A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[Cuddy.6247]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Aurelian Omenkind.2470" said:

> > This. Please, people, remember that this is a game and not real life. Real life has a very insistent way of encroaching on our digital fun. If my kid starts barfing in the bathroom, I don’t give a rat’s patootie about some fight I’m doing in the game, I’m going to run to care for my kid. That means I’ll die and become that annoyance you so desperately want to fine somehow. So I should be punished for taking care of a REAL problem?

>

> This argument would make any kind of sense if a few players abused the dead state. You can't possibly expect me to believe that half the squad has RL issues at the exact moment the world boss spawns. Plus, it has been proposed already to auto-port the player away to the nearest waypoint without the need to press anything.

 

When is half a squad staying dead at a world boss? I've ran through plenty of world bosses and _if_ people die, which is rare enough on its own, most of them can be resed back up almost immediately. The number of times I see these mass deaths are usually at the launch of major events, like the number of people who would stay dead at gerent for the first few weeks of HoT before getting their shit together.

 

This isn't a widespread issue. It's not even an issue. It's a non-issue that isn't happening.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > > Just don't rez em, keep pew-pewing and move on? That to tuff? :#

> >

> > If you'd read the thread you'd know that this isn't possible. Dead players cause events to fail and that's the problem. A random player that has some RL issues wouldn't be a problem, it's when half the squad wipes and refuses to use a waypoint when the boss is at 80% that is the problem.

> > Nobody even cares if someone dies at Shadow Behemoth. But if half the ranged squad is dead at Tequatl it means failure.

>

> Same with Shatt, and the WP is RIGHT THERE! So whats the fix? There isn't one because people will be what they will be, period. That's why I said what I said.....if it fails, it fails, move on, try again later. People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

 

The ONLY time I have EVER seen people dead at world bosses is on FULL MAPS where 30 dead afkers mean NOTHING.

 

On underpopulated maps this doesn't happen, because there is a dire need save for legitimate afk emergencies.

 

Is it lazyness ? Again yes absolutely. They are being lazy. But lets not pretend the event is going to fail. This is disingenuous.

 

Again. You know the event will succeed. You know there was never worry in mind. You just want to punish them for being lazy.

 

AND THAT'S OKAY

 

It is. It's understandable.

 

But don't hide it under a thinly veiled guise of "protecting the event/hard workers"

 

I would have some respect for some people in this thread if they honestly and unabashedly called out the people in question and wished horrible punishments. I would have NO problem with that.

 

What I do have a problem with is people hiding behind some righteous smokescreen.

 

Literally make a thread called "people who don't wp are scum and I hope they get crap loot for eternity"

 

At least be honest about what you want.

[Tachenon.5270]

> But the thing is, this proposal does not "punish" the new players, or the "players with real life issues." It is not saying "you are being a bad person, so where is a whap on the head." Instead, it is saying "you have died. You are no longer contributing to this event, and therefore do not belong here. If you didn't know that, now you do. So we're going to WP you away, where you won't be a bother to these other players that are still progressing the event. If you'd really like to stay, then you have the *option* of paying a small fee and be able to stay here, entirely up to you."

>

> How is that "punishing" anyone?

 

Your proposed fee doesn't address the root of the problem: 'dead' players. If there were no 'dead' players, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, some players are not as elite as other, and accidents happen. Still, perhaps a penalty fee should indeed be applied, not to the 'dead' -- being 'dead' is penalty enough -- but to those who, through inaction, allowed the 'dead' to become so. A small but not insignificant fee, perhaps in the form of a loss of event loot, be it porous bone or invisible shoes, should be applied to every player participating in the event who chose to not help prevent a 'downed' player from becoming a 'dead' player. They are the ones who, through their callous disregard for their fellow players, are truly not contributing. They, and not the hapless 'dead', are the ones to blame for any real or imagined loss of DPS and support, for they could have prevented the over-scaled situation from developing, had they cared enough to do so. This fee would of course be truly optional, as it could be avoided entirely by means of a simple act of compassion and kindness.

 

For an enhanced forum experience, read this post again in the voice of the world famous actor, John Huston.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Tachenon.5270 said:

>Your proposed fee doesn't address the root of the problem: 'dead' players. If there were no 'dead' players, there would be no problem.

 

Well yeah, but if players can't die then there really wouldn't be any challenge to the game at all. I think even the most carebear players in the game accept that death is a part of the game.

 

> Unfortunately, some players are not as elite as other, and accidents happen. Still, perhaps a penalty fee should indeed be applied, not to the 'dead' -- being 'dead' is penalty enough -- but to those who, through inaction, allowed the 'dead' to become so.

 

No, again, just being dead is no penalty at all. The penalty for dying comes from the WP fee. If a player is just waiting for someone else to rez him, then he's not paying anything. It's like saying that being suspended from work, with pay, is some sort of penalty.

 

If you're arguing that players should rez downed players, of course they should, but that's not always an option, since players can go almost instantly from downed to defeated in certain cases (particularly when they get downed multiple times in a row). It's a player's responsibility to keep *themselves* off the floor. The responsibility others have to *attempt* to rez downed players is tertiary to that responsibility.

 

Your argument here is like saying that if a driver runs through a stop sign, and crashes into another car, that this second driver is the one at fault, for not getting out of his way.

 

And if you were attempting sarcasm, remember Poe's Law, and that at least some of the participants in this thread seem at least this out of touch with causality.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

This poll is going to be far more telling.

[Zacchary.6183]

I choose indifferent. But if they are going to take out dead player scaling, they should also remove dead player participation as well.

[Haishao.6851]

I thought they removed dead players upscaling events some time ago.

 

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Haishao.6851 said:

> I thought they removed dead players upscaling events some time ago.

>

 

If they did, I am not finding anything on it on the internet.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> I choose indifferent. But if they are going to take out dead player scaling, they should also remove dead player participation as well.

 

Reasonable

[Haishao.6851]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Haishao.6851 said:

> > I thought they removed dead players upscaling events some time ago.

> >

>

> If they did, I am not finding anything on it on the internet.

 

I can't find anything either. I must have imagined things.

 

[zombyturtle.5980]

Anet did confirm that dead people dont upscale events anymore in a red post on the old forums. It was years ago. Unfortunately old forums are dead and the search function is worse than dead so I cant find it.

Apparently redditors proved they do upscale it so either that GM was mistaken or its bugged.

[Seera.5916]

While not waypointing after death when there's plenty of time to get back and the player is confident that they can make their way back before the event is over is a problem, players should not be punished for not doing so.

 

Remaining dead hurts players trying to loot, pick up event items, or dropped spawned weapons (like the various Elementalist weapons - ice bow, etc), or reviving downed players.

 

And to me, they should fix the dead keeping events upscaled no matter what is done with regards to players not waypointing after death. Given that blurb, I think indifferent should have been: Fix the problem (and then can add in the F button doing everything from looting, picking up items, to rezzing and giving rezzing to dead priority over rezzing to downed).

[Dreamy Lu.3865]

I cannot vote, because no option does match my thinking.

 

For me, "punishing" is not a solution, because there are different reasons why a player would not waypoint at death, and I believe that real trolling is only a small part of it. However, it is true that I am regularly angry because of dead players not waypointing during events, thus becoming spoilers to the fighting, up to a failed event in the worst case.

 

I believe it is difficult to find a solution. I remember someone suggesting an automatic sending to WP applying after a certain delay. It could be a good solution, but how to tune that delay? If the delay is too long, the event will maybe finish before they are sent to WP. So it serves nothing. If it is too short, the chance to get a revival - that is also a possible option depending on situation - will be cancelled and that too can be a spoiler to success of the event. That's not easy.

 

In this game, we cannot change the fact that such behaviour like not waypointing is mostly due: Either to trolls, doing it upon intention, or to players who simply do not understand the impact (because they are new to the game, or young, or whatever other reasons). The last ones, we can explain to them. They will learn and waypoint the next time. The trolls, we can't do anything.

 

I believe that real trolls are a minority only. If a measure would apply, that would be for all of us just to fix a few trolls? I am not sure that it makes sense.

 

On a side note: That's not only dead players not waypointing. That's also afk players, players not respecting instructions thus spoiling the strategy, and so on...

[zombyturtle.5980]

I also want them to fix the scaling if its factoring dead people as active players but im not indifferent to the question of punishing players.

[Ben K.6238]

Interesting there's a second thread on much the same thing at the moment.

 

This tax would be pointless because you could dodge it by hiding all your gold in BLTC buy orders. Same way you can dodge the WP fee.

[Ohoni.6057]

I don't think players should be punished for not WPing, but I do think it would be good if they were just waypointed automatically, with an option to stay if they want, and a negligible charge to make those two choices balanced out. The main issue doesn't have anything to do with scaling, it's with the corpses remaining on the ground and cluttering the battlefield.

[Healix.5819]

Dead players shouldn't be factored into scaling, but that's only a small part of it. Inactive players are much worse of a problem, but I doubt ArenaNet will ever change how scaling works. With season 3 bringing back hearts, there have been more AFK hotspots near events, forcing the actual participants to deal with it. Try doing a collection event solo for example and having to turn in 5x the normal items; or not and just turn in 1 and leave for the full credit.

 

Inactive players didn't originally scale events during the first year, but that was changed due to zergs killing bosses before they would scale. If they could only bring that logic back and have it kick in after a minute. Although it could be exploited, it's better than punishing everyone else.

 

For a proper solution to all of this, they need an actual AFK and contribution system. Inactive players shouldn't scale events, while those not really contributing should get a participation ribbon at most, rather than the full rewards they currently get. Likewise, drops should be removed from enemies and be based on a contribution meter, so if you kill an enemy solo, you would get the normal loot, whereas if you only contributed 10% worth on average, you'd need 10 kills. This is also the solution for not getting appropriate rewards for undermanning content, rather than the current solution of multiboxing to multiply your rewards. For the UI problem, dead players shouldn't be interactable unless specifically targeted, meaning they won't override the press F button by simply walking near them, which is a bigger problem when it comes to stuff like adventures, where dead bodies can block progress.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Ben K.6238" said:

> Interesting there's a second thread on much the same thing at the moment.

>

> This tax would be pointless because you could dodge it by hiding all your gold in BLTC buy orders. Same way you can dodge the WP fee.

 

True, but if someone wants to do that to save a measly silver every now and then, let them. Who cares? Seems like way more hassle than it'd be worth.

 

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> unnecessary words to respond to rhetorical questions

 

Your objection to players lying dead during events is that it makes it so _other players' bad behavior negatively impacts_ more active/legitimate/useful/whatever players in some way that is _significant enough_ to merit developer time and effort to develop and implement a fix.

 

But...if Joe Blow dies nowhere near an event and is forced to WP or pay a fee, then Joe Blow will be negatively impacted for the things that those other players are doing.

 

If Mr. Mom has to rescue his vomiting kid in the bathroom, then it's Mr. Mom who will be negatively impacted for things that those same other players are doing.

 

Both Joe Blow and Mr. Mom are innocent of the behavior your suggestion is trying to fix.

 

So your solution for people who behave badly at what you perceive as your _significant_ expense of time/effort--a claim that is extremely questionable--is to pass this _negative impact_ as an expense of cold cash along to other people whose concerns you've already decided are _not significant enough_. Because they don't affect you in any way you care about? (<---also a rhetorical question)

 

It's really...kind of circular and hypocritical.

[Ben K.6238]

Well, you have plenty of opportunity to do that when you're dead.

[DarcShriek.5829]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Nothing you've said is optional. You want to tax players who choose to wait for a revive rather than running back.

>

> So waiting for a revive instead of running back is **playing** the game?

>

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > It's a terrible idea to tax players for **playing** the game in a way you don't like.

>

>

Yes, it is playing the game. Why do you say it isn't? If you don't consider it playing, then why do you want to tax people for not playing the game? Can imagine Anet sending everyone in the world that doesn't play GW2 a bill for not playing?

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Bridget Morrigan.1752" said:

> But...if Joe Blow dies nowhere near an event and is forced to WP or pay a fee, then Joe Blow will be negatively impacted for the things that those other players are doing.

 

Nah, he'd be forced to WP anyway, or wait around possibly for hours for someone to wander by. This is just speeding up the process. And again, it's just a waypoint fee, people are talking about this like we're talking Griffon fees here.

 

>If Mr. Mom has to rescue his vomiting kid in the bathroom, then it's Mr. Mom who will be negatively impacted for things that those same other players are doing.

 

Nope. Again, if he doesn't die, then there would be no change whatsoever. If he does die, then he'd find himself at the nearest WP, no problem there.

 

>Both Joe Blow and Mr. Mom are innocent of the behavior your suggestion is trying to fix.

 

It's not a matter of "innocence," just as the initial issue isn't about "punishment." It's just basic maintenance. I'm sorry if I was unclear about that. Maybe I should have just gone with "people should automatically be WPed when they are defeated," but I wanted to offer players the *option* of staying put. The problem with the current system is that there is a COST to instantly WPing, and no cost for staying where you are, so it's actually counter-productive to do the thing most people should be doing most of the time. That's bad design. My proposal was intended to BALANCE these factors, to make it equally costly either way, so that it's a fair choice to make.

 

>It's really...kind of circular and hypocritical.

 

Not if you actually give it any thought.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Cuddy.6247 said:

> When is half a squad staying dead at a world boss? I've ran through plenty of world bosses and _if_ people die, which is rare enough on its own, most of them can be resed back up almost immediately. The number of times I see these mass deaths are usually at the launch of major events, like the number of people who would stay dead at gerent for the first few weeks of HoT before getting their kitten together.

 

Viscount of Candy Corn is an example. Tequatl is another. Triple Trouble. Chak Gerent and Wyvern Matriarch. The Tower phase in Dragon's Stand, and so on.

It's rare to see most dead because they usually use a waypoint. Unless it's a weekend, then the corpses hide the mini map.

You know all the boss events that require more intelligence than a monkey to play.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

 

That's why we get suggestions to make people less lazy. Unfortunately instead of discussing solutions to the problem it's all about how to defend laziness around here.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> I choose indifferent. But if they are going to take out dead player scaling, they should also remove dead player participation as well.

 

Best solution. However, isn't removing dead player participation a punishment?