WvW Changes

[cobbah.3102]

> @Vova.2640 said:

> >World vs. World

> >General

> >Proofs of Heroics and Testimonies of Heroics can now be used in the PvP lobby.

> >

> >Oil pot range is now 800.

> >

> >Eternal Battlegrounds

> >Ogrewatch Cut has had a large revision.

>

> Truly addresses everything WvW needed!

> Well done!

>

> That being said, cya all in 3 months (maybe).

 

I'm with you on that , time to take a break or find a new game, unless of course let scourge keep their crap reduce it to 600 and just maybe. you may be able to peer over the wall to see who is knocking and not die from the toxic wall paint. And just a thought get rid of perma stealth I mean what the kitten ,I know its a kids game but come on get real.

[SkyShroud.2865]

> @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower. While addressing this issue we ran into another issue of range for the oil pot and so we had to adjust the range.

>

> There was no reason why you couldn't use the Proof and Testimonies in the PvP lobby so we adjusted those items to no longer be restricted (this is kind of an on going thing where lots of items were flagged to not be allowed in the PvP lobby erroneously)

>

> Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

 

EBG was designed with some notable strategic.

 

For Green's and Blue's keeps. Their two back towers act as defensive towers towards their keeps while their keeps can provide limited protections vice versa. Red on the other hand is a unusual, instead of the two back towers, it is front and back tower covering the keep. Which in that case, I could classify them both as back tower in different facing direction. Now when you move OW off towards the ogre camp, red will only have one tower covering it and the amount of protection provided is not equivalent to that of Green's and Blue's

 

Then red layout is vastly different from the other two colors. Mendon and AP are way off in distance compare to Green's and Blue's keeps towards their outer towers.

 

Red's real advantage was the clustered Keep + OW + Veloka but you removed it.

[Narat.9258]

Alright, I have had a little time to think about Ogrewatch tower being moved and I’m gonna share my musings:

 

1. That tower served a strategic purpose in the old location no matter which server possesses it, the current location looks like it was put there on a whim.

2. Gliding is the Frankenstein of WvW, now that its here with clearly defined rules and boundaries, its just another way to get from A to B quickly, once given life you cannot kill the creature.

3. The new placement is game-changing for only 1 server at this moment, there are other towers on the Eternal Battlegrounds map that have their own unique tricks that have a bigger impact on the game than gliding in from the keep; furthermore its not exactly “sporting” to change a game in the middle of the match, unless the change affects all servers in the match equally; example move a tower in each the green and blue teams.

4. Now lets look at where it was moved: closer to the Ogre camp so now it can be stealth catapulted, closer to SMC where a well-placed trebuchet with a skilled shooter can keep the front gate destroyed all the live long day if need be – but no way of returning fire other than placing siege outside the tower where it will be exposed.

5. The open spot where that tower used to be now has an invisible wall that pretty much prevents siege weapons from being used in that general direction, all the way over to the Veloka entrance/exit to the Pangloss supply camp, if that area is intended to be open, let it be open, if the intent is to block the view of both entrances to said supply camp, put something there to block the view so no mistakes in placing siege weapons in the wrong spot do not occur.

6. To the right of the towers’ gate is a hill that pretty much rises up to the top of the wall, only someone that wants to waste siege would place something on the wall leading to the lords' room, any Elementalist can completely own that side with no effort.

7. There are other towers on that map that need tweaking more than that particular tower, there are other issues that needed more immediate attention than the surprise move of OW tower, it's of my lowly opinion that the move could have waited for reset night.

 

All in all, I come to WvW for the intense battles and competitive spirit, besides it's my only escape that I can afford every day, however, if some players or Anet personnel think that moving land around is going to keep my beloved Tarnished Coast down, you all had better guess again!

 

We will adapt, improvise and overcome! We are Toast!

 

Now go fix this mess please and thank you.

 

[ilmau.9781]

> @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower. While addressing this issue we ran into another issue of range for the oil pot and so we had to adjust the range.

>

> There was no reason why you couldn't use the Proof and Testimonies in the PvP lobby so we adjusted those items to no longer be restricted (this is kind of an on going thing where lots of items were flagged to not be allowed in the PvP lobby erroneously)

>

> Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

 

To sum up by my 5.000 hours of WvW experience

 

green side can defend all the 4 towers from the keep

blue side can defend 2 towers from the keep, other two are basically given for free to whoever get there and cap them

red NOW can defend just 1 (one, ONE) tower, three are given for free, plus you can hit red keep with trebs from Stonemist to keep virtually it always contested

 

So, speaking frankly, do you consider that BALANCED? beacouse i fail to see any logic in this change.

 

 

 

 

[Azel.4786]

> @ilmau.9781 said:

> To sum up by my 5.000 hours of WvW experience

>

> green side can defend all the 4 towers from the keep

> blue side can defend 2 towers from the keep, other two are basically given for free to whoever get there and cap them

> red NOW can defend just 1 (one, ONE) tower, three are given for free, plus you can hit red keep with trebs from Stonemist to keep virtually it always contested

>

> So, speaking frankly, do you consider that BALANCED? beacouse i fail to see any logic in this change.

 

The only logic I can phantom with this change is that ANET was playing one night on a server and was trying to cap OG but saw the red team players gliding down from Red Keep to fight them off and, thus, decided to change it. Too bad ANET was probably playing on a server that did not think about sending a single person to freaking tap the gate to stop that from happening or, you know, Treb from SMC if they held it.

 

Because this change is absurd from a Balance standpoint (as you and many others well pointed out) or even visual standpoint (the freaking wooden wall to stop you from coming from behind is the most "aw fuck it" thing I have ever seen in this game).

 

But then again, we are talking about ANET and most of the times the changes to WvW seem to be spur of the moment / dart board changes, if they ever come at all. [since PoF has been announced, launched and running for months, what has WvW gotten? Literally nothing - or rather, more of the cancerous condi burst meta because DoT should be Burst over Time by ANET's logic.]

 

We are at the situation that is "enjoy it and pray we do not alter it further" because there is 0 hope left that ANET will make an effort to improve WvW, be it from a balance, map or innovation perspective.

 

So yeah, don't waste your keyboard on this.

[Missy.7356]

> @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower. While addressing this issue we ran into another issue of range for the oil pot and so we had to adjust the range.

>

> There was no reason why you couldn't use the Proof and Testimonies in the PvP lobby so we adjusted those items to no longer be restricted (this is kind of an on going thing where lots of items were flagged to not be allowed in the PvP lobby erroneously)

>

> Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

 

I have just one question. Who tested the changes?

 

If you are worried about one side having a advantage, red has always had it worse, just a quick look at that screenshot someone took the time to do, you would see that red already has the most disadvantages.

 

Anyway, only logged in to see the change.....rolls eyes on way out.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower. While addressing this issue we ran into another issue of range for the oil pot and so we had to adjust the range.

>

> There was no reason why you couldn't use the Proof and Testimonies in the PvP lobby so we adjusted those items to no longer be restricted (this is kind of an on going thing where lots of items were flagged to not be allowed in the PvP lobby erroneously)

>

> Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

 

As others have mentioned and as shown with the map linked by Juno I would suggest it has gone on too long that the red keep can have it's walls taken down by trebuchet's inside Stonemist Castle. I find it's also a problem that red keep is the only keep where the enemy server can also attack from a superior position that does not require taking a tower to get that superior position, that is the hill between red keep and Anzalias. The height allows attackers to remove any defences that can hit them from the outer walls promptly while also being unable to be hit from many of the defences on the inner of the keep. Once more you can also hit the inner of the keep from that same hill which is a highly defensible location due to it's vision around the area and height.

 

TLDR: Red keep needs a redesign as does that hill between red keep and Anzalias.

[Kovu.7560]

To add to the above post, Anz could do to be more easily defensible for the red team. It's basically the EBG karma bicycle. As it stands that place is waaay too exposed on all sides to the point where nobody even bothers with defending it. Durios isn't all that much better.

Perhaps flip it (Anz) around and bake it into that cliff across the road in such a way that it can't be dropped into without gliding (or at all) -- not unlike Fire Keep. Negate the ability to scale to the top of that cliff to prevent easy sieging & desieging of Red Keep.

 

~ Kovu

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @Kovu.7560 said:

> To add to the above post, Anz could do to be more easily defensible for the red team. It's basically the EBG karma bicycle. As it stands that place is waaay too exposed on all sides to the point where nobody even bothers with defending it. Durios isn't all that much better.

> Perhaps flip it (Anz) around and bake it into that cliff across the road in such a way that it can't be dropped into without gliding (or at all) -- not unlike Fire Keep. Negate the ability to scale to the top of that cliff to prevent easy sieging & desieging of Red Keep.

>

> ~ Kovu

 

I think if they got rid of the Vista on that hill no one would have a reason to go up there anymore.?

[Kovu.7560]

Gotta do that EBG map completion and get that...

... whatever you get for EBG map completion.

 

~ Kovu

[Ubi.4136]

Thanks for fixing the invisible wall, but can you make it so the oil at OW can actually hit rams on the gate? Also, any time line on moving the outer walls back at red Keep so that it does not give red an "advantage"? No reason that red should be able to treb the castle directly from their keep when blue and green can not. Also, I look forward to hearing suggestions/fixes for the fact that OW can treb red keep inner (when no other outer tower can do that - not blue or green). Or, the vista above red keep that gives other servers an advantage when trebbing red keep since they can hit inner from there too.

 

Thanks in advance.

[XenesisII.1540]

Oh, huh, they actually fixed the invisible wall pretty fast.

Well here's another one, probably happened from the same earthquake that moved ogreswatch, the south canon in red keep is now floating in the air.

 


 

[tacharr.4597]

> @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower. While addressing this issue we ran into another issue of range for the oil pot and so we had to adjust the range.

>

> There was no reason why you couldn't use the Proof and Testimonies in the PvP lobby so we adjusted those items to no longer be restricted (this is kind of an on going thing where lots of items were flagged to not be allowed in the PvP lobby erroneously)

>

> Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

 

Some feedback: The chokepoint between the new Ogrewatch and the Ogre Camp is a bit ridiculous right now. Both sides have only one way through. Before you could at least drop off the cliff from the ogre camp.

[MidnightX.6294]

> @XenesisII.1540 said:

> Oh, huh, they actually fixed the invisible wall pretty fast.

> Well here's another one, probably happened from the same earthquake that moved ogreswatch, the south canon in red keep is now floating in the air.

>

> 

>

This was bugged long before this patch.

 

[Seffen.2875]

> @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower.

 

I can understand that.

But what i really do not understand at all are the flaws of design in the new Tower. When i first went there i saw several Things on barely the first eyesight which left me completely speechless.

 

Coming from Smc there is a hill up to almost half the height of the wall and leading almost to the door.

Going there you can:

 

-Look into the whole Tower super easily.

-Get rid of almost everything defending the gate!

-Bomb the Lordroom from the outside with skills needing less than 900 range. (There are other Towers where you can to that as well but they are a real lot higher and harder to reach)

Please remove this hill. This one is really unfair.

 

I like the new won space to fight. Please do not put any trees or whatever there.

 

Just to add: I do not think that beeing that Close to the ogres camp is unfair. You can be attacked from above which makes it quite hard to defend but other Towers have that Problem too. It just Looks really really weird.

 

It Would look better to actually make a wall up there and make us able to walk up. (the more i think about that the more i like it) This would give OW actually a significant buff and make it a lot easier to defend but also easier to attack since you can also enter it from up there. But this would also make up for the hill. And it would make this a real Ogre Watchtower

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @XenesisII.1540 said:

> > @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> > We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower.

> > Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

>

> I'm sorry but I don't see a problem in giving red an advantage for their own tower, especially given how spaced out mendons and anzalias pass is. Red is also the 3rd team which usually is the weakest team in the match.

>

> There's been dozens of desert borderland suggestions over the years, why it's badly designed compared to alpines which is more popular. Of course it had the most changes because it was the most broken wvw map released, even eotm was better designed. You guys still didn't even bother to address the ground clutter issue (it even came with pictures) I pointed out over a year ago.

>

> If you guys think desert is fine the way it is, so be it, a lot of players still won't bother to play it as is.

>

>i like the towers design on DBL, but keeps dispositon and size :X no...

> @Miyafuji.1340 said:

> > @"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

> > We were addressing map issues with Ogre Watch that arose with the addition of gliding. There was a big advantage red had in regard to the Ogre Watch tower. While addressing this issue we ran into another issue of range for the oil pot and so we had to adjust the range.

> >

> > There was no reason why you couldn't use the Proof and Testimonies in the PvP lobby so we adjusted those items to no longer be restricted (this is kind of an on going thing where lots of items were flagged to not be allowed in the PvP lobby erroneously)

> >

> > Desert Borderlands Map is one of the maps that has had the most adjustments made. If you have specific suggestions I'd love to hear them! Make a new Topic so the post doesn't get flagged.

>

> The desert map is still too big and too complicated to traverse. Like today for example, we got warning that enemy blob arrived at fire keep, they just arrived, aka it got reported as early as it could, yet, no matter how we tried, we did not manage to get there in time from spawn (ah home, we are red) to prevent them capping it. It just takes too long to get anywhere on that map.

 

That means they need to add tools to the team that belong the borderland not make a 10meter walk and ur inside another structure like the alpine, they need to add mechanics, the map is fine (maybe the keeps are a bit to big lol)

 

Making maps easy to get from structure to structure is what creates the Ktrain stuff... reason DBL is a good sized map but game is to blant, with lack of mechanics towards the gamemode, I have a feelign that ANet really wants ktrain since players didnt liked EOTM Anet had to wreck wvw to become eotm ktrains...

 

Make a permanent waypoint/ flag teleport call thing, whatever name, to the guild that owns the structure.

Emergency Waypoint could be for mass calls, and would work on who do no belongs to the structure "owners".