Fear on Warhorn and/or Focus for Necro

[Lily.1935]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"killfil.3472" said:

> > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear.

> >

> > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know.

>

> Probably for lockdown..

> Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage.

>

> Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol

 

I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > @"killfil.3472" said:

> > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear.

> > >

> > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know.

> >

> > Probably for lockdown..

> > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage.

> >

> > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol

>

> I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait.

 

That could certainly work, but they'd have to keep the CC duration the same as the current daze duration or it would end up being a nerf.

Pretty sure 1 sec daze does the same defiance bar damage as 1 sec of fear does.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > @"killfil.3472" said:

> > > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear.

> > > >

> > > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know.

> > >

> > > Probably for lockdown..

> > > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage.

> > >

> > > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol

> >

> > I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait.

>

> That could certainly work, but they'd have to keep the CC duration the same as the current daze duration or it would end up being a nerf.

> Pretty sure 1 sec daze does the same defiance bar damage as 1 sec of fear does.

 

Its 2 second daze. With the trait it would be 2 seconds of fear. Which is about the same amount. Fear of death is valuable without using a warhorn so there is that. There is also the fact that reaper uses warhorn but doesn't use fear of death. So this would only really effect scourge and core necromancer significantly.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > > @"killfil.3472" said:

> > > > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know.

> > > >

> > > > Probably for lockdown..

> > > > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage.

> > > >

> > > > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol

> > >

> > > I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait.

> >

> > That could certainly work, but they'd have to keep the CC duration the same as the current daze duration or it would end up being a nerf.

> > Pretty sure 1 sec daze does the same defiance bar damage as 1 sec of fear does.

>

> Its 2 second daze. With the trait it would be 2 seconds of fear. Which is about the same amount. Fear of death is valuable without using a warhorn so there is that. There is also the fact that reaper uses warhorn but doesn't use fear of death. So this would only really effect scourge and core necromancer significantly.

 

Yes 2 seconds PvE untraited, 1 second PvP/WvW untraited.

The defiance bar damage is calculated by duration though which i'm sure is 100 bar damage per 1 second of Fear and Daze so greater duration = more damage done.

Im not sure if Fear works on tick though because it's a condition and regarded as a soft CC or if it works like Daze and deals full duration as bar damage when it's applied.

I would assume tick since Fear can also be traited to apply damage per tick as well with Terror.

 

I guess Reaper could use Fear of Death though I doubt it would be all that great.. maybe a Hybrid Reaper with Terror and Insidious Disruption could kinda make some use of it since Terrify would become a 2 second AoE fear that would deal 888 damage to all enemies around them and torment them at the same time which would get the bonus damage from enemies moving.

It sounds like a good combination attack but I doubt it would be all that impressive in practice though.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > > > > > > @"killfil.3472" said:

> > > > > > > I did always find it strange that Wail of Doom dazes rather than fear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the Demo of the game at PAX the Warhorn did fear. Why they changed it to daze I'll never know.

> > > > >

> > > > > Probably for lockdown..

> > > > > Necro's are pretty sucky in the mobility department so having a 2 second daze rather than a 2 second fear is more useful to pin a target down and deal damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > Back in Gw1 Wail of Doom was an Elite Hex spell that reduced all of an enemy's attributes to 0 for a few seconds, that would have been fun in Gw2.. though obviously way too OP lol

> > > >

> > > > I personally would like both as options. Adding the skill conversation to fear of death and merging Banshee's wail with it would help and then it could be 1 second to go to 2 seconds. I use warhorn a lot but I never use the trait.

> > >

> > > That could certainly work, but they'd have to keep the CC duration the same as the current daze duration or it would end up being a nerf.

> > > Pretty sure 1 sec daze does the same defiance bar damage as 1 sec of fear does.

> >

> > Its 2 second daze. With the trait it would be 2 seconds of fear. Which is about the same amount. Fear of death is valuable without using a warhorn so there is that. There is also the fact that reaper uses warhorn but doesn't use fear of death. So this would only really effect scourge and core necromancer significantly.

>

> Yes 2 seconds PvE untraited, 1 second PvP/WvW untraited.

> The defiance bar damage is calculated by duration though which i'm sure is 100 bar damage per 1 second of Fear and Daze so greater duration = more damage done.

> Im not sure if Fear works on tick though because it's a condition and regarded as a soft CC or if it works like Daze and deals full duration as bar damage when it's applied.

> I would assume tick since Fear can also be traited to apply damage per tick as well with Terror.

>

> I guess Reaper could use Fear of Death though I doubt it would be all that great.. maybe a Hybrid Reaper with Terror and Insidious Disruption could kinda make some use of it since Terrify would become a 2 second AoE fear that would deal 888 damage to all enemies around them and torment them at the same time which would get the bonus damage from enemies moving.

> It sounds like a good combination attack but I doubt it would be all that impressive in practice though.

 

Fear is break bar degen it's not instant like daze. Which makes it inferior in raids and fractals. Its break bar damage is about the same overall but considering the duration and time spent its lacking. On something like Damos it doesn't work at all. Fear in PvE is poorly balanced which is a shame. Same goes for taunt.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> Fear is break bar degen it's not instant like daze. Which makes it inferior in raids and fractals. Its break bar damage is about the same overall but considering the duration and time spent its lacking. On something like Damos it doesn't work at all. Fear in PvE is poorly balanced which is a shame. Same goes for taunt.

 

Where _fear_ and _taunt_ are superior is in the fact that they are not removed by other control effects. It's not a very interesting point against _defiant_ foes but the necromancer's tools being hard nerfed by _defiance_ is not anything new.

[Lily.1935]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > Fear is break bar degen it's not instant like daze. Which makes it inferior in raids and fractals. Its break bar damage is about the same overall but considering the duration and time spent its lacking. On something like Damos it doesn't work at all. Fear in PvE is poorly balanced which is a shame. Same goes for taunt.

>

> Where _fear_ and _taunt_ are superior is in the fact that they are not removed by other control effects. It's not a very interesting point against _defiant_ foes but the necromancer's tools being hard nerfed by _defiance_ is not anything new.

 

They're in such an odd spot for PvE. Personally, I'd like arena to create a threat mechanic in PvE as opposed to toughness tanking. If fear and taunt decreased and increased your threat respectively in relation to other skills generating or reducing threat those two conditions could have some fun utility.

 

But that's a whole other conversation.

 

For me, I'd like to see terrormancer become a thing. Maybe not raid viable but at least threatening enough in PvP, wvw and open world PvE. It's too cute atm and strictly worse than both terror scourge and terror reaper which both under preform.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> For me, I'd like to see terrormancer become a thing. Maybe not raid viable but at least threatening enough in PvP, wvw and open world PvE. It's too cute atm and strictly worse than both terror scourge and terror reaper which both under preform.

 

It is already threatening enough in sPvP/WvW, we've already peoples complaining about the necromancer's fear all over the sPvP subforum.

 

Personally, I don't like how fear work in GW2. It's useful and in line with what some other CC can do but I'm just not a fan of this mechanism. I think that among the games I know, the one that express "fear" the best is LOTRO and in GW2 it would be translated as a vitality debuff stackable in intensity (In GW it would not have been far from what the condition _Deep wound_ do, it's just that a %age would be a bit OP in the PvE of a game like GW2).

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > For me, I'd like to see terrormancer become a thing. Maybe not raid viable but at least threatening enough in PvP, wvw and open world PvE. It's too cute atm and strictly worse than both terror scourge and terror reaper which both under preform.

>

> It is already threatening enough in sPvP/WvW, we've already peoples complaining about the necromancer's fear all over the sPvP subforum.

>

> Personally, I don't like how fear work in GW2. It's useful and in line with what some other CC can do but I'm just not a fan of this mechanism. I think that among the games I know, the one that express "fear" the best is LOTRO and in GW2 it would be translated as a vitality debuff stackable in intensity (In GW it would not have been far from what the condition _Deep wound_ do, it's just that a %age would be a bit OP in the PvE of a game like GW2).

 

If someone has frequent Stability access and you rotate your Corrupts and other Fears properly you can almost perma-Fear someone to death. I use Staff + Axe/Focus , Spectral Ring, and Path of Corruption when I play core power Necro, and under the right circumstances I can Fear someone between 3 and 6 times consecutively.

 

I don't agree with people that complain about Necro's access to Fear because it only gets ridiculous if the target has Stability. If someone wants to counter this they just have to be more cautious about using it, otherwise it has pretty moderate Fear application.

 

I think Terrormancer is still a viable build but is less so now than previously because of the added cast time to Doom.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If someone has frequent Stability access and you rotate your Corrupts and other Fears properly you can almost perma-Fear someone to death. I use Staff + Axe/Focus , Spectral Ring, and Path of Corruption when I play core power Necro, and under the right circumstances I can Fear someone between 3 and 6 times consecutively.

>

> I don't agree with people that complain about Necro's access to Fear because it only gets ridiculous if the target has Stability. If someone wants to counter this they just have to be more cautious about using it, otherwise it has pretty moderate Fear application.

>

> I think Terrormancer is still a viable build but is less so now than previously because of the added cast time to Doom.

 

I don't disagree with you, players tend to overreact when they find themself in front of a build they have a hard time fighting against. Nonetheless, the current access to fear is enough, especially in sPvP/WvW where you can corrupt stability into fear (like you say).

[Lily.1935]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Lily.1935" said:

> > For me, I'd like to see terrormancer become a thing. Maybe not raid viable but at least threatening enough in PvP, wvw and open world PvE. It's too cute atm and strictly worse than both terror scourge and terror reaper which both under preform.

>

> It is already threatening enough in sPvP/WvW, we've already peoples complaining about the necromancer's fear all over the sPvP subforum.

>

> Personally, I don't like how fear work in GW2. It's useful and in line with what some other CC can do but I'm just not a fan of this mechanism. I think that among the games I know, the one that express "fear" the best is LOTRO and in GW2 it would be translated as a vitality debuff stackable in intensity (In GW it would not have been far from what the condition _Deep wound_ do, it's just that a %age would be a bit OP in the PvE of a game like GW2).

 

A lot of Guild wars 2 design, along with most RPGs, is based on the design of Dungeons and dragons. So they frequently adapt systems from D&D into their game engine. Fear is no exception to this as it does the same thing in D&D. D&D has more involuntary movement though, GW2 only having fear and taunt. So that's why its designed the way it is. For LOTRO, the themes of the game are a bit different. The characters are usually afraid so fear makes sense to act more as a debuff than a control ability as one of the themes of LOTR is perseverance through adversity. So it makes sense that it would function differently.

 

As for the % vitality debuff idea, Honestly, that would be too OP in PvP let alone PvE. So as exciting as a deep wound would be to me, It just wouldn't be good for GW2's design.

[The Boz.2038]

I never unrestood why the warhorn wasn't fear, tbh.

[Anchoku.8142]

Updating the aggro calculation, the threat mechanic Lily mentioned, was on our wish list since 2012. Control effects, healing, buffs, big damage skill tells (cast time), and overall dps should play a stronger role in the aggro calculation. The aggro mechanic's reliance on toughness affects PvE balance and trait selection too much.

 

The original game developers may have hoped PvE would be difficult enough that everyone would need to consider toughness for sustain purposes but sustain now primarily relies upon damage avoidance skills. Players in instanced PvE opt for dps and support leaving toughness for aggro control.

 

To be fair, Arenanet has attempted some low-tech fixes.

* Break bar on Defiant bosses

* Boss and event phases

* Boss add's

* Pet toughness

* Carapace (I had hoped Carapace would bypass the aggro table but it seems like an aborted effort.)

 

Fear is difficult to balance. For one thing, fear is a gap-opener, which is the opposite of what a low-mobility, debuffing profession needs. Conditions and control effects that act as gap-closers are needed; e.g., taunt, bind, chill, cripple, torment, or slow. Necro also has Fear baked into every build and some modifiers available in traits. Fear also counts as an interrupt where it was excluded in the past. Adding a short fear to a weapon sounds attractive but __Arenanet could simply add another pull like greatsword's Grasping Darkness to any weapon.__

[The Boz.2038]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Fear is difficult to balance. For one thing, fear is a gap-opener, which is the opposite of what a low-mobility, debuffing profession needs. Conditions and control effects that act as gap-closers are needed; e.g., taunt, bind, chill, cripple, torment, or slow. Necro also has Fear baked into every build and some modifiers available in traits. Fear also counts as an interrupt where it was excluded in the past. Adding a short fear to a weapon sounds attractive but __Arenanet could simply add another pull like greatsword's Grasping Darkness to any weapon.__

 

You only "need" a gap closer on a low-mobility debuffing profession if you are melee and beefy. If you are ranged and fragile, you are well served with a gap opener.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Updating the aggro calculation, the threat mechanic Lily mentioned, was on our wish list since 2012. Control effects, healing, buffs, big damage skill tells (cast time), and overall dps should play a stronger role in the aggro calculation. The aggro mechanic's reliance on toughness affects PvE balance and trait selection too much.

>

> The original game developers may have hoped PvE would be difficult enough that everyone would need to consider toughness for sustain purposes but sustain now primarily relies upon damage avoidance skills. Players in instanced PvE opt for dps and support leaving toughness for aggro control.

>

> To be fair, Arenanet has attempted some low-tech fixes.

> * Break bar on Defiant bosses

> * Boss and event phases

> * Boss add's

> * Pet toughness

> * Carapace (I had hoped Carapace would bypass the aggro table but it seems like an aborted effort.)

>

 

They also:

- Increased the necromancer's direct damage. _The necromancer's direct damage used to be 1/2 to 2/3 of what other professions could do._

- Removed the reliance on combo field/finisher for party buff. _This allowed the necromancer to use it's own fields that aren't very attractive and made the fact that it's blast finishers aren't reliable a non-issue._

- Reduced the ability to skip trash mobs between boss fights. _Making the lack of instant mobility and reliable blast finisher of the necro less of an issue._

- Tried to give necromancer thematic support. _In an attempt to improve the necromancer value in group._

- Add instabilities that generate boons/condition in fractals. _In an attempt to make boon conversion and condition manipulation a thing in PvE._

- Gave the necromancer melee cleave and support through e-specs. _Because core isn't up to par in both role for PvE purpose._

- They made pets take less damage if they aren't directly targeted. _To fix their survivability._

- They even introduced skills that deal %age of maximum health damage on boss. _In an attempt to make shroud/barrier a valuable asset._

- Val guardian even have an aegis (boon) that stay until it's removed through boon hate. _In a mock attempt to make boon hate worth something._

 

To my knowledge, the only silly thing that they have yet to try is giving bosses a buff that prevent them from taking critical hits in order to make life leeching effects "viable" as a damaging/support tool.

 

> Fear is difficult to balance. For one thing, fear is a gap-opener, which is the opposite of what a low-mobility, debuffing profession needs. Conditions and control effects that act as gap-closers are needed; e.g., taunt, bind, chill, cripple, torment, or slow. Necro also has Fear baked into every build and some modifiers available in traits. Fear also counts as an interrupt where it was excluded in the past. Adding a short fear to a weapon sounds attractive but __Arenanet could simply add another pull like greatsword's Grasping Darkness to any weapon.__

 

Even if the necromancer had control effects to close gap, it doesn't work on defiant foes anyway.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"The Boz.2038" said:

> I never unrestood why the warhorn wasn't fear, tbh.

 

Doubt you really don't understand why, seeing how it's probably the exact same reason some necro players vouch for that change here, but in case you really can't come up with anything: because necro already has a kittenton of fear sources and probably doesn't need to (/shouldn't) spam more of it. What's the difference between "*having another source of fear*" and "*that source being a difference cc effect (like daze)*"? The traits and runes that improve them. You stack one type of *whatever* on a build/class and it's much easier to make that effect a lot stronger across the board. Putting daze on a weapon gives necro another source of cc without risk/possibility of overloading it with effects you use for other cc (fear) sources. Overally the reason you want that additional fear source is probably the exact reason it's not there.

 

And for me merging the trait "that I don't pick anyways" (Banshee's) with a trait "that I pick anyways" (FoD) effectively buffing/overloading (the fact if it's overloading is subjective, yes) the latter goes against any reasonable point of the traits existing in this game in the first place. Buffing "what you choose anyways" defeats the whole purpose of possible choices and I don't think it's a good direction of proposing the changes.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> What's the difference between "*having another source of fear*" and "*that source being a difference cc effect (like daze)*"? The traits and runes that improve them.

Correct. Example for what happens, if you take wail of doom and just replace the daze with a fear:

 

Reaper:

 

fear >>> chill >>> vulnerability (>>> bleed for condi reaper)

on 5 targets

unblockable

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shivers_of_Dread

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bitter_Chill

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Chill

 

additional synergies:

 

Core:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dread

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Terror

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_the_Weak

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupter%27s_Fervor

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear_of_Death

 

Reaper:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Nova

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cold_Shoulder

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decimate_Defenses

 

All these traits have to be looked at for each fear access you add to necro. And we can expect that each additional fear would lead to some nerfs of these traits - esp. dread, terror and fear of death are problematic.

 

[The Boz.2038]

...and?

You're acting as if a Reaper switching away from GS/Shroud isn't already going into a massive DPS decrease.

(also, condi reaper, lol)

[Sobx.1758]

> @"The Boz.2038" said:

> ...and?

> You're acting as if a Reaper switching away from GS/Shroud isn't already going into a massive DPS decrease.

> (also, condi reaper, lol)

 

...and you're acting as if nothing other than pure dps matters in terms of class balancing and proposed changes. "lol" indeed.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"The Boz.2038" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > And where is your reading comprehension? Dread, fear of death and terror - as the most problematic traits for each additional fear - are core traits. I said that already.

>

> You are the one that specifically singled out Reaper. Nobody really fears Fear on core necro these days.

I did post 6 core traits from which 3 will be highly problematic (overpowered) for any necro spec if additional fears exist. Seriously: When do you start reading my comments before you answer?

 

This is the 2nd time I have to remind you that most of my posting was not exclusively about reaper and the spec did only function as one of several examples. And yet you focus on reaper again to try to prove me wrong.

 

And for discussions with such forum users I get moderated. Ridiculous. I am out of this thread. Bye!

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

Nobody is afraid of Fear on Core Necro. All the theoretical traits you posted technically work with fear (as they also work with daze, because half of them are "on condition", so your list is fairly inflated). The only relevant bits was the reaper, in which case it is either power reaper and negligible extra damage based on conditions, or condi reaper, whose presence is about as fear-inducing as core necro.

There is no *hard* block on changing the 2s daze into 1s fear, or something like that. All the numbers are easily fungible. Pretending there is one shows a lack of imagination.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"The Boz.2038" said:

> There is no *hard* block on changing the 2s daze into 1s fear, or something like that. All the numbers are easily fungible. Pretending there is one shows a lack of imagination.

 

The only reason people want warhorn to get fear instead of daze is to exploit a bit more the existing traits which are already more powerful than they should granted the overly inflated access to fear since the start of the game. The necromancer focus to much on fear, if anything, for balance's sake, he need more of the other CCs and less fear.

 

Edit: _Spectral wall_ now _Spectral ring_ used to apply vulnerability instead of fear. The sources of boon conversion on the necromancer have increased a lot. And as far as I recall, lich form didn't have fear. I'm not even sure that boon conversion converted stability to fear prior to 2015.