Junkpile.7439 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekretaal.6485 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Core Necromancer is broken. Trying to fix a broken main with a Specialization, is like trying to build a palace on top of Quicksand. Until the core issues, which are often flavor issues that should not be interfering with gameplay, are fixed there's really no long term hope for necromancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? not sure what you're trying to say... So I'll guess. Why don't I just play a class with a lot of DPS if that's important? Well, its not. Whats important to me is that it functions well. And also its feel. I prefer the life force mechanic over something like the Shatter or element swapping mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekretaal.6485 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? Because leveling, equipping, learning rotations, and developing muscles memory for them is time consuming and hard and unfun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Morbius.1759 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? Because that isn't the issue, I don't think anyone who posts here regularly is asking to be the new meta all they want is to play the class they enjoy and have it function well enough in high end content to have a role. As I've said several times now if it comes down to having to play a class I don't enjoy as much as I have Necromancer because it can't be fixed then I may as well walk away from the game not just the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just spending some time with the weak desert shroud highlights how little base damage we have. Necromancer is the master of condition, but scepter and staff condition application is anemic. Worse, we are the masters of condition, yet we have not a single trait amplifying the damage of any single condition, be it bleed or poison or torment. Meanwhile ranger, guardian, and revenant -- the stronger condition specs -- have traits that raise the damage of their conditions by 25-30%. Necro without desert shroud has abysmal condi application, and it should be no mystery to people that the strongest condi classes all have ample access to burning as the strongest condition by far, while the two weak condition specs -- mesmer and necro-- have the least access to burning and no traits to amplify their confusion damage. It's why mirage and scourge are dumpster tier specs, albeit in different ways. What's worse, is that the scourge sacrificed damage absorption substantially under the premise it could be a more offensive spec, and lo and behold that's been decimated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. I COULD write an entire essay without my dominant hand. It'd be difficult, sloppy and take ages. But It can be done. It works perfectly fine. Your response is effectively the same thing as telling a left handed person to write with their right hand. They could probably do it. But it'll be frustrating and not worth the effort when they could get the same task done more optimally with their left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkpile.7439 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 If people would just uninstall their dps metters everything would be fine. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > If people would just uninstall their dps metters everything would be fine. :D I actually did. I don't need it to know the general DPS I'm doing. Others tell me that for me. I do well enough on specs I'm not used to and can frequently get top DPS. Those things are only needed when you are with a new group or you are learning the rotation in a practical setting. But removal of it wont help our situation. We spent years without it and necromancer was still treated like a pariah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. Selfish people that only care for themselves think so, team players do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > If people would just uninstall their dps metters everything would be fine. :D Right, because a meta didn't exist before DPS meter and people had no capacity to discern which class compositions led to the most efficient clears... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Substatic.6958 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Junkpile.7439 said: > If people would just uninstall their dps metters everything would be fine. :D Because no one would notice that other classes and specs are doing a 25-50% increased damage over their own. GW2 is played mostly by casuals, but not people in a coma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Lily.1935 said: > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. > > I COULD write an entire essay without my dominant hand. It'd be difficult, sloppy and take ages. But It can be done. It works perfectly fine. Your response is effectively the same thing as telling a left handed person to write with their right hand. They could probably do it. But it'll be frustrating and not worth the effort when they could get the same task done more optimally with their left. It's not the same thing really because a left handed person can be taught to write perfectly well with their right hand. In this case, the Necromancer is not the most effective segment of a perfect scenario meta raid team composition, but you can take 10 of them to a raid and still down the boss with 3 minutes to spare, so where is the issue? > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. > > Selfish people that only care for themselves think so, team players do not. 10 Reapers take out VG 10 Reapers take out Sab 10 Reapers take out Sloth Are they are not team players? Wanna play Necro? Play Necro. Wanna Raid? Raid. People don't want Necro? Group with other Necros or just don't play with class Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conqueror.3682 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 This part catched my atention > > then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. So, last time Reaper got a nerf/fix which consisted in putting a fixed duration on jagged horrors, from the mark of horror skill (which is now called summon madness), because it was not intended that these minions were constantly healed and doing dps forever. This change removed reaper from the meta and there was no other balance to improve the damage of the class, thus making it not desirable for raid. So, you get the idea? what you have done is an incomplete work, it is like you are fixing a car with a faulty engine and you remove the engine, but doing no other action after. I dont care if you, as a developer are or not objetive, what i care is, you must complete the job . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > > > > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. > > > > I COULD write an entire essay without my dominant hand. It'd be difficult, sloppy and take ages. But It can be done. It works perfectly fine. Your response is effectively the same thing as telling a left handed person to write with their right hand. They could probably do it. But it'll be frustrating and not worth the effort when they could get the same task done more optimally with their left. > > It's not the same thing really because a left handed person can be taught to write perfectly well with their right hand. In this case, the Necromancer is not the most effective segment of a perfect scenario meta raid team composition, but you can take 10 of them to a raid and still down the boss with 3 minutes to spare, so where is the issue? You're missing the point. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Forcing a person to write with their right hand when their dominant hand is their left is not a good thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people Wiki page actually talks about the issues of forcing someone to write with their right hand when they are left handed... Which actually did happen to me btw... Although I'm ambidextrous but that still caused me problems growing up when I was punished for using my left hand. The point i'm getting at is I want to play with my friends. I don't want to be a burden on my friends and I want to contribute equally to the success with out group. I can be successful as the worst profession in the game. But that isn't something I want to do when I could complete the content much easier and cause far fewer headaches by playing a profession that provides more utility. Just because you can do something doesn't make it a good idea. Not everyone is going to be up to the challenge and you shouldn't expect that of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @Conqueror.3682 said: > This part catched my atention > > > > then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. > > So, last time Reaper got a nerf/fix which consisted in putting a fixed duration on jagged horrors, from the mark of horror skill (which is now called summon madness), because it was not intended that these minions were constantly healed and doing dps forever. This change removed reaper from the meta and there was no other balance to improve the damage of the class, thus making it not desirable for raid. > > So, you get the idea? what you have done is an incomplete work, it is like you are fixing a car with a faulty engine and you remove the engine, but doing no other action after. I dont care if you, as a developer are or not objetive, what i care is, you must complete the job . Beat me to it! was going to bring that up myself but got distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia.3598 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Scourge on any fight with adds is not a crutch nor does it perform poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefiris.8297 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Yes, we all know that any poorly optimized group can kill raids. Nobody said that 10 reapers, necros, or scourges, or 10 guardians in green gear cannot clear raids. These are challenge runs. Possible, just not something that is a good idea for people not wanting to do challenge runs. See, you may be selfish, but most people are not. Most people want to play something that helps their team. This has nothing to do with "class kittens", and instead with numbers. If there is a better choice, a team player will play the better choice. No team player will pick a bad choice for their team. As simple as that, and if you do not understand that, I really cannot help you. You wanting Necromancer players to have a much harder time than you do is certainly not something that speaks well of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia.3598 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Scourge is not a bad team choice for any fight that has multiple adds im not sure what ppl are missing with that makes me think no one actually even uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castitalus.6359 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > > > > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. > > > > I COULD write an entire essay without my dominant hand. It'd be difficult, sloppy and take ages. But It can be done. It works perfectly fine. Your response is effectively the same thing as telling a left handed person to write with their right hand. They could probably do it. But it'll be frustrating and not worth the effort when they could get the same task done more optimally with their left. > > It's not the same thing really because a left handed person can be taught to write perfectly well with their right hand. In this case, the Necromancer is not the most effective segment of a perfect scenario meta raid team composition, but you can take 10 of them to a raid and still down the boss with 3 minutes to spare, so where is the issue? > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > > @Maunzi.3764 said: > > > > > @Junkpile.7439 said: > > > > > I just don't understand why can't you just play class that makes lot's of DPS if being top in DPS means you so much? > > > > > > > > Because I rather want my favorite class to be useful in PVE, instead of being forced to raid on classes I like less? > > > > > > You're not forced to do anything, necro is perfectly viable for anywhere condition damage works. > > > > Selfish people that only care for themselves think so, team players do not. > Are they are not team players? > > Wanna play Necro? Play Necro. Wanna Raid? Raid. People don't want Necro? Group with other Necros or just don't play with class kitten. Wow, Reapers can do more dps when there's no other class to overwrite their ice fields? Color me shocked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @"Robert Gee.9246" said: > > @Lily.1935 said: > > Now I'm going to criticize the balance team because they, once again, went over board with the necromancer. > Criticism is a fine thing and it's one of the reason these forums exist. I don't mind responding to criticism, but I don't like responding to toxic threads, so I hope we can keep this one civil. > > I'm gonna do quick bullets here to address the rest of your points since otherwise this is gonna get long: > * Shade Aftercast - This isn't a bad idea and we've done similar things with Mesmer shatters in the past to prevent them all from activating at once. > * Shade FX Readability - Art requests can take a little time to make since they have to go through a different team and we have a pretty strict budget for them as well. I agree that this is an issue though that I hope we can get some time for. > * Shade Recharge vs Duration - I'm going to have to disagree about the recharge needing to stay in lockstep with the duration. Changing those values is how we adjust uptime and uptime was the area we intended to target with PvP and WvW splits. > * Bug or Feature - Some bugs become can become features, others don't. The Desert Shroud repeatedly proccing Dhuumfire wasn't something we felt should be kept. If Scourge needed to rely on buggy behavior to be competitive then we need to fix the bug before we figure out what needs to be improved to make it competitive. If the bug is causing blowouts in other areas of the game then we need to fix it even sooner. > > > @Lily.1935 said: > > I'm so beyond upset right now, I can't be objective right now. > As a developer I don't expect players to be objective. We expect players to be passionate, involved and subjective when it comes to their chosen profession(s). So if you're upset about something, then by all means let us know you are upset. However as developers, _it is_ our job to be objective when it comes to choosing what changes to make (and what bugs to fix). Although even if your criticism is subjective, it's still helpful to give us reasons and context behind your thoughts. ;) To be honest, I do think you guys do a reasonable work balancing classes out. However, my issue with PoF release in particular, is that some of the broken class balance issues went from testing to live without addressing at all. And honestly, there are things, even on paper, were clearly either over powered or under powered. Just take SB full counter skill for example. Just add the modifiers to this skill, and consider its CD, aoe range and damage. We did not need to get to live to figure out it is broken. We can already tell just by reading the trait lines and what the skill does (not to mention it was tested and pointed out to OP). No wounder it was broken. The same can be said in reverse for renegade. I understand you guys need to look into balance objectively, and things will not change over night, but I also do not appreciate you pushing poorly tested and/or designed things to live. It ruins the fun for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kori Jenkins.9017 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 They did not by any stretch of the imagination "go overboard" There were often 2 scourges on each team of a spvp match for a reason, there were often entire squads of scourges in wvw for a reason. They deserved the nerf they got, toxic and overpowered spec. Whining won't bring it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sieghilde.7632 Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 > @"Kori Jenkins.9017" said: > They did not by any stretch of the imagination "go overboard" > > There were often 2 scourges on each team of a spvp match for a reason, there were often entire squads of scourges in wvw for a reason. > > They deserved the nerf they got, toxic and overpowered spec. Whining won't bring it back. This is about PVE. I don't think anyone here concerned about Scourge's power in Raids is arguing about how it was doing in PVP or WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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