I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> lol well i'm not trying to communicate much apart from pointing out some well known behavioral issues. You also seem to think its about objective data, but that wasn't the point, is about observation, control and appropriate evaluation.

 

Let's try again:

Basic idea:

DPS meter provides objective data based on combat. Why should that be banned? It's, quite literally, a recap of what actually took place in combat.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @Cristalyan.5728 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> >

> > Uhm if a player **joins** a group they **automatically give consent** since the dps they do is not private data, this has been stated and confirmed by Arenanet Devs.

>

> LOL ! This is one of the most hypocritical statements coming from an official. If the statement is TRUE, that means (for example) that by **joining** ANet, any employee **automatically give consent** to share his home / bank account/ wife with the others :3.

This comparison is hilariously bad. Can we have more of that quality?

[vesica tempestas.1563]

iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

 

and if you are 'really' interested : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/802050/what-is-opinionated-software

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

>

> and if you are 'really' interested : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/802050/what-is-opinionated-software

 

Combat Meters pull unbiased raw data ie DPS, Heaing, Boon Upkeep, Skill use, Mechanics Succedes, Mechanics Failed, etc.

 

Each player/class have roles, those roles have an acceptable range of performance that need to be achieved.

 

Combat Meters display all information related to combat encounters in a easy to read UI. Again unbiased raw data.

 

Using the easy to read UI to extrapolate if players/roles fall within the range of acceptable tolerances for that Players role in the group, be it DPS, Boons, Healing, or Mechanics.

 

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

 

A DPS meter being bad is not "clear", it's opinion.

 

Those broader concepts are simply a *tool* you are trying to use to support your *bias* against DPS meters.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

> >

> > and if you are 'really' interested : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/802050/what-is-opinionated-software

>

> Combat Meters pull unbiased raw data ie DPS, Heaing, Boon Upkeep, Skill use, Mechanics Succedes, Mechanics Failed, etc.

>

> Each player/class have roles, those roles have an acceptable range of performance that need to be achieved.

>

> Combat Meters display all information related to combat encounters in a easy to read UI. Again unbiased raw data.

>

> Using the easy to read UI to extrapolate if players/roles fall within the range of acceptable tolerances for that Players role in the group, be it DPS, Boons, Healing, or Mechanics.

>

 

which has nothing to do with what i was talking about. Again, its about appropriate observation in a controlled environment, this is not what a meter in a mmorpg is.

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

>

> A DPS meter being bad is not "clear", it's opinion.

>

> Those broader concepts are simply a *tool* you are trying to use to support your *bias* against DPS meters.

 

lol well ofc im arguing a side, and i'm offering hard facts as to why its bad, if you choose not to read anything but attack people then thats your loss. And it is perfectly clear, observation effects and bias are real side effects from measuring tools unless in a controlled environment - and a mmorpg is not that.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > @lmaogg.7325 said:

> > welcome to the endgame of elitist. Good thing I am a wvw-er. Enjoy your toxicity pve-rs.

>

> Contributes nothing to the conversation., go back to WvW.

 

Actually, this does affect WvW, my main area of gameplay. When ARC first came out, a few people started using it, even some leaders. Many of these folks were very nice people, but they turned into jerks afterwards. It also affected gameplay as people started trying to up their dps now that they had this new tool that allowed them to spy on everyone. This caused some chaos, lots of arguments, yadda yadda. Eventually, it was seen for what it was, that ARC was influencing people in a negative way, very flawed at estimating other peoples dps as WvW relies on more than just raw damage, and the pendulum swung back to less damaging meta. You'll still here some people pipe up about how everyone's dps sucks; they have ARC; they can see what you're doing.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

> > >

> > > and if you are 'really' interested : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/802050/what-is-opinionated-software

> >

> > Combat Meters pull unbiased raw data ie DPS, Heaing, Boon Upkeep, Skill use, Mechanics Succedes, Mechanics Failed, etc.

> >

> > Each player/class have roles, those roles have an acceptable range of performance that need to be achieved.

> >

> > Combat Meters display all information related to combat encounters in a easy to read UI. Again unbiased raw data.

> >

> > Using the easy to read UI to extrapolate if players/roles fall within the range of acceptable tolerances for that Players role in the group, be it DPS, Boons, Healing, or Mechanics.

> >

>

> which has nothing to do with what i was talking about. Again, its about appropriate observation in a controlled environment, this is not what a meter in a mmorpg is.

>

 

All the Meters do is visualize raw data, nothing more nothing less, the link you posted doesn't help your argument at all since dps Meters don't guide or force players to do anything, or force players to do certain actions, all it does is display information, nothing more nothing less, the Meters don't force people to kick players they don't force them to keep players, again all it does is visualize data.

 

Again DPS Meters even by the link you provided are not opinionated since they do nothing to force a certain reaction or outcome, they only do one thing, again that is visualize data.

 

 

 

[Makai.3429]

> @lmaogg.7325 said:

> welcome to the endgame of elitist. Good thing I am a wvw-er. Enjoy your toxicity pve-rs.

 

Funny how WvW is becoming more inclusive than PvE because of the raider/elitist crowd. I think I'll join you!

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

> > > >

> > > > and if you are 'really' interested : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/802050/what-is-opinionated-software

> > >

> > > Combat Meters pull unbiased raw data ie DPS, Heaing, Boon Upkeep, Skill use, Mechanics Succedes, Mechanics Failed, etc.

> > >

> > > Each player/class have roles, those roles have an acceptable range of performance that need to be achieved.

> > >

> > > Combat Meters display all information related to combat encounters in a easy to read UI. Again unbiased raw data.

> > >

> > > Using the easy to read UI to extrapolate if players/roles fall within the range of acceptable tolerances for that Players role in the group, be it DPS, Boons, Healing, or Mechanics.

> > >

> >

> > which has nothing to do with what i was talking about. Again, its about appropriate observation in a controlled environment, this is not what a meter in a mmorpg is.

> >

>

> All the Meters do is visualize raw data, nothing more nothing less, the link you posted doesn't help your argument at all since dps Meters don't guide or force players to do anything, or force players to do certain actions, all it does is display information, nothing more nothing less, the Meters don't force people to kick players they don't force them to keep players, again all it does is visualize data.

>

> Again DPS Meters even by the link you provided are not opinionated since they do nothing to force a certain reaction or outcome, they only do one thing, again that is visualize data.

>

>

>

 

Again thats got nothing to do with observation effects or bias. And AGAIN the tools is most certainly opinionated in design, can you configure it to evaluate altruistic behavior for example, can you define altruistic rulesets, can a dps meter even do such a thing for e.g?

[Azoqu.8917]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

 

Please cite the peer reviewed paper where said experiment was done.

[ShadowGryphon.6257]

This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.

If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.

It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > iv'e said why its bad, its pretty clear go read up on observational effects or confirmation bias (to name a few)

> > > > >

> > > > > and if you are 'really' interested : https://stackoverflow.com/questions/802050/what-is-opinionated-software

> > > >

> > > > Combat Meters pull unbiased raw data ie DPS, Heaing, Boon Upkeep, Skill use, Mechanics Succedes, Mechanics Failed, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Each player/class have roles, those roles have an acceptable range of performance that need to be achieved.

> > > >

> > > > Combat Meters display all information related to combat encounters in a easy to read UI. Again unbiased raw data.

> > > >

> > > > Using the easy to read UI to extrapolate if players/roles fall within the range of acceptable tolerances for that Players role in the group, be it DPS, Boons, Healing, or Mechanics.

> > > >

> > >

> > > which has nothing to do with what i was talking about. Again, its about appropriate observation in a controlled environment, this is not what a meter in a mmorpg is.

> > >

> >

> > All the Meters do is visualize raw data, nothing more nothing less, the link you posted doesn't help your argument at all since dps Meters don't guide or force players to do anything, or force players to do certain actions, all it does is display information, nothing more nothing less, the Meters don't force people to kick players they don't force them to keep players, again all it does is visualize data.

> >

> > Again DPS Meters even by the link you provided are not opinionated since they do nothing to force a certain reaction or outcome, they only do one thing, again that is visualize data.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Again thats got nothing to do with observation effects or bias. And AGAIN the tools is most certainly opinionated in design, can you configure it to evaluate altruistic behavior for example, can you define altruistic rulesets, can a dps meter even do such a thing for e.g?

 

Show me how a tool that's only purpose is showing X player did Y is biased or causes people to be biased, it shows unbiased, objective data in a visualized manner nothing more nothing less.

 

If X player didn't meet the needs of the group with value Y how is that biased? Again show where the Clmbat Meter is biased or opionated when all it shows is visualized combat data.

[Makai.3429]

> @ShadowGryphon.6257 said:

> This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.

> If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.

> It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

 

I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @ShadowGryphon.6257 said:

> This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.

> If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.

> It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

 

That's part of the point, though. *You* don't need to treat it like a job because you don't need to play with those people. Taking away their ability to use it will just force them to find another tool to use to support their behavior. The issue has *nothing* to do with the DPS meter itself.

 

There are countless examples that can be given from real life. I can use a hammer to help build something. Another person can use it to hurt someone. Should I not be allowed to use a hammer?

 

Personally, I use a DPS meter to measure my own DPS output. I use it as a tool to get better at playing the game.

 

Why are we blaming a tool with objective data output for the behavior of the person using it?

 

The combat log shows skill damage. Maybe without the DPS meter, some of those toxic players will request a screenshot every 10 minutes so each player can prove they are holding their own. If not, they'll kick you. Will we be back at the forum arguing that the combat log needs to be removed from the game?

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @Makai.3429 said:

> > @ShadowGryphon.6257 said:

> > This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.

> > If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.

> > It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

>

> I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

 

That statement would only be true if you weren't able to *make your own group*. It's not like elitist players have some magical control over who gets to raid and who doesn't.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Azoqu.8917 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

>

> Please cite the peer reviewed paper where said experiment was done.

 

do it yourself, its not my job to educate you. The papers go back to the 60's at least, this isn't new stuff that's being disputed, its well understood human behavior. You really need proof that these effects exist lol?

[Makai.3429]

> @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > @Makai.3429 said:

> > > @ShadowGryphon.6257 said:

> > > This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.

> > > If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.

> > > It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

> >

> > I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

>

> That statement would only be true if you weren't able to *make your own group*. It's not like elitist players have some magical control over who gets to raid and who doesn't.

 

Yeah, but that only goes so far: there's still a high chance of elitists joining your group and belittling you for making a mistake or two (since dodging 98 out of 100 attacks still equals death in this game), and there's nothing stopping them from using those tools and voting you out. This mentality has also poisoned T4 Fractals - any content beyond press 1 to win or dungeons, really.

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @lmaogg.7325 said:

> > @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > > @lmaogg.7325 said:

> > > welcome to the endgame of elitist. Good thing I am a wvw-er. Enjoy your toxicity pve-rs.

> >

> > Contributes nothing to the conversation., go back to WvW.

>

> Except I did.

> Keyword : elitist.

>

> Give them a mean to nitpick on other players/casul players. That's how you get this thread to begin with no?

> So my point? Remove the usage of dps meter. The game worked well for 5 years, no need for fanciful addons unless it's graphical.

 

This is wrong, though. There was toxicity during every part of the past 5 years. There will *always* be toxicity from some players. The idea that the DPS meter was the arrival of toxicity in the game is absolutely incorrect.

 

[MithranArkanere.8957]

This discussion will never end. There will be always people trying to make up excuses for their bad behaviors one way or another. Whether those bad behaviors is kicking out people without giving them an opportunity to prove themselves, or sneaking into parties to have them do all the work for them, there will always be people trying that kind of shenanigans and acting as if that was perfectly fine.

 

I'm actually not against DPS meters, but If only basic numbers can be counted, damage, healing, and that's it, I'd prefer it if there was an internal DPS meter, but that it was completely private, unless there was all sorts of additional statistics. Something one can use to improve, but that can't be used to impose anything on you.

 

If every game mechanic relevant for success could be properly counted, then I would not mind of party members can see your information, but it would be much more preferable to show it as a 'breakdown' at the end of the fight whenever the boss if defeated or a wipe occurs, instead as an "always on" feature on the screen during the fights.

[lmaogg.7325]

> @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > @lmaogg.7325 said:

> > > @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > > > @lmaogg.7325 said:

> > > > welcome to the endgame of elitist. Good thing I am a wvw-er. Enjoy your toxicity pve-rs.

> > >

> > > Contributes nothing to the conversation., go back to WvW.

> >

> > Except I did.

> > Keyword : elitist.

> >

> > Give them a mean to nitpick on other players/casul players. That's how you get this thread to begin with no?

> > So my point? Remove the usage of dps meter. The game worked well for 5 years, no need for fanciful addons unless it's graphical.

>

> This is wrong, though. There was toxicity during every part of the past 5 years. There will *always* be toxicity from some players. The idea that the DPS meter was the arrival of toxicity in the game is absolutely incorrect.

>

 

I never deny the existence of toxicity. Every game, even real life has it. But with the dps meter, it's only promoting it worst.

Isn't that why we have this thread right now? Saying the addon doesn't make it worst is just outright lies like how a certain president denies everything.

[CptAurellian.9537]

> @lmaogg.7325 said:

> I never deny the existence of toxicity. Every game, even real life has it. But with the dps meter, it's only promoting it worst.

> Isn't that why we have this thread right now? Saying the addon doesn't make it worst is just outright lies.

 

Yeah, without dps meters this thread would not exist. However, a stupid thread does not mean meters are bad.

[Scipion.7548]

I'm not totally against xxxMETER, however as long **GW2 is so poorly balanced**, as long **DPS is the only role for most classes** and Anet hasn't officially stated which roles each classes should be good at (like other mmorpgs), DPSmeter shouldn't be allowed. **I don't want to be at the top of the DPSmeter, I want to be at the top of the healing or supportmeter** with my guardian, my only character. You shouldn't be allowed to fire a warrior because he plays a tank and don't have a high DPS, or a guardian because he plays a support, or water ele because he plays a healer, **it is Anet fault if this is not optimized**, not the fault of this people who took logical decisions.

[Wolfheart.7483]

> @Makai.3429 said:

> > @Wolfheart.7483 said:

> > > @Makai.3429 said:

> > > > @ShadowGryphon.6257 said:

> > > > This is a game, this is supposed to be fun. There is a reason the "holy trinity" was done away with and that same reason applies to DPS meters.

> > > > If people are using these meters for such idiotic elitists reasons, they need to be disallowed.

> > > > It's not fun when you treat it like a job.

> > >

> > > I agree with you 100 percent, but the new majority dictates fun is only allowed when complete optimization is achieved. There is no room for error. Assimilate or be grandfathered out of high end PvE.

> >

> > That statement would only be true if you weren't able to *make your own group*. It's not like elitist players have some magical control over who gets to raid and who doesn't.

>

> Yeah, but that only goes so far: there's still a high chance of elitists joining your group and belittling you for making a mistake or two (since dodging 98 out of 100 attacks still equals death in this game), and there's nothing stopping them from using those tools and voting you out. This mentality has also poisoned T4 Fractals - any content beyond press 1 to win or dungeons, really.

 

The elitist joining your group and doing that is just as wrong as someone who doesn't want to play "meta" joining a "meta" group advertised as such.

 

As long as we are playing an MMO where thousands and thousands of other people play, there is *always* a chance you will run into kitteny behavior. That's the way life is. Sure you could get an elitist who wants to kick you based on DPS. Or maybe you'll get an elitist who doesn't like which utility skills you're using and votes to kick you for that. I have seen it happen. The point is you can't avoid kitteny people 100% of the time when you play an MMO.