to read that a dev roughly tells that scourge developpement oversaw all this, and shamelessly states that necro is so bad it needs to rely on exploits to become anything worth.

[paulo haddad.2815]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

>

> I think Arenanet shot themselves in the foot with the two different shade sizes. You give the proper 'tell' and charge up time for a shade, and it becomes useless on the small shades, but properly balanced for the large shades.

 

i think you forgot the fact that you can use simultaneously 3 small shades for 1 big shade...you just have to anticipate and learn how to use them.

[chronometria.3708]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> Yet another thread where a Dev gets asked actual fair questions, then gets harassed by people. You guys wonder why they don't reply often.

 

I think in this case, there isn't harassment, its just a torrent of actual, fair questions. This whole situation with scourge is way out of line and a better reply is needed than "bug fix". If scourge was a car, then it just got bought from the shop and then all the wheels were taken off by the manufacturer as "not intended". No amount of explaining will solve that unless it actively states what the "car" is supposed to be good at and when exactly its going to be able to do it.

 

The response, in this case, is sorely lacking and people have a right to demand that their spec has a purpose and is playable....or to get a concrete timeplan as to what date that change it going to be made (ie a balance patch). "We will fix it some time later" is not good enough - we must know when and how and we must know that now.

 

...and I don't even have a scourge. I can, however, see their situation and think that enough is enough.

 

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

What becomes pretty obvious after reading the comments is just how poorly the base damage is and has always been for Necromancer. I am beginning to think the team has become blind to this fact because it's been talked about for years now and I've not seen any substantial long term changes. I mean let's stop kidding ourselves, every other class on both these forums and Reddit agrees the Necro is the worst class in the game and has absolutely no value in high level PvE content, so explain to me how the developers haven't figured that out yet?

 

They speak of being objective and perhaps that's part of the problem because for years now we have needed a balance dev to be passionate about Necromancer and it's performance and viability in high level PvE. It is beyond time that this class gets pulled out of the basement and let someone else occupy it for a while if you're unable to balance classes equally. Fix the core damage permanently and put as much time into this class as you do others so people can finally enjoy content we've never seen as a Necromancer. I am so happy I haven't invested much into my Scourge because frankly that in itself would have sent me packing after this incredibly severe nerf.

 

On that topic and based off this quote "•Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner." how is it even possible for a build to go for a year or longer with a bug that clearly represented the bulk of the damage? How was this not picked up on sooner can we have get a clear explanation on how this happens through what must of been many different iterations of the spec that it could not have been uncovered prior to launch, it counted for the bulk of damage output for heaven's sake!

[kKagari.6804]

> @"paulo haddad.2815" said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> >

> > I think Arenanet shot themselves in the foot with the two different shade sizes. You give the proper 'tell' and charge up time for a shade, and it becomes useless on the small shades, but properly balanced for the large shades.

>

> i think you forgot the fact that you can use simultaneously 3 small shades for 1 big shade...you just have to anticipate and learn how to use them.

 

Right, after spending 3-5 seconds casting your shades, surely your opponent won't move.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

 

> On that topic and based off this quote "•Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner." how is it even possible for a build to go for a year or longer with a bug that clearly represented the bulk of the damage? How was this not picked up on sooner can we have get a clear explanation on how this happens through what must of been many different iterations of the spec that it could not have been uncovered prior to launch, it counted for the bulk of damage output for heaven's sake!

 

Dhuumfire has been mediocre ever since it was changed to function with shroud. It was powerful back in the day when Conditions didn't stack like they do now and triggered on critical, but that was a time no one ran condi removal, or at least not a lot of it. As it was before scourge it was taken on condi specs not because it was an amazing trait but because it was the only option. It was taken on power reaper because it was the only option. The trait was never impressive and now its not impressive.

 

This is the reason I don't agree with Robert in on this because Dhuumfire has a history of being sub par and under preforming but being taken anyway because it was the best sub par option among sub par options. Scourge made Dhuumfire great. It was amazing because it felt like this was the intention for the trait because its use was very narrowly focused for the Condition build but it was good. Without the stacking mechanic though, Dhuumfire would be good but it couldn't be the bulk of our DPS like it was before. And the reason is because of even without the stacking mechanic a pure DPS scourge spec's DPS is middling(at best) even when Dhuumfire is taken into consideration. Especially when we consider the other two professions that can stack a very diverse amount of conditions seem to be able to stack burning at a comparable rate with Dhuumfire on scourge.

[Exqq.7451]

I would be nearly content at this point if all they did was add duration to some of the conditions. That would keep the burst low since we could only apply them at the "steady" rate we have now but increase the potential DPS in PvE by allowing us to stack them higher over the long term. This seems like the easiest correction to our DPS. Either way, we will probably not see meaningful changes as long as Barrier is considered HEAVY SUPPORT.

 

Alternatively, make it so Barrier degrade slower and Scourge able to apply Barrier to all 10 members of a raid (as it already should). If Scourge could do that and still maintain say... 30ish dps you could consider slotting one Scourge instead of a real dps as a safety net. No, it would not be speed run META but it would give it some purpose. We have to accept at this point that SOMETHING is better than NOTHING as we will never be the DPS overlords.

[kKagari.6804]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

>

> > On that topic and based off this quote "•Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner." how is it even possible for a build to go for a year or longer with a bug that clearly represented the bulk of the damage? How was this not picked up on sooner can we have get a clear explanation on how this happens through what must of been many different iterations of the spec that it could not have been uncovered prior to launch, it counted for the bulk of damage output for heaven's sake!

>

> Dhuumfire has been mediocre ever since it was changed to function with shroud. It was powerful back in the day when Conditions didn't stack like they do now and triggered on critical, but that was a time no one ran condi removal, or at least not a lot of it. As it was before scourge it was taken on condi specs not because it was an amazing trait but because it was the only option. It was taken on power reaper because it was the only option. The trait was never impressive and now its not impressive.

>

> This is the reason I don't agree with Robert in on this because Dhuumfire has a history of being sub par and under preforming but being taken anyway because it was the best sub par option among sub par options. Scourge made Dhuumfire great. It was amazing because it felt like this was the intention for the trait because its use was very narrowly focused for the Condition build but it was good. Without the stacking mechanic though, Dhuumfire would be good but it couldn't be the bulk of our DPS like it was before. And the reason is because of even without the stacking mechanic a pure DPS scourge spec's DPS is middling(at best) even when Dhuumfire is taken into consideration. Especially when we consider the other two professions that can stack a very diverse amount of conditions seem to be able to stack burning at a comparable rate with Dhuumfire on scourge.

 

I actually don't agree. Dhuumfire made the scourge stupidly reliant on desert shroud. I'd rather take this nerf and have more buff opportunities to round out the other shade skills. Casting barrier is great and all, but we are in an era where skills are getting stacked to the brim with effects, just applying a barrier for a good chunk of life force isn't going to cut it.

 

The reason I don't like scourge is that every button just feels like a panic button, theres almost never a bad time to use any of the shade skills. Especially after you trick them out with path of corruption, dhuumfire, etc. The whole class just feels so brainless to play. Nerf the dhuumfire, I don't care. If they see this class as support, give us more support. Add protection into the mix, the traits as they are now are so simplistic and boring.

[Lily.1935]

> @kKagari.6804 said:

> > @Lily.1935 said:

> > > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

> >

> > > On that topic and based off this quote "•Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner." how is it even possible for a build to go for a year or longer with a bug that clearly represented the bulk of the damage? How was this not picked up on sooner can we have get a clear explanation on how this happens through what must of been many different iterations of the spec that it could not have been uncovered prior to launch, it counted for the bulk of damage output for heaven's sake!

> >

> > Dhuumfire has been mediocre ever since it was changed to function with shroud. It was powerful back in the day when Conditions didn't stack like they do now and triggered on critical, but that was a time no one ran condi removal, or at least not a lot of it. As it was before scourge it was taken on condi specs not because it was an amazing trait but because it was the only option. It was taken on power reaper because it was the only option. The trait was never impressive and now its not impressive.

> >

> > This is the reason I don't agree with Robert in on this because Dhuumfire has a history of being sub par and under preforming but being taken anyway because it was the best sub par option among sub par options. Scourge made Dhuumfire great. It was amazing because it felt like this was the intention for the trait because its use was very narrowly focused for the Condition build but it was good. Without the stacking mechanic though, Dhuumfire would be good but it couldn't be the bulk of our DPS like it was before. And the reason is because of even without the stacking mechanic a pure DPS scourge spec's DPS is middling(at best) even when Dhuumfire is taken into consideration. Especially when we consider the other two professions that can stack a very diverse amount of conditions seem to be able to stack burning at a comparable rate with Dhuumfire on scourge.

>

> I actually don't agree. Dhuumfire made the scourge stupidly reliant on desert shroud. I'd rather take this nerf and have more buff opportunities to round out the other shade skills. Casting barrier is great and all, but we are in an era where skills are getting stacked to the brim with effects, just applying a barrier for a good chunk of life force isn't going to cut it.

>

> The reason I don't like scourge is that every button just feels like a panic button, theres almost never a bad time to use any of the shade skills. Especially after you trick them out with path of corruption, dhuumfire, etc. The whole class just feels so brainless to play. Nerf the dhuumfire, I don't care. If they see this class as support, give us more support. Add protection into the mix, the traits as they are now are so simplistic and boring.

 

I think to say that the Profession shouldn't use its mechanic as a primary means of its strategy is not the direction we should go in nor is it a direction I want to go in. Death shroud, Reaper's shroud, and the shades should be in integral part of our rotation and not just for damage reduction. Look at Berserker warrior or Soulbeast ranger or Revenant or elementalist. Each of them dive extremely deep into their mechanic in order to maximize their effectiveness and Necromancer should be no different. You should be expected to use Desert shroud to max your DPS potential on scourge. You should be using Sand Cascade to support your allies. You Should be placing the shades and work the field. You should be jumping into reaper's shroud to peek your physical damage. You Should be using death shroud to control the field. Shroud and Shades should rightfully be a good percentage of our support, defenses and DPS. This is why I've been such an advocate for Utility in shroud for such a long time. This is why I've pushed for traits that function on spending life force for a long time. You should be expected to use these mechanics because this is the reason you play the class, this is the reason you play the elite specialization. If its not important to our method of engagement than there is no point to using it. You might as well go with something else.

 

How did it feel brainless? Because the Raiding team put Scourge as one of the more difficult builds to use and I've been saying scourge is fairly difficult to use but rewarding. Because getting used to it wasn't something I could do as soon as I looked at it, I had to practice with it, much like I have to practice with Mirage because it isn't intuitive. It feels great to me, once I did start to get the hang of it, but I wouldn't ever call that brainless. Death perception core necromancer, now that.. THAT was a brainless build. Go in shroud, auto attack until below 50%, drop out.... That is literally all you had to do for that build. The Condi DPS build for Scourge is more akin to the difficulty of Condi kits engineer. Which I've played all of these builds.

[Mikeskies.1536]

They will fix a lot of problems if the buff Life Force generation in general and especially for Scepter. Right now, Scourge does not have enough Life Force to DPS and provide its "heavy support". Increase Life Force generation will increase DPS by allowing Scourge to cast for F skills, and letting it support when needed.

[Ravezaar.4951]

Since u nerfed the CD on F2 why didnt u at same time reduce the LF cost ? seems like a fair thing to do if u nerf any F-skills

 

[Maunzi.3764]

>No, it would not be speed run META but it would give it some purpose.

 

No, it wouldn't be used at all. There's already specs that would be able to do so, and guess what? They get kicked on sight.