What is more tanky? Vitality/Toughness questions...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > Here is another way to look at it. If you have enough toughness to negate 66% of a burst's damage while having health left over to keep fighting then your increased toughness will also reduce your opponent's weaker attacks. If you have enough health to survive a burst, but have paper armor you'll still die to the follow up auto attack. Since we have conditions to deal with, which cut through armor, you need vitality as well as toughness.

> >

> > Things like Protection, damage reduction, condition duration reduction, condition damage reduction, regen, health gain effects all go into what your effective HP is.

> >

> > This is one reason why things like Trailblazer stats are so effective. They give a high amount of effective health, and for condi builds you really only care about condition damage to maximize damage per tick since they will never tick very long.

> >

> > So depending on your build, if it is power or condi, you should take that into account. If you are truly trying to get tanky AF, then roll either Wanderer's with traits and runes to make up for you lost miss chance and critical damage, or roll Trailblazer's and take traits, runes, and sigils to get cover condis, condi duration, or more defenses.

>

> That's good info too, thank you! Yes, in large scale WvW fights, burst is something to look out for, so toughness is definitely a thing to consider over health.

> And yeah, trailblazer is pretty good for condi because condi doesn't lose that much if it doens't have power or ferocity.

> I'm already running Wanderer's, but i'm thinking of Minstrel's because i wanna try being full support. Wanderer's has power, and someone said somewhere, power alone is not enough for damage. That's why power builds need precision and ferocity as well, while condi builds only really need condition damage and duration. So Wanderer's is kind of a jack of all trades on me lol. It's power, toughness, boon duration... So i'm tanky, but i can kind of deal damage and kind of be support, while minstrels would be more centered around just one thing. tanky support.

 

Not so fast! This all depends on your class and whether or not it grants you extra ferocity and crit chance! Power can be very valuable even with out Precision and Ferocity from gear prefixes.

 

A Reaper has ZERO need for Ferocity or Precision on gear because it has traits that crit cap it and grant +300 Ferocity.

 

A Warrior for instance can have 860 Ferocity just from traits. Has 50% crit chance versus CCd enemies, and 100% chance to crit on burst via traits.

 

When I am build crafting one of the first things I think about is stat allocation. Do I have enough stats from traits to hit certain thresholds? Do I really need a certain stat from gear for my dps then?

 

For example I ran a warrior Sentinel Build in WvW post Feb. nerf patch that had ~50% crit chance, ~200% crit damage, and ~3800 power after traits, boons, food, and sigils along with 30k HP and 2808 Armor.

 

 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

one quick further thought; toughness alone and armor does not protect your dmg income from beeing cc'd (bc that ignores these two stats), and u need concentration for lesser durance of conditions. therefore u can never view stats out of context.

 

as single offensemode char that tries to do zergtagging it does make not a huge difference how much bulk u run. stats just balance that stuff that your skillset and chosen abilities can not provide so yeah.

 

i'd never trust too much in your boons, if more people knew how to play scrouge or slack less at playing chrono + spellbreaker, you'd run 90% of the battles without boons. scrouge corrupts can instadown several overconfident players at once. my fav victim are guardians tho, bc they really often use a ton of boons and try to re-apply them quickly once u corrupt them - thing is u can corrupt faster than they can re-apply xD

[Veprovina.4876]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > Here is another way to look at it. If you have enough toughness to negate 66% of a burst's damage while having health left over to keep fighting then your increased toughness will also reduce your opponent's weaker attacks. If you have enough health to survive a burst, but have paper armor you'll still die to the follow up auto attack. Since we have conditions to deal with, which cut through armor, you need vitality as well as toughness.

> > >

> > > Things like Protection, damage reduction, condition duration reduction, condition damage reduction, regen, health gain effects all go into what your effective HP is.

> > >

> > > This is one reason why things like Trailblazer stats are so effective. They give a high amount of effective health, and for condi builds you really only care about condition damage to maximize damage per tick since they will never tick very long.

> > >

> > > So depending on your build, if it is power or condi, you should take that into account. If you are truly trying to get tanky AF, then roll either Wanderer's with traits and runes to make up for you lost miss chance and critical damage, or roll Trailblazer's and take traits, runes, and sigils to get cover condis, condi duration, or more defenses.

> >

> > That's good info too, thank you! Yes, in large scale WvW fights, burst is something to look out for, so toughness is definitely a thing to consider over health.

> > And yeah, trailblazer is pretty good for condi because condi doesn't lose that much if it doens't have power or ferocity.

> > I'm already running Wanderer's, but i'm thinking of Minstrel's because i wanna try being full support. Wanderer's has power, and someone said somewhere, power alone is not enough for damage. That's why power builds need precision and ferocity as well, while condi builds only really need condition damage and duration. So Wanderer's is kind of a jack of all trades on me lol. It's power, toughness, boon duration... So i'm tanky, but i can kind of deal damage and kind of be support, while minstrels would be more centered around just one thing. tanky support.

>

> Not so fast! This all depends on your class and whether or not it grants you extra ferocity and crit chance! Power can be very valuable even with out Precision and Ferocity from gear prefixes.

>

> A Reaper has ZERO need for Ferocity or Precision on gear because it has traits that crit cap it and grant +300 Ferocity.

>

> A Warrior for instance can have 860 Ferocity just from traits. Has 50% crit chance versus CCd enemies, and 100% chance to crit on burst via traits.

>

> When I am build crafting one of the first things I think about is stat allocation. Do I have enough stats from traits to hit certain thresholds? Do I really need a certain stat from gear for my dps then?

>

> For example I ran a warrior Sentinel Build in WvW post Feb. nerf patch that had ~50% crit chance, ~200% crit damage, and ~3800 power after traits, boons, food, and sigils along with 30k HP and 2808 Armor.

>

>

 

Power alone isn't that valuable on a Mesmer lol, most of their traits proc something IF you have precision and ferocity, and any ferocity you gain isn't that much like on other classes, you can't cap crit chance just with traits. So if you're going damage, then just power is meh...

But i'm going support anyway, so that power won't mean much, it doesn't affect any of my support skills, nor anything that is considered support-ish, so yeah....

It's fine to have it, and you can be hybrid DPS/support utility with it, but i'm going all in support so on me it would be wasted.

 

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> one quick further thought; toughness alone and armor does not protect your dmg income from beeing cc'd (bc that ignores these two stats), and u need concentration for lesser durance of conditions. therefore u can never view stats out of context.

>

> as single offensemode char that tries to do zergtagging it does make not a huge difference how much bulk u run. stats just balance that stuff that your skillset and chosen abilities can not provide so yeah.

>

> i'd never trust too much in your boons, if more people knew how to play scrouge or slack less at playing chrono + spellbreaker, you'd run 90% of the battles without boons. scrouge corrupts can instadown several overconfident players at once. my fav victim are guardians tho, bc they really often use a ton of boons and try to re-apply them quickly once u corrupt them - thing is u can corrupt faster than they can re-apply xD

 

Concentration shortens condition duration on you, really? You sure about that? As far as i know, concentration only increases boon duration that you give to yourself and others...

 

And i'm never basing any of my builds around having boons, especially not in WvW because of the boonstrip. Building around boons is for raiders since no one can strip boons from you there, but raids is really the only place you can expect to have boons on you. I mean, not even in open world or fractals can you expect boons so i never build around the assumption that i'll have them. In WvW it's better to have a solid build that works as is so any boons you recieve are a bonus. :smile: