Biggest flaws in the Revenant profession, how you would fix them

[Aninika.6819]

> @Hooglese.4860 said:

> **Example Redesign of Sword**

> * Reduce auto-attack chain damage by 25-33%

 

I can't even begin to agree with this. While I understand where you're coming from, the last thing Power Rev needs is another dmg Nerf to sword. The other skills need to be enhanced accordingly (which I see is what you did) to bring power rev even remotely close to the power output of the other classes (currently Rev is one of the lowest power builds in pve). AA is fine where it's at and no one really complains that Rev is doing too much dmg (maybe in competitive but definitely not in pve). If power rev was a better boon bot than it currently is or offered something to even bring it to the same level as PS, then we can talk about nerfs to AA. Plus, with Precision Strike almost never hitting a single target (unless you have them isolated), you would almost never get the insta cooldown that you propose (plus that would be 100% broken in the situations it does work in).

 

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Add 1 new themed utility skill per legend. (adds versatility per legend)

 

Add 5 'invocation' utility skills. Like elementalist glyphs, they have varying effects based on legend. Once assigned to your bar, they persist in that slot on legend swap.

 

As another poster already said, (brilliantly): start at 100 energy, remove energy gain on swap, auto attacks gain energy.

 

Make all legends work underwater (damn it!)

 

 

 

These changes would amount to a pretty huge overhaul. But.... Would make the whole damn class feel finished, polished, and totally non-clunky.

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

F5:

"Dedication:" 10 second cd, 0 energy, 0 cast/aftercast

* Gain 50 energy, increase the cooldown on legend swap by 10

[Mako.4137]

Is renegade even worthwhile compared to Herald?

[The Spiral King.2483]

> @Mako.4137 said:

> Is renegade even worthwhile compared to Herald?

 

It's a straight numbers increase to Condi Rev. That's about it. The SB is garbage, and the legend will be garbage until spirits become immune to CC and some of them get a buff/rework. But yeah, a straight 20% increase to condi damage is good if you like condi spamming for some unknowable reason.

[otto.5684]

> @Mako.4137 said:

> Is renegade even worthwhile compared to Herald?

 

20% condi damage, 300 ferocity and 50 bleeds in a group. If you are playing condi build it is stronger than herald as long as sustainability and mobility are not a factor (hence, you are not playing PvP). SB is garbage regardless of the content.

[Laelthis.2314]

1. **energy management**:

Let weapon skills (besides autoattacking) generate and utility skills use energy.

Add strong legend-specific effects once you hit 0 or 100 energy respectively with relatively high internal cooldowns (like 20-40 sec). Maybe give us the option to alter those effects with traits.

 

Reasoning:

Those changes would aim to have a more active interaction with energy and to actually be able to stay in one legend for a prolonged time without being artificialy forced to swap legends.

Those added skills could be something like:

 

2. **Customization**:

I actually quite like the proposal of decoupling utility skills from specific legends. But it's important that the benefit of using it in it's original legend stays high so that it actually makes a difference if in which legend you use it.

 

Reasoning:

That change would benefit build customization immensely but would bear the risk of losing legend identity. That's why it's important to keep a real benefit for using utility skills in their original legend.

[Gilgamesh VII.8690]

Number 1 problem for me is the energy and cooldowns on skills which makes energy cost usless and mire restrictive . Either have no cooldowns with energy cost or the other way not both or like others have suggested, cooldowns on weapon skills and energy cost on utility skills like opposite of Thife having energy cost on weapons and cooldowns on utility skills.

 

Secound is herald elite spec not usable underwater, solution is pretty much the upkeep are just aoe so we're the problem with them working underwater same with activated skill like the dragon breath one (sorry forgot the name of it) can just activated on top of the target.

[Oglaf.1074]

1) Energy system just feels... wrong and clunky.

 

2) No utility skills whatsever also feels extremely wrong.

 

It is as if the Revenant belongs in a game that came out like 2-3 years before GW2. It just feels very _primitive_.

[Mako.4137]

I might eventually make a poll thread on this, but do you think that Anet will ever seriously address the Rev class? Because the way I see it, PoF was a perfect chance to do so.

[Greymarch.3291]

My opinion not so much a lot of others, don't know. But is to either rework hammer or make it useful outside of being a slow weapon. It makes me just want another power ranged weapon cause it feels so heavily clunky.

[draxynnic.3719]

Major flaws:

 

1) Lack of customisation/adaptability. Other professions can respond to an increased chance of being hit by a certain kind of attack (conditions, CC, projectiles, etc) by slotting in skills that are effective against those attacks (resistance/clears, stability/stunbreaks, projectile hate, and so on) without otherwise changing their builds. Revenants, by and large, can't do this: there are a few traits, but adjusting to a greater presence of a particular threat generally means switching legend, which generally results in changing around the build entirely to something that is probably no longer doing what you wanted to do in the first place. The meditrapper dragonhunter, for instance, could take Procession of Blades instead of Smite Conditions if they just want more damage, or Contemplation of Purity if they expect to need to clear condi spikes, and can even trade Renewed Focus for Dragon's Maw for more damage and CC, and still essentially be a meditrapper with all these tweaks. Revenant simply doesn't have the ability to make these sorts of tweaks, and it shows: unless the legend skills are exactly what they need for the meta, they suffer.

 

There are a number of ways this could be solved. Giving the ability to swap some utility skills around would be one. Another could be reworking their traits so that you can actually use the trait system to make these tweaks.

 

2) Needs a ranged condi weapon - core.

 

As I've said elsewhere, the original draft of the revenant was essentially a no-weaponswap profession - but they failed to give revenant the tools that engineers and elementalists have to offset that. The two Es get away with it because they can use utility slots to bring additional sets of weapon skills, and their primary core weapons are versatile enough that playing just with those works. Revenants had neither offsetting factor: they have no additional weapons they can take as utility slots, and their weapons show a similar degree of specialisation as weaponswapping professions.

 

Making revenant work as a no-weaponswap profession would have required a complete rework of the weapons, I think: certainly of hammer and staff, mace and sword might have gotten away with it. So giving it a weaponswap was probably the better choice in the timeframe given...

 

However, as a weaponswapping profession, the revenant's choices are... lacking. Having the hammer as its only ranged option leaves the revenant overly sensitive to the balance state of that weapon, and the slow attack rate of hammer means that for condi builds, it isn't even particularly useful for triggering Rampant Vex. Having mace/axe being the only weaponset that inflicts damaging conditions also means there's no real good option for condi revs to take as their alternate set: sword apparently being popular for defensive purposes, chills to trigger Abyssal Chill, and a high attack rate to trigger Rampant Vex. Shortbow is a clear attempt to cover this, but being fixed to renegade, it does nothing to address the problem for heralds, core revenants, and any future elite specialisation that doesn't have a condi weapon.

 

Moderate issues:

 

3) Underwater combat. I probably don't need to go into detail here. The main reason I put it at 'moderate' is because ArenaNet seems to be increasingly regarding it as a mistake to be papered over, so the only times it really matters are jellyfish fractal and alpine borderlands.

[otto.5684]

> @Mako.4137 said:

> I might eventually make a poll thread on this, but do you think that Anet will ever seriously address the Rev class? Because the way I see it, PoF was a perfect chance to do so.

 

I honestly think that Rev in PoF was done as an after thought. Renegade has no connection to Elona. It clearly lack the depth most other PoF disciplines have, wither it is lore, detail or functionality. This what happens when the legend selection is designed based on “racial and gender” diversity, instead of lore and functionality.

 

Though I am hopeful things will get better, cuz they cannot really get worse from here. As a guardian main, I can say that classes can and do get major makeovers. Guardian was rebuilt big time like 6-8 month after HoT release. Currently Rev is the most unstable class. It is likely to get the most attention.

 

Though do not hold out high hopes for this coming balance patch. The patch after will probably have major changes for Rev.

[Rym.1469]

Most Revenant problems could be fixed by a good trait system.

E.g. traits that incentivize using and chaining different abilities instead of just autoattacking, increasing damage and/or refunding Energy costs when successful.

 

Couple months ago I suggested a trait that would add an additional major damage burst on next attack after using three unique energy-consuming abilities within 4 seconds. This sort of traits.

 

[Mako.4137]

Better traits are a thing I think should be added, but I think aside from that theres a lot of missing substance to the Revenant profession compared to the others too.

 

[Biff.5312]

My only complaint is that I sometimes find myself stuck 'behind' the scenery, inside a mountain or whatever, when a mistwalking ability is used. Can't the 'walls' be made 'solid', so you can't pass through them and simply remain in the playable area?

[Mako.4137]

I feel very middle of the road about the new changes, some of them seem like good ideas but I dont think the changes were substantial enough.

[Undertow.2389]

> @"Ardent Heretic.8216" said:

> I think the number one flaw of the Revenant is that energy is tied to legend swapping.

>

> Revenant seems meant to be able to swap roles to a greater or lesser degree by swapping legends. This design is interesting and makes for great gameplay. However, in the current iteration it is basically required to swap legends every ten seconds exactly to avoid losing out on a significant amount of power/healing/effectiveness. Even if I need the defensiveness of Jalis to get me through the current engagement, once that ten-second clock runs out, I need to swap away to get my energy back to do anything at all. This is clunky, causes predictability, and takes away a great deal of choice in the moment-to-moment gameplay.

>

> My suggestion would be to remove the energy reset from legend swap and add some other functions (through traits) to return my energy. An example return mechanic might be "gain 5 energy each time strike a foe affected by Torment (icd 3 seconds)" or "Gain 2 energy per second while affected by Alacrity." After doing this, I would reduce the cooldown on legend swap to the 3-5 second range to allow me to react to the situation as I need to in the moment. This would allow much more interactive play and diverse builds.

 

Yes, this is the main reason I dislike revenant. The energy refund on swap makes you feel like you're losing out significantly (if timed perfectly it is 50 energy every 10 seconds, or doubling your regen) if you aren't chain swapping every 10 seconds, even if you don't need the utility abilities of your other legend.

 

I **like** that each legend feels like it's own class. Just stop forcing me to rotate back and forth constantly or be completely energy starved.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Right now I would increase sword auto attack damage by 15% and give the block back to sword 4.

[The Spiral King.2483]

I saw one suggestion of having a core F skill that put your legend swap on cooldown for 10 seconds but gave 50 energy. This seems like such an obvious solution I'm not sure why we haven't seen it beyond the clear point of Anet's balance team being awful.> @Undertow.2389 said:

> > @"Ardent Heretic.8216" said:

> > I think the number one flaw of the Revenant is that energy is tied to legend swapping.

> >

> > Revenant seems meant to be able to swap roles to a greater or lesser degree by swapping legends. This design is interesting and makes for great gameplay. However, in the current iteration it is basically required to swap legends every ten seconds exactly to avoid losing out on a significant amount of power/healing/effectiveness. Even if I need the defensiveness of Jalis to get me through the current engagement, once that ten-second clock runs out, I need to swap away to get my energy back to do anything at all. This is clunky, causes predictability, and takes away a great deal of choice in the moment-to-moment gameplay.

> >

> > My suggestion would be to remove the energy reset from legend swap and add some other functions (through traits) to return my energy. An example return mechanic might be "gain 5 energy each time strike a foe affected by Torment (icd 3 seconds)" or "Gain 2 energy per second while affected by Alacrity." After doing this, I would reduce the cooldown on legend swap to the 3-5 second range to allow me to react to the situation as I need to in the moment. This would allow much more interactive play and diverse builds.

>

> Yes, this is the main reason I dislike revenant. The energy refund on swap makes you feel like you're losing out significantly (if timed perfectly it is 50 energy every 10 seconds, or doubling your regen) if you aren't chain swapping every 10 seconds, even if you don't need the utility abilities of your other legend.

>

> I **like** that each legend feels like it's own class. Just stop forcing me to rotate back and forth constantly or be completely energy starved.

 

I like the idea that was mentioned earlier in the thread about a dedicated core F skill that would put legend swap on cooldown but give us 50 energy. It seems an easy way to let people stay in the legend they want to, while alleviating energy issues and still keeping it balanced. The fact that the legends are so rigid in their functions makes swapping between them jarring and yet Anet seems to want us to do nothing but recklessly swap the microsecond F1 comes off cooldown based on their recent trait changes.

[Redfeather.6401]

I love the idea of giving revenant TWO ways to legend swap.

 

One way being exactly as it is now.

Other way has no cooldown (or maybe 2 seconds) but you don't get reset to 50 energy. Instead you keep what little energy you have.

 

It is such a simple way to improve the legend stance mechanic and it keeps the mechanic from being abused like the people swapping legends to stack glint buffs. I mean that glint buff trick is the whole reason legends swapping locks us out. Glint ruined the fun for all the other legends! I hate glint for that.

[asket.7926]

As for the last two ideas:

 

1) > @"The Spiral King.2483" said:

> I saw one suggestion of having a core F skill that put your legend swap on cooldown for 10 seconds but gave 50 energy. This seems like such an obvious solution I'm not sure why we haven't seen it beyond the clear point of Anet's balance team being awful.> @Undertow.2389 said:

 

Problem here is that especially utility skills like e.g. in the assassin stance without any noteworthy cd are then practically on a permanent 10 seconds cd, or if you focus only on one particular utility skill you can even spam it. The legend swap not only offers you an additional set of utility skills, it also assures that you cannot just spam your preferred utilities all the time. With skills like Impossible Odds or the Glint Facet's you could even keep them up permanently on 10 energy cost...

 

So a second option to opt out from legend swap and simply take the 50 energy is a way too powerful, unless you only get 30/40/x energy, or to introduce higher cd's for skills which is against rev's very mechanics of energy upkeep INSTEAD of cds.

 

2)> @Redfeather.6401 said:

> I love the idea of giving revenant TWO ways to legend swap.

>

> One way being exactly as it is now.

> Other way has no cooldown (or maybe 2 seconds) but you don't get reset to 50 energy. Instead you keep what little energy you have.

>

> It is such a simple way to improve the legend stance mechanic and it keeps the mechanic from being abused like the people swapping legends to stack glint buffs. I mean that glint buff trick is the whole reason legends swapping locks us out. Glint ruined the fun for all the other legends! I hate glint for that.

 

This would produce first of all similar problems like 1), simply because ppl then automatically use legend swap for 50 energy and then directly swap back to their preferred stance, so basically 50 energy for free... Worse of an abuse of legend swapping than now...

Second, even if this problem might be somehow avoided, the option to swap freely between legends without (noteworthy) cd means that revs have permanently 10 skills (including 2 heals and 2 elites) at free disposal... Also too powerful....

 

 

The very stiff legend rotation as it is necessary now to keep up the required energy is indeed a bit boring and I guess also against Anet's idea of the rev's mechanics. But tbh, I think the option they followed with Charged Mists in the Invocations trait line is the best - though not unproblematic - solution thus far and goes into the right direction, although it might need some fine tuning (but difficult to tell 4 days after patch). It gives you more energy and thus some leverage that you not always have to swap legend immediately on cd.

 

Another option would be to leave out the weapon skills from energy costs and then adapt and balance the entire energy upkeep for utility skills. That would make rev of course more powerful so that upkeep costs of skills and weapon cds need to be adjusted, but more importantly it would make rev just a bit simpler and easier to play. You would not need to always consider your entire set of skills in your energy management and moreover you wouldn't always need to swap legends just because you want to use that sword 3 or staff 5 or whatever skill, something not too bad in my opinion.

 

Also to be considered might be the mechanic to gain energy on weapon swap, however that's something hard to say without testing it. Would make rev mechanics more complicated and difficult to manage.

 

Lastly, there is always the option to tweak energy gain rates, although this then might quickly run into the same problem that too much energy results in free utility skill spamming without any trade-offs.

[Akiouno.7981]

How about giving us 3 extra skills similar to the the Citadel Order and Fervor based on other legend.

We would get a one small window on left of our 2 stances that allow us to slot them in and can only be changed outside of combat.

This skills would use Fervor as an extra fuel to get stronger and cheaper.

Fervor would replenish after a certain action is fulfilled, similar to Kalla, on a 1 to 2 second timer.

 

[otto.5684]

After last patch I really do not think it matters. Anet does not seem to monitor or read feedback. Just meddle around doing some random kitten. And now it will be three month till we see any new changes. This thread will be buried 3 pages under.

 

I do not see any point in providing feedback or suggestions.

 

[Ellisande.5218]

The class needed to be a mix of offense and defense on each weapon with the legends being focused on mix, offense, defense, heal, CC. Instead we get a class that the devs don't really seem to have a clue what to do with.

 

Making Rev a black magic knight class would have been a good start.