Have shouts be scale vs stronger enemies?

[Al Masone.1274]

After quite some time spent trying shouts I have to admit that they are kinda lackluster, except probably "chilled to the bone" which I find very fun to use, even when it doesn't do that much.

That said, I was thinking, what if their effect scaled not just with the number of enemies, but with their tier? That means, veteran foes may count as 2-3 foes, elites as 3-4, and champions and legendaries could count as full 5 targets, in regards to all the effects of shroud:

- "your soul is mine" would grant more healing and life force based on the tier of the target it

- "nothing can save you" could convert up to 10 boons to vulnerability, grant also the bonus unblockable seconds and maybe deal up to 5 times as much damage to legendary foes

- "rise" similarly would do more damage and spawn more minions the stronger the enemy hit

- "suffer" could transfer up to 5 conditions on the same target, and why not, applying the duration of chill to a champion or legendary as if it hit 5 targets

- "you are al weaklings" I actually don't know, yes it would get you 10 stacks of might and apply longer weakness to veterans and up, but as a reaper do we really need that? I think this shout should have different effects aside from the stun break, which is the only good thing here, but all the other stun breaks of the necro are way better even if this granted 25 might in one use.

- chilled to the bone could have a stronger stun effect versus veterans and up, making it a more effective breakbar tool, and also granting longer stability.

 

I don't think this is a perfect idea, and it would only work in pve, but maybe it would make shouts an option. As they are now, the only shouts that are possibly worth a mention are the heal, but mainly for the life force gen, the minion summoning, and the elite. But even then they could use some buffs.

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally I don't think _shouts_ need to be stronger in any way. They are designed to scale on the number of foes (and, for once, it's pretty well done), it would be a mess if they also scaled with the strength of the foes.

 

This is not the kind of change the reaper/necromancer need in PvE. I'd rather have ANet's dev reduce _chilling nova_ ICD to 4-6 seconds than invest time in generating an algorythm that would allow shout to be more powerful against higher tier foes.

[Anchoku.8142]

Have you tried using Rune of the Reaper?

[Al Masone.1274]

Rune of the reaper is not meta, gives toughness which is useless, and only gives 1 second of chill, so no, why should I think about it?

[Infusion.7149]

I'd rather boon corrupts do more in PVE (for example, defiance bar damage). Shouts aren't pivotal to necromancer viability as most people run Signet of Spite and wells for power builds.

[KrHome.1920]

The shout mechanic is good. Shouts are the lowest cooldown utility skills for necro. Additionally they can be improved with a trait and a rune (soldier/trooper, reaper).

 

The 5 target effect is extremely good for every single reaper shout - even untraited and even without a shout rune. The base effect is mostly adequate for the low cooldown.

 

- YSIM: is a very low cooldown heal and only outclassed in raw healing by the traited signet of vampirism, which has a higher cast time and does not generate life force.

- SUFFER: while the single target condi cleanse is almost useless, it is a great skill to setup a kiting attempt or to deny a kiting attempt at melee range. Besides that it is a nice instant cast damage multiplier.

- NCSY: used to be great, but became underpowered with the unblockable mechanic rework. Removing its cast time would still be problematic, so the shout should get an additional effect.

- YAAW: a 25 second cooldown stunbreak is very good, but the weakness application has been overnerfed in the feburary patch. 3 seconds is a joke. The synergy with blighter's boon is very good (5 to 10 might means 5 to 10 % of life force), if blighter's boon itself was viable.

- RISE: great for minion masters, that run death magic 1-1-1.

- CTTB: the best elite skill necro has.

 

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> Rune of the reaper is not meta, gives toughness which is useless, and only gives 1 second of chill, so no, why should I think about it?

It used to be good for hybrid/condi reaper. For example suffer and chilled to the bone, both did apply 6 bleeds with that rune per target. If chilling nova did trigger, it was even 9 bleeds. Currently it's up to 6 bleeds in pve and up to 3 bleeds in the competitive modes.

 

If (!) deathly chill will see a buff in the future, the rune will have a niche again.

 

There is also a synergy with chilling victory, as its ICD is separate per target hit. So the shouts trigger the rune, the rune triggers chilling victory, which triggers blighter's boon and you end up with a ton of might and life force... I played such a build before PoF and its powercreep, where onslaught became mandatory.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Al Masone.1274" said:

> Rune of the reaper is not meta, gives toughness which is useless, and only gives 1 second of chill, so no, why should I think about it?

 

Many of your suggestions are for additional sustain. There is only one rune that provides sustain when using shouts and Reaper can do a lot with chill proc's and expertise. No, Rune of the Reaper is not the straight buff to shouts you want but it is better than nothing if you want more sustain while still playing berserker or hybrid Reaper.

[Obtena.7952]

Conceptually ... a weird idea. Like somehow your shout is better because you fight stronger enemies?

[DeceiverX.8361]

Really unnecessary to be honest.

 

If you need easily-accessible PvE strength, play minions. Reaper's shouts are some of the best-designed utilities as a whole of any elite spec mechanics, and even better than a significant number of core-game ones. When you start adding functionality for the sake of power balance, the identity of the skills shift and the class design becomes coupled to certain facets, cornering developers to either leave something OP or basically pointless for a number of builds when it has to be reigned in.

 

If numbers are the problem, numbers are the answer. If design is the problem, design is the answer. Shouts being weak in PvE isn't really a design issue of the shouts themselves.

 

The only problems they have is that Reaper is so pigeon-holed in the elites it needs to take that the only ones which can actually be afforded in the valuable utility slot necro has are YSIM and Suffer, both of which are extremely balanced and very good if not superior options to pick depending on the build. And those general utilities are basically Spectral Armor and your choice of a mobility utility, be it SotL or Wurm. And on anything group-oriented, it's just wells, and always will be by their design.