[Discussion] Shortcomings in Scourge's Design?

[Kinch.6490]

I want to preface this by saying that I feel Scourge is a step in the right direction for Necro, and I hope it encourages devs to allow the core profession to grow as well.

I also can't wait to play as the Scourge, as I have been unable to play since the end of July due to a major move I'm going through (now I'm just waiting on my gaming PC).

 

I'd like to begin this discussion by pointing out the following page, as it is generally what this post is based around:

[https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon)

 

In the table you will find on that page you will find the amount of weapons and weapon-skills each profession has:

**Guardian** has **14** weapon combinations and **40** weapon skills (and **3** profession skills)

**Revenant** has **7** weapon combinations and **25** weapon skills (they have less due to utility swapping, and abandoned underwater combat... making spear fill the role of two weapons in one)

**Warrior** has **21** weapons combinations and **49** weapon skills (and **1** profession skill)

**Engineer** has **4** weapon combinations (**+8** utility weapons without weapon swap CD) and **17** (**+40** utility-based... no utility lockout) weapon skills (and **5** profession skills), but no actual weapon swap

**Ranger** has **13** weapon combinations and **39** weapon skills (and **1** pet-based profession skill) and **2** swappable pets

**Thief** has **9** weapon combinations and **37** (**+3** if counting empty off-hand skills) weapon skills (**+2** profession skills)

**Elementalist** has **6** weapon combinations, **80** weapon skills (**+25** from conjured weapons... differ from kits in that they have a CD... but they can also be shared with an ally... no utility lockout), but no weapon swap (but a weapon-swapping profession mechanic)

**Mesmer** has **12** weapon combinations and **34** weapon skills (and **4** profession skills + illusions/phantasms that use additional skills)

**Necromancer** has **12** weapon combinations and **30** weapon skills (**+5** shroud skills on an extended "weapon-swap"... **+5** more from Lich on a long CD... both locking out utilities), and no pure "profession skills" since it's more fitting to consider shroud a 3rd weapon-swap that is locked out by duration and resource and sacrifices utilities .

 

**Scourge** has **15** weapon combinations and **32** weapon skills (**+5** profession skills.... **+5** from Lich on a long CD, still locking utility skills).

**Holosmith** has **6** weapon combinations (**+8** utility weapons with a minor "weapon swap" CD from the 5th profession skill... **+1** profession skill based weapon swap utilizing a resource mechanic) and **20** (**+40** utility-based... **+5** profession-based) weapon skills, but no actual weapon swap.

 

The take-away is that Engineer makes some sacrifices with engineering kits and replaces one of its profession skills when taking Holosmith, but gains an extra resource-based kit. However, the Holosmith's sword synergizes incredibly well with their new profession mechanic, as do the added utilities. This can be an argument against the Holosmith because it restricts build diversity... but Scourge isn't much different.

 

Scourge, on the other hand, is primarily condi-based. Necromancer only has one pure-condi main-hand weapon (this is underscored by Lingering Curse... a GM trait... only increasing Condi Damage when equipped with a scepter... while Engi provides the EXACT SAME amount of condi damage to themselves AND their group from a Master trait... I have no complaints about the Condi Duration, though, because that acts as a replacement for the usual "decrease CDs 20% for X"), and one utility weapon that has some minor condition application. The Scepter has the least amount of synergy with the Scourge's profession mechanic out of every single mainhand weapon, despite being our only pure-condi weapon. Our only other "condi" weapon has minor LF gain on its 2-5 skills (when traited), but most of the gain is on a non-condi auto-attack that is extremely slow (and weak), and is only effective when enemies are running at you in a straight line. Furthermore, the Torch doesn't synergize with the profession skills at all.

 

**TL;DR Scourges sacrifice the main reason for being on the short-side of weapon skills to gain profession skills similar to Mesmer or Guardian, but we get almost zero synergy to make up for it. This is why we see so many threads on the Forum and Reddit asking for buffs to Staff or Dagger. Our profession is already a DPS loss in Raids, making us unwanted. Back in Vanilla, we were unwanted in Dungeons for the exact same reason. Scourge can fix this, but not with the complete lack of synergy that encourages sacrifices to our DPS in order to use the very mechanic that is supposed to make us viable as either DPS or Support.**

 

PS: My apologies for any inconsistencies or the like in my post. I'm currently taking care of my 9 month-old son, and his mom is sick and contagious... so this took a while to draft up.

 

EDIT: TL;DR may have been too hard to read/notice.

[Asur.9178]

I get the feeling you don't understand, what appears to be, your favourite class at all.

 

Scourge was undoubtedly the most broken overpowered nonsense that WvW has ever been plagued with during the demo weekend.

 

The total number of weapon skills are irrelevant. Total usability and available number of skills DURING combat is what matters; and base necro itself, let alone scourge, is not lacking in this department.

 

Every single weapon does not need to have a synergy with ever single elite spec; easiest example: deadeye is purely power based and offers absolutely nothing for condi builds and weaponsets.

 

PS: You should stop being so melodramatic. Necro was not always as disliked as you make it sound. In fact, at some points in the game, necro vastly dominated over other classes.

[Teratus.2859]

I completely rejected scourge when I heard it's DS was being removed.. but having looked over it's traits I am noticing the potential for some pretty good condition damage..

 

The shades interest me.. in the way that they can be placed like a trap and triggered to cause condis etc..

I'm looking forward to playing with that mechanic now..

 

I've had a condi.. well hybrid Necro for a while and I've long thought that burning would be the one thing that would take a decent condi necro and make them far better.

I've been running Dhuumfire Reaper for that reason rather than chillbleeds which everyone says is better.

 

With Scourge I get more burns.. a lot more and also get more torment too and I get to buff my condi duration regularly with skills..

 

Granted i've not played the Scourge since I actively avoided the beta weekends because I wanted to avoid spoilers.

But the build I have in mind for next week i'm really excited about trying out.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Teratus.2859 said:

> I've had a condi.. well hybrid Necro for a while and I've long thought that burning would be the one thing that would take a decent condi necro and make them far better.

> I've been running Dhuumfire Reaper for that reason rather than chillbleeds which everyone says is better.

 

Well, bleeds are suitable for sustained damage, while burn are more oriented toward burst damage. Since reaper's and core necro's burn are not great, bleed was the answer. Scourge add some burn and torment without locking the necromancer into the shroud. This make the scourge more condiburst than the reaper which capitalize on it's sustained condi dps.

 

 

[Zefiris.8297]

OP, I think the problems you list are not actually the problem of scourge or necromancer. The number of skills is irrelevant, what matters is the quality.

 

The real shortcomings of scourge in PVE for example are currently only in three areas: The range on might generation is too short, there's no good way to get life force without using dagger, and barrier might POSSIBLY have too short a duration.

 

> @Asur.9178 said:

>Necro was not always as disliked as you make it sound. In fact, at some points in the game, necro vastly dominated over other classes.

 

Necro _never_ dominated over other classes in PVE, actually. Necro was always the worst at DPS. There were two months (in a five year old game) where Necromancer was at least very strong defensively in PVE, but that was nerfed very quickly.

 

Right now, the necromancer survivability is below that of a chrono, the damage is below that of any damage dealer, and support for boss fights is nonexistant.

[Kinch.6490]

> @Asur.9178 said:

> I get the feeling you don't understand, what appears to be, your favourite class at all.

>

 

And I get the feeling you aren't a Necro main, or you only play WvW. Maybe I should have clarified this is about PvE I just figured that talking about a single-target condi weapon sort of hinted at that, because Staff is the primary weapon for WvW and has no problems. Maybe you noticed that, but chose to make this about WvW because that's where Scourge's shine most due to the issues that I mention not existing there.

 

> Scourge was undoubtedly the most broken overpowered nonsense that WvW has ever been plagued with during the demo weekend.

>

 

And adding synergy probably won't effect WvW, because changing Scepter or Dagger to better fit it won't affect WvW as much as WvWers seem to think. Even revamping staff auto probably won't, because Necros don't even really use Staff auto in WvW... just marks.

 

> The total number of weapon skills are irrelevant. Total usability and available number of skills DURING combat is what matters; and base necro itself, let alone scourge, is not lacking in this department.

>

 

Everything is dying in WvW, and Necros are generally camping staff, there is plenty of LF, and thus usable skills. In Raids, where nothing is dying, there isn't enough LF generation. I don't know what you're trying to underline here aside from that.

 

> Every single weapon does not need to have a synergy with ever single elite spec; easiest example: deadeye is purely power based and offers absolutely nothing for condi builds and weaponsets.

>

 

This part makes zero sense to occur in this discussion, unless you are saying since Scourge is barrier-based it offers absolutely nothing for condi builds and weaponsets... because I'm talking about a condi elite and condi weapon-sets.

 

Actually, I'll just come forward and say that your Deadeye argument is the opposite of what I'm arguing. Necro's power-based weapons have better synergy with the Scourge's profession mechanic (because you can't use profession skills if you can't generate LF) than any of the condi weapons, when Scourge is a condi-based elite spec.

 

> PS: You should stop being so melodramatic. Necro was not always as disliked as you make it sound. In fact, at some points in the game, necro vastly dominated over other classes.

 

Dominated due to unintended synergies with Druid, and it was then nerfed in the same patch that said "we think Necro is in a good spot", and they didn't even mention it in the paragraph that explained the changes they were making. Are you're still talking about WvW, that's the one game-mode that we've ever been consistently good in. Epidemic wasn't even as much of an epidemic as people made it out to be, and it required more coordination than non-Necros might have thought, at least not when I was playing.

 

Do you even main Necro? You sound like somebody that is salty about Scourge being good at WvW, and probably one of the people that always complained about Epidemic. Careful not to stand in the red circles, and try not to steamroll the backline too much. ;)

[Kinch.6490]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> OP, I think the problems you list are not actually the problem of scourge or necromancer. The number of skills is irrelevant, what matters is the quality.

>

> The real shortcomings of scourge in PVE for example are currently only in three areas: The range on might generation is too short, there's no good way to get life force without using dagger, and barrier might POSSIBLY have too short a duration.

>

> > @Asur.9178 said:

> >Necro was not always as disliked as you make it sound. In fact, at some points in the game, necro vastly dominated over other classes.

>

> Necro _never_ dominated over other classes in PVE, actually. Necro was always the worst at DPS. There were two months (in a five year old game) where Necromancer was at least very strong defensively in PVE, but that was nerfed very quickly.

>

> Right now, the necromancer survivability is below that of a chrono, the damage is below that of any damage dealer, and support for boss fights is nonexistant.

 

I started off the thought as touching on the amount of weapon skills, but I guess the core of the argument was that we only have one true condi weapon (staff is a utility weapon with minor condi application, and an abysmal auto that needs a rework), and it has zero synergy with Scourge's profession mechanic outside of the fact that it's condi. One possible work-around is to run Scepter/Dagger--Dagger/Torch and weapon swap on CD to ensure you don't miss a single Feast of Corruption while capitalizing your LF gains in Dagger, and using Torch skills whenever they are up to minimize DPS loss on Dagger. Plus, every time you swap from Scepter you lose all effects from Lingering Curse (I don't know why the +150 Condi Damage isn't global, because it should be... it should also be greater... looking at the fact that Engi's Pinpoint Distribution is a Master trait for the same buff value, but also grants it to allies). I don't know if the shade skills will be enough to make the DPS-loss worth it. Necro needs a huge DPS buff as is, and I don't know if we're able to get it with the limitations.

[DTATL.9641]

Not entirely on the subject but I hoped that we would get a main-hand torch for Scourge rather than off-hand. Especially since the concept art for scourge does hold the torch in the main-hand. Having torch as a main-hand melee condition weapon would have been a lot better as we already have pretty good off-hands and because we lack a melee condi weapon. It's also hard to pick as it doesn't have any lifeforce generation on it since Scourge uses a lot of it. It's pretty fun to use at least.

[Kinch.6490]

> @DTATL.9641 said:

> Not entirely on the subject but I hoped that we would get a main-hand torch for Scourge rather than off-hand. Especially since the concept art for scourge does hold the torch in the main-hand. Having torch as a main-hand melee condition weapon would have been a lot better as we already have pretty good off-hands and because we lack a melee condi weapon. It's also hard to pick as it doesn't have any lifeforce generation on it since Scourge uses a lot of it. It's pretty fun to use at least.

 

I wonder if they played with the idea, and then dropped it because Torch is an off-hand weapon, not a one-handed weapon. It would be strange for them to allow it to be used in the main-hand.

[DTATL.9641]

> @Kinch.6490 said:

> > @DTATL.9641 said:

> > Not entirely on the subject but I hoped that we would get a main-hand torch for Scourge rather than off-hand. Especially since the concept art for scourge does hold the torch in the main-hand. Having torch as a main-hand melee condition weapon would have been a lot better as we already have pretty good off-hands and because we lack a melee condi weapon. It's also hard to pick as it doesn't have any lifeforce generation on it since Scourge uses a lot of it. It's pretty fun to use at least.

>

> I wonder if they played with the idea, and then dropped it because Torch is an off-hand weapon, not a one-handed weapon. It would be strange for them to allow it to be used in the main-hand.

 

That's probably true and it seems that they don't want to equip existing weapons in different slots. That said there are different PvE bundles that are main-hand torches.

Here are the two I remember. While they do lack a third skill it still shows that's it's not an entirely new thing.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Torch_(object)

[wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effigy_Fragment](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effigy_Fragment "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effigy_Fragment")

[Axl.8924]

> @Asur.9178 said:

> I get the feeling you don't understand, what appears to be, your favourite class at all.

>

> Scourge was undoubtedly the most broken overpowered nonsense that WvW has ever been plagued with during the demo weekend.

>

> The total number of weapon skills are irrelevant. Total usability and available number of skills DURING combat is what matters; and base necro itself, let alone scourge, is not lacking in this department.

>

> Every single weapon does not need to have a synergy with ever single elite spec; easiest example: deadeye is purely power based and offers absolutely nothing for condi builds and weaponsets.

>

> PS: You should stop being so melodramatic. Necro was not always as disliked as you make it sound. In fact, at some points in the game, necro vastly dominated over other classes.

 

If necro gets nerfed in WVW it will be unviable for pve.BEsides:I didn't get the feeling it was broken when playing in pve and it was much needed strength, considering its being outdamaged by other classes in pve and pvp.

 

[Nyel.1843]

I haven't played for a long time and plan to return and Scourge looks absolutely amazing. Why do you think it won't be good?

[Asur.9178]

> @Kinch.6490 said:

> Blah blah blah...

 

Nah, I have no clue what I'm doing on [necro](https://i.imgur.com/Vc7Ot3k.jpg "necro"). [Never](https://i.imgur.com/WEgdIu4.jpg "Never") played it...[at all](https://i.imgur.com/YaLGIu7.jpg "at all"). I'm only "salty".

 

Carry on with your unnecessary whining. I've seen enough.

 

> @Nyel.1843 said:

> I haven't played for a long time and plan to return and Scourge looks absolutely amazing. Why do you think it won't be good?

 

Honestly, I'd highly recommend not using the profession subforums (or actually anything except dev tracker and game updates) if you plan to continue enjoying the class(es) you play. You will see a lot of threads like these by certain types of players.

[Kinch.6490]

> @Asur.9178 said:

> > @Kinch.6490 said:

> > Blah blah blah...

>

> Nah, I have no clue what I'm doing on [necro](https://i.imgur.com/Vc7Ot3k.jpg "necro"). [Never](https://i.imgur.com/WEgdIu4.jpg "Never") played it...[at all](https://i.imgur.com/YaLGIu7.jpg "at all"). I'm only "salty".

>

> Carry on with your unnecessary whining. I've seen enough.

>

 

Yeah, ignore the actual arguments and keep talking about WvW where this issue doesn't exist.

And keep raiding on your Ele/Chrono main, or gimping your group that is willing to take the hit. ;)

 

> @Nyel.1843 said:

> I haven't played for a long time and plan to return and Scourge looks absolutely amazing. Why do you think it won't be good?

 

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to play as Scourge, and I clearly enjoy the class... otherwise I wouldn't be a Necro main... and I wouldn't have made this post. If you're running Open World, PvP, or WvW, Scourge is great (and Necro has always shined in all of those except maybe PvP, at times... I don't really follow that meta). The concern is that we are going to be in the perpetual "Necro? kick" situation we have always been in where competitive DPS has actually mattered. I'm just concerned about the synergy that doesn't exist between our only two (off-hand dagger is only as strong as the conditions that are on you) pure-condi weapons (including the elite-spec's own weapon) and our condi elite spec that could end up hurting our performance in a single-target Raid situation (and looking around Reddit and the Forums, I'm not the only one). The ONLY people who say that Scourge is going to be OP are WvW players, who are completely unaffected by this lack of Synergy, because they aren't shoe-horned into taking Scepter (a single-target condi weapon) for viable DPS... they camp staff and mostly gain LF from things dying and Staff (which only shines in WvW, and is generally useless in PvE).

[Nyel.1843]

Do we know if there will be another balance patch next week?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

We don't know for certain. At least as far as the new elite spec are concerned, yes, but any existing content has not been confirmed.

[Nyel.1843]

When will this most likely happen? Tuesday or Wednesday?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

When PoF launches.

[grave of hearts.7830]

My 2 cents

The staff would be in a real good place if the ammo system was integrated into it.

A staff is a caster weapon,it should have the excess power to dramaticaly affect an area,and i believe an ammo count of 3 for the marks wouldnt be an out of place.

It would bring it slightly below fire elementalist,which does affect the area quite dramaticaly but for conditions instead of power.

Also the technology for it is already in place,in the deadeye's rifle and other class skills.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Ammo system on Marks. That's certainly an interesting idea.

 

Would an un-used Mark vanish if a new one was placed under the ammo mechanic? That's how they work now.

[grave of hearts.7830]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Ammo system on Marks. That's certainly an interesting idea.

>

> Would an un-used Mark vanish if a new one was placed under the ammo mechanic? That's how they work now.

 

I think it should stay this way,otherwise it would be abused from guilds that usually fill tower walls with marks and then spam pulls.

It needs more burst,but not to the point to be opressive where it shouldnt.

 

[Lexan.5930]

actually yea if we could give the extra condi dmg from lingering curse (not the durration) to allies with it on, then maybe we could be more useful in raids. as a necro main, seeing "no necro" in dungeons and then fractals in core game, and recently being kicked from raids and fractals for being a necro is disheartening. Would love to see the devs really give us more party helpful stuff. Scourge is a huge step in that direction and i really hope people actually use scourge in game and accept us.