I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Rhanoa.3960]

 

> @Substatic.6958 said:

 

> Nah your not, i'm also perfectly aware of the top dps specs and rotations but only use it in raids, outside raids I vary between various hybrid builds that give good dps and plenty utility to give support and more importantly flavor to gameplay.

 

(ー。ー) zzz

 

[Rhanoa.3960]

> @Fermi.2409 said:

> > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> >

> > It's the **Therorycrafters** behind telling you how to play and trying to tell me how to play. Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

>

> The theorycrafters aren't telling you how to play, they're saying "these are the builds that have the highest possible damage, or provide the best support (while possibly maximizing damage)"

>

> >Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

>

> The "majority" (I'd love some sort of actual proof to back up that statement) use the listed builds because it's going to be the most effective at completing content. The fastest way to beat a Fractal or whatever is going to be by killing the mobs and the bosses the fastest. Thus, the builds that can deal the most damage or can facilitate the dealing of the most damage are going to be the most effective. Many people want fast clears, so that's what they trend towards.

>

> I'm willing to bet that the actual majority just runs whatever they think is fun or is good or whatever, since "the casual" is a large part of the game's demographic

>

>

 

You are correct and thank you for correcting me.

 

let's instead use the term **influencing** ~~telling ~~how you play. Please keep in mind **Influencing** others is very powerful.

 

All I read through that is FAST FAST FAST FAST!

[Dante.1763]

> @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > @Fermi.2409 said:

> > > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > >

> > > It's the **Therorycrafters** behind telling you how to play and trying to tell me how to play. Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> >

> > The theorycrafters aren't telling you how to play, they're saying "these are the builds that have the highest possible damage, or provide the best support (while possibly maximizing damage)"

> >

> > >Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> >

> > The "majority" (I'd love some sort of actual proof to back up that statement) use the listed builds because it's going to be the most effective at completing content. The fastest way to beat a Fractal or whatever is going to be by killing the mobs and the bosses the fastest. Thus, the builds that can deal the most damage or can facilitate the dealing of the most damage are going to be the most effective. Many people want fast clears, so that's what they trend towards.

> >

> > I'm willing to bet that the actual majority just runs whatever they think is fun or is good or whatever, since "the casual" is a large part of the game's demographic

> >

> >

>

> You are correct and thank you for correcting me.

>

> let's instead use the term **influencing** ~~telling ~~how you play. Please keep in mind **Influencing** others is very powerful.

>

> All I read through that is FAST FAST FAST FAST!

 

Its almost like players value their time, and want to do as much as they can in the time they have available to them. Sure not everyone plays that way, but it wouldnt surprise me if a great portion of the player base does.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Fermi.2409 said:

> > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> >

> > It's the **Therorycrafters** behind telling you how to play and trying to tell me how to play. Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

>

> The theorycrafters aren't telling you how to play, they're saying "these are the builds that have the highest possible damage, or provide the best support (while possibly maximizing damage)"

>

> >Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

>

> The "majority" (I'd love some sort of actual proof to back up that statement) use the listed builds because it's going to be the most effective at completing content. The fastest way to beat a Fractal or whatever is going to be by killing the mobs and the bosses the fastest. Thus, the builds that can deal the most damage or can facilitate the dealing of the most damage are going to be the most effective. Many people want fast clears, so that's what they trend towards.

>

> I'm willing to bet that the actual majority just runs whatever they think is fun or is good or whatever, since "the casual" is a large part of the game's demographic

>

>

 

The majority of players in GW2 play casually and don't give one hoot about 'max' dps, they care about playing casually and having fun, which in GW also means exploring builds (otgherwise you would have a shitty skill tree like WOW right) The majority of players also happily farm fractals without the need to rush fast fast fast - are they delusional? or just playing a game the way it was meant to be played (with freedom) . Its the raiders who think fast = fun and success because that's a goal of raiding.

 

Imagine playing a great RPG board game with your friends and complaining constantly to the GM because people are not rushing and optimizing. That sounds stupid to many, same problem different medium but it demonstrates how blinkered people become when playing online.

[Abakk.9176]

> @Dante.1763 said:

> > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > > @Fermi.2409 said:

> > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > > >

> > > > It's the **Therorycrafters** behind telling you how to play and trying to tell me how to play. Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> > >

> > > The theorycrafters aren't telling you how to play, they're saying "these are the builds that have the highest possible damage, or provide the best support (while possibly maximizing damage)"

> > >

> > > >Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> > >

> > > The "majority" (I'd love some sort of actual proof to back up that statement) use the listed builds because it's going to be the most effective at completing content. The fastest way to beat a Fractal or whatever is going to be by killing the mobs and the bosses the fastest. Thus, the builds that can deal the most damage or can facilitate the dealing of the most damage are going to be the most effective. Many people want fast clears, so that's what they trend towards.

> > >

> > > I'm willing to bet that the actual majority just runs whatever they think is fun or is good or whatever, since "the casual" is a large part of the game's demographic

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You are correct and thank you for correcting me.

> >

> > let's instead use the term **influencing** ~~telling ~~how you play. Please keep in mind **Influencing** others is very powerful.

> >

> > All I read through that is FAST FAST FAST FAST!

>

> Its almost like players value their time, and want to do as much as they can in the time they have available to them. Sure not everyone plays that way, but it wouldnt surprise me if a great portion of the player base does.

 

Anyone truly valueing their time wouldn't be playing computergames.

 

Computergames are by their very nature a waste of time.

 

The whole notion of optimizing to win a few minutes in a computergame is preposterous.

[Rhanoa.3960]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @Dante.1763 said:

> > > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > > > @Fermi.2409 said:

> > > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > It's the **Therorycrafters** behind telling you how to play and trying to tell me how to play. Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> > > >

> > > > The theorycrafters aren't telling you how to play, they're saying "these are the builds that have the highest possible damage, or provide the best support (while possibly maximizing damage)"

> > > >

> > > > >Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> > > >

> > > > The "majority" (I'd love some sort of actual proof to back up that statement) use the listed builds because it's going to be the most effective at completing content. The fastest way to beat a Fractal or whatever is going to be by killing the mobs and the bosses the fastest. Thus, the builds that can deal the most damage or can facilitate the dealing of the most damage are going to be the most effective. Many people want fast clears, so that's what they trend towards.

> > > >

> > > > I'm willing to bet that the actual majority just runs whatever they think is fun or is good or whatever, since "the casual" is a large part of the game's demographic

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You are correct and thank you for correcting me.

> > >

> > > let's instead use the term **influencing** ~~telling ~~how you play. Please keep in mind **Influencing** others is very powerful.

> > >

> > > All I read through that is FAST FAST FAST FAST!

> >

> > Its almost like players value their time, and want to do as much as they can in the time they have available to them. Sure not everyone plays that way, but it wouldnt surprise me if a great portion of the player base does.

>

> Anyone truly valueing their time wouldn't be playing computergames.

>

> Computergames are by their very nature a waste of time.

>

>

 

A statement like this is nothing more than subjective.

[Fermi.2409]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> The majority of players in GW2 play casually and don't give one hoot about 'max' dps, they care about playing casually and having fun

 

I'd argue that almost all players play for the sake of having fun, seeing how it's a video game and all.

 

>which in GW also means exploring builds (otgherwise you would have a kitten skill tree like WOW right)

 

Speak for yourself. I don't really care about my build at all, I just pick one and leave it there and then just enjoy playing the character.

 

>The majority of players also happily farm fractals without the need to rush fast fast fast - are they delusional?

 

I don't really feel the need to rush through fractals, as long as things go smoothly. Yet at the same time all of my characters are running full Berserker gear and most-of-the-way optimal builds. Generally, spending 20 minutes on a fight that can be done in 5 isn't all that fun, but if it takes 7-10 and goes smoothly the marjority of people aren't going to complain.

 

>or just playing a game the way it was meant to be played (with freedom).

 

"The way the game is meant to be played" is with freedom, that's correct. People have the freedom to pick a more optimized playstyle if that's what they find fun.

 

>Its the raiders who think fast = fun and success because that's a goal of raiding.

 

People think fast = fun because that's what they find fun. People enjoy being good at things or enjoy seeing the reward for improving themselves, which can often come about in faster/smoother runs .

 

>Imagine playing a great RPG board game with your friends and complaining constantly to the GM because people are not rushing and optimizing. That sounds stupid to many, same problem different medium but it demonstrates how blinkered people become when playing online.

 

Generally when people play with their friends, they find enjoyment in similar/the same things. Therefore, no one is going to complain because a premade group will most likely go in with the same mindset. That's completely different from when you end up in pugs with PHIW McGee who is running a Nomad Staff guardian and he ends up with 4 people who all just want a fast, smooth run

 

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> Anyone truly valueing their time wouldn't be playing computergames.

>

> Computergames are by their very nature a waste of time.

>

> The whole notion of optimizing to win a few minutes in a computergame is preposterous.

 

"Computer games" is two words. And people can value the ability to get their daily dungeons done faster to be able to spend more time doing things they enjoy more, it's far from "preposterous"

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> >Imagine playing a great RPG board game with your friends and complaining constantly to the GM because people are not rushing and optimizing. That sounds stupid to many, same problem different medium but it demonstrates how blinkered people become when playing online.

>

> Generally when people play with their friends, they find enjoyment in similar/the same things. Therefore, no one is going to complain because a premade group will most likely go in with the same mindset. That's completely different from when you end up in pugs with PHIW McGee who is running a Nomad Staff guardian and he ends up with 4 people who all just want a fast, smooth run

 

Noone is talking about a group of like minded people (obviously thats a moot point) We are talking about people in this thread saying that the raiding mentality is 'best' for a non raid scenario, when in fact the majority of the game demographic don't think that way i.e the majority is casual, adults and don't give a frank about raids. The minority of raiders obsess over dps because that's the what they have learned (and not unlearned yet from previous raiding experiences by the looks of it)

 

Why do you think Anet offers such a broad skill range? clue its not to build glass cannons alone.

 

[MithranArkanere.8957]

DPS meters will be useless until they start counting also control and support.

[Fermi.2409]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

We are talking about people in this thread saying that the raiding mentality is 'best' for a non raid scenario

 

"Raiding mentality" (meta DPS/support builds/gear) is objectively the best at completing content, yes.

 

>when in fact the majority of the game demographic don't think that way

 

They can think whatever they want, the fact of the matter is that "the meta" is the most effective way to complete content. Just because some people don't enjoy it doesn't meant hat it isn't the best.

 

>The minority of raiders obsess over dps because that's the what they have learned (and not unlearned yet from previous raiding experiences by the looks of it)

 

The minority of raiders "obsess" over DPS because that's what they enjoy. Apparently you're looking down on people for doing what they enjoy, which is honestly pretty sad.

 

Nice way to ignore everything else, though.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Fermi.2409 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> We are talking about people in this thread saying that the raiding mentality is 'best' for a non raid scenario

>

> "Raiding mentality" (meta DPS/support builds/gear) is objectively the best at completing content, yes.

>

> >when in fact the majority of the game demographic don't think that way

>

> They can think whatever they want, the fact of the matter is that "the meta" is the most effective way to complete content. Just because some people don't enjoy it doesn't meant hat it isn't the best.

>

> >The minority of raiders obsess over dps because that's the what they have learned (and not unlearned yet from previous raiding experiences by the looks of it)

>

> The minority of raiders "obsess" over DPS because that's what they enjoy. Apparently you're looking down on people for doing what they enjoy, which is honestly pretty sad.

>

> Nice way to ignore everything else, though.

 

they can obsess all they want thats cool, the issue is thinking others should do the same.

[Abakk.9176]

> @Fermi.2409 said:

> The minority of raiders "obsess" over DPS because that's what they enjoy. Apparently you're looking down on people for doing what they enjoy, which is honestly pretty sad.

 

Raiders can like what they want. It's everybodies 'right' to enjoy what they want.

 

But not by stepping on other people to get what they want. Because THAT is even more sad.

[Fossilized Amber.1352]

Seems like a player I wouldn't want to have on my team. He or she is blaming individual members (you, in this case), rather than working with the team to stay alive

[plushiesoda.8150]

Deleted in protest of anet leaving support ticket #7495730 without answer since October 10th 2019. It's sad how if this were a money-related issue you'd have answered within a couple of hours. At this point I'm not even mad, but disappointed by the mediocrity displayed by your community managers.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > > > @Substatic.6958 said:

> > > > The problem isn't the DPS meter. It's the **extremely** bad pve class balance.

> > >

> > > It's the players fault not the developers.

> > >

> > > It's the **Therorycrafters** behind telling you how to play and trying to tell me how to play. Sadly, **Majority** rules subjecting themselves to these viable META Builds all because folks want to have cookie cutter builds.

> > >

> > > Don't give me this L2P argument either, if you are even thinking it. Many of us are past that and now.

> >

> > How is that the theorycrafters' fault? They only figure out what's optimal. And people stick with it because, you know, it's optimal. It happens in every game and it's fine. The only with PvE balance in GW2 is the total domination of the druid/chrono/cps trinity when it comes to support.

>

> You proved my point by agreeing to go along with what Theroycrafters have put it together.

> Call it Optimal or Viable. However, we are still continue to be given the same OPTIONS to how we should play our Professions viable or not.

> So my fun is playing how I want with whatever build of my choosing.

 

So basically you're saying the fault is that other players prefer to play something different than you?

[Feanor.2358]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @Fermi.2409 said:

> > The minority of raiders "obsess" over DPS because that's what they enjoy. Apparently you're looking down on people for doing what they enjoy, which is honestly pretty sad.

>

> Raiders can like what they want. It's everybodies 'right' to enjoy what they want.

>

> But not by stepping on other people to get what they want. Because THAT is even more sad.

 

The thing is, if they're "stepping on you", you have already stepped on them. It's a multiplayer game and the meta, the efficient way to play, encompasses the whole party. By joining a meta party with a non-meta build, you're already getting in the way of their fun. You have zero moral right to be upset, because *everything* you're upset about is equally valid in the other way. You want people to accept your way? Well, how about starting by accepting theirs first?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Substatic.6958 said:

> In this game its 30-50%, and many non condition specs are pure trash.

 

Using Chrono+Druid+cPS in the team means the other two DPS builds deal *TRIPLE* damage (200% more damage). In other words, assuming pure DPS builds without damage buffs, those two guys in a team of five will do more damage than five pure DPS builds... while also having the defensive buffs and heals that those three provide.

 

A Chrono+Druid+cPS+Tempest+Daredevil (an example) composition will deal more damage than 5 Daredevils or 5 Tempests, while also surviving better.

 

If you go to the DPS golem as a Tempest or Dragonhunter or Daredevil or any other DPS build and try to see your DPS numbers without buffs you will realize that the actual DPS of all those builds is pathetic, even a Staff Tempest on large hitboxes deals pitiful damage on its own without the overload of damage buffs that this game has.

 

Then, thanks to this massive powercreep, the bosses need to be designed with those buffs in mind, otherwise they'd melt in a couple rotations (remember +200% damage) which makes the buff builds mandatory.

 

As a side exercise get all the DPS builds and try hitting the golems WITHOUT any buffs, other than your own buffs, you will notice the actual difference between builds and that's how they balance the damage in this game, based on how much each build does WITHOUT buffs from others. You will find out that builds that are top DPS aren't top DPS anymore.

[Azoqu.8917]

> @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

> DPS meters will be useless until they start counting also control and support.

 

Protip: They count boon uptime, healing, damage taken, damage done (OMG DPS), what skills were used, when you go down, when you die, mechanics failed, ressing. About the only think they don't count is the exact amount of CC damage people do so you might have me there (though you can look at the logs to see who used CC skills when they needed to be used).

[Carighan.6758]

Well, what DPS meters have done to the "endgame" is actually have one. If all I had to go on was blindly prodding at ideas and counting pixels vs seconds passed on my screen to figure out what deals more overall damage than something else, I don't think I could motivate myself to even desire any "difficult" content in Guild Wars 2. There'd be no sensible way to judge my improvements so I couldn't actually get better at what I do.

 

Now, it seems however that some people mind the "attitude" it apparently has led to?

 

To which I have to wonder: Where were you before DPS meters? Did you genuinely prefer getting kicked over not having 300 LIs or 22k AP over getting kicked over not doing 35k DPS? I mean the latter at least has a passing resemblance to actual ability as a player, so as silly as it is to just blindly kick over it, it is much preferable to the previous reasons people would just kick over.

 

And it happened just as much. Elitists existed **long** before DPS meters.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> But not by stepping on other people to get what they want. Because THAT is even more sad.

 

Exactly, why force your terrible build on me? Why step on my idea of fun and what I want by bringing a non-optimal, non-meta build in my group?

[Panda.1967]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> To which I have to wonder: Where were you before DPS meters? Did you genuinely prefer getting kicked over not having 300 LIs or 22k AP over getting kicked over not doing 35k DPS? I mean the latter at least has a passing resemblance to actual ability as a player, so as silly as it is to just blindly kick over it, it is much preferable to the previous reasons people would just kick over.

>

> And it happened just as much. Elitists existed **long** before DPS meters.

 

I feel it's worth noting... prior to DPS meters, I personally NEVER ONCE got kicked from a group, never personally saw any of the arbitrary requirements to join groups, never once got asked to provide proof of kills or anything of the like. Never even got harassed over my builds. However, as soon as DPS meters showed up I started getting denied from groups left and right simply because I'm not running a meta build. This happened so frequently that I gave up on finding groups for endgame content. I havn't got to do any endgame since DPS meters were added. I can't even find groups to run old out dated dungeons to get some armor/weapon skins anymore. To make matters worse, all my friends have quit, so I don't even have the option of running content with people I know. I've tried joining other guilds, and so far my experiences have been finding out that most of the people in the guilds I joined are entitled jerks who, go figure, won't run any content with you unless you run their approved meta builds. And yes, this happened when I joined guilds that advertise as "casual guilds".

 

So, in my experience, DPS meters have caused a lot of harm and practically ruined the game. Before I had no issues finding parties, now i can't get a group for anything unless I give in and switch to a fucking meta build. Which will **NEVER** happen. I do not enjoy meta builds.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Panda.1967 said:

> > @Carighan.6758 said:

> > To which I have to wonder: Where were you before DPS meters? Did you genuinely prefer getting kicked over not having 300 LIs or 22k AP over getting kicked over not doing 35k DPS? I mean the latter at least has a passing resemblance to actual ability as a player, so as silly as it is to just blindly kick over it, it is much preferable to the previous reasons people would just kick over.

> >

> > And it happened just as much. Elitists existed **long** before DPS meters.

>

> I feel it's worth noting... prior to DPS meters, I personally NEVER ONCE got kicked from a group, never personally saw any of the arbitrary requirements to join groups, never once got asked to provide proof of kills or anything of the like. Never even got harassed over my builds. However, as soon as DPS meters showed up I started getting denied from groups left and right simply because I'm not running a meta build. This happened so frequently that I gave up on finding groups for endgame content. I havn't got to do any endgame since DPS meters were added. I can't even find groups to run old out dated dungeons to get some armor/weapon skins anymore. To make matters worse, all my friends have quit, so I don't even have the option of running content with people I know. I've tried joining other guilds, and so far my experiences have been finding out that most of the people in the guilds I joined are entitled jerks who, go figure, won't run any content with you unless you run their approved meta builds. And yes, this happened when I joined guilds that advertise as "casual guilds".

>

> So, in my experience, DPS meters have caused a lot of harm and practically ruined the game. Before I had no issues finding parties, now i can't get a group for anything unless I give in and switch to a kitten meta build. Which will **NEVER** happen. I do not enjoy meta builds.

 

Sorry, I'm not buying that. I've seen (and being subjected to) elitism before dps meters, on numerous occasions. If anything, their introduction consistently lowered these experiences for me, partially because I was already improving my skill by that time. But the stark contrast you're describing is simply unbelievable. If you're bad enough to get kicked now, you surely would have been kicked from the meta groups before, too. Chances are, you never actually tried to speed-run dungeons for instance. And that's the only reason why you haven't seen this behavior before. They had it all - strict party composition, AP requirements, kicks for poor performance, take your pick. Literal *years* before the introduction of dps meters.

 

You can simply do what you have been doing before that and stay away from meta parties. Not hard, right?

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

> @Panda.1967 said:

> > @Carighan.6758 said:

> > To which I have to wonder: Where were you before DPS meters? Did you genuinely prefer getting kicked over not having 300 LIs or 22k AP over getting kicked over not doing 35k DPS? I mean the latter at least has a passing resemblance to actual ability as a player, so as silly as it is to just blindly kick over it, it is much preferable to the previous reasons people would just kick over.

> >

> > And it happened just as much. Elitists existed **long** before DPS meters.

>

> I feel it's worth noting... prior to DPS meters, I personally NEVER ONCE got kicked from a group, never personally saw any of the arbitrary requirements to join groups, never once got asked to provide proof of kills or anything of the like. Never even got harassed over my builds. However, as soon as DPS meters showed up I started getting denied from groups left and right simply because I'm not running a meta build. This happened so frequently that I gave up on finding groups for endgame content. I havn't got to do any endgame since DPS meters were added. I can't even find groups to run old out dated dungeons to get some armor/weapon skins anymore. To make matters worse, all my friends have quit, so I don't even have the option of running content with people I know. I've tried joining other guilds, and so far my experiences have been finding out that most of the people in the guilds I joined are entitled jerks who, go figure, won't run any content with you unless you run their approved meta builds. And yes, this happened when I joined guilds that advertise as "casual guilds".

>

> So, in my experience, DPS meters have caused a lot of harm and practically ruined the game. Before I had no issues finding parties, now i can't get a group for anything unless I give in and switch to a kitten meta build. Which will **NEVER** happen. I do not enjoy meta builds.

 

What about AP requirements and gear-ping? I remember having people in dungeon pug-groups that would initiate a kick against anyone below xk AP even if the lfg didn't state any AP requirement. It was a widely spread practice to instantly kick anyone who doesn't meet a certain AP threshold. Personally I never had to ping gear, but that's because I avoided such groups. Then came raids and with them the requirement to ping a certain amount of kill-proofs.

 

Before DPS meters you would get kicked as soon as someone notices that you're not running the exact meta build. And the meta build was whatever pulled the highest golem-numbers. Now, with DPS meters, it became possible (in theory) to run whatever build you want as long as you still do your job. As a damage dealer this means dealing >x kdps, as a support this means having almost full uptime on the buffs you're supposed to give, as a healer this means keeping the group >90% life most of the time, etc. All of these are figures that can be read from a DPS meter, not just the DPS.

[Maunzi.3764]

I like DPS meters. It makes me look at my results in context, helps me improve, and always makes a smile when I surprise someone that thinks my class is shit.

 

But I don't like many people that _use_ DPS meters. They tend to be very toxic, spamming the numbers around to bash others, usually to justify their own kitteny performance. I usually roll my eyes when somebody starts talking about DPS meters in a PUG, because the results will involve toxicity, whining, blame games, and nothing productive for anyone.

 

Exception: Training runs where the trainer uses the DPS meter to give feedback. Those are really worth it, and I have seen people improve so much from non-toxic, non-whiny DPS feedback. Sadly, such feedback is rarely given in pugs - it's just "me bigger than u" posturing.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> The thing is, if they're "stepping on you", you have already stepped on them.

 

Whiny people joining a below-80 dungeon run and crying about the DPS of the people inside are not "stepped on" by the evil below-80s they joined. Sorry.