Vambrace.8675 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @Dawdler.8521 said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > You have no experience in dealing with this at all, you played the game for the deadeye, you let him follow you for an hour, get your ranged weapon out, take him to a point where you have the higher ground and you have pretty much shut his play down because 9/10 what ever he tries something will obstruct his shots and you can clearly see the lazer beam. This is just 1 example > > This deadeye counter example would imply that the deadeye is a complete idiot, in which case chances to win are high regardless of having high ground or not. > > > > Unless you mean that we automatically chop his legs off when he inevitable abuse teleports to go to said higher grounds. > > Who the hell let's 1 guy chase them all around the map for a hour with out even coming up with a tactic to deal with him, An idiot. > > What I mean is people just can not act upon what they are up against and cry for nerf's. Use your imgination or something lol, use los - get into a tower - even run to skritt/centaurs - take him to the water, but do something :-/ I never said nerf anything... I said lets get this spec known so groups of them can run around together... At that point this will take care of itself. Im not going to engage in debate about this spec. I want to see it go full throttle on WvW and see how bad it gets...and it will get bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilSardine.9635 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Deadeye is a troll's dream in WvW. I can sit there and "snipe" people who are already having a tough fight. There's ZERO they can do about it. It's insane the amount of damage I can put out with zero contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > > Me and a guildy picked up a deadeye tail somehow. He followed us around the map only dropping stealth when well out of distance. Just followed us around the map for about an hour 1 shottting the first and 2 or 3 shotting the second... I reached him once for a hit before going down. > > > > > > > > > > > > At one point I sat and watched him applying stealth over and over never popping out anywhere I could see...he was hoping my buddy would attempt a rez... when I ran out of time he was still dropping stealth fields around me camping my body... completely circumventing revealed. > > > > > > > > If you want to solo grief small parties this is the specialization for you. Lets get this rolling and further degrade WvW. This spec is designed specifically to grief other players. Soon it will be common to run into teams of these guys downing entire havoc squads without being attacked in return.... > > > > > > > > Not really the makings of a good situation. I could easily play this spec I have everything I need but never play my thief none the less this set up because it feels cheap... I want to have a fight not insta down people without any exchange at all.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have no experience in dealing with this at all, you played the game for the deadeye, you let him follow you for an hour, get your ranged weapon out, take him to a point where you have the higher ground and you have pretty much shut his play down because 9/10 what ever he tries something will obstruct his shots and you can clearly see the lazer beam. This is just 1 example > > > > I was the other guy :) > > > > It was that he would respond to swords, go to traffic areas, etc, but being a slow time on the map he just had to respond to map call outs or general activity to find us. > > > > So, if we rolled into a camp, we pretty much had to move on if we noticed him at any point or his SR. If we didn't, then whoever stayed was dead. > > > > Earlier, I was fighting a determined SoS spellbreaker when I noticed the DE appear for a split second while setting up position, so I bailed on the SB. I probably had him thinking I was running away from him, until I got a bag 5s later from him, courtesy of the DE. > > > > So I'm not sure that there's much counterplay beyond just leaving the area. As Vambrace said, the DE can maintain permanent stealth and the DE later told me he's packing Shadow Meld in case he gets revealed (which I imagine he's using as soon as he gets the DJ shot off). > > > > Honestly, the game has had much worse stuff to deal with in the past, and I don't really mind the spec since almost nobody seems to run it. But I don't think the game has had anything that was so anti-fight either. > > Why are you not traiting sight beyond sight and or a taunt or mageborn tether if so worried about a thief and stealth? (I assume you on your warrior)Mageborn tether stays attached even if the enemy used Meld to remove the reveal . It then pulses another reveal. I have met some few warriors that used this for a kill on my own DE and have used it myself. Obviously you need a burst to land to get it to kick in but certain bursts will hit all targets nearby even if they stealthed. > > Other classes have reveals as well so if as example a warrior running with an engie , the two in conjunction can rotate reveals to overwhelm the Deadeyes ability to stealth. If it an inability to close to range to use said skills before the DE breaks off and flees, well that just the nature of kiting and part of any thief's forte, that being the ability to disengage from a fight . apharma already did a thorough job responding, but to summarize, none of what you proposed would have worked. We just had the split second of reveal while the DE was channeling DJ to respond, and the warrior doesn't have a burst skill that land that fast, even assuming impossible reaction times, the DE being in range (never was), and that the incoming damage from DJ wouldn't have to be mitigated somehow in that same split second (it would). Of course, you also need adren to even access a burst, and there was usually no fight so no adren. I actually dropped a stealth trap in hopes that he'd trip it (he didn't). When I told him how close he got to it (a couple of meters), that's when he told me it wouldn't have worked anyway due to Shadow Meld. I think he also has Shadow Step in case things go wrong, needs to port stomp, etc. Anyway, as mentioned, it's an unusual situation in that we've certainly seen more awful things in the game from an enjoyment perspective, but I think this is the most disruptive build from a fights and a roaming pee pee tee perspective. I think Vambrace is right though. If it catches on, then it'll work itself out. If not, it's not game breaking since its too limited, but it might get pinched by Anet anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Lobsters.3869 said: > I'm an elementalist and I run around wvw with about 12000 hp. I have the least amount of armor in the game and I'll routinely get shot by a hidden target for 16-20,000 health points. I dare say that this skill is not working as intended when the direct damage is enough to instantly gib the characters in the game with the least amount of protection. If anything, there should be a warning which says you have been targeted and are about to take fatal damage if you do not act now. Which would allow a player atleast a second to react. > > I'm supposed to be the direct damage wizard in the game I think. We deal the highest single target damage, or the tool-tip used to say so. The only way I can get over 20,000 damage in a single hit is if I'm spammed with might and then my only two spells which can hit for this much are Fire Grab which has a range of about 200 and Churning Earth which is channeled and has a range of about 600. At no point in this am I hidden from view and cannot be seen or targeted by an opponent. > > In GW1, which was an utter balance fiasco, I realized that this game is not made to be balanced. Its a picturesque nice distraction. > > this matchup i met an enemy fresh air weaver with scepter focus a few times, the first time i did oneshot him for 30k marking his friend so he complained a bit in whisper. and said its unbalanced compared to backstab as he would survive one and then could react while he has no chance to react to DJ. then i told him and showed him every tell of that skill and from then on i wasnt able to hit 1 DJ when he assumed i was in the area and i tried quite a few times. so i did something else : marked him, waited for 7 malice, poped assassins signet as usual and backstab over 20k.. he didnt see that one comming. what i want to tell you with this is: its not just DJ that will kill you in one hit if you run with the defense you mentioned and other skills might have less of a tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > Deadeye is a troll's dream in WvW. I can sit there and "snipe" people who are already having a tough fight. There's ZERO they can do about it. It's insane the amount of damage I can put out with zero contest. At that point so can literally any ranged weapon class. Try finding another -this time valid- argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > > > Me and a guildy picked up a deadeye tail somehow. He followed us around the map only dropping stealth when well out of distance. Just followed us around the map for about an hour 1 shottting the first and 2 or 3 shotting the second... I reached him once for a hit before going down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At one point I sat and watched him applying stealth over and over never popping out anywhere I could see...he was hoping my buddy would attempt a rez... when I ran out of time he was still dropping stealth fields around me camping my body... completely circumventing revealed. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to solo grief small parties this is the specialization for you. Lets get this rolling and further degrade WvW. This spec is designed specifically to grief other players. Soon it will be common to run into teams of these guys downing entire havoc squads without being attacked in return.... > > > > > > > > > > Not really the makings of a good situation. I could easily play this spec I have everything I need but never play my thief none the less this set up because it feels cheap... I want to have a fight not insta down people without any exchange at all.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have no experience in dealing with this at all, you played the game for the deadeye, you let him follow you for an hour, get your ranged weapon out, take him to a point where you have the higher ground and you have pretty much shut his play down because 9/10 what ever he tries something will obstruct his shots and you can clearly see the lazer beam. This is just 1 example > > > > > > I was the other guy :) > > > > > > It was that he would respond to swords, go to traffic areas, etc, but being a slow time on the map he just had to respond to map call outs or general activity to find us. > > > > > > So, if we rolled into a camp, we pretty much had to move on if we noticed him at any point or his SR. If we didn't, then whoever stayed was dead. > > > > > > Earlier, I was fighting a determined SoS spellbreaker when I noticed the DE appear for a split second while setting up position, so I bailed on the SB. I probably had him thinking I was running away from him, until I got a bag 5s later from him, courtesy of the DE. > > > > > > So I'm not sure that there's much counterplay beyond just leaving the area. As Vambrace said, the DE can maintain permanent stealth and the DE later told me he's packing Shadow Meld in case he gets revealed (which I imagine he's using as soon as he gets the DJ shot off). > > > > > > Honestly, the game has had much worse stuff to deal with in the past, and I don't really mind the spec since almost nobody seems to run it. But I don't think the game has had anything that was so anti-fight either. > > > > Why are you not traiting sight beyond sight and or a taunt or mageborn tether if so worried about a thief and stealth? (I assume you on your warrior)Mageborn tether stays attached even if the enemy used Meld to remove the reveal . It then pulses another reveal. I have met some few warriors that used this for a kill on my own DE and have used it myself. Obviously you need a burst to land to get it to kick in but certain bursts will hit all targets nearby even if they stealthed. > > > > Other classes have reveals as well so if as example a warrior running with an engie , the two in conjunction can rotate reveals to overwhelm the Deadeyes ability to stealth. If it an inability to close to range to use said skills before the DE breaks off and flees, well that just the nature of kiting and part of any thief's forte, that being the ability to disengage from a fight . > > apharma already did a thorough job responding, but to summarize, none of what you proposed would have worked. > > We just had the split second of reveal while the DE was channeling DJ to respond, and the warrior doesn't have a burst skill that land that fast, even assuming impossible reaction times, the DE being in range (never was), and that the incoming damage from DJ wouldn't have to be mitigated somehow in that same split second (it would). Of course, you also need adren to even access a burst, and there was usually no fight so no adren. > > I actually dropped a stealth trap in hopes that he'd trip it (he didn't). When I told him how close he got to it (a couple of meters), that's when he told me it wouldn't have worked anyway due to Shadow Meld. I think he also has Shadow Step in case things go wrong, needs to port stomp, etc. > > Anyway, as mentioned, it's an unusual situation in that we've certainly seen more awful things in the game from an enjoyment perspective, but I think this is the most disruptive build from a fights and a roaming pee pee tee perspective. > > I think Vambrace is right though. If it catches on, then it'll work itself out. If not, it's not game breaking since its too limited, but it might get pinched by Anet anyway. I am really not interested in what Apharma had to say as he has a long history of calling for nerfs to virtually every aspect of thief gameplay. I do play warrior as well and in fact have three of them. I have never been downed bY a DJ from a thief in a 1v1 let alone a 2v1. A warrior just has too many tools available to avoid the DJ shot and by your own words you were aware the thief in the area so it was not a "surprise". As Mudse indicated in a later post , once he informed an opposing player what to look for on an incoming DJ that player was able to avoid every such shot. DJ has one of the most easily recognized and visible tells in the game and in a 2v1 scenario where said thief at 1500 range , there should be no way a warrior can not dodge , block , reflect or avoid those shots. The Thief at very best can get off three (they would have to pause some seconds between each to get back ini) and the warrior has more then three ways to avoid the same. There a reason the thief following you rather then engaging between camps. the DE set with Rifle is poor at doing such. It needs its target to confine itself to a given locale that would be in range of its shots when the DE finally sets up for the same. Secondly if at 1500 range, which you indicated the case, there even more ways to ensure the DJ shot does not hit. When you see that meam incoming if you just MOVE in the opposite direction said beam coming from , then you will be out of range. You can move behind pillars and walls and other obstacles. I have even used bladestrom to block a DJ when in my d/d build.The DJ is kneeling so his LOS is compromised and more shots will be obstructed then if standing. You have two dodges at minimum along with blocks and reflects in some combination. If you burned these off while KNOWING the thief following you or if you were not paying attention wherein you did not react to that purple beam , then if you were still hit it on you. To your inability to engage said DE. First ANY thief that wants to focus on avoiding combat can do so. This is not a DE issue and in fact other specs can do this easier. I will suggest that if you just focus on avoiding his DJ shots with your own blocks , dodges and the like, the DE will likely never (or rarely) kill you and accomplishes little by following you around. I am often on my own warrior or another class with less mobility then a Thief or mesmer I might encounter and they will often just taunt with short attacks and then run off knowing I can not catch them. I just ignore them and move on. There no point trying to catch them if they do not want to be caught. That said a DE is less mobile then most Thief builds and needs to kneel and stay in place when they setup for a DJ. I have used gap closers followed by a reveal to out them. Bulls charge is an evade that moves you 900 in distance. If I see that purple beam I charge towards them. None of their incoming will hit me for the duration of its evade and I am now 900 closer. A better tactic is to pay attention to how much the DE will have expended in INI and when you know theylow start with GS rush followed bulls charge to close that gap. This gets you that 1500 distance. Obviously the thief can just pick up and mve but just like your warrior the DE resources are not infinite and the delays this affords in getting off the next DJ shot means it more likely that malice will run down and have to be reset from scratch. Most De's will not engage at that 1500 range in any case as against players with an understanding of the build , far too many shots can be outright avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > A warrior just has too many tools available to avoid the DJ shot and by your own words you were aware the thief in the area so it was not a "surprise". But... none of the warrior tools you referred to in your post would have worked, like... not one. Not the Bull's Charge play, not the reveal, not the moving out of range play, not the burst-magebane tether play you proposed in the previous post, none of it. The only thing that does work that you kind of bumped up against is what I've already said, that you can move out of the area. There's no fight to be had though, and if this particular spec finds you later, you'll have to do the same again. And if you're busy doing something else, even just taking a camp, then you're probably dead. And that just is what it is. Also, to clear up some confusion, Vambrace wasn't saying that a DE was following us around for an hour without us doing anything about it. He was following us around how any roamer follows anybody on a slow map, responding to swords caused by our activity, anticipating where we'd go based on things we flipped, or going to traffic areas. The difference from the usual was just that, even if we saw his SR when we showed, there'd be no fight, no blocking LoS, and certainly no doing anything but leaving the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > A warrior just has too many tools available to avoid the DJ shot and by your own words you were aware the thief in the area so it was not a "surprise". > > But... none of the warrior tools you referred to in your post would have worked, like... not one. Not the Bull's Charge play, not the reveal, not the moving out of range play, not the burst-magebane tether play you proposed in the previous post, none of it. > > The only thing that does work that you kind of bumped up against is what I've already said, that you can move out of the area. There's no fight to be had though, and if this particular spec finds you later, you'll have to do the same again. And if you're busy doing something else, even just taking a camp, then you're probably dead. And that just is what it is. > > Also, to clear up some confusion, Vambrace wasn't saying that a DE was following us around for an hour without us doing anything about it. He was following us around how any roamer follows anybody on a slow map, responding to swords caused by our activity, anticipating where we'd go based on things we flipped, or going to traffic areas. The difference from the usual was just that, even if we saw his SR when we showed, there'd be no fight, no blocking LoS, and certainly no doing anything but leaving the area. As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. You should not be getting Hit by a DJ from 1500 range on your warrior in a 2v1. . I KNOW the limitations of DJ. It costs 6 ini per cast. It tkes 10+ seconds to get that malice built. Malice expires. Warrior also has more blocks/dodges then a DE has Dj's. As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. If he shoots from 1500 and you move away from the beam when it appears the shot will misss. Tell me how it can still hit you? I do it to De's on my warrior. People do it to me on my DE. I am mystified as to how you claim it does not work. This is why when he chasing you camp to camp he does not set up at 1500 to take a shot. You will be out of range by time the shot gets to where you were. Most De's will in fact move closer then 1500 so as to ensure this does not happen. When I use SR I use it so as to get closer to my target wherein I am sure there will be no obstructions all the while building malice while relocating to position the mark may not be focusing on. What is the point of using SR at 1500 range and just staying there? Get in closer and make sure the shot counts . Now as to taking a camp. Yes a DE can wreak havoc on you if you are occupied taking a camp. He can wait until you expend your resources and defensive abilities and then take his shot. My rebuttal to you was premised on your stating you KNEW he was around and following you. If you are on a warrior taking a camp, there no reason you should need to use your dodges or blocks The camp is not so "busy" with visual noise that you can not see that beam. I would point out that ANY class can approach a person unwares and take them out in short order if they focused on doing something else and this includes other thief builds. Now I have had instances on my warrior where I knew that a Thief on that bridge up above the entrance to SWC was there and had me singled out for attacks with malice. I had no way to get at him but was still able to avoid all the DJ shots just by using a dodge/evade when that beam showed. Do not worry about your ability to see the thief. Just look for the beam and listen for the audibles Again I have done this in the past. I am going to suggest to you that you roll up a DE and play that stalk and hunt style. Do this for weeks on end. Do not focus on the people you are able to take out using that build and method. Focus on the people you can NOT kill and what they do to counter. You absolutely WILL encounter warriors that can avoid those shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > @babazhook.6805 said: > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. Neither have I called for nerfs, I’d prefer to see the spec reworked a fair bit because it’s lacking in many areas but seems to hint at damage support through might stacking though it isn’t quite there and don’t think it can quite replace warriors for PvE much less be an option for offensive support elsewhere. I doubt you’ll accomplish anything continuing this conversation with baba, he has a long history of never wanting to see changes to thief or admitting its too strong in areas it is too strong in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > Neither have I called for nerfs, I’d prefer to see the spec reworked a fair bit because it’s lacking in many areas but seems to hint at damage support through might stacking though it isn’t quite there and don’t think it can quite replace warriors for PvE much less be an option for offensive support elsewhere. I doubt you’ll accomplish anything continuing this conversation with baba, he has a long history of never wanting to see changes to thief or admitting its too strong in areas it is too strong in. You contradict yourself in two sentences. Why would I have "admit" to the thief being too strong in certain area while in the same short post you claimed to have never called for nerfs to thief and claiming the spec lacking in many areas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew.1865 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I don’t have issues with DE in wvw. Not sure what the issue is? If you play glass cannon maybe DE can one shot you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needbeer.1687 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 hate on the reaper/scourge all you want but when you look at the bigger picture they have no mobility. virtually no stab. no real way to escape a fight. little to no regen.and the list goes on. all they have is condis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > Neither have I called for nerfs, I’d prefer to see the spec reworked a fair bit because it’s lacking in many areas but seems to hint at damage support through might stacking though it isn’t quite there and don’t think it can quite replace warriors for PvE much less be an option for offensive support elsewhere. I doubt you’ll accomplish anything continuing this conversation with baba, he has a long history of never wanting to see changes to thief or admitting its too strong in areas it is too strong in. > > You contradict yourself in two sentences. Why would I have "admit" to the thief being too strong in certain area while in the same short post you claimed to have never called for nerfs to thief and claiming the spec lacking in many areas? Poor mechanics and nerfs are not the same thing. You can have mechanics that work poorly or are bad for the game that are underpowered, balanced or overpowered. Building malice off an ambient and then using DJ to one shot someone much further away isn’t how a lot of people saw DE in the reveal or how ANet unveiled it to us, the reveal was all about marking a target, building up to the one shot. However if changed to be like that DJ ends up more balanced but the rest of the spec ends up garbage with no real niche or usefulness in any other area which is every single problem the thief has had since launch, it’s roles have not expanded, changed or got any more interesting in 5 year. DE doesn’t really work with other weapon sets quite as well either, the spec needs a big overhaul so it won’t be this extremely niche troll sniper build where the counter is to run away or avoid fights and can actually be useful in other areas of the game and on other weapons. I personally hope they go ham on the boon sharing and generation from fire for effect and perfectionist/stolen skills increasing it from just might to all the other boons you have as well. The mark and malice I also feel could do with a little more tuning, increasing the damage malice stacks give in general to the class while reducing the bonus damage of DJ so DJ ends up doing the same damage but you actually get a damage bonus for other weapon skills against the marked target. Then see how the class performs from there and if it opens up different builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambrace.8675 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. > > Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. > > As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously. When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue". To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > > > > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > > > > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > > > > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. > > > > Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. > > > > As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. > > My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously. > > When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue". > > To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result. The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's. I can do the same on a number of thief builds The person in question may be a beter player then is the norm but good players are good players and this true across any class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > Neither have I called for nerfs, I’d prefer to see the spec reworked a fair bit because it’s lacking in many areas but seems to hint at damage support through might stacking though it isn’t quite there and don’t think it can quite replace warriors for PvE much less be an option for offensive support elsewhere. I doubt you’ll accomplish anything continuing this conversation with baba, he has a long history of never wanting to see changes to thief or admitting its too strong in areas it is too strong in. > > > > You contradict yourself in two sentences. Why would I have "admit" to the thief being too strong in certain area while in the same short post you claimed to have never called for nerfs to thief and claiming the spec lacking in many areas? > > Poor mechanics and nerfs are not the same thing. You can have mechanics that work poorly or are bad for the game that are underpowered, balanced or overpowered. Building malice off an ambient and then using DJ to one shot someone much further away isn’t how a lot of people saw DE in the reveal or how ANet unveiled it to us, the reveal was all about marking a target, building up to the one shot. However if changed to be like that DJ ends up more balanced but the rest of the spec ends up garbage with no real niche or usefulness in any other area which is every single problem the thief has had since launch, it’s roles have not expanded, changed or got any more interesting in 5 year. > > DE doesn’t really work with other weapon sets quite as well either, the spec needs a big overhaul so it won’t be this extremely niche troll sniper build where the counter is to run away or avoid fights and can actually be useful in other areas of the game and on other weapons. I personally hope they go ham on the boon sharing and generation from fire for effect and perfectionist/stolen skills increasing it from just might to all the other boons you have as well. The mark and malice I also feel could do with a little more tuning, increasing the damage malice stacks give in general to the class while reducing the bonus damage of DJ so DJ ends up doing the same damage but you actually get a damage bonus for other weapon skills against the marked target. Then see how the class performs from there and if it opens up different builds. You are like the Politican claiming he wants to enhance protections to the Environmnet even as he appoints a Coal mining executive to head the body responsible. You can not claim in one breath you do not want nerfs to a given build and then in the next claim the same build is OP and needs to be changed. You have complained about theif mobility in the past, its ability to stealth, the numbr of ports and virtually everything that makes a thief work. When you suggest you want to enhance the same I for one am not fooled. If the person playing a thief wanted to play a warrior he would roll up a warrior. Those playing thief want a mobile and stealthy class, things YOu deem are "broken mechanics" (Using the term Broken mechanics is just cover for the "I have never called for nerfs" As to your claim DE does not work with other specs very well. You are not playing one. DE works very well with P/P , with s/p. I know this because I play these sets in DE. I have since stared one using d/p as well.Go to the THIEF forum and they are quite happy wit the DE spec and the majority of the complaints are on the RIFLE. Some small few think malice builds too slowly and the only other issue with the spec that people have in common is wanting a trait that lowers ICDs for cantrips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 >>hate on the reaper/scourge all you want but when you look at the bigger picture they have no mobility. virtually no stab. no real way to escape a fight. little to no regen.and the list goes on. all they have is condis. I really do not have issues with scourges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arzurag.7506 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 A bug with malice stacking on a marked target was perpetually mentioned here. Still, I´m confused what it could be. As far as I know Deadeye is working as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambrace.8675 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > > > > > > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > > > > > > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > > > > > > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. > > > > > > Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. > > > > > > As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. > > > > My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously. > > > > When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue". > > > > To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result. > > The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's. > > I can do the same on a number of thief builds You respond to every post in a dismissive fashion. You were rude towards me even though I never once called for a nerf. In my mind you come off as someone blindly defending Thief because you play a Thief which hurts your cred quite a bit. I play Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and yes I play Thief. I am not bias for or against Thief but this spec clearly has the potential to damage roaming and Havoc playstlyes via area denial in the right hands. Are those hands yours? Sounds like maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > > > > > > > > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > > > > > > > > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > > > > > > > > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. > > > > > > > > Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. > > > > > > > > As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. > > > > > > My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously. > > > > > > When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue". > > > > > > To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result. > > > > The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's. > > > > I can do the same on a number of thief builds > > You respond to every post in a dismissive fashion. You were rude towards me even though I never once called for a nerf. In my mind you come off as someone blindly defending Thief because you play a Thief which hurts your cred quite a bit. I play Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and yes I play Thief. > > I am not bias for or against Thief but this spec clearly has the potential to damage roaming and Havoc playstlyes via area denial in the right hands. Are those hands yours? Sounds like maybe not. Rude? I responded to ONE post you made indicating the build not out the ordinary. Building a spec premised around ability to stealth and escape is nothing new for a thief. I do not hav to even see the build to know it pretty close to one I have. Stating the obvious is hardly rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambrace.8675 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @babazhook.6805 said: > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. > > > > > > > > > > As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. > > > > > > > > My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously. > > > > > > > > When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue". > > > > > > > > To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result. > > > > > > The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's. > > > > > > I can do the same on a number of thief builds > > > > You respond to every post in a dismissive fashion. You were rude towards me even though I never once called for a nerf. In my mind you come off as someone blindly defending Thief because you play a Thief which hurts your cred quite a bit. I play Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and yes I play Thief. > > > > I am not bias for or against Thief but this spec clearly has the potential to damage roaming and Havoc playstlyes via area denial in the right hands. Are those hands yours? Sounds like maybe not. > > Rude? I told you how to survive againt the spec. Apparently you consider such advice as being rude. I think if you read back through the thread you will see the truth of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > @Vambrace.8675 said: > > > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > As example Claiming that you can NOT move out of range of a DJ shot taken at full range is simply false and countered by the facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said he was always at max range. In fact, he was generally much closer than that, but still well out of melee range. But this is the important point: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @babazhook.6805 said: > > > > > > > > > As I stated , ANY Thief build can be constructed so as to ensure it can escape a conflict if desired. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly, and he was built to do just that, and otherwise stay in stealth and one-shot with DJ. That's all I've said... haven't even called for nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for waiting for the beam to dodge when taking a camp, it's not a particularly realistic suggestion. As well, a good DE (and this guy has skill and good judgement) would be to start the channel while I'm already locked in an animation (like a dodge, whirlwind, etc). Also, I'm not convinced that anyone on the planet has the attention span to watch for, and react to, a half second frame that could literally come at any time, especially while distracted by other things in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was not just me who understood you to be saying the attacks were taking place from extreme range as others supporting your position stated 1500. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to reaction times, I am an old school hunt and peck type typist having grown up with typewriters. I am likely much older then you are and am able to react fast enough to dodge these shots. I do not consider my reflexes as what they once were .75 seconds is a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You will have less time to react if he at point blank range or within 600 to be sure (and will have a harder time seeing the beam as it will be so short in length) but that defeats the whole "there nothing That can counter argument" (mageborn tether has 600 range). Now MUDSE made a post as to how he encountered a player that on having it explained what to look for in a DJ shot saw that player able to avoid all such shots taken after that. Here is a truism. If one person claims it impossible to perform a certain task and then is unable to do it, and a second person claims it possible to perform that same task and is able to do it, then the task is not impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, not sure what to tell you about the 1500 range thing. Neither vambrace or I said that Also, Magebound Tether isn't an option when there's no fight and at 600 range, as mentioned previously. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for reaction time, remember that we've fought and I've landed hits on you with more obvious tells. Just based on your comments, it seems likely that you haven't come across what I'm talking about yet. In fact, most people in my guild haven't seen it yet. It's fairly rare but, once you come across it, you'll see why it's not like a regular ol' Deadeye in the wild, and why most of what you're saying isn't really connecting to the reality of the situation. > > > > > > > > > > My thoughts are covered here... I think this discussion is focused on the current run of the mill deadeye spec/player. The situation we ran into was not that... the DE we sort of fought had developed DE to a level well beyond what I have seen previously. > > > > > > > > > > When I come across 90 percent of DE's its a fight and can go either way... Once this particular stealth sniper spec becomes more common place this conversation will make much more sense to folks that dont "get the issue". > > > > > > > > > > To clarify, I like the DE concept... Not calling for nerfs. That said I am really curious to see if this one player was really that good and had broken the standard skill cieling or if this will catch on and be common place. If its the latter we will likely see some serious impacts to roaming and havoc squad play as a result. > > > > > > > > The spec is not that special. it build for escape primarily and dent players should still be able to avoid most of those Dj's. > > > > > > > > I can do the same on a number of thief builds > > > > > > You respond to every post in a dismissive fashion. You were rude towards me even though I never once called for a nerf. In my mind you come off as someone blindly defending Thief because you play a Thief which hurts your cred quite a bit. I play Guardian, Ranger, Warrior, Necro and yes I play Thief. > > > > > > I am not bias for or against Thief but this spec clearly has the potential to damage roaming and Havoc playstlyes via area denial in the right hands. Are those hands yours? Sounds like maybe not. > > > > Rude? I told you how to survive againt the spec. Apparently you consider such advice as being rude. > > I think if you read back through the thread you will see the truth of it. Rude can be a matter of perspective. He sees that he gave you advice, you see it as more the way it's worded. Neither of you feel you were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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