viquing.8254 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > And just as on other classes (Engi Alchemie for exmple) those 2 from Mesmer out of 7 are very problematic. Agree to me or not i don't care. It is my opinion, Chaos and Inspiration have too low skill floor/ ceiling and are either too passive (Chaos) or too spammy (Inspiration) designed. And because Mesmer has one of the strongest basic mechanics with one of the highest active outplay potential it is important that it doesnt have mistake friendly stuff in addition. A mesmer with low skill ceiling build and too low skill floor on average usefulness will always be broken. If oyu want an easy time there are 8 other classes you can pick. Wish are also too easy atm btw. At least they did not get their mechanics destroyed until now but wait for the next Anet move in terms of trade offs. It will be just anopther mess then. Yeah and when we go into detailled comparison of what are passives in thoses line, we didn't find much than in other but stay into your opinions. > Whatever what i said still stands: I talk about conquest meta balance, WvW and Duelserver builds have nothing to do with it at all. > Ok then if you are talking about mesmer conquest during core : mesmer wasn't meta outside of few tournament team to babysit them. > Funny you think i have any impact on balance, i guess i do not wintrade, acc share and sell titles enough for that, or i have the wrogn friends. > And deleting CI was necessary and has nothing to do with Mirage or any other Mesmer spec. It is broken by itself already. That has to do with providing a lock down that needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to get countered, what is just broken on a class with oneshot potential, even when the class has no instant max range interrupt tools. With MoD it gets even more crazy. And it doesn't matter how much cd you have on interrupts. When literally ONE random interrupt on an autoattack is enough to win a fight then its a zero counterplay killer mechanic should not exist, not even with 300 secs cd, just like passive life safer should not exist, also not with 300 secs cd. Simple as it is and the logic in that one is so obvious that i cannot believe that you and apharma still do not understand it. CI was broken since game release, just lucky it was not use that much before BD in Chaos got nerfed (at least in PvP conquest not, only in WvW and on Duelservers what was cancer enough) so ppl needed to take the second lame stuff in Chaos that makes sense for a point holder (PU stealth simply doesn't make sense on a side node build). Also why you want might in a defensive traitline? We all complain about classes with too much sustain AND too much dmg in the same time, you just want the same for Mesmer? No, just delete every dmg multiplier and offensive boon on defensive traitlines already, they have way too less opportunity costs in dmg anyway. I would even vote for offensive stat penalty on defensive traitlines and defensive stat penalty on offensive traitlines (as we had in core GW2) and that for all classes ofc. Huhu, lucky you I'm lazy. Glab to see others opinions that we didn't share. ICD on everything isn't the solutions yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 @"bravan.3876" this is a post about making mesmer viable. I made a choice of voicing my opinion as "buff mesmer" you instead make an opinion off nerfing everything else to mesmer shitty level, what is more likely? well with current balance team both are on the level of miracles at this point. And you miss entire balance design point, there CAN be hybrid traitlines and there SHOULD be such traitlines, all they need to do is balance them properly IF dps traitline gives me Y damage tank traitline gives me X survivability then its fine for hybrid to give me 0,5 y and 0,5 x. But you only work in absolutes, something is either absolute or it is not. As for chaos getting nerfed thx to you? it was 50% joke, 50% truth and 50% lie kinda deal. Devs see whining devs nerf whats whined about, and you were rather vocal about nerfing chaos, to the point where it looked like personal vendetta. like there is so many more lines in many other classes that do the shit that chaos did but better, alchemy comes to mind first. TLDR. - you whined on chaos, so its partially your fault its unplayable. - hybrid traitlines should have place in the game, as long as they are balanced right, it gives more choices and more build diversity - game is not made in absolutes something can be in the middle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.). > > > > > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained. > > > > > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.). > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > > > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities. > > > > > > The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying. > > > > > > > > > > Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD. > > > > Don't think there was only the monobuild you see in tournament who needed a hudge team assist, I was a full WvW players during this time and there was plethora of builds who made mesmer way behind other class when talking about duelling, from phantasms to blackwater passing by some other variants. IP builds were just the top of the iceberg. > > > > > Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions. > > > > Nice to see we agree on something. > > > > > > > > > > I am not talking about WvW. WvW always was an unbalanced mess and ofc cancer like PU stealthspam or Inspiration Mantra spam, Phantamsspam and go afk lets Ai win for you duelling builds were used there. Op stats, op sigills, op everything, WvW literally doesn't count for any balance discussion. Only PvE balance in GvG arenas is worse. I am talking about conquest meta balance and i think the most healthy for Mesmer is an offensive roaming build with offensive or rotational teamsupport, if it is condi (suboptimal because of the wrong design of condis gamewide and the op normal clone autoattack condi dmg application) or power. > > > Pushing Mesmer into a conquest duel side node role will never be balanced in my view. The tools it needs in addition to its basic mechanics (which are one of the strongest in the game, with the highest active outplay potential) to be a good duelist also surviving +1s well, will always make it op. It literally needs to trait into Chaos or Inspiration which are, in my view and for the already mentioned reasons, in current state still highly problematic. Mesmer needs to be balanced in a way that the most viable/useful conquest meta is high skill ceiling, otherwise Mesmer is broken. And the best way in my opinion is to balance Mesmer in a way that a roaming/ offensive teamsupport build is the most useful in conquest and for that meta, even though Mesmer has easier builds available. Not the monkey side node role. > > > > Rolf stop going again in a skill discussion please. it wasn't afk AI at all and before HoT WvW stats gap between PvP was not hudge at all. And more than that there weren't full traitline taken before june 2015 patch. There was big mixt of multiple traitline. > > Pushing mesmer not into duel side node will require more out of combat mobility (mean mes has the worst swiftness uptime for example.) or bring more teamfight tools (like SoIn or glamour.). > > And a class is around 7 traitlines not just 3... It tic me like always when I read your posts. > > And just as on other classes (Engi Alchemie for exmple) those 2 from Mesmer out of 7 are very problematic. Agree to me or not i don't care. It is my opinion, Chaos and Inspiration have too low skill floor/ ceiling and are either too passive (Chaos) or too spammy (Inspiration) designed. And because Mesmer has one of the strongest basic mechanics with one of the highest active outplay potential it is important that it doesn't have mistake friendly stuff in addition. A mesmer with low skill ceiling build and too low skill floor on average usefulness will always be broken. If you want an easy time there are 8 other classes you can pick. Which are also too easy to play atm btw, even compared with their own basic mechanics. At least they did not get their mechanics destroyed until now but wait for the next Anet move in terms of trade offs. It will be just another mess then. > > Whatever what i said still stands: I talk about conquest meta balance, WvW and Duelserver builds have nothing to do with it at all. > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > worst autoattacks in game, YEP > > > > phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP > > > > "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol > > > > thief op and hardcounters mes YEP > > > > most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush. > > > > shattered clones AI stupid YEP > > > > > > As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is. > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" no clue why you talk about scepter 3 when i talk about Mirage mechanic IH clone ambushes > > > > I'm not talking about scepter 3. It's scepter autos with 3 clones and scepter ambush with 3 clones. > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage. > > > > > > > > no ammount of CI will make me use chrono. > > > > CI should have gotten ICD and be left as it was. It was one of the only usable traits that gave might in sustained manner. Now that chaos is gutted, crusade was a success I guess, thx for that @"bravan.3876" btw. > > > > mesmer has no boons whatsoever, no might, no swiftness, no protection, no regeneration, no retaliation, fury only in overnerfed dueling. > > > > meta mes has 0 boons, thats not even bad, its pathetic, its actually kitten pathetic that "meta" build cant get a single boon ( no 5-10% uptime on vigor doesnt count ) > > > > In fact its so kitten that Sigil of Absorption gives me more boons then my entire build combined. > > > > > > Then they should prob overhaul mes, because no buffs is insanity. > > > > > > I think they might need to overhaul quickness somehow > > > > > > Also if CI had a ICD how long like 10 seconds? 20 seconds? > > > > last patch? 8s propably, now? no idea. 10-15. > > i would be content with bug fixes at this point > > > > EDIT or at least rework kitten traits into something usefull like mental anguish. > > they could make it give bonus % dmg to shatters per clone ( the more you have the bigger the bonus ) and make landed shatter give long lasting might, lik 1 might for 15s. > > now suddenly you have a trait that is no longer meme used to try to 1shot people and absolutely useless in anything else. now you have trait thats made for sustained damage and promotes proper use of class resources. > > Funny you think i have any impact on balance, i guess i do not wintrade, acc share and sell titles enough for that, or i have the wrogn friends. > And deleting CI was necessary and has nothing to do with Mirage or any other Mesmer spec. It is broken by itself already. That has to do with providing a lock down that needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to get countered, what is just broken on a class with oneshot potential, even when the class has no instant max range interrupt tools. With MoD it gets even more crazy. And it doesn't matter how much cd you have on interrupts. When literally ONE random interrupt on an autoattack is enough to win a fight then its a zero counterplay killer mechanic should not exist, not even with 300 secs cd, just like passive life safer should not exist, also not with 300 secs cd. Simple as it is and the logic in that one is so obvious that i cannot believe that you and apharma still do not understand it. CI was broken since game release, just lucky it was not use that much before BD in Chaos got nerfed (at least in PvP conquest not, only in WvW and on Duelservers what was cancer enough) so ppl needed to take the second lame stuff in Chaos that makes sense for a point holder (PU stealth simply doesn't make sense on a side node build). Also why you want might in a defensive traitline? We all complain about classes with too much sustain AND too much dmg in the same time, you just want the same for Mesmer? No, just delete every dmg multiplier and offensive boon on defensive traitlines already, they have way too less opportunity costs in dmg anyway. I would even vote for offensive stat penalty on defensive traitlines and defensive stat penalty on offensive traitlines (as we had in core GW2) and that for all classes ofc. > > And ICD on old CI would even make it less skillbased, less active and less tactical, because the trait might be on cd when you rly need to interrupt something, like a keyskill (oh wait, you don't need tactical on purpose interrupts on keyskills with broken old CI trait, my bad rofl, just spam and hope to get an autoattack interrupted). But i am not surprised, you complained about how passive and useless for on purpose tactical plays the reflect on dodge trait felt after last nerf, missing that it is exactly the added ICD causing this passivity and prevents timed offensive dodges for the reflect purpose only. ICDs on dodge traits do not make sense at all, i explained why very well already several times. And also here the logic is that obvious, that it is hard to understand that ppl still don't get it. I got a question why not instead of deleting it overhaul how CI works so its not a op interrupt skill then? or delete the skill and rep with something useful for the class but not broken op? I mean if its possible overhaul CI so its not useless but not broken, if its not possible delete and rep skills and overhaul so mes is decent? i mean its gotta be possible with some effort. It would be a crying shame to leave mes busted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 @"Axl.8924" 1 it takes effort 2 devs want mesmer dead 3 devs thought it would be funny take your pick lul this is dev response to our nev and "improved CI" "we think the new version of Chaotic Interruption is pretty powerful" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 When Bravan and any mesmer main starts a conversation, the thread goes from 10 replies to 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > When Bravan and any mesmer main starts a conversation, the thread goes from 10 replies to 30. I think it has to do with him tagging everyone, and writing wall off text that is intricately design to piss everyone at least slightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"bravan.3876" this is a post about making mesmer viable. > I made a choice of voicing my opinion as "buff mesmer" > you instead make an opinion off nerfing everything else to mesmer kitten level, what is more likely? well with current balance team both are on the level of miracles at this point. > And you miss entire balance design point, there CAN be hybrid traitlines and there SHOULD be such traitlines, all they need to do is balance them properly > IF dps traitline gives me Y damage > tank traitline gives me X survivability > then its fine for hybrid to give me 0,5 y and 0,5 x. > But you only work in absolutes, something is either absolute or it is not. > As for chaos getting nerfed thx to you? it was 50% joke, 50% truth and 50% lie kinda deal. Devs see whining devs nerf whats whined about, and you were rather vocal about nerfing chaos, to the point where it looked like personal vendetta. like there is so many more lines in many other classes that do the kitten that chaos did but better, alchemy comes to mind first. > > TLDR. > - you whined on chaos, so its partially your fault its unplayable. > - hybrid traitlines should have place in the game, as long as they are balanced right, it gives more choices and more build diversity > - game is not made in absolutes something can be in the middle > First Chaos is not unplayable, it is still problematic, only because Mirage condi dmg got nerfed in a way that it finally cannot take a defensive traitline and still does high dmg anymore prevents the meta Condimirage from taking Chaos or Inspiration. That was one way of fixing some of the issues with old IH-Condimirage, it was the easier and the worst way but we know Anet. Not my fault. I made way better balance suggestion to deal with old IH-Condimirage problem and to deal with Chaos and Inspiration. Yes sure there can be hybrid traitlines but in GW2 the core defensive traitlines mostly give 100% sustain and that also in a low skill ceiling/ floor way +50% dmg. I talk about opportunity costs, that is exactly what you say with balacing traitlines around x% dmg vs x% sustain. Exactly this balance is not real in GW2 for most classes defensive core traitlines and yes i mentioned Alchemie on Engi as another example. L2read (everything) and l2understand before answering pls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > Ambushes should not be tied to evade looking at how it encapsulate mirage to maximising endurance (and anet to nerf vigor and evade.). > > > > > > > Maybe each phatasm spawn fill a bar who can be activated to ambush when a certain amount is completed with a F5 button. Or by amno system like @"bravan.3876" explained. > > > > > > > And clones shouldn't apply condition as it create too much disparities between condi and power versions.. (whoses damage can then come back to mesmer skills.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > > > > > Mesmer core was the best duellist by far and had most build banned in duel/tournament back in time. Only left the "shatter burst" which was only 30% of possiblities. > > > > > > > The only reason it was highly represented in competitive is because of stealth sustain for some of their temporisation and the lack of in point staying. > > > > > > > > > > > > Core meta in conquest was Domination Duelling Illusion (if it was called like that back then, i do not remember actually) power shatter, for sure no points spend in Inspiration or Chaos and no condi, played with Moa, Illusion of Life, Portal and blink. Means not 3, not even 2 but only 1 duel utility. Instead elite and 2 utilities tied to teamsupport on a roaming class pain training together with the Thief, what also hold it viable even though it always was countered by Thief, but the pain train could peel for each other. Neither stealthspam abuse nor MoP spam was used back then. Most healthy Mesmer conquest meta ever, maybe aside from current interrupt Powermirage without broken traits like old CI or old CS giving stun/ immob instant , max range on MoD. > > > > > Don't think there was only the monobuild you see in tournament who needed a hudge team assist, I was a full WvW players during this time and there was plethora of builds who made mesmer way behind other class when talking about duelling, from phantasms to blackwater passing by some other variants. IP builds were just the top of the iceberg. > > > > > > Btw outsourcing the ambush window activation from dodge button to a Mirage specific f5 button was on of my suggestions. > > > > > Nice to see we agree on something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not talking about WvW. WvW always was an unbalanced mess and ofc cancer like PU stealthspam or Inspiration Mantra spam, Phantamsspam and go afk lets Ai win for you duelling builds were used there. Op stats, op sigills, op everything, WvW literally doesn't count for any balance discussion. Only PvE balance in GvG arenas is worse. I am talking about conquest meta balance and i think the most healthy for Mesmer is an offensive roaming build with offensive or rotational teamsupport, if it is condi (suboptimal because of the wrong design of condis gamewide and the op normal clone autoattack condi dmg application) or power. > > > > Pushing Mesmer into a conquest duel side node role will never be balanced in my view. The tools it needs in addition to its basic mechanics (which are one of the strongest in the game, with the highest active outplay potential) to be a good duelist also surviving +1s well, will always make it op. It literally needs to trait into Chaos or Inspiration which are, in my view and for the already mentioned reasons, in current state still highly problematic. Mesmer needs to be balanced in a way that the most viable/useful conquest meta is high skill ceiling, otherwise Mesmer is broken. And the best way in my opinion is to balance Mesmer in a way that a roaming/ offensive teamsupport build is the most useful in conquest and for that meta, even though Mesmer has easier builds available. Not the monkey side node role. > > > > > > Rolf stop going again in a skill discussion please. it wasn't afk AI at all and before HoT WvW stats gap between PvP was not hudge at all. And more than that there weren't full traitline taken before june 2015 patch. There was big mixt of multiple traitline. > > > Pushing mesmer not into duel side node will require more out of combat mobility (mean mes has the worst swiftness uptime for example.) or bring more teamfight tools (like SoIn or glamour.). > > > And a class is around 7 traitlines not just 3... It tic me like always when I read your posts. > > > > And just as on other classes (Engi Alchemie for exmple) those 2 from Mesmer out of 7 are very problematic. Agree to me or not i don't care. It is my opinion, Chaos and Inspiration have too low skill floor/ ceiling and are either too passive (Chaos) or too spammy (Inspiration) designed. And because Mesmer has one of the strongest basic mechanics with one of the highest active outplay potential it is important that it doesn't have mistake friendly stuff in addition. A mesmer with low skill ceiling build and too low skill floor on average usefulness will always be broken. If you want an easy time there are 8 other classes you can pick. Which are also too easy to play atm btw, even compared with their own basic mechanics. At least they did not get their mechanics destroyed until now but wait for the next Anet move in terms of trade offs. It will be just another mess then. > > > > Whatever what i said still stands: I talk about conquest meta balance, WvW and Duelserver builds have nothing to do with it at all. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > worst autoattacks in game, YEP > > > > > phantasms are kitten versions of abilities from other classes but with more ways to fail to work and with more counterplay YEP > > > > > "mirage" op op but in reality ambushes make the class bearable, can you actually imagine roaming as mesmer without sword ambush? lol > > > > > thief op and hardcounters mes YEP > > > > > most important abilities on which class relies to get job done are bugged and refuse to work YEP cough, sword ambush, sword 3, axe 3, axe ambush. > > > > > shattered clones AI stupid YEP > > > > > > > > As long as the average rdm pleb gets lost in clones they will complain. The lower the skill lvl in this game gets (and you can see at Mesmer balance how low the skill already is and how clueless devs are) the more complains about Mesmer will come up, no matter how weak or strong Mesmer actually is. > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" no clue why you talk about scepter 3 when i talk about Mirage mechanic IH clone ambushes > > > > > > I'm not talking about scepter 3. It's scepter autos with 3 clones and scepter ambush with 3 clones. > > > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > Is there no way to do something like make chaotic interrupt useful for the non broken spec if its core core work with it only somehow? like move it into chrono elite or something so that it cannot be used with mirage. > > > > > > > > > > no ammount of CI will make me use chrono. > > > > > CI should have gotten ICD and be left as it was. It was one of the only usable traits that gave might in sustained manner. Now that chaos is gutted, crusade was a success I guess, thx for that @"bravan.3876" btw. > > > > > mesmer has no boons whatsoever, no might, no swiftness, no protection, no regeneration, no retaliation, fury only in overnerfed dueling. > > > > > meta mes has 0 boons, thats not even bad, its pathetic, its actually kitten pathetic that "meta" build cant get a single boon ( no 5-10% uptime on vigor doesnt count ) > > > > > In fact its so kitten that Sigil of Absorption gives me more boons then my entire build combined. > > > > > > > > Then they should prob overhaul mes, because no buffs is insanity. > > > > > > > > I think they might need to overhaul quickness somehow > > > > > > > > Also if CI had a ICD how long like 10 seconds? 20 seconds? > > > > > > last patch? 8s propably, now? no idea. 10-15. > > > i would be content with bug fixes at this point > > > > > > EDIT or at least rework kitten traits into something usefull like mental anguish. > > > they could make it give bonus % dmg to shatters per clone ( the more you have the bigger the bonus ) and make landed shatter give long lasting might, lik 1 might for 15s. > > > now suddenly you have a trait that is no longer meme used to try to 1shot people and absolutely useless in anything else. now you have trait thats made for sustained damage and promotes proper use of class resources. > > > > Funny you think i have any impact on balance, i guess i do not wintrade, acc share and sell titles enough for that, or i have the wrogn friends. > > And deleting CI was necessary and has nothing to do with Mirage or any other Mesmer spec. It is broken by itself already. That has to do with providing a lock down that needs a stunbreak AND a condiremove to get countered, what is just broken on a class with oneshot potential, even when the class has no instant max range interrupt tools. With MoD it gets even more crazy. And it doesn't matter how much cd you have on interrupts. When literally ONE random interrupt on an autoattack is enough to win a fight then its a zero counterplay killer mechanic should not exist, not even with 300 secs cd, just like passive life safer should not exist, also not with 300 secs cd. Simple as it is and the logic in that one is so obvious that i cannot believe that you and apharma still do not understand it. CI was broken since game release, just lucky it was not use that much before BD in Chaos got nerfed (at least in PvP conquest not, only in WvW and on Duelservers what was cancer enough) so ppl needed to take the second lame stuff in Chaos that makes sense for a point holder (PU stealth simply doesn't make sense on a side node build). Also why you want might in a defensive traitline? We all complain about classes with too much sustain AND too much dmg in the same time, you just want the same for Mesmer? No, just delete every dmg multiplier and offensive boon on defensive traitlines already, they have way too less opportunity costs in dmg anyway. I would even vote for offensive stat penalty on defensive traitlines and defensive stat penalty on offensive traitlines (as we had in core GW2) and that for all classes ofc. > > > > And ICD on old CI would even make it less skillbased, less active and less tactical, because the trait might be on cd when you rly need to interrupt something, like a keyskill (oh wait, you don't need tactical on purpose interrupts on keyskills with broken old CI trait, my bad rofl, just spam and hope to get an autoattack interrupted). But i am not surprised, you complained about how passive and useless for on purpose tactical plays the reflect on dodge trait felt after last nerf, missing that it is exactly the added ICD causing this passivity and prevents timed offensive dodges for the reflect purpose only. ICDs on dodge traits do not make sense at all, i explained why very well already several times. And also here the logic is that obvious, that it is hard to understand that ppl still don't get it. > > I got a question why not instead of deleting it overhaul how CI works so its not a op interrupt skill then? or delete the skill and rep with something useful for the class but not broken op? > > I mean if its possible overhaul CI so its not useless but not broken, if its not possible delete and rep skills and overhaul so mes is decent? i mean its gotta be possible with some effort. It would be a crying shame to leave mes busted. > Yes that was my balance suggestion for CI. I am not a fan of the new one, useless and also not skilled because rdm as hell. The randomness prevents it from being useful for the player and the opponent in a tactical and skillful way. My suggestion, what i build up together with other forum users back then, was replacing just the immob with another utility condition. Sadly Anet did the rdm nonsense instead. 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mortrialus.3062 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense. Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! Your unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > > > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense. > > Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! You unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here. You explanation amounts to "They do condi damage that's PASSIVE and that's BAD" despite both of the attacks being some of the more fair in the game when stripped of infinite horizon. The scepter ambush is barely a dps increase over auto attacking and the staff had a 1s long cast time and a projectile you could counter play by circle strafing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > > > > > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense. > > > > Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! You unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here. > > You explanation amounts to "They do condi damage that's PASSIVE and that's BAD" despite both of the attacks being some of the more fair in the game when stripped of infinite horizon. The scepter ambush is barely a dps increase over auto attacking and the staff had a 1s long cast time and a projectile you could counter play by circle strafing. Sry but you are either not able to read or to understand, i do not care at this point you are not constructive at all and i am not in the mood to waste more time with you. "when stripped of IH" yes that is exactly the point rofl... holy cow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > > > > > > > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense. > > > > > > Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! You unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here. > > > > You explanation amounts to "They do condi damage that's PASSIVE and that's BAD" despite both of the attacks being some of the more fair in the game when stripped of infinite horizon. The scepter ambush is barely a dps increase over auto attacking and the staff had a 1s long cast time and a projectile you could counter play by circle strafing. > > Sry but you are either not able to read or to understand, i do not care at this point you are not constructive at all and i am not in the mood to waste more time with you. > "when stripped of IH" yes that is exactly the point rofl... holy cow... IH's main problem was that clones could be activated to do passive damage without the mirage needing to perform the ambush attack themselves. Not the damage. Not the animation. And not the skills. If IH was changed to "When you ambush attack your clones ambush with you" or "Increase Your Ambush's effectiveness based on the number of clones you have" would largely have fixed the trait. Again, you have a very specific vendetta against the staff and scepter ambushes for no reason and conditions just in general and I'm sick of seeing it bog down literally every thread. They are beyond fairly designed. The scepter ambush is a long channel that's only a bit stronger than auto attacking even with 3 clones and IH, and the majority of the animation lies outside of Mirage Cloak due to the length of the cast making it plenty interruptible. And Chaos Vortex had a long channel that left a lot of it able to be interrupted and with an overly fair projectile that you can literally circle strafe around. Your suggestions are nonsense stuff like "instead of Chaos Vortex being an attack it should just apply cripple" and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > I missread that, my bad. I don't have dmg numbers from golem tests, all i can say is that pre last big patch clone ambushes, in particular on scepter and staff did too much, aside from the coutnerplay they have and should have, that is no argument. I am too tired now to explain again why condi ambushes are wrong designed and need a rework and why condis in GW2 are also wrong designed just from the basics (it is not a Mesmer specific problem). If you feel better when thinking i just have a biased vendetta vs something, even though i could explain and listed a lot of reasons why i think that, then go for it. I already explained several times what should be done to condi ambushes and maybe to power ambushes when giving Mirage 2 dodges back, i will not do it again. Agree or not, that is up to you. > > > > > > > > > > I've heard you explain it. Your explanation is stupid nonsense. > > > > > > > > Constructive pretty much xD All those good arguemnts and explanations from you. Impressive! You unfounded opinion is noticed but irrelevant. At least easy exit for me here. > > > > > > You explanation amounts to "They do condi damage that's PASSIVE and that's BAD" despite both of the attacks being some of the more fair in the game when stripped of infinite horizon. The scepter ambush is barely a dps increase over auto attacking and the staff had a 1s long cast time and a projectile you could counter play by circle strafing. > > > > Sry but you are either not able to read or to understand, i do not care at this point you are not constructive at all and i am not in the mood to waste more time with you. > > "when stripped of IH" yes that is exactly the point rofl... holy cow... > > IH's main problem was that clones could be activated to do passive damage without the mirage needing to perform the ambush attack themselves. Not the damage. Not the animation. And not the skills. If IH was changed to "When you ambush attack your clones ambush with you" or "Increase Your Ambush's effectiveness based on the number of clones you have" would largely have fixed the trait. > > Again, you have a very specific vendetta against the staff and scepter ambushes for no reason and conditions just in general and I'm sick of seeing it bog down literally every thread. They are beyond fairly designed. The scepter ambush is a long channel that's only a bit stronger than auto attacking even with 3 clones and IH, and the majority of the animation lies outside of Mirage Cloak due to the length of the cast making it plenty interruptible. And Chaos Vortex had a long channel that left a lot of it able to be interrupted and with an overly fair projectile that you can literally circle strafe around. No, you did not understand anything i ever said since the last 2 years and i do not try it again. Stay with your opinion, as said it is irrelevant for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalisto.5780 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 i dont feel mesmer is weak i feel most meta things are op i feel mirage and spellbreaker may be the power level anet want to balance things around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"Khalisto.5780" said: > i dont feel mesmer is weak i feel most meta things are op > > i feel mirage and spellbreaker may be the power level anet want to balance things around you have several states of balance. - OP - Very strong - strong - OK - Bad - Very bad - Utter trash troll pick. Every class NEEDS to be in very strong/strong category if its not then its a failure. I would say that mesmer and warrior fight teeth and nail for the very bad spot. While most others sit at very strong/strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronte.3416 Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"pacwax.3402" said: > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"dronte.3416" said: > > @"pacwax.3402" said: > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > @"pacwax.3402" said: > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) -50% endurance 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one what do you mean more defensive options bro xd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > @"pacwax.3402" said: > > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. > > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. > > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. > > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. > > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. > > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > -50% endurance > 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2 > 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one > what do you mean more defensive options bro xd You can run all stealth utilities it'll be fine dude I'm sure no one will complain about that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > @"pacwax.3402" said: > > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. > > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. > > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. > > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. > > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. > > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > -50% endurance > 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2 > 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one > what do you mean more defensive options bro xd alright "options" is ofc wrong because before the patch you could pick the same but then with lower cd just currently in the kit there is more than just sc2, dist and dodges vigor uptime is also much less relevant cuz u don't use it so much offensively but if you want to you can still pick chaos and have 100% vigor most of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > @"pacwax.3402" said: > > > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > > > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > > > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. > > > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. > > > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. > > > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. > > > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. > > > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. > > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > -50% endurance > > 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2 > > 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one > > what do you mean more defensive options bro xd > > alright "options" is ofc wrong because before the patch you could pick the same but then with lower cd > just currently in the kit there is more than just sc2, dist and dodges > vigor uptime is also much less relevant cuz u don't use it so much offensively but if you want to you can still pick chaos and have 100% vigor most of the time > I haven't crunched the numbers post patch but before the megabalance thread the, at the time, meta Chaos Staff Scepter Mirage had 26 seconds of active defenses across the first minute of combat. Spellbreaker, ranger and holo were at 30 seconds, Pistol Whip Thief and Glint Shiro were at 35 seconds and Fire Weaver was at 39s. And aside from Sword Weaver who deserved the biggest hit mesmers active defenses got hit harder than any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Koen.1327" said: > > > > > @"dronte.3416" said: > > > > > > @"pacwax.3402" said: > > > > > > The one dodge change for mirage is fine. Your mirage cloak does so much that having mirage with 2 dodges would be absolute cancer and almost unkillable in the hands of a good player. You also have so many other ways to avoid damage on mesmer, that even now it's really hard to kill. > > > > > > It's still viable in high tier ranked and daily ATs and the main reason it's not played at the highest competitive level is because it gets hardcountered by d/p thieves. As for 3v3s the only viable builds there were all teamfight/support and mesmer is played as a roamer/sidenoder. > > > > > > I am a mesmer main btw so if anything i am biased towards buffing mesmer. > > > > > I mean this is just totally wrong. It wasn't at all unkillable with 2 dodges either, especially after the mirage cloak duration nerf. > > > > > The thing that made it 'unkillable' is the confusion it caused with the teleports and target switching and stealths that confused bad players - and the disengage abilities. I would personally give it all up to have 2 dodges back. > > > > > Literally avoiding damage is only possible with Distortion, which is in best case is 3 seconds on a 50 second cooldown.. > > > > > It's not at all viable against decent players. They either focus you down super easily (as they know how squishy it is) or just simply let you live because mirage does not provide any team utility hits like a wet noodle compared to other builds. > > > > > Another problem with only one dodge is Mirage Cloak is both an offensive and defensive ability. Obviously with 1 dodge you will never be able to utilize the offensive part because it's simply way too risky to stay around without a dodge. > > > > > > > > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > > > > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > > > > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) > > > > > > -50% endurance > > > 50% cd nerf on axe 3/scept 2 > > > 0 vigor uptime against 100% of the old one > > > what do you mean more defensive options bro xd > > > > alright "options" is ofc wrong because before the patch you could pick the same but then with lower cd > > just currently in the kit there is more than just sc2, dist and dodges > > vigor uptime is also much less relevant cuz u don't use it so much offensively but if you want to you can still pick chaos and have 100% vigor most of the time > > > > I haven't crunched the numbers post patch but before the megabalance thread the, at the time, meta Chaos Staff Scepter Mirage had 26 seconds of active defenses across the first minute of combat. Spellbreaker, ranger and holo were at 30 seconds, Pistol Whip Thief and Glint Shiro were at 35 seconds and Fire Weaver was at 39s. And aside from Sword Weaver who deserved the biggest hit mesmers active defenses got hit harder than any of them. right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 2x disort = 8s ( assuming 3 clones which will NEVER happen under pressure ) 2x blurred frenzy = 2s 2x axe 3 = 1,5 torch 4 =3s ( assuming stealth counts ) 4x dodge = 3s ( more likely 3, but I will be generous and say 4 ) 1 mirror = 0,75s thats 18,25s. Please correct me if im wrong, where is 26s+ edit. I relised mes doesnt run the mirror trait lol, so it would be like 14s dont feel like fixing this, point still stands edit 2 I will fix dis shit cuz @"Koen.1327" is annoying edit 3 forgot about mirror from healing skill, extra 0,75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronte.3416 Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 > @"Koen.1327" said: > lol one dodge removed and suddenly only a 50 sec distortion is left? > distortion being 42,5 sec cd proving 4 sec immune btw, which u can reset, axe3, sw2, torch 4 and you still have f3 and jaunt to just go up a ledge > the current meta build is not filled with boons anymore but plenty defensive options left (more than before) Check your facts again. It's 50 sec cd. 4 sec immune if you are shattering with 3 full clones, which is unreliable in the current hevy AoE meta. But let's say this is still okay. Reset how? Signet of Illusions? One of the worst skills out there, you can't give up a utility slot for that. You are blurring all traits and weapons altogether btw. Condi does not run sword. On power, yes sw2 is 1s(!!!) evade while rooting you in place. Torch 4 and Jaunt is not active defense. Like I said, any thief, power rev or any build that can lock you down will eat you alive with you are not doing any sustain in less than half a minute. > @"Koen.1327" said: > right now mes has more than 26 secs of active defense in the first minute > not that sustain is actually better, healing is pretty crappy - but crunching useless numbers mes rules Please detail this. And do it with an actual useable build, not something where you pick all defensive traits to sacrifice any damage or utility. Also based on your logic above (jaunt and stealth considered defense) most classes would have at least 30 seconds of defense lol In my case I am more focusing on the power mirage builds, the situation there is even worse than condi mirage in terms of defensive options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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