Cyninja.2954 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Luciferior.4802 said: > Alot of people in this thread saying "Work for it and earn it" and I majorly support that concept but I think it should be an option at least. This concept of I want to show off my hard earned shines feels a bit awkward imo do we not show off our fresh shiny gemstore skins we bought via credit card or gold to gems ...Or just gems if you had them? Do people not pay for raid runs anymore to get carried and come out with that eternal title? assuming I understand the concept of it correctly. Keeping in mind that utilizing ones credit card to buy a legendary for sure removes the effort and concept of earning said legendary ..but on the same hand it does support the game since we in fact don't pay a monthly sub. Earning it via hard work is nice ...also supporting the game and getting a shiny for your effort is also nice. If by chance people are still stuck on this earn it and work for it all the way I have to pose this question ...how many made their gen2 legendaries without any help from their friends or guildies lol? no mat contributions no help finding specific areas for the achievements on how to do it no help doing specific events especially if they had to fail in order to get legendary progress? not to be mean here but the reality is this there Is only a few people who honestly legit earned their generation 2 legendaries without any outside help contributions or help in general and grinded out the whole process on their own. To those few who actually did they know who they are I applaud their efforts...PS I didn't make this reply to justify wanting to buy a gen 2 legendary via debt card even if I was able to I wouldn't I have regretted to many prior purchases skins wise for the first legendaries half of which I wish I could sell back or toss in the mystic forge... Your argument can be summed up as: there are other broken ways to get titles and expensive/rare skins. Since those other ways exist, we should allow every desired skin to be purchasable. **Just because people find ways to get around having to farm or achieve their legendary armor or titles or other things does not mean generation 2 legendarys need to be changed. That's like saying:"well we have 1 broken arm, might as well break the other one."** As far as your question, I've completed all of my legendarys every since launch without any outside help (except for 1nce where a friend lent me 500 gold to sell a Twilight I had made). That's full legendary light armor, Aurora, The Shining Blade, 2 Twilights, 1 Sunrise, 1 Eternity (Sold Eternity and the 2nd Twilight, only wanted the skins back then), Fractal legendary backpiece, 2x Bolt (sold it) and 3-4 sets of ascended armor crafted (might have been 5 total, been a while since I had to craft ascended armor with high tier fractals and raids nowadays). Gen2 legendarys are not that hard to make, especially if you have the gold to just buy the materials. The rest of the materials are farmed fast enough. This entire disscussion is moot because it's already possible to buy most of the time consuming aspects (the material and gold farm) off the TP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > Gen2 legendarys are not that hard to make, especially if you have the gold to just buy the materials. The rest of the materials are farmed fast enough. This entire disscussion is moot because it's already possible to buy most of the time consuming aspects (the material and gold farm) off the TP. They are not that hard, they are easy as breathing, The fact is that some things can be bought from TP, and others ( like events or currencies or account bound items ) can't. You can buy items from tp, and that's right. Here people are asking for a way to PAY other players on a commission. **Golds in exchange of doing a TASK** So, the mats are worth 1.5k golds at tp ( i.e. t1 leggies)? Then for stuff like * Tokens * Obsidian Shards * Gift of the Explorer * Spirit Shards * Mystic Clovers players pay em up to 3kg. It's not that hard to understand. For T2 leggies there will be also more things to consider ( price would be waaaay higher ), like * 1 limited per account * many events ( hours of timegate for redo the content you have done infinite times ). * more expensive ( amalagamated gemstones, the crafting for precursor, and so on ) * HoT tokens In the t2 price would be 2k, the tp price would be at least 4k if not higher. If you think that 2k are not enough for doing tasks and gather currencies around the world, then don't sell it. Really players who are defending the t2 or show hate towards who has more golds than em ( and the priceless ones who claim t2 as PRESTIGE )... ... really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Shirlias.8104 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > Gen2 legendarys are not that hard to make, especially if you have the gold to just buy the materials. The rest of the materials are farmed fast enough. This entire disscussion is moot because it's already possible to buy most of the time consuming aspects (the material and gold farm) off the TP. > > They are not that hard, they are easy as breathing, > The fact is that some things can be bought from TP, and others ( like events or currencies or account bound items ) can't. > > You can buy items from tp, and that's right. > Here people are asking for a way to PAY other players on a commission. > **Golds in exchange of doing a TASK** > > So, the mats are worth 1.5k golds at tp ( i.e. t1 leggies)? > Then for stuff like > > * Tokens > * Obsidian Shards > * Gift of the Explorer > * Spirit Shards > * Mystic Clovers > > players pay em up to 3kg. > > It's not that hard to understand. > > For T2 leggies there will be also more things to consider ( price would be waaaay higher ), like > > * 1 limited per account > * many events ( hours of timegate for redo the content you have done infinite times ). > * more expensive ( amalagamated gemstones, the crafting for precursor, and so on ) > * HoT tokens > > In the t2 price would be 2k, the tp price would be at least 4k if not higher. > > If you think that 2k are not enough for doing tasks and gather currencies around the world, then don't sell it. > > Really players who are defending the t2 or show hate towards who has more golds than em ( and the priceless ones who claim t2 as PRESTIGE )... > > ... really > I'd be careful with accusing other players of hate, it tells more about your thought process and views than the people you are accusing. It's also seldom a very good argument in the first place. Not wanting ones work devalued is nothing unnatural. Even if a majority of this work was grind or perseverance. I still don't see why everything should be purchasable with a credit card. T2 legendarys are rare, which makes them actually desirable skins unlike T1. I see no reason why this should be changed. For someone who has infinite gold or enough gold to purchase a T2 legendary in the first place, they might just as well buy the materials and farm the rest. Shouldn't take longer than 1 week tops of casual play. The most boring part would probably be doing the Dragon Stand meta for map completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Did you read the whole thread? I guess you don't, or else you wouldn't say that i accuse, cause there are plenty of em hating who buy with gold or buy many gems with real money cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I can see why they aren't being made tradeable even if I kind of miss the early days back when you could buy about anything you needed or simply wanted on the TP and did not have to farm content you don't particularly enjoy. There are simply too many legendary items and not even just weapons nowadays. You'd have to start questioning trinkets and armors next. Besides, I bet they'd love if they never had made the old legendaries tradable to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMe.1960 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I get the impression that some of the gen2. Legendary owners think they are special and would be hurt hard, if they wouldn't be special anymore ;) Are you doing it because you like the skin or because you want to be special? Just lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch.4957 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Luciferior.4802 said: > Alot of people in this thread saying "Work for it and earn it" and I majorly support that concept but I think it should be an option at least. This concept of I want to show off my hard earned shines feels a bit awkward imo do we not show off our fresh shiny gemstore skins we bought via credit card or gold to gems ...Or just gems if you had them? Do people not pay for raid runs anymore to get carried and come out with that eternal title? assuming I understand the concept of it correctly. Keeping in mind that utilizing ones credit card to buy a legendary for sure removes the effort and concept of earning said legendary ..but on the same hand it does support the game since we in fact don't pay a monthly sub. Earning it via hard work is nice ...also supporting the game and getting a shiny for your effort is also nice. If by chance people are still stuck on this earn it and work for it all the way I have to pose this question ...how many made their gen2 legendaries without any help from their friends or guildies lol? no mat contributions no help finding specific areas for the achievements on how to do it no help doing specific events especially if they had to fail in order to get legendary progress? not to be mean here but the reality is this there Is only a few people who honestly legit earned their generation 2 legendaries without any outside help contributions or help in general and grinded out the whole process on their own. To those few who actually did they know who they are I applaud their efforts...PS I didn't make this reply to justify wanting to buy a gen 2 legendary via debt card even if I was able to I wouldn't I have regretted to many prior purchases skins wise for the first legendaries half of which I wish I could sell back or toss in the mystic forge... I did. I made two of them completely on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avigrus.2871 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I would love to be able to craft them without doing HOT - cannot stand the HOT maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game of Bones.8975 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 If a person wants to craft a legendary and sell it why are people standing in their way? Its not like they can craft an unlimited number of them (only one of each per account) and totally drop their value. ANET can make money, crafters can make gold, and players can obtain a skin they would be out of their reach. If you don't want to sell one of your legendaries, don't; if you don't want to buy one, don't. What's the difference between a person spending hours/days farming stacks of ore/lumber to craft armor/weapons to sell at the TP for someone else to buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @"Game of Bones.8975" said: > If a person wants to craft a legendary and sell it why are people standing in their way? No one is standing in their way. The mechanics don't allow for it. To make it possible for Gen2 legends to be sold, ANet has to go through considerable trouble, changing bits of the games, revisiting rewards, and ensuring that Gen2 legends are still restricted to HoT-owners (since it's a feature of that game). I have yet to see anyone explain why it's worth their time to do that, especially since there are so many, many other things we want them to do. **** > What's the difference between a person spending hours/days farming stacks of ore/lumber to craft armor/weapons to sell at the TP for someone else to buy? None, but that's moot since the argument is over Principle, not Principal. That is, folks are saying that it matters to them that only they could have done the scavenging. There's no economic difference in the long run, except that the demand for some legendaries might be lower. **** Full disclosure: I personally prefer as many rewards as possible to be tradeable. I like being able to choose what content I do and use coin to choose which rewards I want. (At least, for those rewards that aren't based on skill, such as Griffon adventure exclusives, Liadri mini, legendary armor (in theory anyhow).) Still, I understand that lots of people prefer that all rewards are clear indicators that someone has dedicated time & attention to specific aspects of the game. To me, the game is big enough that there's room for all sorts of rewards. I can live with some rewards being account-gated; I'm not sure why some people think that they can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @starhunter.6015 said: > Oh Kitten NO, Just No the reason many see the Gen 2 Legendaries as more of a real Legendary since it is earned and Crafted more so then the Gen 1's . Making the Gen 1 tradable kinda takes away from their prestige. > There is nothing prestigious about grind. The only single item in this entire game you can even remotely call prestegious due to SKILL is Lliardi mini. That. Is. It. Sorry but I for one am not impressed and in awe over how much grind you put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Eh, given how badly some people lsot thier> @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > > > > > I already told you, gen2 is more about perseverance and rarity of the skin, not player skill. They have no added functionality or other benefit over gen1. From a pure rational argument, getting gen1 makes more sense since they are far cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > You wrote many walls of text saying the same thing over and over, and left the out the one comment which answered you repeating argument of:"what does it matter". > > > > > > > > > > Here, let me requote myself: > > > > > > > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > > Actually it does. Gen 1 legendarys are so common now, people have started reskinning them for ages. Rarity has value. Keeping Gen 2 legendarys rare makes them more valuable skin wise. It's a very basic economic principle actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity_value > > > > > > > > > > You enjoy bringing real life prosperity and achievements into this game, many other people/players enjoy getting away from their real life when playing. Both approaches are valid. You not accepting the way things are in GW2 does not invalidate them. You might not value ingame achievements, others do. Taking it further, why the hell are you even playing a video game, get to working, family and improving society. > > > > > > > > > > That's the main problem with the:"nothing matters" argument. Nothing does matter in a video game, so why are you still playing? > > > > And I already told you that didn't originate with me, I was replying to a quote from the OP. > > > > I ignored your quote because it doesn't even address the question I asked. I know you didn't do more than skim the walls of text because you still think I have a problem with Gen 2 and don't accept it, when that wasn't the point I was trying to make and said that I did. It's clearly lost on this, based on the whacky philosophical ending of that post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You asked why people should feel or associate value with ingame items which are more related to grind than skill. You repeatedly mentioned how it does not make sense to you. > > > > > > I responded to this that it's mostly due to rarity. Keeping items rare makes them more valuable. > > > > > > Still waiting on an argument which disproves or argues against why this should be a thing. > > > > > > > > > > Yah.. but having an item be worth 1000 Gold.. would also keep it pretty rare, give the limited number of people that Could/Would shell out that kind of Gold/Grind effort (or RL monies) just for a weapon skin. > > Going by how widespread gen1 legendarys are, not really. I'd bet that the majority of G1 weapons we see around have been earned by the people that use them. I have bought 2 precursors, also sold 1 (but they are just RNG out of a box, so that is just luck, nothing more)... but the crafting the weapon was done by the person wielding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @STIHL.2489 said: > Eh, given how badly some people lsot thier> @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @STIHL.2489 said: > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > > > > > > > I already told you, gen2 is more about perseverance and rarity of the skin, not player skill. They have no added functionality or other benefit over gen1. From a pure rational argument, getting gen1 makes more sense since they are far cheaper. > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote many walls of text saying the same thing over and over, and left the out the one comment which answered you repeating argument of:"what does it matter". > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, let me requote myself: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > > > > > Actually it does. Gen 1 legendarys are so common now, people have started reskinning them for ages. Rarity has value. Keeping Gen 2 legendarys rare makes them more valuable skin wise. It's a very basic economic principle actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity_value > > > > > > > > > > > > You enjoy bringing real life prosperity and achievements into this game, many other people/players enjoy getting away from their real life when playing. Both approaches are valid. You not accepting the way things are in GW2 does not invalidate them. You might not value ingame achievements, others do. Taking it further, why the hell are you even playing a video game, get to working, family and improving society. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the main problem with the:"nothing matters" argument. Nothing does matter in a video game, so why are you still playing? > > > > > And I already told you that didn't originate with me, I was replying to a quote from the OP. > > > > > I ignored your quote because it doesn't even address the question I asked. I know you didn't do more than skim the walls of text because you still think I have a problem with Gen 2 and don't accept it, when that wasn't the point I was trying to make and said that I did. It's clearly lost on this, based on the whacky philosophical ending of that post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You asked why people should feel or associate value with ingame items which are more related to grind than skill. You repeatedly mentioned how it does not make sense to you. > > > > > > > > I responded to this that it's mostly due to rarity. Keeping items rare makes them more valuable. > > > > > > > > Still waiting on an argument which disproves or argues against why this should be a thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yah.. but having an item be worth 1000 Gold.. would also keep it pretty rare, give the limited number of people that Could/Would shell out that kind of Gold/Grind effort (or RL monies) just for a weapon skin. > > > > Going by how widespread gen1 legendarys are, not really. > > I'd bet that the majority of G1 weapons we see around have been earned by the people that use them. I have bought 2 precursors, also sold 1 (but they are just RNG out of a box, so that is just luck, nothing more)... but the crafting the weapon was done by the person wielding it. The legendary market and daily transactions beg to differ. Actually easily researchable on one of the many trading post websites with a history. As it stands, the more popular legendarys are traded at 1-3 piece a day (Twilight, Bolt, Dawn, Bifrost, etc.). I'd even argue that a majority of the precursors are being bought by legendary crafters who are then making a profit on selling the legendary afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > The legendary market and daily transactions beg to differ. Actually easily researchable on one of the many trading post websites with a history. As it stands, the more popular legendarys are traded at 1-3 piece a day (Twilight, Bolt, Dawn, Bifrost, etc.). > > I'd even argue that a majority of the precursors are being bought by legendary crafters who are then making a profit on selling the legendary afterwards. That is probably true, even if it's hard to tell who is creating them and who is selling from the TP-adjunct sites' data alone. However, we can see that there are plenty of people in the grey markets, paying 350-600 gold to others for the account-bound components and nearly all of the buyers are selling the resulting legendaries. (It's a pretty good profit actually, if one chooses precursors/legendaries carefully.) But that's exactly the reason for making items tradeable: so that those who have farmed (or hoarded) can sell to those who have more gold than patience. And whenever there's a market like that, there will always be middle-traders, offering the service of taking the risk of picking the right prices and of listing fees, in exchange for lower-coin costs on ingredients and higher prices on the sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > The legendary market and daily transactions beg to differ. Actually easily researchable on one of the many trading post websites with a history. As it stands, the more popular legendarys are traded at 1-3 piece a day (Twilight, Bolt, Dawn, Bifrost, etc.). > > > > I'd even argue that a majority of the precursors are being bought by legendary crafters who are then making a profit on selling the legendary afterwards. > > That is probably true, even if it's hard to tell who is creating them and who is selling from the TP-adjunct sites' data alone. However, we can see that there are plenty of people in the grey markets, paying 350-600 gold to others for the account-bound components and nearly all of the buyers are selling the resulting legendaries. (It's a pretty good profit actually, if one chooses precursors/legendaries carefully.) > > But that's exactly the reason for making items tradeable: so that those who have farmed (or hoarded) can sell to those who have more gold than patience. And whenever there's a market like that, there will always be middle-traders, offering the service of taking the risk of picking the right prices and of listing fees, in exchange for lower-coin costs on ingredients and higher prices on the sale. I'm usually someone who is absolutely for more trade and exchange, but as it stands, GW2 is already nothing but a huge gold farm. Farm gold for expensive skins. Farm gold for ascended gear. Farm gold for gems to buy account upgrades. Farm gold for paying people to run you through stuff. Farm gold to buy generation 1 legendarys. Farm gold to craft account bound legendarys. One of the main endgame aspects is fashion in this game. There is no reason to make gen2 legendarys tradable from a functionality standpoint. Gen1 work exactly the same and are cheaper. So the only thing this opens up is to make the skins less unique and more widespread. This directly devalues their worth and makes people even less encouraged to try or play different game modes or aspects of the game (no matter if they like them or not, it breaks up the monotony of only farming). Considering, as I had mentioned, that crafting most of the gen2s doe not take that long IF you can afford to buy all the tradable materials, I'm just not seeing it. People who want the gen2s can just buy all the materials and invest a minimal amount of time already. There is benefit to not having everything purchasable with gold (and ultimately real cash) in a game. Locking things behind content creates incentive to play the game. EDIT: typo and some clarification and wording Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoNS.3261 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Titan.3472 said: > Because it would impact 1st generation of legendary weapons market price down in the first place and boost all required materials prices up to craft the now tradable 2nd generation of legendary weapons now newly available for a new legendary weapons market. Impact would be on wealth redistribution across players will be based on the basic mats provided & sold by players and controlled and bought by market flippers. just no the main reason people like gen 2 legendaries except looks is that you cant swipe your mothers credit card and get them you actually have to work on them :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Ya know what would a great compromise.. is if you could buy a G2 legendary.. but don't get any of the predecessor skins. That way, for the people that just want the legendary weapon for looks or stat swap or whatever.. can have it.. but.. the people that have the precursors skins.. you know have famed them.. at least to that point.. they may never have made the legendary. but you they farmed for what they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Blade.3049 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Lol @ people who don't want Gen 2 legendaries to be sellable because they are supposed to be "legendary". The PvP and WvW crafting components are a JOKE for the legendaries. With your mindset, ANET should make legendaries be "legendary" for all aspects of the game and not just your little PvE. Heck why don't they require you to get Legendary rank in PvP to buy a certain component too. You need to do 1 reward track from WvW to get the gift of battle and you can buy all the other PvP components for like 1-2g. But if ANET made legendaries anything other than PvE focused the same people crying about credit cards and integrity of making the experience "legendary" they'd be the first to complain about making players do WvW or PvP at a high level to get a legendary. The credit card stereotype is just pathetic. The lack of incentive ideology is pathetic. Just stop. You force people to play the game in a linear fashion by gating things behind 1 facet of the game instead of how they want to play it on their own time. If people enjoy crafting legendaries and selling them what's the issue? HoT maps will become barron and desolate in the coming expansions making it extremely difficult for players to get HoT masteries requiring group content. Without masteries they can't craft the weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > There is benefit to not having everything purchasable with gold (and ultimately real cash) in a game. Locking things behind content creates incentive to play the game. Yes, I think we agree on that. Still, it's mostly moot: without providing a substantive reason for changing the status quo, it's unlikely that ANet is going to seriously consider the idea of making Gen 2.0 or 2.1 tradeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > There is benefit to not having everything purchasable with gold (and ultimately real cash) in a game. Locking things behind content creates incentive to play the game. > > Yes, I think we agree on that. > > Still, it's mostly moot: without providing a substantive reason for changing the status quo, it's unlikely that ANet is going to seriously consider the idea of making Gen 2.0 or 2.1 tradeable. > Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @"Blue Blade.3049" said: > > The credit card stereotype is just pathetic. The lack of incentive ideology is pathetic. Just stop. You force people to play the game in a linear fashion by gating things behind 1 facet of the game instead of how they want to play it on their own time. If people enjoy crafting legendaries and selling them what's the issue? HoT maps will become barron and desolate in the coming expansions making it extremely difficult for players to get HoT masteries requiring group content. Without masteries they can't craft the weapon. We've been hearing the HoT is going to die out blablabla for almost 2 years now. It started when Hot came out and PvE maps were challenging and continues up to today. Yet from an actual active player perspective, the maps have been alive and well ever since, especially the meta events which (except for VB which is run mor seldom) have at least 1 active map during off times and multiple active maps during prime times. On the contrtay, more and more people are going back to HoT after growing bored of PoF 5-6 weeks in. If you don't pve, then don't talk about things you have no idea about. You are mixing differnt aspects. No one here is debating if legendary weapons should be added to spvp or wvw. Me personally I wouldn't mind. This has nothing to do with making pve legendary weapons sellable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 If they were trade-able I'd be one of those people this thread hates so much and use a credit card. Just to defend us "credit card" people.... Some people don't have jobs or commitments and can spend hours, weeks on a game grinding for a weapon. Someone like myself who has a job, partner and child, it's much more beneficial to myself and my family to use 2 hours wage from work to buy these things in order to maintain a somewhat healthy personal life style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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