So, about Hardened Leather....

[Dreddo.9865]

The price of the leather required to craft all the parts of the set is 45g. Is this sum a gamebreaker for all the people moaning in this thread? I guess not.

 

The fact that more and more people find it convenient to protest about prices (and following 'Anet fixes') has brought the market to a point where almost all materials have considerably lost value and makes it questionable whether it is worth to farm them for any other reason than covering your own needs.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

> @Wanze.8410 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

>

> > Btw, one thing that would help stabilize markets would be if they were being more transparent about what moves they were making and their intended effects, rather than expecting the players to figure it out themselves. The current method only benefits people who find the new sources/recipes first, and know how best to exploit them before the rest of the community catches on. If they were instead to just say in the patch notes "**we're increasing the drop rates of certain sources of hard leather by 3%, and expect the prices of hard leather to fall by 5% in the near future**," players could adapt quicker and more evenly to changes in the market, and avoid those hoarding scenarios they were talking about before PoF's release. Players would know where things were heading and would not have to gamble on the future. Things were heading to equilibrium.

>

> A statement like this would be completely useless for several reasons:

>

> * First of all, Anet would have to start micromanaging their materials one by one. They currently arent doing that because its too time intensive

> * most materials already go through bigger value, supply and demand swings several times on any given day, depending on wether its prime time or not in their main markets, north america and central europe, so they could post this every day

> * If they start **predicting** bigger value swings, they will get into a downward spiral of scrutiny from the player base, if their predictions arent accurate

> * while they can definately adjust sinks and faucets to have the value of a material swing one way or the other, its way harder to determine where that swing ends without adjusting sinks and faucets once again

> * They simply cant predict how the market develops as accurately as you want because there are too many variables involved, as long as every single player can influence what materials he farms and which materials he consumes

> * it doesnt matter if players discover new sinks or faucets in game by themselves or through patch notes as there will always be players who discover and act on it first and some will be last

 

I have this idea that they should make minor/major runes and sigils salvage into materials, but instead of being a random material, dynamically adjust (from the TP API)what material it is based upon the TP price. So whatever is the most expensive unrefined Leather/Wood/Ore (Ok, so it will never be ore) is the salvage material. So if you salvage 100 items with a copper-fed, then you'll likely get around 10 runes/sigils, so give it a 50% chance to salvage into one of these items and you have around a 5% chance total to get one from a weapon or armor. Would this then level out prices further, do you think?

[Titan.3472]

The price of leather suits me, I just want/need GOLD. I would rather see underpriced same tier material increase their value. I would make more gold and you would be able to buy more leather too.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > @Wanze.8410 said:

>I understand what you are saying, but that's why it's all about balance. You don't want crafting to be seen as the only viable option to acquire gear, but you also don't want it to be removed as a competitive alternative. It is a tricky slope to traverse, but that's how it goes.

 

Agreed. One thing that absolutely boggled my mind in the early game was how massively inefficient crafting was, there was basically no point to crafting your own gear, it always cost WAY more than any other method. Crafting your own gear should always be the cheapest possible way to get gear (of equivalent quality).

 

> @Wanze.8410 said:

> * First of all, Anet would have to start micromanaging their materials one by one. They currently arent doing that because its too time intensive

 

They wouldn't need to get too in the weeds with it. For the most part they would only need to take corrective measures every six months or so once they have a stable base to work with, and they could do multiple similar materials in bulk. They would only need to get specific about it in cases where something is WAY off and the swing will be very significant. I imagine the first few weeks and months attempting this would involve a lot more work, because they'd be chasing the balance a bit, but once it levels off them it's level, and they just need to consider the ramifications of adding or removing content that might impact a given market. And again, the goal isn't to get it within like a 1% difference or anything, it's to at least get it to maybe 10% or so. In some cases even 50% would be an improvement.

 

It would also be more important to focus on staples like logs, sections, scraps, etc., than to focus on more rare mats like gemstones, odd vegetables, ambrite, etc. They can mess with those a bit, but getting the most core stuff in balance would be the priority.

 

> * most materials already go through bigger value, supply and demand swings several times on any given day, depending on wether its prime time or not in their main markets, north america and central europe, so they could post this every day

 

Yes, but they'd know that, so they'd know they wouldn't need to mention that. It wouldn't be about the short term fluctuations, it would be about the averages. If a material swings back and forth all day, but the average has fallen from 50s to 40s over a month or so, from 75 three months ago, then that's the trend, and they would be setting targets based on that trend. If they wanted to keep it at 50s, then they would make corrections that they believe, based on the performance of other materials or of this one at different times, would lead to the value rising by around 10s, give or take. If it fails to work, they might tweak a bit more, but by setting a target, they set expectations.

 

> * If they start **predicting** bigger value swings, they will get into a downward spiral of scrutiny from the player base, if their predictions arent accurate

 

Again, they can always course correct if the change is insufficient. ANet has a bad habit of "we fixed it, now let's leave it alone for two years, even if it didn't actually get fixed." You can't do that. You have to make a change, evaluate the results, and if it doesn't meet targets, make a bigger change. Note that not only can they adjust based on what we see on the markets, but also changes in player behavior.

 

> * while they can definately adjust sinks and faucets to have the value of a material swing one way or the other, its way harder to determine where that swing ends without adjusting sinks and faucets once again

 

Which they can do. They can make their best guess, let it go, and be prepared to pull back a bit (and announce that change) if it overshoots. Players will get used to the patterns, and so will they. We've already gotten used to far more reckless patterns where they just dump recipes into the market that they know will add demand, and players have to guess for themselves how much. Worst case, this is reducing speculative trading from the current level.

 

> * They simply cant predict how the market develops as accurately as you want because there are too many variables involved, as long as every single player can influence what materials he farms and which materials he consumes

 

True, but they know how previous actions have worked out, and can adjust as needed.

 

> * it doesnt matter if players discover new sinks or faucets in game by themselves or through patch notes as there will always be players who discover and act on it first and some will be last

 

True, but this speeds up the process. It let people know what to expect. And again, if the price overshoots the target, they will know that a correction is in store, so there's no point rushing to buy at the higher price, it will definitely be falling again in the near future. With the current market, most players have *no idea* where the prices will be headed next.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @Titan.3472 said:

> The price of leather suits me, I just want/need GOLD. I would rather see underpriced same tier material increase their value. I would make more gold and you would be able to buy more leather too.

 

I feel the same, but for those who need materials it's a problem instead.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @Dreddo.9865 said:

> The price of the leather required to craft all the parts of the set is 45g. Is this sum a gamebreaker for all the people moaning in this thread? I guess not.

>

 

Another person assuming the thread is somehow exclusively about the cost of crafting Lunatic armor for the collection? Perhaps you should read more of the posts, and see what points are actually being bought to the discussion. Maybe then we can traverse from knee-jerk reactions, to offering more context-relevant feedback.

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> It's gotten to the point where crafting anything that uses Hardened Leather ends up being overly expensive, especially when leveling crafts like Tailor, where you can't even sell the end results for half the cost involved in crafting them.

 

As you (rightfully) keep pointing out that other posters were misinterpreting your OP, I thought I go back to it. I take it that the quoted part is your main concern.

 

And to me, this is clearly a LTP issue as you seem to be crafting the wrong items when leveling your crafting. My guess would be that you are using a crafting guide like gw2crafts and that is your problem., you are crafting the same items as all other users of that guide, which creates overdemand for those items.

 

There are [102 different light exotic armor pieces you can discover](https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/tp/search?name=exalted&rarity=Exotic&type=Armor&weightclass=Light&level-min=80&ipg=200&sort=sell&page=1) in order to level to 500, plenty of those earn you a profit when crafted and sold or let you break even. It just seems that you are crafting the wrong items.

 

An experienced crafter is able to level a crafting profession from 400-500 and turn a profit, regardless of the current price of t6 leather or any other mat.

 

Fully boosted, I could probably level you tailor from 400-500 without using any t6 leather at all, since discovery of the lvl 375 rare sets made out of t5 mats (which are quite cheap atm) still gives decent discovery exp in higher levels. I just tested this on one of my alts who is a lvl 476 tailor and discovery of the light rare carrion shoulders gave me nearly 7k crafting exp.

 

TL/DR: While the value of t6 leather definately has an impact on how much gold you are losing when leveling tailor, its not the cause that you are losing gold.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @Wanze.8410 said:

> As you (rightfully) keep pointing out that other posters were misinterpreting your OP, I thought I go back to it. I take it that the quoted part is your main concern.

>

> And to me, this is clearly a LTP issue as you seem to be crafting the wrong items when leveling your crafting. My guess would be that you are using a crafting guide like gw2crafts and that is your problem., you are crafting the same items as all other users of that guide, which creates overdemand for those items.

>

> ...

>

> ...

>

> ...

>

> TL/DR: While the value of t6 leather definately has an impact on how much gold you are losing when leveling tailor, its not the cause that you are losing gold.

 

While I do agree on your point that aspects of crafting and the loss involved can be chalked off as a L2P issue, that was really only just one aspect of the many points bought up in my post and the subsequent discussion. Your reply still does not account for the very high price of Hardened Leather, irrespective of whether it's use is avoidable in certain circumstances or not, nor does it account for why there's such a great amount of disparity between the price of Hardened Leather, and other basic T6 crafting mats, or why that situation was forcefully introduced.

 

In my case, the costs of leveling didn't actually affect me much personally, because I had already leveled every craft to 400 in the early days of the game and leveled the ones I needed to 500 (including armorsmith) not long after the new caps were introduced. The three characters I played most, with my guardian being the main, were geared fully in ascended armor and trinkets, with the guardian having crafted armor, and my thief and elementalist having ascended armor I acquired through fractal runs or other means.

 

Whatever loss I might have incurred, especially after the price of leather shot up, was largely avoided, because I avoided most crafting altogether by that stage. After all, why spend resources on crafting when there are cheaper or more efficient alternatives? The point on leveling crafts was bought up mostly because of a guild mate who was leveling their tailor to get one piece of armor he wanted from the guild armor sets, but again, it was just one facet of the topic and not the sole focus of it.

 

So when you refer to me, or to my supposed personal circumstances, you are sometimes presumptuous in your assessments. I'm not here complaining because I feel injured by some sense of loss, but rather because I am actively refraining from using features of the game (I.E. crafting) because of unbalanced prices. I question, for example, the fact that crafting heavy Draconic armor actually uses more Hardened Leather than metal, despite being a heavy craft (with the same applying to the light armor equivalent), and why despite throwing Hardened Leather prices into an initial steep climb (with the peak capping out at over a gold per hardened square), the fix for that blunder has been very slow and very laborious, having already spanned two years and counting.

 

Just remember, being able to afford something doesn't mean people want to waste gold, especially if there's a cheaper/better/faster alternative in many cases. Asking whether it will be fixed also does not mean I cannot live with the current status quo. If the price of Hardened Leather forever remained as is, I'd live with it and work around it. But I see no reason why it can't be discussed, or why we can't get official feedback as to what the dev's intentions are, irrespective of whether or not they align with my own or anyone else's opinion on the matter.

[mtpelion.4562]

I agree that refining and crafting recipes should be standardized. I don't agree that ArenaNet should take any action beyond that to "balance" the price of items on the TP.

 

The only other thing I would like to see is for the Insignias to have a Cloth OR Leather version (as opposed to the current version which is a Cloth AND Leather recipe). This would allow players to select the recipe that works best for them (i.e. if leather is high right now, they can use the cloth option or vice versa). This would theoretically allow the cloth and leather markets to move together.

[OriOri.8724]

I'm still waiting for someone to justify to me that one of the two mats used in every tier of armor crafting, also being the one used in significantly higher amounts, is the one mat that we cannot get from regular gameplay? No leather nodes in the open world to farm. Mobs don't drop leather. Not all armor salvages into leather, even though leather is required to craft all armor tiers.

 

Can anyone justify this? This question is not about the price, just the design decision of making leather the most needed crafting mat for armor, and also the only one you don't acquire in regular gameplay.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> I dread on when I get enough cobs to do the heavy lunatic outfit as... I don't think I have enough of this leather to finish the collection for that backpack.

 

If I had the choice to go back.. I would of saved the leather cos the back pack just isn't all the brill.. in fact the rare version and the ignition version are better imo.

 

But yeah Hardened Leather has just gone silly season

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @Bloodstealer.5978 said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > I dread on when I get enough cobs to do the heavy lunatic outfit as... I don't think I have enough of this leather to finish the collection for that backpack.

>

> If I had the choice to go back.. I would of saved the leather cos the back pack just isn't all the brill.. in fact the rare version and the ignition version are better imo.

>

> But yeah Hardened Leather has just gone silly season

 

Thing is me and the colour blue goes together like Cheesecake and motor oil. Not "fond" of blue, I can say.

The other is orange which isn't bad... but doesn't work well with red or green or something like that (that and I always seen orange with green looks way too halloweenish).

[mtpelion.4562]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> I'm still waiting for someone to justify to me that one of the two mats used in every tier of armor crafting, also being the one used in significantly higher amounts, is the one mat that we cannot get from regular gameplay? No leather nodes in the open world to farm. Mobs don't drop leather. Not all armor salvages into leather, even though leather is required to craft all armor tiers.

>

> Can anyone justify this? This question is not about the price, just the design decision of making leather the most needed crafting mat for armor, and also the only one you don't acquire in regular gameplay.

 

Think of the Hardened Leather Supply as a sink basin.

 

The faucet at the top is players salvaging gear and opening bags to create new leather pieces.

 

The drain at the bottom is the crafting recipes and other uses of leather.

 

The water in the basin represents the total leather present in the game.

 

At one point, the basin was full. So full that people were literally deleting full stacks of leather because everyone had so much that no one would buy it and there were almost no uses for it.

 

ArenaNet decided to fix this and in true ArenaNet form they did so by turning the spigot almost all the way off (i.e. nerfing drop rates from bags and cutting salvage rates to 1/3 of what they were before) and opening the drain all the way up (by requiring more pieces for refinement and crafting, as well as adding sinks for Guild Halls and Legendary crafting). By blowing out both ends of the formula, the sink basin eventually ran out of water. Now the leather is being used nearly as fast as it is created, which is what has driven up the price on the TP.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @mtpelion.4562 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > I'm still waiting for someone to justify to me that one of the two mats used in every tier of armor crafting, also being the one used in significantly higher amounts, is the one mat that we cannot get from regular gameplay? No leather nodes in the open world to farm. Mobs don't drop leather. Not all armor salvages into leather, even though leather is required to craft all armor tiers.

> >

> > Can anyone justify this? This question is not about the price, just the design decision of making leather the most needed crafting mat for armor, and also the only one you don't acquire in regular gameplay.

>

> Think of the Hardened Leather Supply as a sink basin.

>

> The faucet at the top is players salvaging gear and opening bags to create new leather pieces.

>

> The drain at the bottom is the crafting recipes and other uses of leather.

>

> The water in the basin represents the total leather present in the game.

>

> At one point, the basin was full. So full that people were literally deleting full stacks of leather because everyone had so much that no one would buy it and there were almost no uses for it.

>

> ArenaNet decided to fix this and in true ArenaNet form they did so by turning the spigot almost all the way off (i.e. nerfing drop rates from bags and cutting salvage rates to 1/3 of what they were before) and opening the drain all the way up (by requiring more pieces for refinement and crafting, as well as adding sinks for Guild Halls and Legendary crafting). By blowing out both ends of the formula, the sink basin eventually ran out of water. Now the leather is being used nearly as fast as it is created, which is what has driven up the price on the TP.

 

Right, and the problem there is not that they made a change, but that they then *walked away from the issue entirely,* rather than continuing to tweak it until they got it right.

https://img.memecdn.com/i-fixed-it_o_900656.jpg

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > It hasn't hit its 1 year high yet. In fact, it's about 35 ish percent below its previous high. (32 s then to about 22s now.)

> > >

> > > It's still too high though.

> >

> > These arguments make no sense ... the market price should tell you what your threshold is for simply buying it or going out and getting it. This is the reason Anet introduced a higher drop rate of leather in Doric Lake in the first place; because people where the market price was above their threshold had no options. Anet has already solved this problem for you ... in a few ways actually (the other is probably even more offensive to you). It's just that you don't like your options. That's a different and non-Anet related problem.

>

> You don't actually seem to understand my arguments at all. Perhaps you should read my recent post above, and stop assuming that I am somehow offended or just want an easy way out. The problems I addressed have not been solved, not by ANet, and not by any means I can contribute directly outside of discussing the problem and bringing attention to it.

 

You haven't brought anything new to the discussion that started a long time ago, no matter what new angle you think you have approached it from. The answer is that Anet has given players options they didn't have before with leather with the introduction of Doric Lake. The price being 'too high' is a SUBJECTIVE assessment and not necessarily a problem. It's simply a matter of personal preference.

 

Crafting stuff with leather is overly expensive is your main beef? That's again, a subjective statement but even if that's offensive to every player, the PRACTICAL reality is that there is no value in Anet continually balancing to maintain costs to level all crafting arts equally. Something always costs more; right now it's leather.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

 

> Right, and the problem there is not that they made a change, but that they then *walked away from the issue entirely,* rather than continuing to tweak it until they got it right.

> https://img.memecdn.com/i-fixed-it_o_900656.jpg

 

That's simply a matter of not recognizing a diminishing return of effort and Anet having a finite level of resources to address these things, something of a theme with most of your posts.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> You haven't brought anything new to the discussion that started a long time ago, no matter what new angle you think you have approached it from. The answer is that Anet has given players options they didn't have before with leather with the introduction of Doric Lake. The price being 'too high' is a SUBJECTIVE assessment and not necessarily a problem. It's simply a matter of personal preference.

>

> Crafting stuff with leather is overly expensive is your main beef? That's again, a subjective statement but even if that's offensive to every player, the PRACTICAL reality is that there is no value in Anet continually balancing to maintain costs to level all crafting arts equally. Something always costs more; right now it's leather.

>

 

Sometimes simply continuing the discussion is enough to draw attention to it. Problems don't get solved if you just wave a red flag once and then never bring it up again. But if it bothers you that much, no-one is forcing you to be involved in a discussion you may feel is pointless, or that has been covered before. In any case, I'm not some omnipotent being that has observed every discussion in this forum, so naturally myself and others will bring up topics that may have already been seen, it's not difficult to comprehend.

 

Also, your point about the price being too high being subjective is a rather weak counter argument. I can just as easily say that your opinion of it not being a problem is also subjective. That's why people debate on matters, because they have different views on topics, and often solutions can arise out of those different views being pooled together and discussed. Of course, I have no issues with you disagreeing with me, but trying to simply invalidate my argument with the "it's your opinion" card is not going to get us very far, especially if that's the limit to your argument.

 

And on a final note, if there's no value to ANet balancing costs, why did they try to increase the price of leather to begin with, thus causing the price to rise to what it is now? The fact remains that ANet has been actively involved in the economy, and continues to be involved to this day. So obviously they feel it's more important than you do.

[mtpelion.4562]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

 

> And on a final note, if there's no value to ANet balancing costs, why did they try to increase the price of leather to begin with, thus causing the price to rise to what it is now?

 

I would argue that they weren't concerned with the price, but rather the extreme surplus of supply due to a near complete lack of uses for the material.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @mtpelion.4562 said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

>

> > And on a final note, if there's no value to ANet balancing costs, why did they try to increase the price of leather to begin with, thus causing the price to rise to what it is now?

>

> I would argue that they weren't concerned with the price, but rather the extreme surplus of supply due to a near complete lack of uses for the material.

 

If that's the case, they still manipulated demand to invigorate the economy (though they overdid it a bit). You can also see their efforts to counteract that overshoot with the introduction of leather farms. The point is, you can see clear evidence of them influencing the economy, and we've also seen developers comment on the state of the economy, and their reasons for implementing certain features in a direct effort to influence it (for example, they were clearly outspoken about their reasons for not allowing us to deposit various materials from Path of Fire, and it was to help the economy for those new mats and ensure their prices didn't rise too high).

 

Of course, they don't always get things right, but the mere fact that they continuously try to have an influence on the economy is quite telling.

[OriOri.8724]

> @mtpelion.4562 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > I'm still waiting for someone to justify to me that one of the two mats used in every tier of armor crafting, also being the one used in significantly higher amounts, is the one mat that we cannot get from regular gameplay? No leather nodes in the open world to farm. Mobs don't drop leather. Not all armor salvages into leather, even though leather is required to craft all armor tiers.

> >

> > Can anyone justify this? This question is not about the price, just the design decision of making leather the most needed crafting mat for armor, and also the only one you don't acquire in regular gameplay.

>

> Think of the Hardened Leather Supply as a sink basin.

>

> The faucet at the top is players salvaging gear and opening bags to create new leather pieces.

>

> The drain at the bottom is the crafting recipes and other uses of leather.

>

> The water in the basin represents the total leather present in the game.

>

> At one point, the basin was full. So full that people were literally deleting full stacks of leather because everyone had so much that no one would buy it and there were almost no uses for it.

>

> ArenaNet decided to fix this and in true ArenaNet form they did so by turning the spigot almost all the way off (i.e. nerfing drop rates from bags and cutting salvage rates to 1/3 of what they were before) and opening the drain all the way up (by requiring more pieces for refinement and crafting, as well as adding sinks for Guild Halls and Legendary crafting). By blowing out both ends of the formula, the sink basin eventually ran out of water. Now the leather is being used nearly as fast as it is created, which is what has driven up the price on the TP.

 

Yea I know why the price went up so heavily after HoT, but I''m really looking for an argument justifying why leather remains in this state of being needed in large quantities for crafting armor of all 3 weights, yet is the only mat that is not accessible through regular gameplay. Why is this disconnect ok to so many people?

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > > > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > It hasn't hit its 1 year high yet. In fact, it's about 35 ish percent below its previous high. (32 s then to about 22s now.)

> > > >

> > > > It's still too high though.

> > >

> > > These arguments make no sense ... the market price should tell you what your threshold is for simply buying it or going out and getting it. This is the reason Anet introduced a higher drop rate of leather in Doric Lake in the first place; because people where the market price was above their threshold had no options. Anet has already solved this problem for you ... in a few ways actually (the other is probably even more offensive to you). It's just that you don't like your options. That's a different and non-Anet related problem.

> >

> > You don't actually seem to understand my arguments at all. Perhaps you should read my recent post above, and stop assuming that I am somehow offended or just want an easy way out. The problems I addressed have not been solved, not by ANet, and not by any means I can contribute directly outside of discussing the problem and bringing attention to it.

>

> You haven't brought anything new to the discussion that started a long time ago, no matter what new angle you think you have approached it from. The answer is that Anet has given players options they didn't have before with leather with the introduction of Doric Lake. The price being 'too high' is a SUBJECTIVE assessment and not necessarily a problem. It's simply a matter of personal preference.

>

> Crafting stuff with leather is overly expensive is your main beef? That's again, a subjective statement but even if that's offensive to every player, the PRACTICAL reality is that there is no value in Anet continually balancing to maintain costs to level all crafting arts equally. Something always costs more; right now it's leather.

>

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

>

> > Right, and the problem there is not that they made a change, but that they then *walked away from the issue entirely,* rather than continuing to tweak it until they got it right.

> > https://img.memecdn.com/i-fixed-it_o_900656.jpg

>

> That's simply a matter of not recognizing a diminishing return of effort and Anet having a finite level of resources to address these things, something of a theme with most of your posts.

 

Not everyone can even reach Lake Doric.

[nekretaal.6485]

The 250 leather requirement gamble chests (that can reward materials to make town portals) don't help.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> Also, your point about the price being too high being subjective is a rather weak counter argument. I can just as easily say that your opinion of it not being a problem is also subjective.

 

... which is exactly why there isn't anything needing to be done here. Neither POV is irrelevant, but the idea that YOUR'S is more important by labeling it a 'problem' that requires Anet to fix it is. If all POV's are to be considered fairly, then objectively, nothing more needs to be done, since everyone has reasonable options and is affected equally. But obviously you don't think as equally as you imply you do since you think higher of your opinion and it's importance than anyone else's. You're argument that the price is too high is JUST as valid as any argument that the price is too low. Therefore, subjective arguments on pricing are not compelling for requesting changes.

 

On the other hand, the argument that it was unfair to hold players hostage with the TP IS a compelling argument for change, and Anet did act on that point by what they did in Doric Lake. So it's not going to be made easy for you to ignore what is real in this game and what is nonsensical.

 

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> And on a final note, if there's no value to ANet balancing costs, why did they try to increase the price of leather to begin with, thus causing the price to rise to what it is now? The fact remains that ANet has been actively involved in the economy, and continues to be involved to this day. So obviously they feel it's more important than you do.

 

They made no attempt to try to increase the price of leather, ever; the prices change because of changing game conditions. If I still had the quote where JS stated they are not interested in manipulating TP prices, I would post it to crush this bit of nonsensical thinking. You have badly misinterpreted Anet's motivations to change the game. They are not related to prices on the TP. Specifically for Doric Lake, the motivation was to give players options, not manipulate prices. Besides .. if you truly believe in Anet manipulating costs theory, you will see a dramatic drop in leather prices since the introduction of Doric lake. The complaint here is really unfounded. Doric lake has done everything all the naysayers said it wouldn't do. /shrug.

 

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> Not everyone can even reach Lake Doric.

 

That doesn't matter and the best part ... It's even fair!

 

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Yea I know why the price went up so heavily after HoT, but I''m really looking for an argument justifying why leather remains in this state of being needed in large quantities for crafting armor of all 3 weights, yet is the only mat that is not accessible through regular gameplay. Why is this disconnect ok to so many people?

 

Probably because everyone suffers from it. I don't mind so much if it exists because I know it's the same for the next guy. I also don't mind because smart players know how to use this to their advantage.

[Wanze.8410]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > @Wanze.8410 said:

> > As you (rightfully) keep pointing out that other posters were misinterpreting your OP, I thought I go back to it. I take it that the quoted part is your main concern.

> >

> > And to me, this is clearly a LTP issue as you seem to be crafting the wrong items when leveling your crafting. My guess would be that you are using a crafting guide like gw2crafts and that is your problem., you are crafting the same items as all other users of that guide, which creates overdemand for those items.

> >

> > ...

> >

> > ...

> >

> > ...

> >

> > TL/DR: While the value of t6 leather definately has an impact on how much gold you are losing when leveling tailor, its not the cause that you are losing gold.

>

> While I do agree on your point that aspects of crafting and the loss involved can be chalked off as a L2P issue, that was really only just one aspect of the many points bought up in my post and the subsequent discussion. Your reply still does not account for the very high price of Hardened Leather, irrespective of whether it's use is avoidable in certain circumstances or not, nor does it account for why there's such a great amount of disparity between the price of Hardened Leather, and other basic T6 crafting mats, or why that situation was forcefully introduced.

 

While you may have brought up other points of discussion when this discussion evolved, I didnt check them yet personally because when I discovered this discussion, it already evolved. Naturally, you check the OP about the issues at hand and some of the last posts first to get a general idea of the current state of the discussion. After I nitpicked some comments of other posters that caught my eye, I saw posts of you complaining that discussion might go off topic, so I went back to your OP, to find out what your initial problem is with hard leather and replied to it.

 

Your OP, in fact, mentions two issues you seem to have with the current price of hard leather, one was the issue that novice players might be using hard leather unefficiently while leveling any of the armor crafting professions and I guess we both agree that this might be a l2p issue, so lets leave it at that. Your other issue that you mentioned in your op, that t6 leather is far more valuable than other common t6 mats (ori, ancient, gossamer), is in its nature just an opinion and you didnt give enough evidence in my opinion for your cause that materials of the same tier should have the same value. If you would have checked my contributions to this discussion to a degree that you seem to expect me to read all of your responses to this discussion, you would have noticed that I already adressed this issue. So let me clarify it:

On what grounds do you expect materials of the same tier to have the same trading value?

 

Even if you found a valid argument for that, if I was a dev, I could simply adjust the tiers associated with each material, so tier 1-5 stays the same, tier six is ancient wood, ori ores and gossamer scraps, tier 8 is hard leather and tier 9 will be the 8 different ascended common mats ( 4 each for traditional crafting and grandmaster marks). There is no harm in asking Anet to adjust the economy, if you have a valid reason. This isnt one.

 

> So when you refer to me, or to my supposed personal circumstances, you are sometimes presumptuous in your assessments. I'm not here complaining because I feel injured by some sense of loss, but rather because I am actively refraining from using features of the game (I.E. crafting) because of unbalanced prices. I question, for example, the fact that crafting heavy Draconic armor actually uses more Hardened Leather than metal, despite being a heavy craft (with the same applying to the light armor equivalent), and why despite throwing Hardened Leather prices into an initial steep climb (with the peak capping out at over a gold per hardened square), the fix for that blunder has been very slow and very laborious, having already spanned two years and counting.

 

I only refered to you because I thought you were only speaking for yourself, little did I know about the fact that you voiced your concerns for someone else. If you want me to consider this, include it into the post that I am replying to.

 

Here you also mention another issue because you think that heavy armor should require more metal than leather because its, well, heavy, so lore.

Can you tell me how you come to that conclusion without knowing the actual weights or volumes of each of the 4 common mats and their refinements?

How much square inch of a hard leather square do you need in order to pad 2 orichalcum ingots worth of helmet casings? What ratio are you basing your calculations on? I guess its 1:1 but can you give me a lore-based reason why that ratio is the only possible one?

 

>

> Just remember, being able to afford something doesn't mean people want to waste gold, especially if there's a cheaper/better/faster alternative in many cases. Asking whether it will be fixed also does not mean I cannot live with the current status quo. If the price of Hardened Leather forever remained as is, I'd live with it and work around it. But I see no reason why it can't be discussed, or why we can't get official feedback as to what the dev's intentions are, irrespective of whether or not they align with my own or anyone else's opinion on the matter.

 

they are not wasting gold because they are saving up for something they would like to own. You are also asking someone else a question,whose answer depends on your own future actions because the price of t6 leather depends on the general supply and demand created by thousands of individuals, just like you.

[Crystal Black.8190]

Some of you guys seem to think that Lake Doric is the "solution" to a high leather price. I think that's not the case. Having a widely used material like leather only really available at one location is definitely not a solution in a game that tries to "let you play how you like". Especially not for something so essential like armor.

 

I can't speak for others but my solution to the high price for (re)gearing my characters is not to go farm leather or gold to buy it, but instead to play less overall and slowly try to get stuff from other means like doing story with enough characters to get a full set so I can actually play the build I want in the content I want. But until then that increases the attention my other games get.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Crystal Black.8190" said:

> Some of you guys seem to think that Lake Doric is the "solution" to a high leather price. I think that's not the case. Having a widely used material like leather only really available at one location is definitely not a solution in a game that tries to "let you play how you like". Especially not for something so essential like armor.

>

> I can't speak for others but my solution to the high price for (re)gearing my characters is not to go farm leather or gold to buy it, but instead to play less overall and slowly try to get stuff from other means like doing story with enough characters to get a full set so I can actually play the build I want in the content I want. But until then that increases the attention my other games get.

 

You're falling into the trap other people have; the "play how you like" is not some broad statement that's applicable to any situation you can think of, to use as a justification for a fix anytime it contradicts that particular situation. That statement has context and that context is not related to getting materials for crafting; it's related to not being fixed into a traditional holy trinity role. That is all that Anet intended for that to mean.