jheryn.8390 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @bantern.7205 said: > Bruh. It's gambling. > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 With 100 pulls on a slot machine I can get a drink, at no additional cost with each. Of course this would entail many many trips to the bathroom, and if the drinks are alcoholic, probably the emergency room. Would slot machines not be considered gambling if the $5 machines returned a penny, or a cracker jack stlye sticker, with every pull? Edit: I agree that BLC are not exactly like vegas casino slot machines. They are, in my opinion, worse. Vegas casinos dont charge, generally, a fee to be allowed to then spend money gambling in their casino. People pay for this game and then need to gamble, often (but not always) with real money, to access some of the content. Vegas doesnt allow minors to gamble in their casinos. GW2 does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Serious question to all you guys. Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > Serious question to all you guys. > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. What is kinder and what is this surprise egg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > What is kinder and what is this surprise egg? I am in a state of shock/disbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > What is kinder and what is this surprise egg? Ok kinder is a chocolate company and they make a surprise egg. A hollow 2layer chocolate egg of milk and white chocolates. Inside is a capsule or a random toy. As far as I know there are hundreds and hundreds of different prizes. They are all cheap plastic doohikeys but my point is you pay for the egg wether your toy is a crappy puzzle or a sweet ass racecar or a cool gnome toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > > > What is kinder and what is this surprise egg? > > I am in a state of shock/disbelief. Sorry, just googled Kinder. First few results were a local bbq chain. Then I saw the kinder surprise egg. Its banned in the U.S. Sorry, didnt mean to disparage another country's cultural icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. > > Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. This. Particularly when the definition of the word gamble, according to oxford, cambridge, and merriam webster, all cover the current implementation of the BLC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseofGilead.8907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > Serious question to all you guys. > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for a looooong time. So, many ~~of the younger crowd~~ in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for about 20 years. So, many of the younger crowd in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. Hey, I am pushing 50 and had no idea. Were they ever legal here? According to google the law keeping them out has been on the books since 1938. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseofGilead.8907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for about 20 years. So, many of the younger crowd in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. > > Hey, I am pushing 50 and had no idea. Were they ever legal here? According to google the law keeping them out has been on the books since 1938. Yeah, it's longer than 20 years. I think was thinking of when they did a big recall of similar items in the 1990s when I first said 20 years. The Kinder Eggs have never really been allowed, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for a looooong time. So, many ~~of the younger crowd~~ in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. Wait. This a real thing?! I've been hearing this for years but thought it was a joke or something. Omg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseofGilead.8907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for a looooong time. So, many ~~of the younger crowd~~ in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. > > Wait. This a real thing?! > > I've been hearing this for years but thought it was a joke or something. Omg. Yup, it's a real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Sorry didn't mean to go off-topic. My point was yes it is gambling by any definition, but, again not forced in any way. So yes it is gambling. But no you don't have to. That's like saying tv commercials are unethical and exploitative because they force parents to buy stuff for their kids to stop them from nagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for a looooong time. So, many ~~of the younger crowd~~ in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. > > Wait. This a real thing?! > > I've been hearing this for years but thought it was a joke or something. Omg. No toys embedded in candy here. We are allowed to have prizes and such in the package but not actually embedded in the consumable content. I feel as if my childhood has been somehow lessened knowing, now that these existed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > > > > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for a looooong time. So, many ~~of the younger crowd~~ in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. > > > > Wait. This a real thing?! > > > > I've been hearing this for years but thought it was a joke or something. Omg. > > No toys embedded in candy here. > > We are allowed to have prizes and such in the package but not actually embedded in the consumable content. > > I feel as if my childhood has been somehow lessened knowing, now that these existed... ...would... You be able to get it in the mail? Does customs check for that? How much trouble are we talking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseofGilead.8907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > > @RoseofGilead.8907 said: > > > > > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said: > > > > > Serious question to all you guys. > > > > > > > > > > Do you you guys complain to Kinder when you get a toy in your surprise egg that you don't like? > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't matter if you buy one egg or a carton. You might still end up with those crappy jigsaw puzzle ones. > > > > > > > > Kinder eggs have been banned in the US for a looooong time. So, many ~~of the younger crowd~~ in the US won't know what those are. :p We finally get Kinder Joys next year, at least. > > > > > > Wait. This a real thing?! > > > > > > I've been hearing this for years but thought it was a joke or something. Omg. > > > > No toys embedded in candy here. > > > > We are allowed to have prizes and such in the package but not actually embedded in the consumable content. > > > > I feel as if my childhood has been somehow lessened knowing, now that these existed... > > ...would... You be able to get it in the mail? Does customs check for that? How much trouble are we talking? Customs does check. What can happen just depends on your luck, really. You can get charged for it, have the items withheld indefinitely, have the toy taken out of the candy and then resent, or the package could go unnoticed and make its way to the receiver without issue. Ok, done derailing the thread now. Sorry, everyone. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. > > Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. Actually, that is exactly what I am talking about. And apparently, except for Germany, it applies to every other country as well. If under the law it is not recognized as gambling, it is not. It is something else. You can call it what you want, but if it isn't legally gambling, there is no moral issue. I still don't understand why people cannot see that if they choose to purchase keys they whine about what they get. It isn't that Anet is being immoral it's that people have sour grapes because they didn't get the farming node, permanent makeover contract, and weapon skin in one roll that they "deserve." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > > > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > > > > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. > > > > Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. > > This. > > Particularly when the definition of the word gamble, according to oxford, cambridge, and merriam webster, all cover the current implementation of the BLC. Yes and I explained why those definitions do not work, but since you apparently know more than 99.99% of all legal systems in the world, believe what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedek.8932 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Wait, wait, wait..w-w-wait! I have gambled once with 10 chests because I wanted Mini Rox (she is cute AF). And I got her with the like 4th or 5th. Does that mean I had luck? Me? On RNG gambling?? I had no idea! Excelsior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einlanzer.1627 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > > > > > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > > > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > > > > > > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. > > > > > > Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. > > > > This. > > > > Particularly when the definition of the word gamble, according to oxford, cambridge, and merriam webster, all cover the current implementation of the BLC. > > Yes and I explained why those definitions do not work, but since you apparently know more than 99.99% of all legal systems in the world, believe what you want. That doesn't even make sense. Legal systems don't work like science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 > @jheryn.8390 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > > > > > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > > > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > > > > > > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. > > > > > > Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. > > > > This. > > > > Particularly when the definition of the word gamble, according to oxford, cambridge, and merriam webster, all cover the current implementation of the BLC. > > Yes and I explained why those definitions do not work, but since you apparently know more than 99.99% of all legal systems in the world, believe what you want. Being legal does not mean that it is not gambling. As far as I know, and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, the legislatures of the various English speaking nations of the world do not create nor edit the major English dictionaries. Nor do you. The words gamble and gambling have definitions, no, "explanation," from you, random internet person, overrides them. Feel free to demonstrate why you personally are the arbiter for the meanings of words in the English language, are more of an authority than every single major dictionary in the world, and then you can expound upon how you explained that the dictionaries are wrong. Until then, English is a shared language and we all have access to the same reference sources. Your personal definition(s) do not trump the shared definitions as referenced in all of the major dictionaries. By the way, are you sure about that 99.99%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheryn.8390 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > > @Einlanzer.1627 said: > > > > > @jheryn.8390 said: > > > > > > @bantern.7205 said: > > > > > > > > > > > Bruh. It's gambling. > > > > > > If Gems aren't money, then what you spend them on isn't a purchased product. Therefore, by their own legal definition, spending money on BLK to open BLC wouldn't be considered gambling, because no money is involved. JUST BECAUSE IT'S LEGAL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S MORAL. It's still definitely gambling by common sense standards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Legally it is not gambling just as I have said and just as you have written above. If it were truly gambling, they would be shut down. Not. Gambling. You may look at it that way, but those of us who deal with business law and finance do not. The real common sense is not doing anything illegal. Call it what you want. In the eyes of the law, it is not gambling. > > > > > > > > > > As far as morality, in this case it is subjective. I accept how you and some others see it, but some like me do not. Those kinds of perceptions are personal. > > > > > > > > Dude, the law is arbitrary. We aren't talking about what is and isn't gambling from the perspective of the American legal system. > > > > > > This. > > > > > > Particularly when the definition of the word gamble, according to oxford, cambridge, and merriam webster, all cover the current implementation of the BLC. > > > > Yes and I explained why those definitions do not work, but since you apparently know more than 99.99% of all legal systems in the world, believe what you want. > > Being legal does not mean that it is not gambling. As far as I know, and feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, the legislatures of the various English speaking nations of the world do not create nor edit the major English dictionaries. Nor do you. The words gamble and gambling have definitions, no, "explanation," from you, random internet person, overrides them. Feel free to demonstrate why you personally are the arbiter for the meanings of words in the English language, are more of an authority than every single major dictionary in the world, and then you can expound upon how you explained that the dictionaries are wrong. Until then, English is a shared language and we all have access to the same reference sources. Your personal definition(s) do not trump the shared definitions as referenced in all of the major dictionaries. > > By the way, are you sure about that 99.99%? > Actually it really does mean that it does in this case. If it were truly gambling in the eyes of the law, GW2 would be shut down or forced to remove chests from the game. So I really, honestly and truly do not care what the dictionary calls gambling or how you want to make opening BL Chests fit into that mold. It really, just doesn't matter what you think about whether it is gambling or not because it exists in the game and is legal. So whatever you or anyone else thinks. It. Does. Not. Matter. It is not unethical, immoral, wrong, or any other bad word you want to attach to it. It's legal. In the eyes of the law, which I care about, it is not gambling. The end. As far as the 99.99% number, I was indeed not being exactly correct. BL Chests are legal in every country GW2 exists except possibly Germany. So call it gambling if you want. If that gives you self-satisfaction, then good for you. I don't care if you don't get it. I'm done and am done looking at any further replies so argue away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 > @PopeUrban.2578 said: > I applaud your decision to refuse to continue to buy lottery tickets that don't actually pay you in anything you own. If more people stopped doing it, maybe they'd review this exploitative monetization model and move a step further toward ethical business practices that guarantee value for money spent rather than hiding the overblown cost of rewards behind low single key costs. Those new third slot items exist only to further push people that would not otherwise gamble by attaching a "limited time only" element to the rewards while simultaneously making it more expensive to get anything that isn't an overpriced "collection" mini > > I reccommend using only the rare dropped key or weekly farmed keys to open these boxes rather than spending further money on a company heckbent on making the majority of its most compelling rewards contingent on someone paying more than the list price for the game. This post mirrors my position. Don'y buy keys by spending RL cash, don;t buy them by spending gold. I don't even farm the keys, so for me I only open chests with the rare dropped key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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