Time for some serious Mantra (almost) 3sec-only-for-activation-cast-spam talk

[Dark Schneider.7841]

Okidoki,

first most important question:

Is there really a game-breaking / op reason for this 3sec initial cast just to

activate Mantras on your skillbar?

Im a new player and only play Guardian at the moment, so

I dont know if other Professions have similar Utility Skills,

they have to activate before they can actually cast them.

- And have to be reactivated every time they die or change map...

 

Why cant it work like Spirit Weapon casts? Those are fine

 

I Only use the first cast Mantras and stay at two remaining Mantras

So I always wait for that 12/15sec charge recovery.

Because atm we have that annoying bug that occurs with the last remaining Mantra

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12248/annoying-mantra-bug#latest

 

And I never use the last Matra cast - its just not worse it

I have nothing against that long cooldown after the third use - Im totally fine with that.

But together with that 3sec initial cast + long cooldown = just nope

[leasm.1279]

That seems to be just another form of unnecessary limitation.

 

I mean.. Cooldown is a form of limitation. Combat cast time is another form of limitation. Resource (such as charges) is another form of limitation. And the case of mantras, annoyance is another form limitation.

[FnkyTwn.3875]

Mantras are an annoying and pointless mechanic. Forgetting to activate mantras in each zone and diving into combat has lead to quite a few deaths for me. It's a dumb system, and I agree that you never want to blow your last timer due to the long recast time, so you don't use it, and it just sits there. It's a pretty annoying system I wish they would revisit. Hell, maybe tie them all together, so that if you cast one mantra, it casts them all at the same time.

[OriOri.8724]

You pay an upfront cost for the ability to use fairly potent skills on an instant cast, meaning you don't have to interrupt whatever else you were doing to activate them once they are charged. The charge time is to prevent you from just blowing through the more powerful 3rd charge and then not having to risk a nearly 3 second channel to get your skill back again. Its a way to balance the skill. You have teh choice to use a more powerful cast, at the expense of finding time to recharge the mantra, or you can use weaker charges without needing to recharge the mantra itself again.

 

And to answer your other question, Mesmer also has mantras and is the only other class in the game to have them currently. But they work a bit differently for mesmer, faster charge time, at the expense of only 2 stacks of ammo, and no 3rd, more powerful, strike we can use.

[Dark Schneider.7841]

> @FnkyTwn.3875 said:

> Mantras are an annoying and pointless mechanic. Forgetting to activate mantras in each zone and diving into combat has lead to quite a few deaths for me.

 

Yeah , that happens way too often for me too^^°

Running into battle after arriving on the new map and be like: Time to kick in some Mant...Ahh, dang it! - Running in circles for 15sec and activating your Mantras it is..

 

 

[Ghotistyx.6942]

Mantras have existed from the beginning of the game and they have always had a significant cast time to pair with multiple instant cast effects. This is the nature of Mantra skills. If you don't like them you can always use any of the other skills that don't work as Mantras.

[Ghotistyx.6942]

Mantras have existed from the beginning of the game and they have always had a significant cast time to pair with multiple instant cast effects. This is the nature of Mantra skills. If you don't like them you can always use any of the other skills that don't work as Mantras.

[leasm.1279]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> You pay an upfront cost for the ability to use fairly potent skills on an instant cast, meaning you don't have to interrupt whatever else you were doing to activate them once they are charged.

 

I agree with this. But you already have a long cooldown as "upfront cost", meaning you don't want to blow the last charge because you'll have to face the long cooldown.

So, the inicial casting cost is unecessary, because that's just an annoying **extra** cost.

 

 

[Dark Schneider.7841]

> @Ghotistyx.6942 said:

> Mantras have existed from the beginning of the game and they have always had a significant cast time to pair with multiple instant cast effects. This is the nature of Mantra skills. If you don't like them you can always use any of the other skills that don't work as Mantras.

 

Naah, Im good, I use Mantras a lot. They are really nice the way they are.

Its just those mentioned situations which makes them clumsy sometimes.

I thought without that activation cast the whole game flow would be more fluid,

because I dont see a game breaking situation where it would make Mantras overpowered

[OriOri.8724]

> @leasm.1279 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > You pay an upfront cost for the ability to use fairly potent skills on an instant cast, meaning you don't have to interrupt whatever else you were doing to activate them once they are charged.

>

> I agree with this. But you already have a long cooldown as "upfront cost", meaning you don't want to blow the last charge because you'll have to face the long cooldown.

> So, the inicial casting cost is unecessary, because that's just an annoying **extra** cost.

>

 

Disagree. Mantra charges are instant cast skills. Those are in general really powerful skills since you can use them while stunned, and you can also use them while performing other actions without interrupting those actions. You are paying a charge time to get access to instant cast skills using the ammo system, which means you can blow through 2 charges of the same skill in fairly short order.

[Arcaedus.7290]

Main problem with mantras imo is that you have no incentive to use the final charge since it is essentially the same as the prior two charges in most cases but you'll be met with a very high CD. Also, mantra cast time should be 2.25s cast time like mesmer mantras.

[Snafoo.2869]

They should be 'pre-cast' or at least hold their cast from previous maps when zoning, this is the main annoyance.

While the long cast-time in combat is just a necessity of having instant/multi-cast utilities there's no balance reason for them to reset when you zone (there might be a technical reason however, but it's hard to imagine it's something that is impossible to work around).

[otto.5684]

> @FnkyTwn.3875 said:

> Mantras are an annoying and pointless mechanic. Forgetting to activate mantras in each zone and diving into combat has lead to quite a few deaths for me. It's a kitten system, and I agree that you never want to blow your last timer due to the long recast time, so you don't use it, and it just sits there. It's a pretty annoying system I wish they would revisit. Hell, maybe tie them all together, so that if you cast one mantra, it casts them all at the same time.

 

I have the same impression. The reason I do not play FB anymore is I do not want to keep casting mantras every time I change map, die, go into water or change instance. It is a pain in the kitten.

 

I think it was suggested before, mantras are stowed by default whenever any of these events occur.

[phor.7952]

I agree that the activation time serves absolutely no purpose other than to be annoying. The cooldown on the third cast handles the risk/reward fine on its own.

 

I see people saying you have to re-cast them when you go into water.

FYI: If you set the same Mantras for your underwater set as your land set, then they stay activated as you switch between.

[Ghotistyx.6942]

The effects of the final charge _plus the two charges before it_ are what are factored into the recharge time. Add up the effects of all charges and then compare that to the skill's recharge, and you'll find it's quite appropriate. The initial cast time is the combined cast time of all three charges, plus an additional bit that allows them to be instant cast and have charges. That's the value you're getting from that initial cast time. You pay the risk and time of casting before you use the skill so that the skill itself cannot be interrupted and has more flexibility than if it were a "normal" skill.

 

The zoning thing is definitely an annoyance, but I don't doubt its a technical issue, possibly with some balance implications that people wouldn't often think about. But as far as how the skill type works in game, its designed and working as it should. Usually, you get improved (or at least equal) performance if you blow straight through all your charges, so its really up to what you want out of the mantra depending on the situation. If you're traited for quickness uptime, then you will want to blow through Mantra of Potence, but not Solace, as that will give you the best uptime from those skills.

[leasm.1279]

When you blow a last charge, you have to face a long cooldown, plus the initial charge cooldown, plus 3s cast time.

 

So this is more or less 25s cooldown + 3s cast + 12s cooldown, and then you hace your 3 instant charges back.

 

This could easily be simplified to a plain 35-40s cooldown, with no need to initial cast.

[Aceofsppades.6873]

> @leasm.1279 said:

> When you blow a last charge, you have to face a long cooldown, plus the initial charge cooldown, plus 3s cast time.

>

> So this is more or less 25s cooldown + 3s cast + 12s cooldown, and then you hace your 3 instant charges back.

>

> This could easily be simplified to a plain 35-40s cooldown, with no need to initial cast.

 

The point of the cast time is so the final charge is **final use** of the skill and that you won't use it until you are out of combat. Also increasing cooldown affects its ability to be ready for each fight as a high cooldown can cause the cooldown to bleed into subsequent fights.

[Obtena.7952]

There isn't a problem with this ... it's a player's choice to blow the last cooldown to get the extra benefit. It simply means you have to THINK about using your skills instead of facerolling. The design is sound and makes lots of sense.

 

The only complaint is that mantras get screwed up when you zone or mount, etc.... that's definitely a QoL issue but it's very annoying.

[otto.5684]

> @Obtena.7952 said:

> There isn't a problem with this ... it's a player's choice to blow the last cooldown to get the extra benefit. It simply means you have to THINK about using your skills instead of facerolling. The design is sound and makes lots of sense.

>

> The only complaint is that mantras get screwed up when you zone or mount, etc.... that's definitely a QoL issue but it's very annoying.

 

That is not the part that is annoying. It is the initial cast every time there an instance change of any form. Casting 3-4 mantras in succession is pretty lame.

[leasm.1279]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Obtena.7952 said:

> > There isn't a problem with this ... it's a player's choice to blow the last cooldown to get the extra benefit. It simply means you have to THINK about using your skills instead of facerolling. The design is sound and makes lots of sense.

> >

> > The only complaint is that mantras get screwed up when you zone or mount, etc.... that's definitely a QoL issue but it's very annoying.

>

> That is not the part that is annoying. It is the initial cast every time there an instance change of any form. Casting 3-4 mantras in succession is pretty lame.

 

Yes. I restrict myself to only two mantras for this reason alone. And thinking about keeping only the elite one now.

[Mikau.6920]

I also think the cast time of mantras should be reduced. 1.75~2 seconds would still be very high, but not insane like is now.

 

I use mantras, but I aways avoid to use the last charge. The cooldown already is higher than the "count recharge", so I see no reason to the cast time be so high. What really punish when using all charges are the cast time, not the cooldown.

[Lalainnia.3598]

The only time the final cast of a mantra is generally used is if said player is about to die or needs that extra punch of damage or utility to finish off someone or set them up for a kill. Thus the whole point of it being the FINAL cast. All firebrand mantras are very powerful especially in combination with certain traits also it's generally a great idea to charge mantras under the effect of quickness. The original prob ppl had with mantras was that it had absolutely now aoe portion to it which sucked but was changed and anet didn't want to extend the aoe portion to far as they would completely replace shouts. As for the recharging on map swap like someone else stated its a outright Qol issue really hope it gets fixed because it's insanely annoying.

[kKagari.6804]

I rarely use the final cast in PvP, there is an excitement in seeing the recharge tick over during combat to use the second last charge again though.

[kinjiro.3251]

Minion necro has been dealing with this from game start. It is not that big a deal to have a 3 sec cast time you can easily do on the run. Just learn to adapt. I guess I don't see that big of a problem concidering all through I have mained a minion necro/reaper. I am used to it.

[Brutaly.6257]

well you cant really compare necro and FB mantra. From the top of my head (in office) the necro cast time on minions are like more than a second faster?

 

On my FB i can reach the center of every pvpmap before i get all mantras up for use. I am forced to use the mantras in order to get them up in time. When i play necro in pvp with minions i never once felt the same awkwardness.