Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"dronte.3416" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 @"Koen.1327" give me numbers, I gave you mine. Prove that mirage gets 26s+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronte.3416 Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there First, just because it's on metabattle, it doesn't mean people actually run sword. But even when they do, it tells a lot - forced to play a power weapon on a condi build. With sword, you really give up all the sustain you have. Also, all that you listed is still nothing compared to other classes. That's the point. And 'all condi mirages' - I wonder who they are because I can't see anyone rolling mirage these days on any streams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos power builds is trash, but condi mirage is more flexible > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > 2x disort = 8s ( assuming 3 clones which will NEVER happen under pressure ) > 2x blurred frenzy = 2s > 2x axe 3 = 1,5 > torch 4 =3s ( assuming stealth counts ) > 4x dodge = 3s ( more likely 3, but I will be generous and say 4 ) > 1 mirror = 0,75s > thats 18,25s. Please correct me if im wrong, where is 26s+ > > edit. > I relised mes doesnt run the mirror trait lol, so it would be like 14s dont feel like fixing this, point still stands > edit 2 I will fix dis kitten cuz @"Koen.1327" is annoying > edit 3 forgot about mirror from healing skill, extra 0,75. not that i care so much about the numbers, but considering mortialus mentioned in the first minute you can obviously distort 3 times, use (weapon) evades and torch more often than 2 times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > > > > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos I love ppl disagreeing to facts :joy: With your argumentation we can just make all classes have only one dodge, some classes maybe even should have zero endurance dodges then. Because they have more and better defensive options considering how trash mirrors are as defensive mechanic compared to weapon or endurance dodges and considering that they don't need dodges for offensive purposes. How about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > > > > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos > power builds is trash, but condi mirage is more flexible > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > 2x disort = 8s ( assuming 3 clones which will NEVER happen under pressure ) > > 2x blurred frenzy = 2s > > 2x axe 3 = 1,5 > > torch 4 =3s ( assuming stealth counts ) > > 4x dodge = 3s ( more likely 3, but I will be generous and say 4 ) > > 1 mirror = 0,75s > > thats 18,25s. Please correct me if im wrong, where is 26s+ > > > > edit. > > I relised mes doesnt run the mirror trait lol, so it would be like 14s dont feel like fixing this, point still stands > > edit 2 I will fix dis kitten cuz @"Koen.1327" is annoying > > edit 3 forgot about mirror from healing skill, extra 0,75. > > not that i care so much about the numbers, but considering mortialus mentioned in the first minute you can obviously distort 3 times, use (weapon) evades and torch more often than 2 times ah I understand what you ment then, I calculated after how long you run out of cds, and you want over the entire duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > > > > > > > > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos > > I love ppl disagreeing to facts :joy: > > With your argumentation we can just make all classes have only one dodge, some classes maybe even should have zero endurance dodges then. Because they have more and better defensive options considering how trash mirrors are as defensive mechanic compared to weapon or endurance dodges and considering that they don't need dodges for offensive purposes. How about that? > > what part of your reply was a fact? i was ignoring math games because it's not relevant and i wasn't the one bringing it up i just mean that there is more build diversity among condi mirages, which it is and every high plat player runs something different power is trashed, i give you that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > > > > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > > > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > > > > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos > > > > I love ppl disagreeing to facts :joy: > > > > With your argumentation we can just make all classes have only one dodge, some classes maybe even should have zero endurance dodges then. Because they have more and better defensive options considering how trash mirrors are as defensive mechanic compared to weapon or endurance dodges and considering that they don't need dodges for offensive purposes. How about that? > > > > > > what part of your reply was a fact? i was ignoring math games because it's not relevant and i wasn't the one bringing it up > i just mean that there is more build diversity among condi mirages, which it is and every high plat player runs something different > power is trashed, i give you that You were arguing how much defensive rotation in secs Mirage has as reason why one dodge is enough. Several ppl told you already that other classes even pre patch with 2 dodges on Mirage had more already. Don't step back now, ofc you were arguing about defensive rotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > > > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > > > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > > > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > > > > > > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > > > > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > > > > > > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos > > > > > > I love ppl disagreeing to facts :joy: > > > > > > With your argumentation we can just make all classes have only one dodge, some classes maybe even should have zero endurance dodges then. Because they have more and better defensive options considering how trash mirrors are as defensive mechanic compared to weapon or endurance dodges and considering that they don't need dodges for offensive purposes. How about that? > > > > > > > > > > what part of your reply was a fact? i was ignoring math games because it's not relevant and i wasn't the one bringing it up > > i just mean that there is more build diversity among condi mirages, which it is and every high plat player runs something different > > power is trashed, i give you that > > You were arguing how much defensive rotation in secs Mirage has as reason why one dodge is enough. Several ppl told you already that other classes even pre patch with 2 dodges on Mirage had more already. Don't step back now, ofc you were arguing about defensive rotations. nope i just replied to OP that mirage has more in its kit then just a 50 sec distortion ("Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion") which i said was not true and mirage now uses more tools (logically, to compensate) in the number game i said that mirage now has more secs defensively than before followed by saying that sustain is less and it's useless crunching numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I got 22.5 seconds. But also mirage is running Signet of Illusions and Sword to deal with the nerf to their active defense uptime. If you wanted to run something like axe or staff/staff without signet of Illusions you're looking at 16s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > > > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > > > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > > > > > Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. > > > > > > > > You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. > > > > > > > > Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > > > > > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > > > > > > > > > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules > > > > > > > > Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pretty much all condi mirages use illusions and soi = 42,5 sec dist cd which you can reset > > > > > > > also sword is mostly run by condi mirage, but if replaced by scepter skill 2 is actually better anyway > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you pls inform yourself, there is nothing i blurred together i based everything on the current meta build for mes, which has pretty much the least defensive mes build out there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do the same math with other classes and see how much more they have without even being limited to double energy sigils and being limited to use one broken utility. Build diversity on Mirage got highly reduced for no reason while even pre patch with 2 dodges most classes had higher defensive rotation uptime already while also having higher factank sustain by stats/ armor etc. Also as explained already Chaos and the insane synergy from Chaos to Mirage (same with Inspiration also when not used) made Condimirage that forgiving tanky. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i disagree, not only myself run different traits more frequently i also see everyone else running something different, unlike before the patch where it was exclusively dueling+chaos > > > > > > > > I love ppl disagreeing to facts :joy: > > > > > > > > With your argumentation we can just make all classes have only one dodge, some classes maybe even should have zero endurance dodges then. Because they have more and better defensive options considering how trash mirrors are as defensive mechanic compared to weapon or endurance dodges and considering that they don't need dodges for offensive purposes. How about that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what part of your reply was a fact? i was ignoring math games because it's not relevant and i wasn't the one bringing it up > > > i just mean that there is more build diversity among condi mirages, which it is and every high plat player runs something different > > > power is trashed, i give you that > > > > You were arguing how much defensive rotation in secs Mirage has as reason why one dodge is enough. Several ppl told you already that other classes even pre patch with 2 dodges on Mirage had more already. Don't step back now, ofc you were arguing about defensive rotations. > > nope i just replied to OP that mirage has more in its kit then just a 50 sec distortion ("Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion") which i said was not true and mirage now uses more tools (logically, to compensate) > in the number game i said that mirage now has more secs defensively than before followed by saying that sustain is less and it's useless crunching numbers > Ok so what justifies the one dodge nerf then in your view? I don't get your argumentation then, when you didn't mean Mirage has too much defense with 2 dodges? When Mirage now gets "outdodged" by all classes (pre patch by 6 already) even though it now is limited to take every dodge and defense skill it can get, Mirage is more limited in utilies and also more pressured into axe and instead blink only now has 2 mandatory utilities to use. And those do not even compensate the endurance dodge because ambushes do not activate on Blurred Frenzy and Axe 3 and in the meta build without the mirrors on f4 trait not even on f4. > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"bravan.3876" this is a post about making mesmer viable. > I made a choice of voicing my opinion as "buff mesmer" > you instead make an opinion off nerfing everything else to mesmer kitten level, what is more likely? well with current balance team both are on the level of miracles at this point. Btw no you did totally missread my first post, read the wall of text again, it is even written in the first sentences of it, what i think is the issue with Mesmer balance. As long as Chrono and Mirage have contradicted mechanics by nonsense nerfs and trade offs we simply don't need to argue abotu what needs buff and what needs nerf. We first need to give Mirage 2 dodges back and Chrono IP and f4 back and then rework or nerf at the right spots instead. I made several balance suggestion for both, Mirage and Chrono based on deleting the nonesense nerfs before in that wall of text post. No buff for Mirage will ever be able to compensate the contradicted mechanics. Buffs at this point even have a great chance to make Mirage more broken than before because the one dodge nerf killed skill ceiling a lot and did not higher it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > Ok so what justifies the one dodge nerf then in your view? I don't get your argumentation then, when you didn't mean Mirage has too much with 2 dodges? When Mirage now gets "outdodged" by all classes (pre patch by 6 already) even though it now is limited to take every dodge and defense skill it can get, Mirage is more limited in utilies and also more pressured into axe and instead blink now has 2 mandatory utilities to use. And those do not even compensate the endurance dodge because ambushes do not activate on Blurred Frenzy and Axe 3 and in the meta build without the mirrors on f4 trait not even on f4. not sure if you quoted the wrong person but i never suggested nerfing to one dodge lol all im saying is condi mirage is just fine for ranked regardless of its meme like one dodge mes and thief mains probably the most pessimistic players in this game or on this forum compare this to core guard or dh in ranked which have never even been meta - pretty much 0 cry on this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > Ok so what justifies the one dodge nerf then in your view? I don't get your argumentation then, when you didn't mean Mirage has too much with 2 dodges? When Mirage now gets "outdodged" by all classes (pre patch by 6 already) even though it now is limited to take every dodge and defense skill it can get, Mirage is more limited in utilies and also more pressured into axe and instead blink now has 2 mandatory utilities to use. And those do not even compensate the endurance dodge because ambushes do not activate on Blurred Frenzy and Axe 3 and in the meta build without the mirrors on f4 trait not even on f4. > > not sure if you quoted the wrong person but i never suggested nerfing to one dodge lol > all im saying is condi mirage is just fine for ranked regardless of its meme like one dodge > > mes and thief mains probably the most pessimistic players in this game or on this forum > compare this to core guard or dh in ranked which have never even been meta - pretty much 0 cry on this forum > Ok seems i missunderstood you then, i thought you justified the one dodge nerf by saying Mirage is nearly unkillable with 2 dodges because of too high defensive uptime. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > Ok so what justifies the one dodge nerf then in your view? I don't get your argumentation then, when you didn't mean Mirage has too much with 2 dodges? When Mirage now gets "outdodged" by all classes (pre patch by 6 already) even though it now is limited to take every dodge and defense skill it can get, Mirage is more limited in utilies and also more pressured into axe and instead blink now has 2 mandatory utilities to use. And those do not even compensate the endurance dodge because ambushes do not activate on Blurred Frenzy and Axe 3 and in the meta build without the mirrors on f4 trait not even on f4. > > not sure if you quoted the wrong person but i never suggested nerfing to one dodge lol > all im saying is condi mirage is just fine for ranked regardless of its meme like one dodge > > **mes and thief mains probably the most pessimistic players in this game or on this forum** > compare this to core guard or dh in ranked which have never even been meta - pretty much 0 cry on this forum > That's necros and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girex.8052 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I returned playing after many months of absence and I am so glad mirage was gutted to the ground, I wish holo and revenant had the same treatment, but I guess they have to leave at least few no-brainer professions for bad pvp players to get consistent wins, before the king was condi mirage, now it's holo and condi rev. I felt always that power mesmer had a pretty high learning curve and skill cap, and so i am sad to see it nerfed the same way as that condi abomination, even now if you are not carefully you can still easily die to condi mirage, and this says everything how broken it was before. What I didn't like at all were the chrono changes, making it such a clunky spec to use. If they do buffs again we return to same state as before. I was always a bronze-silver player and in the season of condi mirage being king i reached plat, totally not deserved, so let's pay attention to buff again. Now I get for easy climb the choice is either holo or condi rev, both no-brainer and easy to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables.4659 Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 My account was suspended for making a slightly more pointed version of this comment a while back, but op is on point with this. Both chrono and mirage were plauged by oppressive traits that dumbed down the class by providing easy to play and hard to counter builds that ruin everyone else's fun. For chrono this was chronophantasma and for mirage it was Infinite Horizon. It isn't even about condition vs power. Both builds in their respective times allowed the mesmer to pump out ai that dealt large amounts of damage without the need to actively fight their enemy. When a class can spend upwards of 75% of a fight kiting/stealthing/evading/ect while still dealing as much damage as classes that need to actively engage with their enemy... there's a problem. Condi mirage would've been a nightmare in the current environment, but gutting mirage as a whole was not the way to handle that. We need our dodge back, and one of many potential solutions needs to be implemented to reign in IH condi mirage. The easiest method would be to remove IH entirely and replace it with some other meme-cloak-esque trait, but I would prefer they go further and reevaluate illusions entirely. Something along the lines of removing phantasms and letting mesmers use those attacks (or modified versions) directly. Clones could have their attack effects removed and be given a massive hp increase so that they act more like a resource for shatters/bodies to absorb non piercing projectiles and less like minions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Mesmer would be a lot more fun if phantasm's weren't AI and were just a normal attack. Phantasms are really annoying and frustrating to deal damage with in both PvE and PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLT.1469 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Mesmer seems to be the most played class in my games, the class must be good at something? Being weak when played by a human is the trade off for being easy to bot with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"SLT.1469" said: > Mesmer seems to be the most played class in my games, the class must be good at something? Being weak when played by a human is the trade off for being easy to bot with I guess anet doesnt want to discriminate bots, there is place for everything in their game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 To the people arguing over the dodge duration it's ultimately semantics. We are still talking about very front loaded long cooldowns, and 1 evasion per weapon set, on top of taking signet which is simply what mesmer has been forced into with the constant stream of survivability nerfs. Mirage has gotten to the point where it can't even use it's two hand weapons anymore (which had the best ambushes imo), and I'd also argue things like axe 3 put all your resources in a vulnerable position to be cleaved, and signet of illusions with distortion is only large value at the expense of 6 clones. So frankly the issues compound, and even further beyond what I described here. A big contribution for mirage's lack of viability is that **even if** mirage could hypothetically evade for a strait 30 seconds on 1 button, with no other evade, but still able to do damage during it; Because of the very nature of how mesmer is played with the innate 'heavily summoned oriented resource', that means you can simply: just not engage it, walk away, or simply avoid the few things that substantially hurt; Then kill it when it's vulnerable. Plus outside of GS combo with stealth, (chaos being a line that power mirage cannot afford to take btw) everything else has very generous tells. Mesmer on a whole does not have reliable means to force combat, lock down opponents, nor _substantially_ pressure fleeing opponents, or give chase without expending the same resources needed to secure a kill- At least compared to what every other class can do. In almost all aspects of any competitive setting being able to **Respond on demand** to a powerful attack, or capitalize on an opening is what matters at higher skillful play. As it is now bads will throw all their skills into an invulnerable/blocking/dodging opponent and die regardless of class they go against, anyone with any level of game sense will wait for openings and play around lengthy cooldowns. This is why with a thief or ranger you can avoid every single damaging move if you know what your opponent can do. While mesmer much more quickly runs out of defensive options, and that is juxtaposed to the offensive limitations mentioned above. Condi mirage can do 'okay' while under certain conditions, and admittedly conquest format helps force that a little. However, that's still significantly worse than where the game is now and represents a double standard compared to literally every other class in the roster. Also the point of duration is moot. Once a fight passes around the 30 second mark you out evade the mirage with pretty much every medium character, along with a few others (which is the majority of the roster). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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