Halikus.1406 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Abelisk.4527 said: > Doesn't matter, Incensed Response is better. Power Revs hit harder, now. It's good that the skill cap is lower, since more players can be successful with it, now. > > Yes... Lowering the skill cap of every class surely is the answer. That's why we have PvP in this state, spam fest + low skill/high reward classes and more ppl every day losing interest in the game. Makes sense #sarcasm Edit: Like @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said it, revs already had easy might stack. So enlighten me, how is more and pointless might stack the answer? How is "fixing" the "identity crisis" giving it the same purpose as a weapon that already exists going to help the class? How is swapping more dmg to less self-sustain going to help a class that seems to have a counter in every corner? So no, Power rev doest not "hit harder" now. They just changed the way we do our dmg lowering the burst potential, which btw was the only thing that prevented the class from being completely helpless agaist some others. I wouldn't mind if they nerfed rev together with the other classes balancing things right, but that's obviously not the case. So if you think power rev got a "buff" you're deluding yourself. I sure want things to work in the game and obviously to my favorite class but what anet has been doing with their "balance patches" is bringing the opposite effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Halikus.1406 said: > > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > Doesn't matter, Incensed Response is better. Power Revs hit harder, now. It's good that the skill cap is lower, since more players can be successful with it, now. > > > > > > Yes... Lowering the skill cap of every class surely is the answer. That's why we have PvP in this state, spam fest + low skill/high reward classes and more ppl every day losing interest in the game. > Makes sense #sarcasm Revenant was already one of the most difficult specs to master. It makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > @Halikus.1406 said: > > > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > > Doesn't matter, Incensed Response is better. Power Revs hit harder, now. It's good that the skill cap is lower, since more players can be successful with it, now. > > > > > > > > > > Yes... Lowering the skill cap of every class surely is the answer. That's why we have PvP in this state, spam fest + low skill/high reward classes and more ppl every day losing interest in the game. > > Makes sense #sarcasm > > Revenant was already one of the most difficult specs to master. It makes sense. So instead of 20+ solo might stacks and a really good extra aoe burst that's instant we get.. 25 might stacks. What a deal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @witcher.3197 said: > > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > > @Halikus.1406 said: > > > > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > > > Doesn't matter, Incensed Response is better. Power Revs hit harder, now. It's good that the skill cap is lower, since more players can be successful with it, now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes... Lowering the skill cap of every class surely is the answer. That's why we have PvP in this state, spam fest + low skill/high reward classes and more ppl every day losing interest in the game. > > > Makes sense #sarcasm > > > > Revenant was already one of the most difficult specs to master. It makes sense. > > So instead of 20+ solo might stacks and a really good extra aoe burst that's instant we get.. 25 might stacks. What a deal! 25 Might stacks + a lot longer duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messiah.1908 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 ppl forget the invocation trait line is not connected to any legend. thus is suppose to act as a buff to any legend while anet take this further to nrg managing. thus this class seeing a more party sustain dmg over burst dmg (thief/mes role) equilibrium now gives aoe stability, resistance, regen, 2 might, protection which cost no nrg to use. i know dmg is more needed but is more a power build. as a stand alone trait change i can see it as a nerf. but imagine jalis and mallyx would get buff, the stability and resistance are very nice touch. i would have give this trait also a 1 sec kd aoe. also as ppl mention it is much easier and fast to reach 25 might stacks at the start of any fight. so over all with sword changes you have better dps. also invocation line become a must trait line which is a shame (looking like thief and water ele builds - boring) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > > > @Halikus.1406 said: > > > > > @Abelisk.4527 said: > > > > > Doesn't matter, Incensed Response is better. Power Revs hit harder, now. It's good that the skill cap is lower, since more players can be successful with it, now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes... Lowering the skill cap of every class surely is the answer. That's why we have PvP in this state, spam fest + low skill/high reward classes and more ppl every day losing interest in the game. > > > > Makes sense #sarcasm > > > > > > Revenant was already one of the most difficult specs to master. It makes sense. > > > > So instead of 20+ solo might stacks and a really good extra aoe burst that's instant we get.. 25 might stacks. What a deal! > > 25 Might stacks + a lot longer duration. Who cares? It's permanent upkeep even without the new buffs, except if it gets corrupted which happens a lot nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Abelisk.4527 said: > Twitch.tv/Bryvanent he plays Power Rev and he's really good at it. Very frequent 25 Might stacks. Incensed Response makes it so you have to be an idiot to not have 25 might. I don't get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @witcher.3197 said: > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. I know you know I have no idea what I'm talking about simply because I'm not 1950 rating and therefore my opinion is 100% invalid (although my money is just as green as anyone else's), but surely people can't be saying the 3k "burst" they had is what won fights...and is now the reason they're losing fights. I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. Furthermore, it especially does not explain why you cannot adapt to the change and find other ways to burst like people have...Bryvenant being one, who is very successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 I also want to point out that as this and similar conversations progress, the claimed damage Equilibrium provided has crept up in its theoretical damage output by its defenders from an initial 1k damage, to 3k damage, and now it's up to 4k damage. Will we see claims of 6k damage? 6k Equilibrium anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milan.9035 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 We could have both. I love the new sword. People asking for block back are crazy. Never used sword before this change. Axe and shield were better. Now yes i loved and used equilibrium all the time so having that plus sword would be awesome. But i think you just cant have it back. The burst would be insane. Sword 4 then swap then staff5 i dont think anything has the hp not to be dead from that. Rev is great now better than before. Problem is scourge and mesmers once they come down from god mode you will see rev explode on the scene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotASmurf.1725 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Milan.9035 said: > We could have both. I love the new sword. People asking for block back are crazy. Never used sword before this change. Axe and shield were better. Now yes i loved and used equilibrium all the time so having that plus sword would be awesome. > > But i think you just cant have it back. The burst would be insane. Sword 4 then swap then staff5 i dont think anything has the hp not to be dead from that. > > Rev is great now better than before. Problem is scourge and mesmers once they come down from god mode you will see rev explode on the scene Staff 5 hits like a wet noodle now, and sword 4 is 100% geting nerfed next patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > I also want to point out that as this and similar conversations progress, the claimed damage Equilibrium provided has crept up in its theoretical damage output by its defenders from an initial 1k damage, to 3k damage, and now it's up to 4k damage. Will we see claims of 6k damage? 6k Equilibrium anyone? 6k in WvW which is what I mostly care about. How else can you roam as power rev with all the shit in WvW? PvP Equilibrium was indeed meh, but because it was over nerfed. If they wanted to buff revenant damage they should've at least partially unnerfed Equilibrium in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said: > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > > > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. > > Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? > > Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. > > Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. If mug was removed it wouldn't break thieves burst. We can get sustainable 25 might without nefarious momentum now. No one wants to be locked into Shiro to do damage. It opens up more builds. That was part of the buff. Sword 4 is doing gobs of damage right now. Way more than any deficit that equilibrium being gone has afforded. To say overall burst got nerfed and pushed towards sustain type damage on Rev is simply not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said: > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > > > > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > > > > > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. > > > > Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? > > > > Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. > > > > Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. > > If mug was removed it wouldn't break thieves burst. > > We can get sustainable 25 might without nefarious momentum now. No one wants to be locked into Shiro to do damage. It opens up more builds. That was part of the buff. > > Sword 4 is doing gobs of damage right now. Way more than any deficit that equilibrium being gone has afforded. To say overall burst got nerfed and pushed towards sustain type damage on Rev is simply not true. You were never locked into Shiro, you get one less might from Nefarious Momentum if not using Shiro, which procs the Herald might trait for an extra might anyway (so it is actually 3 might not in Shiro vs 4 might in Shiro). You're more locked into Shiro from the fact that all the other legends aside from Glint are trash. Sword 4 is not reliable unless you're in silver or below. Would take axe 4 instead every time. Would take Equilibrium every time. Not to mention that sword 5 is a high risk, low reward, low range, slow skill that will almost never hit. If the goal of the patch was to open up more builds, it achieved that by making old invocation devastation revenant garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Set.7461 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 PvP it's a minor lost> @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said: > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > > > > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > > > > > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. > > > > Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? > > > > Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. > > > > Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. > > If mug was removed it wouldn't break thieves burst. > > We can get sustainable 25 might without nefarious momentum now. No one wants to be locked into Shiro to do damage. It opens up more builds. That was part of the buff. > > Sword 4 is doing gobs of damage right now. Way more than any deficit that equilibrium being gone has afforded. To say overall burst got nerfed and pushed towards sustain type damage on Rev is simply not true. He never said removing mug would break thieves. His point is, like Mug, Equilibrium is part of our burst regardless of the numbers. Having swd 4 helps offset equilibrium, sure I can agree to that. But then you're locked into a specific weaponset hitting in a cone whereas Equilibrium can be use with all powerbuild wielding any power weapon, in an AOE radius. The removal of hydromancy hurts power rev because it was used in conjunction with Equilibrium but this burst can still be seen in WvW. Like the combos @"BeepBoopBop.5403" pointed out, Mug is part of a thieve's burst chain e.g. BP>HS>Steal(mug)>PI proc> backstab. The removal of Hydromancy was a nerf to one link in our burst chain. The removal of Equilibrium is a nerf to another link while also pigeonholing revs to take Swd offhand to compensate. Will removing the damage from Mug break thieves? Probably not. Now remove PI or maybe the daze or another link until you have no burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 > @Set.7461 said: > PvP it's a minor lost> @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said: > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > > > > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > > > > > > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > > > > > > > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. > > > > > > Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? > > > > > > Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. > > > > > > Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. > > > > If mug was removed it wouldn't break thieves burst. > > > > We can get sustainable 25 might without nefarious momentum now. No one wants to be locked into Shiro to do damage. It opens up more builds. That was part of the buff. > > > > Sword 4 is doing gobs of damage right now. Way more than any deficit that equilibrium being gone has afforded. To say overall burst got nerfed and pushed towards sustain type damage on Rev is simply not true. > > He never said removing mug would break thieves. His point is, like Mug, Equilibrium is part of our burst regardless of the numbers. Having swd 4 helps offset equilibrium, sure I can agree to that. But then you're locked into a specific weaponset hitting in a cone whereas Equilibrium can be use with all powerbuild wielding any power weapon, in an AOE radius. The removal of hydromancy hurts power rev because it was used in conjunction with Equilibrium but this burst can still be seen in WvW. Like the combos @"BeepBoopBop.5403" pointed out, Mug is part of a thieve's burst chain e.g. BP>HS>Steal(mug)>PI proc> backstab. The removal of Hydromancy was a nerf to one link in our burst chain. The removal of Equilibrium is a nerf to another link while also pigeonholing revs to take Swd offhand to compensate. Will removing the damage from Mug break thieves? Probably not. Now remove PI or maybe the daze or another link until you have no burst. ...but they didn't remove any other links. On the contrary, they added more, just not in the form of damage on legend swap. If you want burst, use offhand sword. Like the patch notes said, it helped with identifying the tools of the class. It's only pigeonholing if you saw OH axe or shield as a burst spec requirement...which is not plausible as weapon sets should have their own unique roles. I'm seeing your complaint here as wanting to be efficient at burst with every weapon set regardless of the other tools and utilities they provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Set.7461 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > @Set.7461 said: > > PvP it's a minor lost> @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said: > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > > > > > > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > > > > > > > > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > > > > > > > > > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. > > > > > > > > Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? > > > > > > > > Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. > > > > > > > > Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. > > > > > > If mug was removed it wouldn't break thieves burst. > > > > > > We can get sustainable 25 might without nefarious momentum now. No one wants to be locked into Shiro to do damage. It opens up more builds. That was part of the buff. > > > > > > Sword 4 is doing gobs of damage right now. Way more than any deficit that equilibrium being gone has afforded. To say overall burst got nerfed and pushed towards sustain type damage on Rev is simply not true. > > > > He never said removing mug would break thieves. His point is, like Mug, Equilibrium is part of our burst regardless of the numbers. Having swd 4 helps offset equilibrium, sure I can agree to that. But then you're locked into a specific weaponset hitting in a cone whereas Equilibrium can be use with all powerbuild wielding any power weapon, in an AOE radius. The removal of hydromancy hurts power rev because it was used in conjunction with Equilibrium but this burst can still be seen in WvW. Like the combos @"BeepBoopBop.5403" pointed out, Mug is part of a thieve's burst chain e.g. BP>HS>Steal(mug)>PI proc> backstab. The removal of Hydromancy was a nerf to one link in our burst chain. The removal of Equilibrium is a nerf to another link while also pigeonholing revs to take Swd offhand to compensate. Will removing the damage from Mug break thieves? Probably not. Now remove PI or maybe the daze or another link until you have no burst. > > ...but they didn't remove any other links. On the contrary, they added more, just not in the form of damage on legend swap. > > If you want burst, use offhand sword. Like the patch notes said, it helped with identifying the tools of the class. It's only pigeonholing if you saw OH axe or shield as a burst spec requirement...which is not plausible as weapon sets should have their own unique roles. > > I'm seeing your complaint here as wanting to be efficient at burst with every weapon set regardless of the other tools and utilities they provide. Removing Equilibrium and pigeonholding revs to get that damage back with sword offhand is a nerf to our build diversity. Yes, Swd/Swd is stronger post patch. No one saw shield as a burst spec but Swd/axe and Swd/Shield is weaker precisely because now, they don't have access to Equilibrium. Pre-patch, you either ran axe offhand or shield offhand. Post patch, you just run sword offhand. You make one weaponset better while killing 2. How is that better than before? I feel like I'm repeating myself. While you focus on the new offhand sword damage, these numbers can change just like the nerfs to Precision Strikes and Staff 5. The removal of Equilibrium hurts power rev as a whole. Take staff 5 for example. Nerf it 15%. Then another 15%. Then a whooping 50%. Compartmentalizing damage is why staff 5 is in it's position now. Lets take a look at our shiny new sword offhand. Just like Staff 5, it's at the end of the link while Equilibrium is in the middle. Equilibrium is connected to more than just swd offhand. It's connected to the whole power rev playstyle. Want to make all power revs stronger? Buff Equilibrium, don't remove it. Want to buff sword offhand? Fine, then do that. Why remove an important trait that span the entire class because you re-designed a weapon no one was crying about? Seriously, I like the new sword but this forum was blindsided. We were looking forward to Kalla/shortbow changes. If you want to take about identity crisis, the devs should have looked at shortbow. ZERO access to defense. You can get away with it if only one set is pure damage and the other having defense. Since power revs have Staff, we can afford to go swd/swd. Condi revs needed Shortbow to have something.... an evade, block, whatever but it doesn't. Instead of giving shortbow a redesign(ahem sevenshot), they redesigned a weapon no one complained about, changed invocation to compensate, and changed some numbers on shortbow's torment. It's like the devs are disconnected with our feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 > @Set.7461 said: > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > @Set.7461 said: > > > PvP it's a minor lost> @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > @BeepBoopBop.5403 said: > > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > > > @witcher.3197 said: > > > > > > > > @"All Matters Fecal.9560" said: > > > > > > > > More might is not the answer, but 3k equilibrium damage on legend swap every 8 seconds was the answer? Please explain this paradox. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~20-25 might stacks were already possible. ~5-0 extra might stacks are not better than 3-4k instant aoe burst. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm having trouble categorizing 3k damage as burst. > > > > > > > > > > > I know you and Beep are going to read this as adversarial, but I'm just trying to have a discussion. I (and others) really just can't see it being the problem you're saying it is. You keep saying I just don't understand and never will, but that still doesn't explain why 3k every 8 seconds on legend swap made or broke a build. > > > > > > > > > > Why does any thief take Mug? 2k is weak right? > > > > > > > > > > Instant damage like Mug and Equilibrium is very easy to combo off of. Equilibrium is just part of the burst. I liked Precision Strike -> Equilibrium, and especially Surge -> Equilibrium, and of course the swagging Unrelenting Assault -> Equilibrium, and the basic auto attack -> Equilibrium.. > > > > > > > > > > Said it before: we have more might and possibly more overall damage but it is sustained damage that revenant often does not have the sustain to deliver. Considering we got our burst nerfed and turned to sustained damage while we also got no sustain buffs, losing Equilibrium for 25 might (THAT WE ALREADY HAD, NEFARIOUS MOMENTUM) is a nerf. > > > > > > > > If mug was removed it wouldn't break thieves burst. > > > > > > > > We can get sustainable 25 might without nefarious momentum now. No one wants to be locked into Shiro to do damage. It opens up more builds. That was part of the buff. > > > > > > > > Sword 4 is doing gobs of damage right now. Way more than any deficit that equilibrium being gone has afforded. To say overall burst got nerfed and pushed towards sustain type damage on Rev is simply not true. > > > > > > He never said removing mug would break thieves. His point is, like Mug, Equilibrium is part of our burst regardless of the numbers. Having swd 4 helps offset equilibrium, sure I can agree to that. But then you're locked into a specific weaponset hitting in a cone whereas Equilibrium can be use with all powerbuild wielding any power weapon, in an AOE radius. The removal of hydromancy hurts power rev because it was used in conjunction with Equilibrium but this burst can still be seen in WvW. Like the combos @"BeepBoopBop.5403" pointed out, Mug is part of a thieve's burst chain e.g. BP>HS>Steal(mug)>PI proc> backstab. The removal of Hydromancy was a nerf to one link in our burst chain. The removal of Equilibrium is a nerf to another link while also pigeonholing revs to take Swd offhand to compensate. Will removing the damage from Mug break thieves? Probably not. Now remove PI or maybe the daze or another link until you have no burst. > > > > ...but they didn't remove any other links. On the contrary, they added more, just not in the form of damage on legend swap. > > > > If you want burst, use offhand sword. Like the patch notes said, it helped with identifying the tools of the class. It's only pigeonholing if you saw OH axe or shield as a burst spec requirement...which is not plausible as weapon sets should have their own unique roles. > > > > I'm seeing your complaint here as wanting to be efficient at burst with every weapon set regardless of the other tools and utilities they provide. > > Removing Equilibrium and pigeonholding revs to get that damage back with sword offhand is a nerf to our build diversity. Yes, Swd/Swd is stronger post patch. No one saw shield as a burst spec but Swd/axe and Swd/Shield is weaker precisely because now, they don't have access to Equilibrium. Pre-patch, you either ran axe offhand or shield offhand. Post patch, you just run sword offhand. You make one weaponset better while killing 2. How is that better than before? I feel like I'm repeating myself. > > While you focus on the new offhand sword damage, these numbers can change just like the nerfs to Precision Strikes and Staff 5. The removal of Equilibrium hurts power rev as a whole. Take staff 5 for example. Nerf it 15%. Then another 15%. Then a whooping 50%. Compartmentalizing damage is why staff 5 is in it's position now. Lets take a look at our shiny new sword offhand. Just like Staff 5, it's at the end of the link while Equilibrium is in the middle. Equilibrium is connected to more than just swd offhand. It's connected to the whole power rev playstyle. Want to make all power revs stronger? Buff Equilibrium, don't remove it. Want to buff sword offhand? Fine, then do that. Why remove an important trait that span the entire class because you re-designed a weapon no one was crying about? Seriously, I like the new sword but this forum was blindsided. We were looking forward to Kalla/shortbow changes. > > If you want to take about identity crisis, the devs should have looked at shortbow. ZERO access to defense. You can get away with it if only one set is pure damage and the other having defense. Since power revs have Staff, we can afford to go swd/swd. Condi revs needed Shortbow to have something.... an evade, block, whatever but it doesn't. Instead of giving shortbow a redesign(ahem sevenshot), they redesigned a weapon no one complained about, changed invocation to compensate, and changed some numbers on shortbow's torment. It's like the devs are disconnected with our feedback. I agree with your thoughts on shortbow and devs being disconnected from feedback. They obviously have their own path for Rev that doesn't align with the community's. I'm not here to defend devs, I'm here to get a clear perspective on what people perceive as power Rev being gutted because equilibrium was changed especially when an option for power Rev is clear and concise. I see references to burst power Rev being pigeon holed, but I don't see people making the same claims for condi Rev needing their mace/axe weapon set...which is just as "pigeonholed." You use the right tools for the job. That's not pigeonholing. Unrelenting assault is definitely a long defense skill with the added bonus of damage and can be used both offensively and defensively. Shiro evade is a defense skill with stun break and almost no cool down. Staff has an interrupt, a knock back/evade and a blind/block...how much defense do you really need while still having access to as much damage as Rev has? Saying ZERO access to defense is quite a misnomer, isn't it? You can't expect devs to take that kind of feedback seriously. Of course, all of this is torpedoed by the current condi meta and Revs poor cleanses, but that's a different discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Set.7461 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Your whole post in response is a misinterpretation. I don't mean "rev has zero defense". > the devs should have looked at shortbow. ZERO access to defense I mean condi rev as in "shortbow has no defense". Being the complimentary ranged alternative to Mace/Axe, it(shortbow) needed defense which it doesn't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Matters Fecal.9560 Posted November 15, 2017 Share Posted November 15, 2017 > @Set.7461 said: > Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Your whole post in response is a misinterpretation. I don't mean "rev has zero defense". > > > the devs should have looked at shortbow. ZERO access to defense > > I mean condi rev as in "shortbow has no defense". Being the complimentary ranged alternative to Mace/Axe, it(shortbow) needed defense which it doesn't have. Oops, my bad. Thought you were still talking about Rev as a whole when I glanced back up to write my reply. Shortbow is a mess for PvP, and apparently only decent in PvE. I'm extremely bummed that it was designed with no PvP application considered. Not even equilibrium coming back could save shortbow in its current state, hah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Bring back Equilibrium, thnx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakubeC.3026 Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 Nah. Good changes. New traits are very alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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