Necromancer discrepancy between game modes.

[disForm.2837]

My question is very simple, how necromancer profession can perform so differently in PvP, WvW and high end PvE? (No need to explain i'm a new player).

 

I've been reading these forums for a while and i've seen multiple posts about how weak power necro is in Raids/Fractals. When i go to snowcrows site, necro is effectively rock bottom on dps benchmark. But then i watched Mota (very enjoyable indeed) and hum, basically every team had a necro and also that player had to be helped to kite and many times where targeted. I heard those guys saying "And player X switched to power reaper for extra damage..." or "look at the damage from the reaper....!" and i was what? I assume those teams are some of the best in the world so necro obviously has a role in PvP, and strong one i would say given how much help those necro players need and how easily (relatively speaking) they are killed when isolated.

 

Then everybody seems to agree that Scourge is meta in WvW (even a couple of posts about nerfing this or that ability).

 

What gives? Why necromancer perform so differently depending on game modes?

[Anchoku.8142]

Necromancer is strong in debuffing.

 

PvE bosses all have Defiance, which resists debuffing and nerfs Necro more than other professions due to Necromancer's greater reliance on debuffing and relative lack of shared buffs for allies.

[Dadnir.5038]

Like Anchoku said the necromancer is strong at debuffing but most debuff are severly affected by defiance and by the fact that the boss are big lump of health that don't need to dodge (no endurance so no vigor), don't heal (no poison/regen) and barely care to block or use stability.

 

The environment also make poor use of conditions and boons which isn't to the advantage of the necromancer.

 

The icing on the cake is that the necromancer's dps potential is pretty low compared to other professions due to a lot of reasons that I won't list. His ability to tank is also impeded by it's inability to nullify hard CC. And lastly it's not really a competitive support (pretty useful for beginner groups but globally superfluous for experienced groups).

[disForm.2837]

Thanks for the answers. Seems a bit shortsighted design a whole game mode that exclude a single profession that hard. So necro PvE would be better situated with a tad bit of extra raw power or just better end game bosses (better balanced, not bags of health).

 

Then i wonder, if they increase necro raw power, wouldn't that break (too powerful) Scourge in WvW or Reaper in PvP?

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"disForm.2837" said:

> Thanks for the answers. Seems a bit shortsighted design a whole game mode that exclude a single profession that hard. So necro PvE would be better situated with a tad bit of extra raw power or just better end game bosses (better balanced, not bags of health).

>

 

Well, there is nothing to do, PvE is just ill-suited for necromancer's mechanisms. That said, the necromancer was in a way worse state in PvE at the release of the game (no cleave, low damage, condition's stacks were limited, low mobility, poor combo field and unpracticable combo, very low life force pool... etc.). Now most of the disadvantage of the necromancer have been removed through a few buffs and change to the game.

 

> Then i wonder, if they increase necro raw power, wouldn't that break (too powerful) Scourge in WvW or Reaper in PvP?

>

 

They've done it, at HoT release the necromancer had 24k dps potential, it now stand at 30k dps potential (which is a huge leap). That said, history proved that when the necromancer reach competitive dps in PvE, players favoring other profession tend to complain that the necromancer have an unfair advantage in resilience while dealing damage.

 

As for PvP/WvW, ANet recently ended up spliting balance with PvE. The issue is that this split is merely a "number" split and the problem of the necromancer in PvE is more tied to mechanisms that numbers.

[disForm.2837]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

 

> > Then i wonder, if they increase necro raw power, wouldn't that break (too powerful) Scourge in WvW or Reaper in PvP?

> >

>

> They've done it, at HoT release the necromancer had 24k dps potential, it now stand at 30k dps potential (which is a huge leap). That said, history proved that when the necromancer reach competitive dps in PvE, players favoring other profession tend to complain that the necromancer have an unfair advantage in resilience while dealing damage.

 

Damn, 24k dps potential, which is reserved for only the best players, casuals hit like a wet noodle i can imagine, hard times indeed. In my experience from other games, PvP brings the worst in people, moaning, complaints, accusations and blame are everyday thing. For many people it's very hard to realise they suck at something they enjoy. I won't touch PvP ever, even if i enjoy competitive settings.

 

About resilience, they may be unto something, i'm usually one of the last players standing on stuff like Jormag or other bosses with massive wipe out chances. Even players with +150 mastery levels over me, therefore much more experienced, die on those encounters (ik, experience \= ability but still).

 

>

> As for PvP/WvW, ANet recently ended up spliting balance with PvE. The issue is that this split is merely a "number" split and the problem of the necromancer in PvE is more tied to mechanisms that numbers.

 

Well, it's what it is. Lets see when i get there. Hopefully someday i'll be able to finish CMs.

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

Indomitable / Defiance did not exist in August / September 2012 after the game's release so Necro was not quite as bad at release as it was a few months later. Arenanet had to add it because players were using control effects on bosses and it was just too easy. Necro was hard-nerfed by Indomitable's immunity to fear, cripple, chill, immobilize, blind, weakness, stun and had really, really bad dps back then because it had terrible power dps, very little cleave dps except for Epidemic and damaging conditions had low caps on stacks (25 bleeds, 25 burns, and 25 poisons?), which is fine solo but in groups against a boss are quickly capped for a solid dps loss.

 

Edit:

> @"disForm.2837" said:

> Thanks for the answers. Seems a bit shortsighted design a whole game mode that exclude a single profession that hard. So necro PvE would be better situated with a tad bit of extra raw power or just better end game bosses (better balanced, not bags of health).

>

> Then i wonder, if they increase necro raw power, wouldn't that break (too powerful) Scourge in WvW or Reaper in PvP?

>

Unfortunately, no, Necromancer is quite capable versus trash mobs in PvE that do not have Defiance. Strengthening it without taking that into account would make it over-powered and mandatory in open-world exploration and events.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Indomitable / Defiance did not exist in August / September 2012 after the game's release so Necro was not quite as bad at release as it was a few months later. Arenanet had to add it because players were using control effects on bosses and it was just too easy. Necro was hard-nerfed by Indomitable's immunity to fear, cripple, chill, immobilize, blind, weakness, stun and had really, really bad dps back then because it had terrible power dps, very little cleave dps except for Epidemic and damaging conditions had low caps on stacks (25 bleeds, 25 burns, and 25 poisons?), which is fine solo but in groups against a boss are quickly capped for a solid dps loss.

 

25 bleed, 25 confusion,1 burn and 1 poison. Torment came later caped at 25.

 

Edit: maybe 25 poison, I'm not to sure. I feel like it was a single stack, thought.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > Indomitable / Defiance did not exist in August / September 2012 after the game's release so Necro was not quite as bad at release as it was a few months later. Arenanet had to add it because players were using control effects on bosses and it was just too easy. Necro was hard-nerfed by Indomitable's immunity to fear, cripple, chill, immobilize, blind, weakness, stun and had really, really bad dps back then because it had terrible power dps, very little cleave dps except for Epidemic and damaging conditions had low caps on stacks (25 bleeds, 25 burns, and 25 poisons?), which is fine solo but in groups against a boss are quickly capped for a solid dps loss.

>

> 25 bleed, 25 confusion,1 burn and 1 poison. Torment came later caped at 25.

>

> Edit: maybe 25 poison, I'm not to sure. I feel like it was a single stack, thought.

 

Ah, I think you are right. I seem to remember some conditions changed from stacking duration to stacking intensity.

[Josiah.2967]

2/3 the potential DPS is not balanced. Not when shroud comes with significant drawbacks "like" preventing you from being healed. To get to the 2/3 maximum you can take 0 damage. This is a joke.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Josiah.2967" said:

> 2/3 the potential DPS is not balanced. Not when shroud comes with significant drawbacks "like" preventing you from being healed. To get to the 2/3 maximum you can take 0 damage. This is a joke.

 

Not really, you can probably get to 2/3rd without using shroud (and I'd say, for the potential, it's more 3/4th than 2/3rd, 30k out of 40k).

[Taril.8619]

Necro suffers from a plethora of design issues when it comes to PvE, that also happen to make them good in PvP/WvW.

 

- **Necromancer is capable of corrupting boons.** This is very valuable in PvP where players run strong boons and removing them is nice. This is also useless in PvE where enemies don't use boons very much if at all.

- **Necromancer's core class mechanic enhances survivability and damage.** This is very nice in PvP as it allows you to get some extra survivability. This happens to make PvE balancing difficult because it can easily be unbalanced if Necro can have equal damage to everyone else, while being much harder to take down due to shroud's defences (Though this is a double edged sword, because Shroud prevents being healed which can also cause issues in PvE)

- **Necromancer generates a lot of Life Force from nearby deaths.** This can be great in WvW, allowing them to spam Shroud as much as they want. In PvE it becomes useless against bosses which is where the focus of high end PvE is because bosses don't have a bunch of things dying constantly (Conversely, it becomes good in open world and Fractals where there's more trash enemies to kill)

- **Necromancer's support mostly comes from debuffs.** This is great in PvP where conditions like Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Poison and Blinded can be quite effective at reducing the effectiveness of enemies. It is however useless in PvE where the notable enemies are bosses whom have Defiance which causes them to resist or be immune to the effects of these conditions.

 

Unfortunately, it's quite difficult to fix these issues without making significant changes to how the class functions at base. Which would require a lot of work and then need to go through a lot of balancing. It'd be tantamount to creating a brand new class with the scope of changes required.

[Josiah.2967]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Josiah.2967" said:

> > 2/3 the potential DPS is not balanced. Not when shroud comes with significant drawbacks "like" preventing you from being healed. To get to the 2/3 maximum you can take 0 damage. This is a joke.

>

> Not really, you can probably get to 2/3rd without using shroud (and I'd say, for the potential, it's more 3/4th than 2/3rd, 30k out of 40k).

 

It is actually 2/3. It has gotten worse over time. The benches are depressing per encounter are depressing.

[Infusion.7149]

Give more boons to PvE mobs, reduce power creep on meta classes that have group buffs (guardian,warrior,ranger, etc ... alacrity renegade and boon chrono have far lower damage potential) , reduce arena tick damage effects from life force, and the necro would be in a better state. For example, Power DH was bug fixed and zealous blade lost the 10% hidden damage modifier as a result so it isn't nearly as strong as it was prior to the fix. Last year warrior banners were cut from 170 group bonuses to 100. Numerically the ranger frost spirit (5%) /spotter (100 precision) / sun spirit (burn on hit) and to a lesser extent warrior banners (100 power/condi/ferocity/precision , which is about ~7% via ferocity and ~4% via power increase to 10 people) aren't as pivotal as condi QB pumping out a flat 50% damage boost via quickness even to autoattackers while spitting out aegis constantly.

 

I don't understand why the focus on shroud uptime as far as PvE goes, there is very little reason to run reaper if there's no good way to regenerate life force (such as Fractals with lots of trash mobs).

 

Of course it's easier to complain and ask for buffs, nobody wants nerfs to their class.

 

Most of the time I'm on scourge if on necro because #1 you can't be healed in shroud , #2 scourge has much more carry potential , #3 scourge is far superior in WvW when there isn't enough condi to boon conversion on the enemy team to thwart your boon corrupts , #4 core necro is strong in PVP even after nerfs but doesn't deal as well with firebrands.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Give more boons to PvE mobs,

 

Objectively this isn't going to do any good for a necromancer in fights where 10 players hit on a single big lump of HP. Boons aren't a necessity for them, most conditions that would result from the boon corruption barely affect them due to defiance and, last but not least, the competition between 10 players to remove those boons wouldn't make such a change a significant buff to the profession (in fact the impact would be insignificant at best).

 

> reduce power creep on meta classes that have group buffs (guardian,warrior,ranger, etc ... alacrity renegade and boon chrono have far lower damage potential),

 

I'm not sure you use the word "powercreep" properly. You probably mean that there is a need to add some trade-off (in damage output at least) for the amount of support some professions grant (And I totally agree with you if it's the case). That said it might be difficult due to how the game/character building work.

 

> reduce arena tick damage effects from life force, and the necro would be in a better state.

 

Make those arena tick apply a single standard damaging condition that slowly ramp up instead of power damage, that in itself might add some complexity to the fight (use condi management tools) and help the necromancer (that is, if the meta answer is not to overcleanse allies).

 

> I don't understand why the focus on shroud uptime as far as PvE goes,

 

I do agree that ANet focused to much on shroud to try and give the necromancer a dps potential that close on the other profession's. It probably all stem from the facts that at HoT release the necromancer was far behind in power damage and the GS wasn't exactly a power dps tool as satisfying to use than RS in PvE. Thus in order to enforce the "spectral" theme of reaper and cater to players wishes they packed everything onto the shroud finally propelling it to a barely close to competitive dps potential.

 

I believe that with a focus on the out of shroud dps instead of the in shroud dps the necromancer could have been a competitive dps long ago.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Give more boons to PvE mobs,

>

> Objectively this isn't going to do any good for a necromancer in fights where 10 players hit on a single big lump of HP. Boons aren't a necessity for them, most conditions that would result from the boon corruption barely affect them due to defiance and, last but not least, the competition between 10 players to remove those boons wouldn't make such a change a significant buff to the profession (in fact the impact would be insignificant at best).

 

Yeah, simply adding boons to PvE wouldn't do much. Since the Sword Mesmer will have already ripped them off before anyone can do anything.

 

It's one of the awkward mechanical things. In a 10 player environment where people are already incentivised to run Sword Mesmer (Chrono) boons will be a non-factor in many circumstances. At best you could see things such as the bosses that prefer Condi builds (So you'd see Firebrigade instead of Chrono) generating Regeneration and Might so they can be converted into Bleeding and Torment respectively.

 

But that's such a niche application that it wouldn't do much for Necro as a whole, not to mention you'd probably still just end up with Heal Scourge doing the conversion since well, as mentioned they are Condi preference bosses so Reaper is no good (Not to mention that Reaper's focus on Shroud uptime means limited uptime of conversion skills) to say nothing about how conversion is inherently a Condi mechanic.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I do agree that ANet focused to much on shroud to try and give the necromancer a dps potential that close on the other profession's. It probably all stem from the facts that at HoT release the necromancer was far behind in power damage and the GS wasn't exactly a power dps tool as satisfying to use than RS in PvE. Thus in order to enforce the "spectral" theme of reaper and cater to players wishes they packed everything onto the shroud finally propelling it to a barely close to competitive dps potential.

>

> I believe that with a focus on the out of shroud dps instead of the in shroud dps the necromancer could have been a competitive dps long ago.

 

I think one of the issues they face with something like this is that while, yes, in theory it would be much easier to balance Necro if their damage was weighted towards non-Shroud skills, since then there wouldn't be awkward interactions with survivability and damage being linked.

 

The other side of it is then you end up in a situation similar to old Mesmer back when Phantoms were permenant. Whereby there's the problem of being actively dissuaded from ever using your class mechanic. Which was considered a large enough problem that they did end up reworking Phantoms completely, so that Mesmers would actually be able to use their mechanic while doing their DPS.

 

As such, I currently think the most straightforward way to put Necro into a place where they can become competitive DPS, is by splitting Shroud into 2 separate F skills. Where F1 is purely defensive, simply providing the HP buffer of Life Force, while F2 is purely offensive and simply provides the new weapon skills.

 

Of course, this would also require a bunch of tweaks to traits, but it would end up with Necro's still using their class mechanic but while being able to have competitive damage because it won't be tied to the defensive side of Shroud. It can lead to some PvP issues though...

[LucianDK.8615]

Yeah, necros is far too dependent on shroud uptime, and it -hurts- vs bosses because nothing else dies. And you feel seriously gimped because your shroud was knocked off and struggling to get it back.

Suggestion: -Completely- eliminate lifeforce from deaths and move it completely to weapons and utilities.

Then necromancer dagger could be retooled as the fast boss killer weapon with sustain, vs greatsword for hordes.

 

This would also have the bonus making necromancers much less overpowered in zergs due to the massive lifeforce gain.

[Infusion.7149]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Give more boons to PvE mobs,

>

> Objectively this isn't going to do any good for a necromancer in fights where 10 players hit on a single big lump of HP. Boons aren't a necessity for them, most conditions that would result from the boon corruption barely affect them due to defiance and, last but not least, the competition between 10 players to remove those boons wouldn't make such a change a significant buff to the profession (in fact the impact would be insignificant at best).

>

> > reduce power creep on meta classes that have group buffs (guardian,warrior,ranger, etc ... alacrity renegade and boon chrono have far lower damage potential),

>

> I'm not sure you use the word "powercreep" properly. You probably mean that there is a need to add some trade-off (in damage output at least) for the amount of support some professions grant (And I totally agree with you if it's the case). That said it might be difficult due to how the game/character building work.

>

> > reduce arena tick damage effects from life force, and the necro would be in a better state.

>

> Make those arena tick apply a single standard damaging condition that slowly ramp up instead of power damage, that in itself might add some complexity to the fight (use condi management tools) and help the necromancer (that is, if the meta answer is not to overcleanse allies).

>

> > I don't understand why the focus on shroud uptime as far as PvE goes,

>

> I do agree that ANet focused to much on shroud to try and give the necromancer a dps potential that close on the other profession's. It probably all stem from the facts that at HoT release the necromancer was far behind in power damage and the GS wasn't exactly a power dps tool as satisfying to use than RS in PvE. Thus in order to enforce the "spectral" theme of reaper and cater to players wishes they packed everything onto the shroud finally propelling it to a barely close to competitive dps potential.

>

> I believe that with a focus on the out of shroud dps instead of the in shroud dps the necromancer could have been a competitive dps long ago.

 

Powercreep is when there are added benefits for no apparent reason on classes that already have a role. For example, some traits were merged and the boon duration required for quickness was lowered fro firebrand.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > Give more boons to PvE mobs,

> >

> > Objectively this isn't going to do any good for a necromancer in fights where 10 players hit on a single big lump of HP. Boons aren't a necessity for them, most conditions that would result from the boon corruption barely affect them due to defiance and, last but not least, the competition between 10 players to remove those boons wouldn't make such a change a significant buff to the profession (in fact the impact would be insignificant at best).

>

> Yeah, simply adding boons to PvE wouldn't do much. Since the Sword Mesmer will have already ripped them off before anyone can do anything.

>

> It's one of the awkward mechanical things. In a 10 player environment where people are already incentivised to run Sword Mesmer (Chrono) boons will be a non-factor in many circumstances. At best you could see things such as the bosses that prefer Condi builds (So you'd see Firebrigade instead of Chrono) generating Regeneration and Might so they can be converted into Bleeding and Torment respectively.

>

> But that's such a niche application that it wouldn't do much for Necro as a whole, not to mention you'd probably still just end up with Heal Scourge doing the conversion since well, as mentioned they are Condi preference bosses so Reaper is no good (Not to mention that Reaper's focus on Shroud uptime means limited uptime of conversion skills) to say nothing about how conversion is inherently a Condi mechanic.

>

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > I do agree that ANet focused to much on shroud to try and give the necromancer a dps potential that close on the other profession's. It probably all stem from the facts that at HoT release the necromancer was far behind in power damage and the GS wasn't exactly a power dps tool as satisfying to use than RS in PvE. Thus in order to enforce the "spectral" theme of reaper and cater to players wishes they packed everything onto the shroud finally propelling it to a barely close to competitive dps potential.

> >

> > I believe that with a focus on the out of shroud dps instead of the in shroud dps the necromancer could have been a competitive dps long ago.

>

> I think one of the issues they face with something like this is that while, yes, in theory it would be much easier to balance Necro if their damage was weighted towards non-Shroud skills, since then there wouldn't be awkward interactions with survivability and damage being linked.

>

> The other side of it is then you end up in a situation similar to old Mesmer back when Phantoms were permenant. Whereby there's the problem of being actively dissuaded from ever using your class mechanic. Which was considered a large enough problem that they did end up reworking Phantoms completely, so that Mesmers would actually be able to use their mechanic while doing their DPS.

>

> As such, I currently think the most straightforward way to put Necro into a place where they can become competitive DPS, is by splitting Shroud into 2 separate F skills. Where F1 is purely defensive, simply providing the HP buffer of Life Force, while F2 is purely offensive and simply provides the new weapon skills.

>

> Of course, this would also require a bunch of tweaks to traits, but it would end up with Necro's still using their class mechanic but while being able to have competitive damage because it won't be tied to the defensive side of Shroud. It can lead to some PvP issues though...

 

If you're using sword mesmer as a DPS you're already losing damage unless you have slow uptime (such as in 10 Time Warp chrono comps). Also, chrono requires clones to be up to even use shatters ; the power-based clones from sword and greatsword don't actually do much damage.

If you're running power boon chrono for alacrity, the damage is lower than renegade and the well reliance makes it more inconsistent.

 

Speaking of shroud, I don't see why the utility skills couldn't be grayed out when in shroud so at least you know their cooldowns.

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> If you're using sword mesmer as a DPS you're already losing damage unless you have slow uptime (such as in 10 Time Warp chrono comps).

 

Power Chrono is one of the higher DPS classes. Even more so on smaller hitbox bosses. While also useable outside of mass Chrono strats (I.e. Meta setups for Xera and Sabir)

 

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Also, chrono requires clones to be up to even use shatters

 

And this is relevant because?

 

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> the power-based clones from sword and greatsword don't actually do much damage.

 

And this is relevant because?

 

Also, lul Greatsword... Shows why you think Mesmer is a DPS loss, if they're using GS.

 

Sword clones, which will exist because they're necessary to shatter and the entire mechanic of Mesmer is to build up clones, have boon rip on their auto attacks just like the Mesmer themselves. Which is very effective at removing boons since it is passive and considerably frequent (If we're factoring in that a Mesmer existing in the party means that someone is providing perma-Quickness - Either the Firebrand or the Mesmer themselves, to bolster the Mesmer's autos and then 1-3 clones will be auto attacking too)

 

Which means that there's not really going to be much place for Necro to use their boon corrupt skills even if Boons were more notably applied in PvE.

 

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> If you're running power boon chrono for alacrity, the damage is lower than renegade and the well reliance makes it more inconsistent.

 

The thing is, Power Boon Chrono takes the place of both Firebrand and Renegade, because it provides both Quickness and Alacrity. Meaning you can swap the Firebrand and Renegade to higher damage builds such as Power DH or Condi Ren.

 

[Anchoku.8142]

About shroud uptime, this has been discussed before but, from a gameplay perspective, core Necromancer and Reaper should not achieve best dps when using a defense mechanism. It may be how the profession is set up but it feels wrong. Necro players should have either defense with LF or offense but not both.

 

Scourge is an example of making trades for LF use and stat allocation. It is not perfectly balanced but the intention is clear.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> About shroud uptime, this has been discussed before but, from a gameplay perspective, core Necromancer and Reaper should not achieve best dps when using a defense mechanism. It may be how the profession is set up but it feels wrong. Necro players should have either defense with LF or offense but not both.

>

> Scourge is an example of making trades for LF use and stat allocation. It is not perfectly balanced but the intention is clear.

 

Hm, no. That's just stupid points in my opinion.

While I agree that shroud is defensive, it's at the same time necro's only defensive mechanism but it's (for reaper) the biggest offensive ability it has as well. Imagine reaper not having offensive abilities while in shroud. It would be completely useless in any gamemode. There have been countless of tries to make reaper more of a glass cannon by the community to fix the "issue" you see here. But that would be a lot more work to do then. It would basically need a complete necro rework, as you would have to add blocks and evades or invulnerabilities to some necro skills, to not make it completely useless in PvP modes.

 

Also:

 

Keep in mind guardian exists. It should then do no damage while litany of wrath is active. Cause it's defensive. So every damage you deal while it's active doesn't deal damage but gets redirected as healing to yourself.

Or it should not deal damage when it has aegis, yet there's a trait that even increases damage while guard has aegis.

 

Or engi should either not be able to deal damage while aed is active or for a period of time after it got activated.

 

With both these skills you can completely ignore some mechanics that would either deal heavy damage to you (gorse all retaliation phase) or oneshot you (wave of the air dude in w7) while you don't loose any dps.

That's much more op than shroud. If you take a lot of damage in shroud, say byebye to a good junk of your damage.

While other classes can choose to play as "tanky" as necro by using different skills or using different stats like marauder while still having the same dps output, necro can't choose to be even glassier.

 

Sorry but I think I'll bring this up now Everytime someone's bringing up the "necro is more tanky kitten".

I'll then say "just play marauder for more survivability and same damage output that a necro has"

 

I bet, that people will complain and say that that's not meta. Guess what necro isn't meta either.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> While I agree that shroud is defensive, it's at the same time necro's only defensive mechanism but it's (for reaper) the biggest offensive ability it has as well. Imagine reaper not having offensive abilities while in shroud. It would be completely useless in any gamemode. There have been countless of tries to make reaper more of a glass cannon by the community to fix the "issue" you see here. But that would be a lot more work to do then. It would basically need a complete necro rework, as you would have to add blocks and evades or invulnerabilities to some necro skills, to not make it completely useless in PvP modes.

 

You know, shroud damage are artificial. Even dagger main hand and staff would be competitive if they had an extra 600 ferocity and 33% crit chance. (even more if they had might gen and applied vuln on it's auto attack.)

 

There have been no try on ANet's part to make it a glass canon, they just put more damage onto shroud and reduced the damage mitigation while in shroud. Which in itself mean nothing since the shroud fondamentally remain a defensive mechanism (and is the necromancer's main mechanism).

 

The issue is how ressources are allocated into the very core of the necromancer. Anchoku is right, having a defensive mechanism that allow you top DPS objectively feel wrong. And no, reallocating the "ressources" is not more of a work than what they did to death magic (You basically change 2 minor traits in spite from giving might to giving a set amount of power, 1 in soul reaping from giving raw stat in shroud to giving raw stat for 10 seconds after leaving shroud and 1 trait in reaper from giving raw stat and buff in shroud to giving raw stat and buff for 10 seconds after leaving shroud. Just 4 traits change give you a glass canon and would increase significantly the necromancer's DPS in group setting. And believe it or not, none of these changes involve yet to be seen mechanisms nor do they change the theme of the profession).

[Hannelore.8153]

For the record, its important to understand that even in PvE, there's multiple "game modes", For example, Necro is godly in open-world and always will be, where Conditions and other debuffs actually work well (they can completely lock down any trash mobs 24/7..). Its in instanced content where they have to face bosses that the most problem is, Defiance is just a bad mechanic and always was.

 

That's why you sometimes hear people say Necro is strong in PvE, because in open-world, it does trivialise content most players struggle with, like in Heart of Thorns areas, but in dungeons , Fractals and raids its a different story altogether.

 

Also the power of Minion Masters that are well-played mean they can solo any encounter, if you have the patience.

 

This is where the difficulty in balancing comes from..

[Taril.8619]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> The issue is how ressources are allocated into the very core of the necromancer. Anchoku is right, having a defensive mechanism that allow you top DPS objectively feel wrong. And no, reallocating the "ressources" is not more of a work than what they did to death magic (You basically change 2 minor traits in spite from giving might to giving a set amount of power, 1 in soul reaping from giving raw stat in shroud to giving raw stat for 10 seconds after leaving shroud and 1 trait in reaper from giving raw stat and buff in shroud to giving raw stat and buff for 10 seconds after leaving shroud. Just 4 traits change give you a glass canon and would increase significantly the necromancer's DPS in group setting. And believe it or not, none of these changes involve yet to be seen mechanisms nor do they change the theme of the profession).

 

The issue with something like this, is that it devolves the class mechanic into just flicking Shroud on and then insta-leaving. Which is another form of making the class mechanic a non-mechanic.

 

Bypassing the class mechanic is a significant issue when it comes to putting the focus on non-Shroud gameplay and ANet's past changes indicate that they don't like the idea of class mechanics being non-factors for gameplay (I.e. The old Mesmer Phantasms being reworked).

 

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Scourge is an example of making trades for LF use and stat allocation. It is not perfectly balanced but the intention is clear.

 

Though, Scourge is a poor example too. Since, it wants to be spamming its defensive skills (F2, F3 and F4) because it causes damage (F1 will proc damage + Torment - Alongside trait procs such as Dhuumfire... F4 is shroud which is both offensive and defensive because it pulses Torment and gives Barrier...)

 

Which is the same mechanic of gaining offense from defensive skill usage as Core and Reaper Shroud, just in a shiny new skin. Also it is indicative of how poorly designed Scourge actually is.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > The issue is how ressources are allocated into the very core of the necromancer. Anchoku is right, having a defensive mechanism that allow you top DPS objectively feel wrong. And no, reallocating the "ressources" is not more of a work than what they did to death magic (You basically change 2 minor traits in spite from giving might to giving a set amount of power, 1 in soul reaping from giving raw stat in shroud to giving raw stat for 10 seconds after leaving shroud and 1 trait in reaper from giving raw stat and buff in shroud to giving raw stat and buff for 10 seconds after leaving shroud. Just 4 traits change give you a glass canon and would increase significantly the necromancer's DPS in group setting. And believe it or not, none of these changes involve yet to be seen mechanisms nor do they change the theme of the profession).

>

> The issue with something like this, is that it devolves the class mechanic into just flicking Shroud on and then insta-leaving. Which is another form of making the class mechanic a non-mechanic.

>

 

From my point of view it stay a mechanism and isn't less complexe than any other class mechanisms of every single profession in this game.

 

> Bypassing the class mechanic is a significant issue when it comes to putting the focus on non-Shroud gameplay and ANet's past changes indicate that they don't like the idea of class mechanics being non-factors for gameplay (I.e. The old Mesmer Phantasms being reworked).

 

But having to flash shroud mean that you actively use your profession mechanism. I'd even say that it's a corner stone of your rotation. The skillset carried by your class mechanism isn't your class mechanism, it is but a part of it.

 

ANet reworked phantasm because it was inconvenient in use, not because it bypassed the class mechanism. Players were complaining day in and day out that the mesmer's sustained DPS sucked due to a long ramp up, resummoning fantasm between fights and (boss phase) being a chore (and they were right). That said, I won't say that ANet did a good job with this rework, they did not. While they did good to the sustain damage on large HP foes with this rework, they totally screwed balance for fights on Low HP foes by raising the sustained DPS without reducing the burst ability.

 

Edit: Mesmer is the result of a typical half-hearted effort from which you can see the ecchoes in the current scourge, mirage, chrono, berserker, druid... etc.

 

> Which is the same mechanic of gaining offense from defensive skill usage as Core and Reaper Shroud, just in a shiny new skin. Also it is indicative of how poorly designed Scourge actually is.

 

While I do agree with the "poorly designed", truth be told it it designed this way because core necromancer is too focused on buffing the shroud and this leave the "shroudless" scourge in a poor state. If the core necromancer had a competitive out-of-shroud damage level, the devs probably wouldn't have felt the need to overload the shade skills with damage (to the point that they even put a _manifest sand shade_ proc on skills that would have been balanced if it wasn't for this proc).