Hungering Horde - Death Magic PvE support suggestion

[Blue Jinjo.2603]

Inspired by the ideas behind the bloodthirst proposal (seen here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/11990/proposal-bloodthirst-necromancers-alacrity) I decided to throw in my idea for a unique buff (aura) for necromancer in a currently underwhelming trait line: Death Magic. What emerged was ultimately an entire rework of Death Magic

 

Here is an easy to digest TL;DR image of my proposed changes: https://imgur.com/a/nn08B

 

I'd like to mention right off the bat that I tried very hard to come up with trait changes that would not interfere with pvp balance. To be specific; I wanted to avoid another bunker engie turret fiasco. So lets get down to the (written) changes, and I'll go over the thought process behind them. (working from the grandmasters down)

 

**Major Grandmaster 1**

Hungering Horde

 

(Aura) You and your allies deal more damage to foes with more health.

 

Foe health damage bonus:

100%-75% health: 10%

74%-50% health: 5%

49%-25% health: 2%

24%-0% health: 0%

 

This is the key change that I initially thought of. A unique aura for necromancers to bring to high end pve content. The thought process behind it is that there are lots of traits across many professions that deal more damage to foes at less health, so I thought a damage modifier that worked in reverse would compliment this trend. This will be the "empower allies" or "spotter" for necromancer to bring to group content. The numbers can be adjusted as needed (such as a 10% over 50 modifier for simplicity) but the idea remains the same.

 

**Major Grandmaster 2**

Necromatic Corruption

 

Minions take conditions from you and take 50% less damage from conditions. Minions apply poison with each attack and an additional stack for each condition they're suffering from.

 

Conditions Transferred: 1

Poison applied: 1 stack for 3s

Additional poison applied: 1 stack for 3s

Transfer interval: 10s

 

This replaces death nova as the condition grandmaster trait. In pve this should (ideally) open up a condition build for minions (when utilized with the other minion traits discussed below). In pvp this gives a reliable method of activating Putrid Defense. Additionally by having a set method of dealing conditions (poison on every attack, rather than transferring random conditions) This allows the balance team to easily adjust the amount of damage this outputs by changing the stacks\duration of the poison dealt.

 

**Major Grandmaster 3**

(unchanged)

Unholy Sanctuary

 

Regenerate health while in shroud. If your life force is above the threshold, your death shroud will activate if you take a lethal blow.

 

This trait is unchanged, but I'd like to mention it here that I wanted to create competition between the 3 major builds of Death Magic: Bunker builds, Physical damage builds, and Condi builds.

 

**Major Master 1**

Fatal Bonds

 

When you cast a Focus Skill on a foe within range, that foe becomes tethered to you. While tethered that foe takes more damage from all sources.

 

Initial cast range: 600

Tether duration: 5s

Bonus damage: 5%

Maximum tether range: 600

(exceeding this range breaks the tether)

 

The idea behind this is to bring another group oriented trait to the table as well as give players a meaningful reason to utilize necromancer's focus. In pve this should provide another unique group damage bonus to single targets. While in pvp this should be a relatively easy mechanic to play around considering the mobility and maneuverability of non-necromancer classes to get out of 600 range of the necromancer. Naturally, recasting this trait on a target will refresh the duration of it, not increase it.

 

**Major Master 2**

Flesh of the Master

 

Minions have increased health. Whenever you heal, also heal your minions by the same amount over the course of 10 seconds.

 

Health increase: 50%

 

With this change I wanted to make minions survivable in pve, but without making them overly tanky in pvp. So by applying healing over time, it allows minions to still be burst down in pvp. Where as in pve where there is an inherent damage cap on how much damage a minion\pet\npc can take at once. This allows a minions to be tanky without needing the necromancer to directly heal them to keep them alive.

 

**Major Master 3**

(unchanged)

Deadly Strength

 

Gain power based on your toughness. Power gain doubles while in shroud.

 

Gain Power Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 7%

Gain Power Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 14%

 

I felt that this trait was properly thematic enough to keep, and it would be strong competition against Fatal Bonds in pvp. Where Fatal Bonds has counter play and is less consistent for sustaining damage on a target, this enables bruiser builds who want to camp shroud and fight on point.

 

**Major Adept 1**

Reaper's Protection

 

When stunned, dazed, knocked back, pulled, knocked down, sunk, floated, inflicted with fear, taunted, or launched, cast Spinal Shivers on that foe.

 

Internal cooldown: 30 seconds, reduced by Spiteful Talisman

 

I don't like traits that proc on being disabled (no-one does) but A-net seems to like them, so I begrudgingly kept this trait, albeit with a slightly different functionality. The idea here is that typically when you're disabled by a foe that wishes to burst you, that foe usually has boons on them to aid in killing you (might, fury, quickness, ect). By removing said boons on the initial disable during their attempt to burst you it reduces the likelihood of their success. This is a pvp trait to be sure, and when utilized with Fatal Bonds it creates an "anti-burst burst" defense since it flips the tables and opens the opponent to being burst themselves.

 

**Major adept 2**

Dirge of the Dead

 

Your Minions move faster and attack more frequently.

 

Movement speed increase: 50%

Attack speed increase: 20%

 

This trait is meant to be used in conjunction with Necromatic Corruption to enable minion condition damage builds. Again, in pvp where minions are very fragile and easy to kill (note that death nova is no longer a thing that punishes killing minions) this should be inconsequential unless your opponents let your minions attack them.

 

**Major Adept 3**

(unchanged)

Putrid Defense

 

Take less damage from poisoned foes.

 

Damage Reduced: 10%

 

This is another unchanged trait. But here I would like to mention that the placement of this skill puts it in competition with Dirge of the Dead, meaning you can either have high pressure condition damage in pvp, or a "guaranteed" method of activating this trait with Necromatic Corruption. And with no more toughness from Flesh of the Master it forces a choice between bunkering down, or being able to pressure foes.

 

**MINORS**

 

**Minor Adept**

(unchanged)

Armored Shroud

 

Gain bonus toughness while in shroud.

 

Toughness: 180

 

**Minor Master**

Shrouded Removal

 

Lose conditions when you enter shroud.

 

Conditions removed: 2

 

**Minor Grandmaster**

Beyond the Veil

 

Whenever you leave shroud, you and your **allies** gain protection.

 

Protection (3s): -33% Incoming Damage

 

The minors are largely unchanged save for the replacement of Soul Comprehension and beyond the veil applying protection to **allies** instead of just minions. By moving Shrouded Removal to minor trait status it means that having Death Magic slotted gives necromancers a shroud effect when they: enter shroud, stay in shroud, and leave shroud. Allowing necromancers to fully utilize their class mechanic.

 

Well, if you got this far and read all that, I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate any criticism or suggestions you might have and welcome the discussion of death magic as a trait line, either in its current form, or what it could be.

[Swagg.9236]

* Hungering Horde

 

One of the things I tried to be careful about with my Bloodthirst idea was to keep full-on banner/Empower Allies buffs out of the mix—not the effects (the effects are good and strong), but the way that those traits apply such effects. Things like Spotter and Empower Allies are the most utterly boring things in the game despite how strong they are. The player doesn't do anything except equip a trait before combat, and then the game does everything for them. A 600 radius AoE is such a gigantic berth that it's probably the fault of your allies for somehow avoiding you rather than it is your fault for positioning yourself “poorly.”

 

I'm also not entirely a fan of diminishing returns on the bonus based on the target foe's health. Seems kind of like a shoehorned “down-side” that you felt was necessary for some balance reason. The buff might as well just be consistent. Every other buff provides consistent numbers.

 

However, big points for actually suggesting something like a unique party buff.

 

* Fatal Bonds

 

While this is a cool idea because it's another positioning-dependent and actively triggered effect, I'd much rather see the dumpster-fire weapon that is the Necromancer focus entirely re-worked into something far more enjoyable and natural to use. I'd just tie Fatal Bonds to something else and so as to spare the focus for a complete re-design. Don't try to force usage of a bad weapon via passives. That's just anti-fun video games.

 

* Necromantic Corruption

 

Given the tools available like Corruptions, Unholy Martyr and Plague Signet (the latter-most still being a faulty and underwhelming gimmick), this could be kind of cute, but it would ultimately be highly unreliable as well. Boosting minion condition DPS in PvE would be highly unreliable since you can't take corruptions if you take minions, and condition supply for things like Plague Signet (also something you would have to slot in over a minion) and Unholy Martyr (taking the current Blood Magic line would probably just end up being a DPS loss) would be constantly unreliable because not every boss or enemy (very few, in fact) provide a steady supply of conditions to transfer to minions.

 

My other (main) problem is that the trait is minion-dependent. I don't have an argument for that issue except that “Minions are boring; don't make me use minions. Make me use actual skills.” It's less of an argument and more of a desperate plea. If you slap a unique party buff into Death Magic, it *will* become meta. You have to understand then that the only personal DPS option you put into this trait-line is condi-centric and dependent on minions. *PLEASE* don't do this to Necromancer.

 

* Reaper's Protection

 

If you hate passively triggered effects (I do too), just get rid of them. Don't try to preserve or care about Anet's philosophies if you have a better idea. The conceptual idea behind the change is kinda interesting, but ultimately, most people will just walk/resistance/teleport/leap through chill and losing 3 boons without batting an eye. It would have zero impact in PvE, and would probably have no real impact in PvP either. People often open with CC options in PvP because it's super easy to do so (especially against a Necromancer). Chill and 3 boons removed won't negate any sort of follow up to the initial CC.

 

* Shrouded Removal

 

Hopefully you kept the pulsing condition removal while in shroud, because that is the only thing that really makes that trait good.

 

* Beyond the Veil

 

Probably... not really going to change much. This is basically the Death Magic equivalent of Anet's Necromancer axe buffs. We don't need any more of that nonsense.

If you wanted something that was actually different, consider changing the protection to an AoE barrier application.

 

* Minion traits in general

 

This is just my personal opinion (and one that I'm willing to bet is shared by most players), but Necromancer minions blow hard chunks. I'd rather just seem them entirely ripped from the game or at the least removed from core and made into a spec (although, I'd much rather see a spec that wasn't minion-centric anyway). Again, passive bonuses are an incredibly cheap and cheesy way to make poorly-designed actives into “desirable” assets in a game. I respect what you're trying to do and commend your design philosophies, but I'd personally just abandon Death Magic almost outright.

 

No profession needs more than one unique party buff, and a party buff could easily be contained within and supplemented by just a single trait-line (see Chrono's alacrity). I know that I ended up flooding over into Death Magic with my original Bloodthirst design, but after a bit, I started to think that that was a bit of a mistake. There's no reason why I couldn't have just fit everything necessary into Blood Magic.

 

Although, I guess, if Death Magic is the source of Necro's party buff, I guess it doesn't really matter. If it exists, it doesn't matter the source from which it's derived. I'd just rather it not manifest in the form of another Empower Allies contained in a line in which the only viable DPS trait would be entirely dependent on Anet's trashy AI units. I want to play the game; I don't want to watch a big circle and a bunch of dumb pets play the whole game for me.

 

>!Everything said, I like where you're coming from with the ideas. Also, I'm flattered.

[Meetshield.1756]

Can't read all that cuz you picked the Wrong Trait line man. Blood magic is the Healing Trait Line, and we can't give up Soul reaping cuz its reducing cooldowns. Our heal doesn't work without Both those trait lines and Scourge is obviously required for the initial cooldown reduction of F4, from previous Iterations of Scourge. So I read the first sentence you decided to rework Deathmagic, and I am sorry you missed the point of Scourge. Maybe there will be a Tank version of Necro, but currently Necro is not a Chrono it is a Druid, with no Grace of the Lands... So rework Vamp Aura into something useful that competes with Grace of Land 10% dmg increase and then we can possibly be viable.

[Blue Jinjo.2603]

> @Swagg.9236 said:

> I'm also not entirely a fan of diminishing returns on the bonus based on the target foe's health. Seems kind of like a shoehorned “down-side” that you felt was necessary for some balance reason. The buff might as well just be consistent. Every other buff provides consistent numbers.

 

The diminishing returns are thematic. I was thinking about minions (zombies) and how they would hunger for a fresh and healthy meal (the higher health the better). But I also see it as a way to balance between the fact that there are so many sub50 damage traits. Specifically if you utilized this trait with power necromancer's close to death. I didn't want power necro to be "too strong" in pvp since I feel that this is the excuse Anet says to themselves when making necromancer design decisions regarding pve. This trait is ultimately supposed to compliment all the sub50 damage bonuses with an above50 bonus. If everyone in a raid\fractal\dungeon party can get to their sub50 damage bonus faster, the happier they'll be.

 

> * Fatal Bonds

>

> While this is a cool idea because it's another positioning-dependent and actively triggered effect

>Don't try to force usage of a bad weapon via passives.

Not to sound snarky, but which is it? Is my suggestion an active or passive? However I do agree that I would like to see focus just be something better. This is merely my attempt to improve focus without actually having to improve focus.

 

> * Necromantic Corruption

>

> Given the tools available like Corruptions, Unholy Martyr and Plague Signet (the latter-most still being a faulty and underwhelming gimmick), this could be kind of cute, but it would ultimately be highly unreliable as well. Boosting minion condition DPS in PvE would be highly unreliable since you can't take corruptions if you take minions, and condition supply for things like Plague Signet (also something you would have to slot in over a minion) and Unholy Martyr (taking the current Blood Magic line would probably just end up being a DPS loss) would be constantly unreliable because not every boss or enemy (very few, in fact) provide a steady supply of conditions to transfer to minions.

>

> My other (main) problem is that the trait is minion-dependent. I don't have an argument for that issue except that “Minions are boring; don't make me use minions. Make me use actual skills.” It's less of an argument and more of a desperate plea. If you slap a unique party buff into Death Magic, it *will* become meta. You have to understand then that the only personal DPS option you put into this trait-line is condi-centric and dependent on minions. *PLEASE* don't do this to Necromancer.

 

Yeah minions are a left-over from guild wars 1. They really don't have a place in gw2, but Anet seems dead-set (pun intended) to make them a thing so I tried to streamline the traits for them to be as functional as possible. Another reason behind Necromatic Corruptions design is that when I play condi-reaper in pve I find my utility skills usually being: blood is power + corrosive poison cloud + [blank]. [blank] usually being whatever oddball utility skill is needed for the encounter. However sometimes you dont need a special utility skill, and you just want to push a bit more damage. So with this trait I figured you could take bone minions to push a little more poison damage with a condi build without intruding on your corruptions, and without going "full minion build".

 

> * Reaper's Protection

>

> If you hate passively triggered effects (I do too), just get rid of them. Don't try to preserve or care about Anet's philosophies if you have a better idea. The conceptual idea behind the change is kinda interesting, but ultimately, most people will just walk/resistance/teleport/leap through chill and losing 3 boons without batting an eye. It would have zero impact in PvE, and would probably have no real impact in PvP either. People often open with CC options in PvP because it's super easy to do so (especially against a Necromancer). Chill and 3 boons removed won't negate any sort of follow up to the initial CC.

 

Honestly I was thinking this also could trait could stunbreak for you, too. But that was after the fact, which is why it was not listed in my image, nor in my wall of text.

 

> * Shrouded Removal

>

> Hopefully you kept the pulsing condition removal while in shroud, because that is the only thing that really makes that trait good.

 

No, it doesnt have pulsing removal. Thats why I bumped it up to removing 2 conditions on entry. Ultimately a nerf since it removes 2 conditions over the course of 10 seconds, rather than 3 (or 4?). But now that its a minor I thought it should be over all a weaker trait since you "get it for free". Plus removing 2 conditions allows you to take off the cover condi in addition to the real condi you want to remove.

 

> * Beyond the Veil

>

> Probably... not really going to change much. This is basically the Death Magic equivalent of Anet's Necromancer axe buffs. We don't need any more of that nonsense.

> If you wanted something that was actually different, consider changing the protection to an AoE barrier application.

 

I didnt want anything different here, I just wanted it to at least be functional. Giving protection to your minions is worthless. And only giving protection to yourself as a grandmaster trait (even as a minor) is pretty lame. This is really how it should've functioned to begin with.

 

In closing I actually had power necromancer (reaper) in mind for these trait changes. Hungering Horde offers a substantial physical DPS increase across the party. Which is what necromancer needs right now in pve (a unique party buff). It took alot of pokes towards the devs to give necromancers a projectile blocker (CPC), but we eventually got it. So there is hope that we can secure a unique party buff for necromancer, too.