TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Yes, Berzerker Engineer with 18k hp. And a Fresh Air ele using the air attunement the *least* and bursting with fire. What the hell are you on about? Oh stop this, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point. You don't have any kind of knowledge about this game, none. Before trait rework, trailines provided additional stats like Vitality/Power/Precision/Toughness, dependant on what you've picked, so you could have picked "dps" amulet and still have decent defensive stats from traitlines bonuses... This video is from 2013, which trait system was like what I've wrote. Another thing showing you have 0 knowledge, Fire Attument have "harder hitting" skills but slower than Air Attument, which is instant burst if it comes to Scepter. Dragon's Tooth and Phoenix can hit hard, if it hits, which is much harder than what current classes can do without any tells... Last thing, I've looked into my screenshots, **mostly from WvW** and saw like a few that showed hits for like 6-10k (Eviscerate, Backstab, Killshot, even found Warriors dodge hitting for 3.8k, etc.) and then compared it to screens after HoT release and hits were like 10k from DH traps, Vault for 18k, Gunflame for over 15k, Malicious BS for over 15k, CoR for over 18k, 22k/tick Bleed from Reaper, 8k from Full Counter, 10k Burn ticks and many others and here you are going with lies "damage is lower than it was in core". Ofc, these are all examples from WvW with additional stats and all, but you really need to be blind to not see that this HoT and PoF powercreep didn't affect PvP in bad way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > Got hit with an 8k backstab just last night. Admittedly it doesn't usually hit that hard, but it is in no way "maxed out" at 5k. Was that me in the Arena? I can hit 10k but it's running core with every damage boost I could fit and it's trash in actual matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. > > LOL you link a video of a zerker sceptre FA ele as an example of celestial d/d ele damage. Okay mate. > > Yes, I'm quite happy with my statement on damage. I well remember dueling Cele back then, duels would go on for 2+ minutes and eventually Cele would win with superior sustain and constant chip burn stacks, not by booming for 8k. > > EDIT: I see the confusion. Most people where saying "Cele" mean "celestial d/d elementalist". But you've taken it to mean literally any build with celestial amulet. Ehhhhh, fine, you do you. But it's strange, given that your original comment was specifically about celestial Elementalist, and so was the comment I replied to. Do try and pay attention. D/D was biggest post-trait changes, were talking pre-trait changes. So I picked a random one I could find, and around that time, Scepter was more popular. Though feel free to find D/D Cele Ele on youtube, spoilers: They still kill people fast. Just look at [this]( ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > Got hit with an 8k backstab just last night. Admittedly it doesn't usually hit that hard, but it is in no way "maxed out" at 5k. Oh that can happen if they steal like 25 might stacks and you have 25 vuln stacks. But that video I showed would then hit for over 10k. Were talking just naked backstab, no might stacking, no vuln stacking. That is maxed out at 5k, and usually below that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > No it would completely eclipse todays meta roster. It would've had trouble pre-patch, and probably would've had trouble in the early days of HoT, but otherwise it would've been right up there. The current state of the game is weaker than all of HoT, all of PoF, and all of pre-HoT. We have never had damage this low. > Watched it, I don't know what are you on but I want the same kitten , this would been ran over by most classes currently like a train, just because of the mechanics. > I did say it was a suboptimal build, but now imagine that same thief with a proper trickery build, proper thief utilities, and proper thief traits. Basically, think of current thief with around twice as much damage, more survivability, better CC and better utility. Doesnt quite sound like it would be "run over by most classes". Hell I'd go as far as to say that no class would beat it in a 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Yes, Berzerker Engineer with 18k hp. And a Fresh Air ele using the air attunement the *least* and bursting with fire. What the hell are you on about? > Oh stop this, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point. You don't have any kind of knowledge about this game, none. Just because they shut down the cinemas doesnt mean you have to start projecting yourself. > Before trait rework, trailines provided additional stats like Vitality/Power/Precision/Toughness, dependant on what you've picked, so you could have picked "dps" amulet and still have decent defensive stats from traitlines bonuses... This video is from 2013, which trait system was like what I've wrote. Ok, 2 questions. First, do you know which Engineer traitline gave Vitality? Second, do you know what that Engineers build was? Thats a rhetorical question. You dont. See, the engineer traitline that gave Vitality was Alchemy. And do you know what Alchemys very first minor trait, the one you *literally* couldnt avoid, was? Automatic consumption of Elixir B when you hit 75% hp. Now watch the video again. Notice something? He hits 75% hp, but there is no Elixir B anywhere to be seen. So congratulations. You just showed that you have no knowledge of the game. So yeah,. that vitality is coming from somewhere, and it aint the traitline. > Another thing showing you have 0 knowledge, Fire Attument have "harder hitting" skills but slower than Air Attument, which is instant burst if it comes to Scepter. Dragon's Tooth and Phoenix can hit hard, if it hits, which is much harder than what current classes can do without any tells... And that is relevant how, exactly? The point is still that the "FA" ele bursted with fire attunement, and largely didnt use Air. Mostly used it to disengage. > Last thing, I've looked into my screenshots, **mostly from WvW** and saw like a few that showed hits for like 6-10k (Eviscerate, Backstab, Killshot, even found Warriors dodge hitting for 3.8k, etc.) and then compared it to screens after HoT release and hits were like 10k from DH traps, Vault for 18k, Gunflame for over 15k, Malicious BS for over 15k, CoR for over 18k, 22k/tick Bleed from Reaper, 8k from Full Counter, 10k Burn ticks and many others and here you are going with lies "damage is lower than it was in core". I never said HoT damage was lower than core though? I said damage right *now* is lower than core. And uh, yeah, you kinda showed that yourself. Whoops? > Ofc, these are all examples from WvW with additional stats and all, but you really need to be blind to not see that this HoT and PoF powercreep didn't affect PvP in bad way. > You could make that argument. I would disagree, at least with HoT and PoFs later stages, but its an argument you can make. But here is the thing: Now were in severe *powerdip*. And that too is affecting PvP in a negative way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > Can't argue about delusion ... No, you cant argue against numbers you know are right. Thief back then did *way* more damage than thief does now. Its not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > > > Got hit with an 8k backstab just last night. Admittedly it doesn't usually hit that hard, but it is in no way "maxed out" at 5k. > > Was that me in the Arena? I can hit 10k but it's running core with every damage boost I could fit and it's trash in actual matches. No, it was Faeleth, in a ranked match. I remember it well, 'cos, being a guardian with 11k hp, it was basically a one-shot when you include supplementary damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > > > > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. > > > > LOL you link a video of a zerker sceptre FA ele as an example of celestial d/d ele damage. Okay mate. > > > > Yes, I'm quite happy with my statement on damage. I well remember dueling Cele back then, duels would go on for 2+ minutes and eventually Cele would win with superior sustain and constant chip burn stacks, not by booming for 8k. > > > > EDIT: I see the confusion. Most people where saying "Cele" mean "celestial d/d elementalist". But you've taken it to mean literally any build with celestial amulet. Ehhhhh, fine, you do you. But it's strange, given that your original comment was specifically about celestial Elementalist, and so was the comment I replied to. Do try and pay attention. > > D/D was biggest post-trait changes, were talking pre-trait changes. So I picked a random one I could find, and around that time, Scepter was more popular. Though feel free to find D/D Cele Ele on youtube, spoilers: They still kill people fast. Just look at [this]( ). That's still not celestial. Can tell from the signet of restoration ticks and the bleed/burn ticks, and also the low HP. Actual CEle back then would have 18k hp. Why do you keep digging this hole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > > > > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. > > > > LOL you link a video of a zerker sceptre FA ele as an example of celestial d/d ele damage. Okay mate. > > > > Yes, I'm quite happy with my statement on damage. I well remember dueling Cele back then, duels would go on for 2+ minutes and eventually Cele would win with superior sustain and constant chip burn stacks, not by booming for 8k. > > > > EDIT: I see the confusion. Most people where saying "Cele" mean "celestial d/d elementalist". But you've taken it to mean literally any build with celestial amulet. Ehhhhh, fine, you do you. But it's strange, given that your original comment was specifically about celestial Elementalist, and so was the comment I replied to. Do try and pay attention. > > D/D was biggest post-trait changes, were talking pre-trait changes. So I picked a random one I could find, and around that time, Scepter was more popular. Though feel free to find D/D Cele Ele on youtube, spoilers: They still kill people fast. Just look at [this]( ). Since you seem to be confused on this subject, here: An actual CEle build. Observe how no hits over 2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > > > > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > > > > > > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. > > > > > > LOL you link a video of a zerker sceptre FA ele as an example of celestial d/d ele damage. Okay mate. > > > > > > Yes, I'm quite happy with my statement on damage. I well remember dueling Cele back then, duels would go on for 2+ minutes and eventually Cele would win with superior sustain and constant chip burn stacks, not by booming for 8k. > > > > > > EDIT: I see the confusion. Most people where saying "Cele" mean "celestial d/d elementalist". But you've taken it to mean literally any build with celestial amulet. Ehhhhh, fine, you do you. But it's strange, given that your original comment was specifically about celestial Elementalist, and so was the comment I replied to. Do try and pay attention. > > > > D/D was biggest post-trait changes, were talking pre-trait changes. So I picked a random one I could find, and around that time, Scepter was more popular. Though feel free to find D/D Cele Ele on youtube, spoilers: They still kill people fast. Just look at [this]( ). > > That's still not celestial. Can tell from the signet of restoration ticks and the bleed/burn ticks. > > Why do you keep digging this hole? Oh, ok, doing the math he does have extra condi damage somewhere, but it does seem a bit lower than celestial amulet? Fair enough, youre right for once. Hm. Seems I sadly cant actually find any Cele Ele from back then, even Phantaram hasnt uploaded videos. Shame, cant show that the damage was a lot higher than people claimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > Hell, pre-HoT Cele Ele wouldve wiped the floor with a lot of builds last year > > > > > > XD Yea, no. Even if it was in it's prime days, it wouldn't even come close to even todays meta roster. Great joke though, I almost cried from laughter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Old Cele, if you just stood still, would still take 10+ seconds to kill you. > > > > > > > > > > Good luck standing still for 10 seconds with a Holo or Renegade about. > > > > > > > > [This]( ) Cele Ele, facing a Cele Engineer, dealing around 7-8k damage in a single second, "would take 10+ seconds to kill you"? Are you *sure* you want to go with that argument? Because there is still time to take it back. Cele Ele could kill even other Celestial builds within seconds. If they failed their defenses. While having really good defenses and sustain of its own. Holo would stand no chance. > > > > > > LOL you link a video of a zerker sceptre FA ele as an example of celestial d/d ele damage. Okay mate. > > > > > > Yes, I'm quite happy with my statement on damage. I well remember dueling Cele back then, duels would go on for 2+ minutes and eventually Cele would win with superior sustain and constant chip burn stacks, not by booming for 8k. > > > > > > EDIT: I see the confusion. Most people where saying "Cele" mean "celestial d/d elementalist". But you've taken it to mean literally any build with celestial amulet. Ehhhhh, fine, you do you. But it's strange, given that your original comment was specifically about celestial Elementalist, and so was the comment I replied to. Do try and pay attention. > > > > D/D was biggest post-trait changes, were talking pre-trait changes. So I picked a random one I could find, and around that time, Scepter was more popular. Though feel free to find D/D Cele Ele on youtube, spoilers: They still kill people fast. Just look at [this]( ). > > Since you seem to be confused on this subject, here: > > > > An actual CEle build. Observe how no hits over 2k. Is your logic seriously ... "Individual hits only hit for 2k, so the damage must be low!!1!1!"? Just after grenades, where the individual one doesnt hit for over 2k, got nerfed? And the same video also shows the Cele Ele killing the target golem heavy (who has 22k health, which is well above what most builds had, and 2600 armour, which likewise was way more than most builds had) in 10 seconds. A regular builds folds faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > sniff sniff staph bully me You keep digging your own grave with your delusions, keep going. Ele uses burst Scepter/Dagger build that can do wombo-combos with fire skills as well, though FA focuses more on rotating around Air Attument mostly with rest being just a fillers/opportunities. I'm pretty sure he used Berserker amulet as well in that pepe video you've linked. Another thing, I'm fully aware what each traitline was giving and you're correct, he didn't use alchemy. He used: PvP Berserker's Amulet 798 Power 569 Precision 284 Vitality 15% Critical Damage Berserker's Jewel 125 Power 75 Precision 5% Critical Damage 45 Vitality Traits were: 20 Explosives(IV,X), 20 Firearms(VI, IX) and 30 Tools(VI, II, XI) We're not really in any powerdip, you simply got used to powercreep and unbalanced kitten even in Core. Some classes were doing too high damage in core days as well, but they've been nerfed a bit after like 8 years in February this year. You simply think that damage like BS from teef that was doing 8k+ dmg from core days was "balanced" and then you compare it to todays 6k from BS and think teef is "underpowered", which in reality is incorrect, because in core days that damage was already too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmbraNoctis.1907 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > > > Can't argue about delusion ... > > No, you cant argue against numbers you know are right. Thief back then did *way* more damage than thief does now. Its not even close. Thieves didn't had way more dmg, they were **building** for more dmg. Big difference. Pick up crit strikes (and nowadays you don't even have to give up trickery unlike that poor fella in your vid), boom, 6k backstabs. Same dmg, more survivability/utility. And still worse than meta thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > sniff sniff staph bully me > You keep digging your own grave with your delusions, keep going. Ele uses burst Scepter/Dagger build that can do wombo-combos with fire skills as well, though FA focuses more on rotating around Air Attument mostly with rest being just a fillers/opportunities. And yet FA wasnt what he used. > I'm pretty sure he used Berserker amulet as well in that pepe video you've linked. > Another thing, I'm fully aware what each traitline was giving and you're correct, he didn't use alchemy. > He used: > PvP Berserker's Amulet > 798 Power > 569 Precision > 284 Vitality > 15% Critical Damage > Berserker's Jewel > 125 Power > 75 Precision > 5% Critical Damage > 45 Vitality > Traits were: 20 Explosives(IV,X), 20 Firearms(VI, IX) and 30 Tools(VI, II, XI) Ah, so it seems you are correct. Fair enough. > We're not really in any powerdip, you simply got used to powercreep and unbalanced kitten even in Core. We are in powerdip. This is not debatable *at all*. You may argue whether or not powerdip is bad for the game, but there is no question that we are in powerdip mode. And you kinda even admit so yourself, because you apparently blame classes being too strong in *core* on ... "powercreep". Powercreep from *what* exactly? A game cant *start* with "powercreep", powercreep is literally defined as a constant increase in power *from the starting point*. > Some classes were doing too high damage in core days as well, but they've been nerfed a bit after like 8 years in February this year. *Every* class was doing more damage. This wasnt a case of outliers, this was a case of damage as a whole being higher. So unless youre arguing that core was "imbalanced" because damage was too high compared to now (Which obviously makes no sense), you have to concede that were just in major powerdip. > You simply think that damage like BS from teef that was doing 8k+ dmg from core days was "balanced" and then you compare it to todays 6k from BS and think teef is "underpowered", which in reality is incorrect, because in core days that damage was already too much. 8k+ perhaps not. But 6k+? Yeah it was balanced actually. Why do you think it wasnt nerfed? And its not like it was just theif doing more damage. *Everyone* was doing more damage. Thats precisely my point. Thief isnt underpowered right now. Quite the opposite, its very good. But that in itself is a damning indictment. If a class can now do half as much damage as it used, and actually be *stronger* than back then, something has gone horribly wrong. But yeah, if you want to argue that every single class being worse than core days isnt "powerdip", then you might just want to look up what powerdip means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even builds that are currently bad are still way stronger than meta builds before pre-HoT trait rework. The powercreep in this game has been insane and it didn't do any good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not even *close*. The best builds right now are actually weaker than the worst builds back then. Like, thief from back then would actually destroy everyone in a 1v1 right now, and it had losing matchups back then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. You basically only had access to 2 (+ 1 adept trait) instead of 3 full traitlines and the vast majority of traits were much weaker. You also had lower base stats as well as less stats from gear. There is no way a few stronger skills can make up for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > And you could mix and match the traits more easily. A lot of traits were actually *stronger* too. Oh and while stats were lower, they were lower *across the board*. Offensive *and* defensive. We'd compare them with the same gear. And no, the stronger skills more than make up for it. Just take a look at [this]( ). Notice how, even though all stats were lower (including health), the Theif hits a lot *harder* than right now? And that wasnt even an optimal build (Sadly I had to work with what Ive got since there are barely any videos from around that time that arent WvW). An optimal build would run circles around that. And that is already just current thief, but *way* stronger. > > > > > > > > > > Lol no, the thief shown in the vid hits about as hard as thieves do right now, but has way way less survivability. > > > > > > > > You're impressively wrong in every single point you just made. Lets start. [This]( ) is the damage his backstab does against a squishy. Keep in mind, even the raw number of 6315 is a lot higher than thief can currently hit (thief currently maxes out at 5k, usually 4.5k). But remember how you said "stats were lower"? That *includes* HP. That 6315 did a lot more damage relative to the targets HP than 6315 would do right now. So no, he hits *way* harder. As for survivability, well, lets start with his HP. This build is suboptimal, so it has a lot more HP than normal. Currently the standard thief has 15417 hp. But again, remember, *stats were lower*. That 14k hp is actually a lot more effective hp than the current 15417. Well what about his defenses? Withdraw has a *15* second cooldown. 10 seconds lower. He has a passive 320 healing in stealth (back then people hadnt yet figured out stealth wasnt so good in-combat), but also immunity to crits and 25% damage reduction. Cheaper, more accessible blinds. Better mug. And just better defensive stats. He has *way* more survivability. This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief. > > > > > > Can't argue about delusion ... > > > > No, you cant argue against numbers you know are right. Thief back then did *way* more damage than thief does now. Its not even close. > > Thieves didn't had way more dmg, they were **building** for more dmg. Big difference. Pick up crit strikes (and nowadays you don't even have to give up trickery unlike that poor fella in your vid), boom, 6k backstabs. Same dmg, more survivability/utility. And still worse than meta thief. :lol: Wait, youre serious? Ok let, me explain why youre wrong on *multiple* levels. First, they werent building for more damage. Right now, thief is using 3 seperate damage traitlines. That thief I showed however? One of the traitlines he picked was *old Shadow Arts*. A traitline that provided 0 damage. If he wanted to build for damage, he wouldve slapped on Trickery for that sweet 15%. Or Crit Strikes. So your excuse of "just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either. It gets worse though. Because remember, *stats were lower*. 6k damage back then is worth a lot more than 6k damage now. So its not even a fair comparision there. So in actuality, if you compared a crit strikes thief now to thief back then, it would be "Way less damage, way less survivability, way less utility, and worse CC". Yeah doesnt sound great, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > > People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW....... How did you arrive at "4" ? Warrior, Guard, Renegade, Engi, Thief, Necro all well represented. Ele and Ranger rarer but still represented. Only mesmer nowhere to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > > > > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > > > > People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW....... > > How did you arrive at "4" ? > > Warrior, Guard, Renegade, Engi, Thief, Necro all well represented. Ele and Ranger rarer but still represented. Only mesmer nowhere to be seen. The clip he links shows 2 teams of Revenant, Warrior, Thief and Engineer. No one else is anywhere to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > > > > > > People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW....... > > > > How did you arrive at "4" ? > > > > Warrior, Guard, Renegade, Engi, Thief, Necro all well represented. Ele and Ranger rarer but still represented. Only mesmer nowhere to be seen. > > The clip he links shows 2 teams of Revenant, Warrior, Thief and Engineer. No one else is anywhere to be seen. Really? Because it appears to be a nearly 2 hour long video containing multiple teams, and at some point or other every class other than mesmer. I didn't think it was possible to be bad at watching youtube, but now I'm having doubts. I don't think cherry-picking 1 match out of a tournament is really very good evidence. And even if it were the entire tournament, you just need to play a few games in ranked to see guard, necro, ranger, ele, just a frequently as you do those others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > > > > > > > > People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW....... > > > > > > How did you arrive at "4" ? > > > > > > Warrior, Guard, Renegade, Engi, Thief, Necro all well represented. Ele and Ranger rarer but still represented. Only mesmer nowhere to be seen. > > > > The clip he links shows 2 teams of Revenant, Warrior, Thief and Engineer. No one else is anywhere to be seen. > > Really? Because it appears to be a nearly 2 hour long video containing multiple teams, and at some point or other every class other than mesmer. > Yes. Thats how timestamps work. Did you never see one? > I don't think cherry-picking 1 match out of a tournament is really very good evidence. > I mean, that "cherry-picked" match is the semi-finals. Most of the bad teams are weeded out. Yeah thats usually where you look. Especially since you can join the tournament even with a team thats not very good. If you look at finals its not much better. 1 token DH, otherwise identical teams. Even if you look beyond that, all you can add is another team with a token DH and Druid. No Mesmer, no Necro, no Elementalist. > I didn't think it was possible to be bad at watching youtube, but now I'm having doubts. Says the guy who doesnt understand timestamps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > > > > > > > > > > People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW....... > > > > > > > > How did you arrive at "4" ? > > > > > > > > Warrior, Guard, Renegade, Engi, Thief, Necro all well represented. Ele and Ranger rarer but still represented. Only mesmer nowhere to be seen. > > > > > > The clip he links shows 2 teams of Revenant, Warrior, Thief and Engineer. No one else is anywhere to be seen. > > > > Really? Because it appears to be a nearly 2 hour long video containing multiple teams, and at some point or other every class other than mesmer. > > > > Yes. Thats how timestamps work. Did you never see one? > > > I don't think cherry-picking 1 match out of a tournament is really very good evidence. > > > > I mean, that "cherry-picked" match is the semi-finals. Most of the bad teams are weeded out. Yeah thats usually where you look. Especially since you can join the tournament even with a team thats not very good. If you look at finals its not much better. 1 token DH, otherwise identical teams. Even if you look beyond that, all you can add is another team with a token DH and Druid. No Mesmer, no Necro, no Elementalist. > > > I didn't think it was possible to be bad at watching youtube, but now I'm having doubts. > > Says the guy who doesnt understand timestamps? There is no timestamp. You can see this by quoting the post, and the hyperlink is just to the video. "https://www. youtube.com/watch?v=nuvNy2yjj10" Which is why, at least on my screen, it started playing at the beginning. Maybe you had already been watching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"dani.5680" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others! > > > > > > > > so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS! > > > > > > > > I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dude, you must be new to gw2. > > > > > > > Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again. > > > > > > > > > > > > The OP is way right...and you are way wrong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP? > > > > > > > > > > > > People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW....... > > > > > > > > > > How did you arrive at "4" ? > > > > > > > > > > Warrior, Guard, Renegade, Engi, Thief, Necro all well represented. Ele and Ranger rarer but still represented. Only mesmer nowhere to be seen. > > > > > > > > The clip he links shows 2 teams of Revenant, Warrior, Thief and Engineer. No one else is anywhere to be seen. > > > > > > Really? Because it appears to be a nearly 2 hour long video containing multiple teams, and at some point or other every class other than mesmer. > > > > > > > Yes. Thats how timestamps work. Did you never see one? > > > > > I don't think cherry-picking 1 match out of a tournament is really very good evidence. > > > > > > > I mean, that "cherry-picked" match is the semi-finals. Most of the bad teams are weeded out. Yeah thats usually where you look. Especially since you can join the tournament even with a team thats not very good. If you look at finals its not much better. 1 token DH, otherwise identical teams. Even if you look beyond that, all you can add is another team with a token DH and Druid. No Mesmer, no Necro, no Elementalist. > > > > > I didn't think it was possible to be bad at watching youtube, but now I'm having doubts. > > > > Says the guy who doesnt understand timestamps? > > There is no timestamp. You can see this by quoting the post, and the hyperlink is just to the video. > > "https://www. youtube.com/watch?v=nuvNy2yjj10" > > Which is why, at least on my screen, it started playing at the beginning. Maybe you had already been watching? Oh. Thats odd, i hadnt watched the video. Fair enough, its not timestamped. Though it doesnt really change that he has a point. You see a whole bunch of the same team, and occasionally a token DH or Druid. Thats it. No Mesmers, no Eles, no Necros. And even Druid is only picked once. Thats pretty terrible class representation. The only times I can think of when its been that bad was Cele meta (Ele, Engineer, Thief and Warior I believe), one of the HoT metas, and like early PoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UmbraNoctis.1907 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. Also ... "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. "_Trickery for that sweet 15%_" Trickery didn't not had a dmg modifier back then "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Where did that thief get fury from if not from CS? 3. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said: > SA, trickery and dd aren't really dmg traitlines just because there is a little bit of dmg baked into them. DA and crit strikes are the main dmg traitlines. Theyre damage traitlines (well, more accurately SA and DD. Trickery is just mandatory) because you pick them for damage. You dont pick DA, because DD gives more damage. You dont pick Crit Strikes, because SA gives more reliable damage (seriously its so easy to lose all crit strikes modifiers). Those are the reasons crit strikes was *never* picked, and DA became replaced by DD respectively. > Also ... > "_old Shadow Arts. A traitline that provided 0 damage_" It provided might and might = dmg. Oh yeah, it gave *1* stack of might when you enter stealth. Thats huge. Well, no, its practically nothing, but go ahead. > "_Trickery for that sweet 15%_" Trickery didn't not had a dmg modifier back then *??????* Lead Attacks was a Trickery Minor Trait since day 1 of the game. It used to increase damage by 1% per initiative you had rather than spent, but it was still there. Also Flanking Strikes used to be Trickery, so its up to 20% actually. Seriously, I dont get how you could get *this one* wrong. > "_just build crit strikes now" doesnt work, because that thief didnt use crit strikes either_" 1. you can take an additional traitline now that you couldn't back then. so you could take whatever you were running back then + crit strikes in addition, 2. Take DA instead of CS and you can still get 6k+ backstabs as of now on SA core thief. There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system. > Uh, no. You can get a full traitline from what you used to pick as a 10 point one, but you dont get a full extra one. Or you did a 20/20/30 split. That one was popular too. Anyway, no, you dont just "get to add CS now". So thats off. "Take DA instead of CS" ... you dont use CS, A, and B, no you cant get 6k+ backstabs with DA. Youre lucky to get 5k ones with DA. And what exactly are you gonna replace? DD? Then you do *less* damage. Trickery? Its *mandatory*. SA? Well then you do slightly more damage against squishies, less against those who have armour, and lose utility. Yeah doesnt work. "There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry. > Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg). You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is *lower* nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been *more* vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Anet: Deletes distortion from Chrono Also Anet: "Hmm, Chrono has been struggling lately because it has poor defense/sustain. We're not sure how to fix it" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now