Developer Clarification Request: Sand Savant - Bug or Intended?

[Hana.8143]

10/10 for the art, true masterpiece.

@"Karl McLain.5604" Also, if you happen to bring this for the scourge, do it for pve, cause ya know... it's ok for raids. But not for WvW :)

and reduce the qfqlksdfhqlkhsdf CRIPPLE Karl, PLEASE !

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> 10/10 for the art, true masterpiece.

> @"Karl McLain.5604" Also, if you happen to bring this for the scourge, do it for pve, cause ya know... it's ok for raids. But not for WvW :)

> and reduce the qfqlksdfhqlkhsdf CRIPPLE Karl, PLEASE !

 

only way to reduce cripple if you compensate with mobility.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Retsuko.2035 said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > We are looking to fix this with Sand Savant, so that the scourge can effectively affect 10 targets simultaneously when using the larger shade. I can't give an ETA because the solutions are still being evaluated, but I can say it's on our radar.

>

> 10 targets? this is a joke right?

 

Banners already have 10 targets, and nobody is asking for those to be nerfed. In fact, more support abilities should have 10 targets across the board, such as...

* Empower Allies

* Grace of the Land

* Spirits

* Shouts

* Spotter

* Phalanx Strength

* Alacrity application

 

In fact, that banners have 10 targets is one of the best things about them. It frees up room in class composition.

 

**All** support abilities in the game should have a 10 target limit in PVE, no exception. This includes Scourge's abilities.

 

 

 

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > @Retsuko.2035 said:

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > We are looking to fix this with Sand Savant, so that the scourge can effectively affect 10 targets simultaneously when using the larger shade. I can't give an ETA because the solutions are still being evaluated, but I can say it's on our radar.

> >

> > 10 targets? this is a joke right?

>

> Banners already have 10 targets, and nobody is asking for those to be nerfed. In fact, more support abilities should have 10 targets across the board, such as...

> * Empower Allies

> * Grace of the Land

> * Spirits

> * Shouts

> * Spotter

> * Phalanx Strength

> * Alacrity application

>

> In fact, that banners have 10 targets is one of the best things about them. It frees up room in class composition.

>

> **All** support abilities in the game should have a 10 target limit in PVE, no exception. This includes Scourge's abilities.

>

>

>

 

... ya know. I never thought about shouts having 10 targeting. That ... actually makes entirely too much sense thematically, but lets look as the roster of Shout skills to look for potential balance concerns:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shout

 

---

 

#Guardian - Moderate Concern with becoming too Strong.

 

---

 

"Receive the Light!" 2 2¼ 30 Heal yourself and allies in a cone in front of you.

 

1,305 (0.2) x 5 pulses to allies. Assuming 1600 Healing Power thats 8,125 Healing before outgoing healing modifiers. Guardians can get a fairly good chunk, lets assume with Monk Runes, Transference, Traits, and Rice Balls, thats realistically looking over 100% quite easily. Basically a full heal for most builds if in range of the heal in a fully dedicated healing build, on a base 30s recharge (reducible 20% if using Pure of Voice, but that competes with outgoing healing bonus as well).

 

The healing cone is very narrow however, so in WvW it would be impressive to get a full 9 players in the cone consistently.

 

 

"Hold the Line!" 30 "Grant protection and regeneration to allies."

 

6s base Protection and Regeneration. Oh wow this ability has NOT aged well, yikes. Honestly this skill is more than fine, and really, might be a good candidate for getting Barrier with it, and increasing it to self + 9 targets.

 

"Retreat!" 30 "Grant aegis and swiftness to up to five nearby allies."

 

20s Swiftness and one Aegis. Actually wow, this also is quite ... underwhelming even if extended to 9 targets and self. I honestly don't know what this ability could do to make it worth bringing. Perhaps it could pulse Aegis once per second for three seconds?

 

"Save Yourselves!" 50 "Draw conditions from nearby allies to yourself. Gain multiple boons for a short duration."

 

Oh wow. OH. WOW. If this was extended to 9 allies + Self, this could actually do wonders to help with the condition spam meta in WvW and would be quite amazing on Sloth actually and any other condition heavy raids in the future. With its long recharge, I'd feel it would be balanced in WvW.

 

"Stand Your Ground!" 30 "Grants stability and retaliation to yourself and allies."

 

At 10 targets, this skill would be quite good in a lot of content, and its already used a lot in WvW. Not many raid encounters where stability spam would be that strong, and we have the elite Mantra for that, but the wider area could make this more reliable, and would be fine on fights in the future that might require more stability.

 

"Feel My Wrath!" 45 "Grant fury and quickness to nearby allies."

 

This would actually be a wonderful addition to the 10 target. Its up-time is actually quite low, even compared with Time Warp, and in the best case is only a 37% up-time across your 10 allies if at 100% quickness duration. That said, its actually quite nice to be able to also bring 74% Fury up-time though! If we compare this to Time Warp, it has 20s of quickness across the entire Squad, and can be cast essentially every 67.5 seconds with Continuum Split and Alacrity, for a potential up-time of 30% rounded.

 

This would make Firebrand the defacto "best" team-wide Quickness maintainer, but on shorter fights where Chronomancers can elect to double cast Time Warp, it would be superior. Kind of a toss up really. Not likely Firebrand + Renegade (Alacrity) would surpass the use of a Chrono is most meta things anyways due to Distortion being so oppressively strong in raids :dizzy:

 

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#Warrior - Even Stronger Mightstacking, but Raidwide.

 

---

 

"To the Limit!" 30 "Heal yourself and regain all adrenaline. Nearby allies gain endurance."

 

9 allies gaining 50 Endurance wouldn't be game breaking.

 

"Fear Me!" 60 "Induce fear in your foes."

 

Fearing 10 foes in WvW with Spellbreaker might be too strong, but the recharge timer on it is very lengthy, so I don't see it being too oppressive.

 

"For Great Justice!" 25 "Grant fury and might to yourself and allies."

 

Fury 8s (16 max) would almost be permanent fury for the raid, and would end up at 100% might duration maintaining 12 Might across the raid permanently. This is quite potent already, and being raid wide would be extremely strong. That said, I'm all for condensing the "CPS" role down to as few people as necessary to avoid the silly mirror comp that is used now. If we want the end goal of needing "only one" supper supportive warrior, i'd be for this one as well. This shout + Double Banners would be the staple of the team's support warrior. Ironically Phalanx Strength might no longer actually be needed even for the build to share sufficient might, if enough might can come from other residual sources.

 

"Shake It Off!" 25 Cure a condition on yourself and nearby allies. Also breaks stuns.

 

This would be, again, a VERY strong addition to the WvW meta to counter condition spam. I'm all for it, and it would be great to slot for some fights like Slothasaur and Mathias.

 

---

 

#Ranger - Not too strong.

 

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"Guard!" 30 Order your pet to guard nearby allies. Your pet takes damage on behalf of those allies; gain might when your pet receives damage.

 

This would not be that big of an issues for WvW due to how quickly the pet would die most likely, unless its a bear with invulnerability. In a Raid, this could actually be REALLY interesting as a raid-wide "distortion" type effect to absorb a lot of damage through the pet for one big spike. Probably wouldn't be too strong really at 30 seconds recharge and likely killing the pet or requiring a super defensive pet to make much use of it.

 

"Protect Me!" 30 Gain protection and break allies out of stuns. Your pet taunts the next foe that attacks you.

 

Again, not too oppressive for WvW and already is used on Sloth currently with a druid in each subgroup, so would cut down the reliance on double-druids.

 

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#Tempest - Would become the "Squad-wide Healer" and would aura-boon a ton.

 

---

 

"Wash the Pain Away!" 20 Mists billow out of the player, healing allies that are in range.

 

Unlike "Receive The Light" this heal has a wider radius and is easier to land, with total values at 1600 healing power of :

 

* First Heal: 2,344 (0.75) = 3,544

* Second Heal: 1,310 (0.5) = 2110

* Third Heal: 660 (0.25) = 1060

* Total = 6,715 This means this will heal less per use than Receive the Light, but is in a wider area and has a 10 second shorter recharge. Coupled with a 10 target "Soothing Mist" passive limit increase, this would make Tempest the premier "Raid Wide Healer."

 

 

"Feel the Burn!" 25 Heat waves blast out from the player, causing damage and granting fire aura to allies.

 

10 target Fire Aura also translates into quite a lot of Protection, Regeneration, and Vigor, and potentially condition cleansing to the entire Squad. Might be balanced, but as with all the shouts, increasing this to 10 targets is interacting a lot with traits.

 

"Eye of the Storm!" 40 Imbue your voice with the element of air, massively increasing speed and breaking stun for nearby allies.

 

"Aftershock!" 45 Call upon the earth to cripple and immobilize foes in the area around you. Allies in the initial blast gain magnetic aura.

 

10 target Magnetic Aura also translates into quite a lot of Protection, Regeneration, and Vigor, and potentially condition cleansing to the entire Squad. Might be balanced, but as with all the shouts, increasing this to 10 targets is interacting a lot with traits. This amount of anti-projectile could be a potential problem for WvW, but the recharge is so long that I doubt it. The 10 target Immobilize could be problematic potentially, but at the significant recharge timer of 45 seconds I highly doubt it.

 

"Flash-Freeze!" 30 Unleash a torrent of ice on enemy locations, chilling those who cannot escape. Grant frost aura to allies in range.

 

See above. The recharge to up-time ratio makes this not too big of a concern for both allies and foes. Is more of the interaction with all the boons-on-auras that might make this strong when combined with the other 4 aura shouts.

 

"Rebound!" 75 Shout and infuse your allies with arcane energy. Allies who would take lethal damage while this is active ignore the deathblow and are healed instead. If the effect expires naturally, grant an aura based on your current attunement.

 

This actually would be fantastic at 10 targets and could help ease people out of the over-reliance on Distortion.

[Hana.8143]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > @Hana.8143 said:

> > 10/10 for the art, true masterpiece.

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" Also, if you happen to bring this for the scourge, do it for pve, cause ya know... it's ok for raids. But not for WvW :)

> > and reduce the qfqlksdfhqlkhsdf CRIPPLE Karl, PLEASE !

>

> only way to reduce cripple if you compensate with mobility.

 

*cough...* tp *cough...* stability, swiftness *cough...* breakstun *cough cough...*

Man, i'm sick...

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > @Hana.8143 said:

> > > 10/10 for the art, true masterpiece.

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" Also, if you happen to bring this for the scourge, do it for pve, cause ya know... it's ok for raids. But not for WvW :)

> > > and reduce the qfqlksdfhqlkhsdf CRIPPLE Karl, PLEASE !

> >

> > only way to reduce cripple if you compensate with mobility.

>

> *cough...* tp *cough...* stability, swiftness *cough...* breakstun *cough cough...*

> Man, i'm sick...

 

I wouldn't say sick but I would recommend going to an optician because you are dangerously shortsighted.

[Brighteluden.2974]

I have a feeling the devs are going to change their mind due to WvW and scourges stacking zzzzz Or if they do make that change and they're not going to improve any of our damage/support skills in any meaningful way thus we're going to continue to suck in PvE...Ahh, gotta love being a necro huh.

[Baltzenger.2467]

Support abilities across the board affecting 10 targets could be the best thing happening to the game since the expansion.

Condition spam on wvw could be countered by organized condition removal.

Boon stacking could be countered by the newer corruptions and boon ripping abilities imtroduced.

In PvE we would be happy to see every support class because of this. Also, this doesn't affect old instanced content, designed with 5 players in mind. On the other hand, 10 player content is what concerns us now, having two mandatory of each support class is making balancing classes in pve a nightmare, my only concern would be making the content too easy by bringing three more dos focused classes since you dont need so many supports. But I can see raid bosses being updated too to comoensate this.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> ... ya know. I never thought about shouts having 10 targeting. That ... actually makes entirely too much sense thematically, but lets look as the roster of Shout skills to look for potential balance concerns:

 

Looking at your list, I'm almost amazed how much such a simple adjustment would change. And it certainly sounds great.

 

I especially love the incidental help for WvW. I originally thought such a change would hurt WvW, but I see it helping instead. You probably would need to keep reaper shouts from 10 targetting enemies, though. People are worried enough about Reaper in WvW as is, but all the supportive changes sound great for the game.

 

Especially love what a Tempest would bring. It almost sounds like what the original class should have been.

 

If raids would get too much damage with this, then perhaps it could be combined with a DPS adjustment by reducing the overall DPS of an individual raider to allow for easier balancing, with low HP/low armor specs having slightly higher damage, but the overall delta between the professions being much smaller.

 

Undoing the PoF power creep would probably be enough combined with this.

[Lexan.5930]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> We are looking to fix this with Sand Savant, so that the scourge can effectively affect 10 targets simultaneously when using the larger shade. I can't give an ETA because the solutions are still being evaluated, but I can say it's on our radar.

 

thank you so much for responding to this. I have been annoyed on mathias trying to give the whole raid barrier but instead it just goes to my group allies unless i'm standing away from everyone.

 

Thanks for working so hard on necro and getting it working as intended :)

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> ... ya know. I never thought about shouts having 10 targeting. That ... actually makes entirely too much sense thematically, but lets look as the roster of Shout skills to look for potential balance concerns:

 

Great analysis! Thank you for going so deep on that subject - it's something I often thought about, albeit not to your depths :)

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Hana.8143 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > @Hana.8143 said:

> > > 10/10 for the art, true masterpiece.

> > > @"Karl McLain.5604" Also, if you happen to bring this for the scourge, do it for pve, cause ya know... it's ok for raids. But not for WvW :)

> > > and reduce the qfqlksdfhqlkhsdf CRIPPLE Karl, PLEASE !

> >

> > only way to reduce cripple if you compensate with mobility.

>

> *cough...* tp *cough...* stability, swiftness *cough...* breakstun *cough cough...*

> Man, i'm sick...

 

Whatever pills you keep taking against sickness....... stop it.....

[Swiftwynd.1685]

Just wanted to say thanks Karl for looking into and fixed this bug, or at least passing it on to someone, and for letting us know a head of time! Can't wait to finally get to unleash my support Scourge with her full force :)