apharma.3741 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Turk.5460 said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > @Leolas.6273 said: > > > @Sasajoe.1509 > > > yeah and for sure u can pick all those restore ini skills eh? Man you are complaining about something u have no clue about it. Play thief and see how it is. > > > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > Thief has the advantage of either gank or run away, that's about it. The longer the fights last the more up hill it is for the thief. What do you define reset? Going out combat or constantly stealthing? Thievs are the 1s that kite simply because they HAVE too, they can't face tank a chicken nor do they have any sustain, well if you class their "perma evading"then sure but we don't have invuls/protection/stability or any good passives, the only dmg midigation we have are from shadow arts or the -10 reduction from dash which is now nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > No you don't, or can't teach me anything. None of what I said means I have a problem with said classes, I just said what in most situations are if the zerglings are not complete potatoes and know how thief works. Btw I play core s/d thief. > > > > > > > > you are badly mistaken, the longer the fight goes the more advantage the thief has BECAUSE all other classes have cooldowns on their weapon skills while thieves DON't have cooldowns. > > > > > > > > Since it seems so difficult for you to grasp the difference between kiting & resetting (by which I think you know it but try to play stupid) > > > > > > > > Kiting means not going out of combat but staying at range / out of line of sight while resetting means getting out of combat, either of which involves the thief waiting out on the other player to waste his cds. > > > > > > You have no idea what you are talking about. It's almost like you lose to every Thief you encounter, then don't bother to learn how they work, then complain about what you incorrectly speculate to to be why you lost. I thought we saw the last of the pathetic "resetting" argument a year ago. This L2P argument is flawed for a multiple of reasons. Thieves generally cannot use shortbow alone to exit combat if someone is chasing them. At least not without wasting all of their initiative, all the while still being within 1200 units of their pursuer for a *long* stretch of time. A quick reset requires the use of a 50s cooldown, which also happens to be *most* Thieves *only* stunbreaker, and one of two condi clears. They also can't reset while conditions are on them, so theres another 30s cooldown if they are using SoA. On top of that, you can really easily walk in the opposite direction and be reset yourself. Resetting is not a tool that wins fights against opponents with half a brain. Are all of your cooldowns longer than 50 seconds? There, now don't you feel silly? > > > > > > Also guess what? The Thieves that you don't understand how to beat aren't going to be affected by this change, and if so, so little that you won't even notice! The ones who *will* be affected are ones using Acrobatics, something that barely anyone complains about. > > > > Well resetting is very real no matter how much try to deny it .. it is as if you never played wvw & only a half brain person can claim that thief doesn' have advantage the more the fight carries on, when he obviously has a much better/forgiving cooldown mechanic. > > > > Not only this nerf was justified but more changes are required to bring that class to balance. > > Hello! Please only quote my text if you have an actual response to my argument. You seem to have accidentally copied portions of my post instead of formulating your own response. > > I am curious as to what changes you thing Thief needs. Please visit the Thief forums and post your opinion there with what you think needs to be improved. Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZhouX.8742 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > @Leolas.6273 said: > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 > > > > yeah and for sure u can pick all those restore ini skills eh? Man you are complaining about something u have no clue about it. Play thief and see how it is. > > > > > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > Thief has the advantage of either gank or run away, that's about it. The longer the fights last the more up hill it is for the thief. What do you define reset? Going out combat or constantly stealthing? Thievs are the 1s that kite simply because they HAVE too, they can't face tank a chicken nor do they have any sustain, well if you class their "perma evading"then sure but we don't have invuls/protection/stability or any good passives, the only dmg midigation we have are from shadow arts or the -10 reduction from dash which is now nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > No you don't, or can't teach me anything. None of what I said means I have a problem with said classes, I just said what in most situations are if the zerglings are not complete potatoes and know how thief works. Btw I play core s/d thief. > > > > > > > > > > you are badly mistaken, the longer the fight goes the more advantage the thief has BECAUSE all other classes have cooldowns on their weapon skills while thieves DON't have cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > > Since it seems so difficult for you to grasp the difference between kiting & resetting (by which I think you know it but try to play stupid) > > > > > > > > > > Kiting means not going out of combat but staying at range / out of line of sight while resetting means getting out of combat, either of which involves the thief waiting out on the other player to waste his cds. > > > > > > > > You have no idea what you are talking about. It's almost like you lose to every Thief you encounter, then don't bother to learn how they work, then complain about what you incorrectly speculate to to be why you lost. I thought we saw the last of the pathetic "resetting" argument a year ago. This L2P argument is flawed for a multiple of reasons. Thieves generally cannot use shortbow alone to exit combat if someone is chasing them. At least not without wasting all of their initiative, all the while still being within 1200 units of their pursuer for a *long* stretch of time. A quick reset requires the use of a 50s cooldown, which also happens to be *most* Thieves *only* stunbreaker, and one of two condi clears. They also can't reset while conditions are on them, so theres another 30s cooldown if they are using SoA. On top of that, you can really easily walk in the opposite direction and be reset yourself. Resetting is not a tool that wins fights against opponents with half a brain. Are all of your cooldowns longer than 50 seconds? There, now don't you feel silly? > > > > > > > > Also guess what? The Thieves that you don't understand how to beat aren't going to be affected by this change, and if so, so little that you won't even notice! The ones who *will* be affected are ones using Acrobatics, something that barely anyone complains about. > > > > > > Well resetting is very real no matter how much try to deny it .. it is as if you never played wvw & only a half brain person can claim that thief doesn' have advantage the more the fight carries on, when he obviously has a much better/forgiving cooldown mechanic. > > > > > > Not only this nerf was justified but more changes are required to bring that class to balance. > > > > Hello! Please only quote my text if you have an actual response to my argument. You seem to have accidentally copied portions of my post instead of formulating your own response. > > > > I am curious as to what changes you thing Thief needs. Please visit the Thief forums and post your opinion there with what you think needs to be improved. > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. We've already discussed resetting, and that user didn't have a response to my argument. They then reveal they want more changes to Thief, and I asked what that would be. However, regardless if we are currently in a WvW forum, this topic is regarding one aspect and titled as such. It's focus is solely around Thief - so yes, this thread would be better off in the Thief forum, as would any new topics the user would want to bring up regarding what he thinks needs changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > @Leolas.6273 said: > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 > > > > yeah and for sure u can pick all those restore ini skills eh? Man you are complaining about something u have no clue about it. Play thief and see how it is. > > > > > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > Thief has the advantage of either gank or run away, that's about it. The longer the fights last the more up hill it is for the thief. What do you define reset? Going out combat or constantly stealthing? Thievs are the 1s that kite simply because they HAVE too, they can't face tank a chicken nor do they have any sustain, well if you class their "perma evading"then sure but we don't have invuls/protection/stability or any good passives, the only dmg midigation we have are from shadow arts or the -10 reduction from dash which is now nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > No you don't, or can't teach me anything. None of what I said means I have a problem with said classes, I just said what in most situations are if the zerglings are not complete potatoes and know how thief works. Btw I play core s/d thief. > > > > > > > > > > you are badly mistaken, the longer the fight goes the more advantage the thief has BECAUSE all other classes have cooldowns on their weapon skills while thieves DON't have cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > > Since it seems so difficult for you to grasp the difference between kiting & resetting (by which I think you know it but try to play stupid) > > > > > > > > > > Kiting means not going out of combat but staying at range / out of line of sight while resetting means getting out of combat, either of which involves the thief waiting out on the other player to waste his cds. > > > > > > > > You have no idea what you are talking about. It's almost like you lose to every Thief you encounter, then don't bother to learn how they work, then complain about what you incorrectly speculate to to be why you lost. I thought we saw the last of the pathetic "resetting" argument a year ago. This L2P argument is flawed for a multiple of reasons. Thieves generally cannot use shortbow alone to exit combat if someone is chasing them. At least not without wasting all of their initiative, all the while still being within 1200 units of their pursuer for a *long* stretch of time. A quick reset requires the use of a 50s cooldown, which also happens to be *most* Thieves *only* stunbreaker, and one of two condi clears. They also can't reset while conditions are on them, so theres another 30s cooldown if they are using SoA. On top of that, you can really easily walk in the opposite direction and be reset yourself. Resetting is not a tool that wins fights against opponents with half a brain. Are all of your cooldowns longer than 50 seconds? There, now don't you feel silly? > > > > > > > > Also guess what? The Thieves that you don't understand how to beat aren't going to be affected by this change, and if so, so little that you won't even notice! The ones who *will* be affected are ones using Acrobatics, something that barely anyone complains about. > > > > > > Well resetting is very real no matter how much try to deny it .. it is as if you never played wvw & only a half brain person can claim that thief doesn' have advantage the more the fight carries on, when he obviously has a much better/forgiving cooldown mechanic. > > > > > > Not only this nerf was justified but more changes are required to bring that class to balance. > > > > Hello! Please only quote my text if you have an actual response to my argument. You seem to have accidentally copied portions of my post instead of formulating your own response. > > > > I am curious as to what changes you thing Thief needs. Please visit the Thief forums and post your opinion there with what you think needs to be improved. > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @ZhouX.8742 said: > After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it. It hasn't shifted the playstyle of the meta d/p build that is wideley used, no. But it absolutely changed the way we Acro users have to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 DDs were basically immune to soft cc, now they have a little drawback, but as usual they blow things out of proportion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Turk.5460 said: > > @ZhouX.8742 said: > > After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it. > > It hasn't shifted the playstyle of the meta d/p build that is wideley used, no. But it absolutely changed the way we Acro users have to play. You mean with the combination of both acro and daredevil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @MUDse.7623 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > > @Leolas.6273 said: > > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 > > > > > yeah and for sure u can pick all those restore ini skills eh? Man you are complaining about something u have no clue about it. Play thief and see how it is. > > > > > > > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > > > > Thief has the advantage of either gank or run away, that's about it. The longer the fights last the more up hill it is for the thief. What do you define reset? Going out combat or constantly stealthing? Thievs are the 1s that kite simply because they HAVE too, they can't face tank a chicken nor do they have any sustain, well if you class their "perma evading"then sure but we don't have invuls/protection/stability or any good passives, the only dmg midigation we have are from shadow arts or the -10 reduction from dash which is now nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No you don't, or can't teach me anything. None of what I said means I have a problem with said classes, I just said what in most situations are if the zerglings are not complete potatoes and know how thief works. Btw I play core s/d thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > you are badly mistaken, the longer the fight goes the more advantage the thief has BECAUSE all other classes have cooldowns on their weapon skills while thieves DON't have cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since it seems so difficult for you to grasp the difference between kiting & resetting (by which I think you know it but try to play stupid) > > > > > > > > > > > > Kiting means not going out of combat but staying at range / out of line of sight while resetting means getting out of combat, either of which involves the thief waiting out on the other player to waste his cds. > > > > > > > > > > You have no idea what you are talking about. It's almost like you lose to every Thief you encounter, then don't bother to learn how they work, then complain about what you incorrectly speculate to to be why you lost. I thought we saw the last of the pathetic "resetting" argument a year ago. This L2P argument is flawed for a multiple of reasons. Thieves generally cannot use shortbow alone to exit combat if someone is chasing them. At least not without wasting all of their initiative, all the while still being within 1200 units of their pursuer for a *long* stretch of time. A quick reset requires the use of a 50s cooldown, which also happens to be *most* Thieves *only* stunbreaker, and one of two condi clears. They also can't reset while conditions are on them, so theres another 30s cooldown if they are using SoA. On top of that, you can really easily walk in the opposite direction and be reset yourself. Resetting is not a tool that wins fights against opponents with half a brain. Are all of your cooldowns longer than 50 seconds? There, now don't you feel silly? > > > > > > > > > > Also guess what? The Thieves that you don't understand how to beat aren't going to be affected by this change, and if so, so little that you won't even notice! The ones who *will* be affected are ones using Acrobatics, something that barely anyone complains about. > > > > > > > > Well resetting is very real no matter how much try to deny it .. it is as if you never played wvw & only a half brain person can claim that thief doesn' have advantage the more the fight carries on, when he obviously has a much better/forgiving cooldown mechanic. > > > > > > > > Not only this nerf was justified but more changes are required to bring that class to balance. > > > > > > Hello! Please only quote my text if you have an actual response to my argument. You seem to have accidentally copied portions of my post instead of formulating your own response. > > > > > > I am curious as to what changes you thing Thief needs. Please visit the Thief forums and post your opinion there with what you think needs to be improved. > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 To be honest stealth ruins the fun in every game they try to introduce it, if they removed it completely it would be a nice change. Assassins in gw1 had no stealth & they were pretty strong even considered op at some point (there were no dodges also) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > To be honest stealth ruins the fun in every game they try to introduce it, if they removed it completely it would be a nice change. > > Assassins in gw1 had no stealth & they were pretty strong even considered op at some point (there were no dodges also) Assassins had things like aura of displacement or shadow prison or critical defence though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > To be honest stealth ruins the fun in every game they try to introduce it, if they removed it completely it would be a nice change. > > > > Assassins in gw1 had no stealth & they were pretty strong even considered op at some point (there were no dodges also) > > Assassins had things like aura of displacement or shadow prison or critical defence though. yep that would be much better than the stealth (also assassins had cooldowns back then) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @MUDse.7623 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, maybe we should discuss that in an other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > @ZhouX.8742 said: > > > After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it. > > > > It hasn't shifted the playstyle of the meta d/p build that is wideley used, no. But it absolutely changed the way we Acro users have to play. > > You mean with the combination of both acro and daredevil? What is the title of this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @MUDse.7623 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. > > so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. > > edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, maybe we should discuss that in an other thread. Well then it would be like any normal class wouldn't it? Why should only thief be special by being able to kite 5 ppl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @MUDse.7623 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. > > so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. > > edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, **maybe we should discuss that in an other thread.** Was thinking that myself. Can’t seem to see what you would change about UC only that you thought the change was bad or do you think UC was fine as is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddie.5861 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > Spamming evades doesn't equal skill, this change should have been made loooong time ago (as more are needed to bring this class in line) > Can't have everything: HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to **_reset_** combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns & is left just standing in the open (which let's be honest isn't making the game particularly fun). > > Also nobody forces thieves to play full zerker gear - you can always use some toughness/vitality combo like most other classes in wvw do. u wanna hit like a wet noodle and get wrecked within seconds play thief with vit/toughness.. i mean just taking warrior as example they can go deffensive while still wacking people so they wont regen so much health. thief cant go deffensive and keep bashing on people.. stealth isnt deffensive cus u stand theredoing nothing so is he. the block is deffensive but it wont save ur ass.. basically deffensive for thief is what people call lame to reset fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Turk.5460 said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > @ZhouX.8742 said: > > > > After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it. > > > > > > It hasn't shifted the playstyle of the meta d/p build that is wideley used, no. But it absolutely changed the way we Acro users have to play. > > > > You mean with the combination of both acro and daredevil? > > What is the title of this thread? Then don't bring acro into this then lol, it has nothing to do with UC but you say "us acro users will have to play different" not sure why people even run acro with daredevil, let alone with dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > > > > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > > > > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. > > > > so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. > > > > edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, maybe we should discuss that in an other thread. > > Well then it would be like any normal class wouldn't it? Why should only thief be special by being able to kite 5 ppl? i didnt say only thief should be able to. i said only thief is able to and it is good that there is an option to do that. i didnt say other classes if build accordingly shouldnt be able to but that would require alot of rework to most classes. i personally dont see fun in solo roaming if it would consist of 80% running away , 19% ganking poor zerglings with build suited for group fights or newbies and 1% against other solo roamers. if more classes and builds can easly escape ganksquads, then i do think there would be more solo roamers again so more spontanious 1 on 1s. but guess i am bit delusional here as its so much easier and 'fun' to outnumber your opponent. > @apharma.3741 said: > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > > > > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > > > > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. > > > > so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. > > > > edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, **maybe we should discuss that in an other thread.** > > Was thinking that myself. > > Can’t seem to see what you would change about UC only that you thought the change was bad or do you think UC was fine as is? i already didnt play with UC cause i prefered bound but now i would prefer to use no grandmaster trait in DD to UC as well. as i dont play it i didnt propose a change but some more mild nerfes have been proposed on thieves froum so i reffered to look there like: - only cleanse one soft cc [with immob priority ofc] - with dont stop you would still remove all 3 then. - have ICD on soft cc remove - drain extra endurance depending on wich soft cc was removed instead of that debuff(tho the numbers mentioned by that person over on thieves forum are too high) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @MUDse.7623 said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > > > > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > > > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > > > > > > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. > > > > > > so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. > > > > > > edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, maybe we should discuss that in an other thread. > > > > Well then it would be like any normal class wouldn't it? Why should only thief be special by being able to kite 5 ppl? > > i didnt say only thief should be able to. i said only thief is able to and it is good that there is an option to do that. i didnt say other classes if build accordingly shouldnt be able to but that would require alot of rework to most classes. i personally dont see fun in solo roaming if it would consist of 80% running away , 19% ganking poor zerglings with build suited for group fights or newbies and 1% against other solo roamers. > if more classes and builds can easly escape ganksquads, then i do think there would be more solo roamers again so more spontanious 1 on 1s. but guess i am bit delusional here as its so much easier and 'fun' to outnumber your opponent. I agree, but instead of reworking all other classes they should just rework thief, or as it is now happening they are slowly nerfing it into balance ... which takes forever unfortunately, one swift rework would be much less painful for everyone. 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Gahzirra.8639 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Jinks.2057 said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > Mesmers are pretty easy to outrun actually unlike thieves. > > > > Whether a warrior could catch up to you depends on his build (there are not that many nike warriors nowadays) while thief be it power or condi can & will catch up to you if he decides to. > > What class are you playing that you are having trouble vs thieves? > > No one should be getting rekt by thieves at this stage in the game ??? I guess that's why there are so many roaming thieves, they love playing the underpowered class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Gahzirra.8639 said: > > @Jinks.2057 said: > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > Mesmers are pretty easy to outrun actually unlike thieves. > > > > > > Whether a warrior could catch up to you depends on his build (there are not that many nike warriors nowadays) while thief be it power or condi can & will catch up to you if he decides to. > > > > What class are you playing that you are having trouble vs thieves? > > > > No one should be getting rekt by thieves at this stage in the game > > ??? I guess that's why there are so many roaming thieves, they love playing the underpowered class... Haha yeah precisely on point, people must love playing underpowered classes xDDD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said: > > > > > > > > > @apharma.3741 said: > > > > > > > > > Considering this is the WvW subforum and the aspect of resetting is much more relevant to WvW I think this is as good a place to discuss everything he is discussing. In fact most of this thread is about thief and UC in regard to WvW. If you honestly think that this discussion would be better in the forum of salt and wine then report the topic to be moved where no person will ever see or comment on it that hasn’t been invited to the cult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I too wonder what he thinks needs changing, personally I think stealth needs changes but that isn’t thief specific only that thief will need a lot of work to accommodate changes. Stealth camping whether it be from thief, mesmer, engineer and ranger should not exist while stealth is in its current form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i do think more classes / builds should be able do disengange properly if one wants to encourage solo roaming, if you want to encourage small gank squads(cause its more fun when 5 thieves jump you instead of one - right?..was fun for me against you and your mates but only cause i was thief. ) and zerging while killing soloroaming then ofc tone stealth down so that one alone can not stealth enough to get away. same for high mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be fine if stealth didn’t also benefit those small gank squads but it definitely does and I’ve seen many instances where 5 people stealth up to obliterate 3 others. I won’t pretend I have never done that but I think it’s poor form and generally might only do it once every few months for a laugh and given you ran stealth camper DE last I saw you I’m sure you’ve done it too on occasion but also know it’s cheesy and bad for the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solo roaming is always going to have issues when you find a group of gankers, short durations of stealth upto 5s in my opinion are fine but over that is in my opinion too much. 5s should be enough for most solo roamers to put distance between them and gankers/zergs if used properly and they should generally be about the same speed barring thief and the abomination of what mirage has allowed. > > > > > > > > > > > > how are you going to nerf stealth for solo but also for ganksquads? or do you want to disable all kinds of sharing stealth with mates, wich is an important mechanic in samll group fight for rezzing to avoid stomps as some are not interruptable like mistform, elixir s. > > > > > > as of now ganksquads can permastealth and some solo builds also. nerfing stealth will most probably shift the balance further towards ganksquads favor as you know anet wont balance it the way you might propose ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone suggested a while back that stealth shouldn’t stack and there be a forced reveal for a second or two afterwards which could work, im not saying it’s the answer to everything just a suggestion that seemed ok. As I say durations upto 5s are generally alright whether it’s solo or small group, you can get stealth stomps off or stealth rez and solo roamers shouldn’t have too much trouble ditching people chasing if you use stealth at a fork. I know I haven’t needed to use more than the base duration of mass invis or decoy on mesmer to ditch people chasing and that’s without the ludicrous mirage thrust that makes mirage as bad as DD to catch. Was also roaming on FA ele last night and could get away pretty confidently without any stealth, mostly because of FGS and how it gives 30s of really good mobility combined with superspeed on air attunement. > > > > > > > > > > I also don’t have too much of an issue with people popping in and out of stealth every so often so long as there is a window of time where they won’t be in stealth. This allows for people with skills that require targets to actually have an opportunity to fight rather than prolonged periods where a lot of their skills essentially do not work. Again this is regardless of class but thief would need a considerable update to many traits and skills and stealth gyro might need altering slightly. > > > > > > > > so you suggest to get away with mobility..that works as long as noone with similar mobility decides to chase you. i know you can get away from groups with just decoy and MI or fgs but its not nearly as reliable as the stealth a thief has. and i dont think you can fight groups of 5+ noobs if you can only stealth for max 5s but maybe it was never intended and we should run from 3+ enemies - i dont like to spent 80% my time running away so that would make me quit solo roaming for sure. > > > > > > > > edit: i feel like this is a bit off topic, maybe we should discuss that in an other thread. > > > > > > Well then it would be like any normal class wouldn't it? Why should only thief be special by being able to kite 5 ppl? > > > > i didnt say only thief should be able to. i said only thief is able to and it is good that there is an option to do that. i didnt say other classes if build accordingly shouldnt be able to but that would require alot of rework to most classes. i personally dont see fun in solo roaming if it would consist of 80% running away , 19% ganking poor zerglings with build suited for group fights or newbies and 1% against other solo roamers. > > if more classes and builds can easly escape ganksquads, then i do think there would be more solo roamers again so more spontanious 1 on 1s. but guess i am bit delusional here as its so much easier and 'fun' to outnumber your opponent. > I agree, but instead of reworking all other classes they should just rework thief, or as it is now happening they are slowly nerfing it into balance ... which takes forever unfortunately, one swift rework would be much less painful for everyone. my personal problem with that is, i wont be solo roaming after that cause running away is not really what i like - i would play a racing game if i'd like that. you will still have gank squads that would ruin my experience when roaming on other classes. you said these 'groups' form cause of thieves but i doubt they will disapear if you nerfs thief escapabilites as they dont have to consist of thieves. RoF for instance is currently running with alot of mesmer gank squads .. they pretty much can instant kill most groups that are lower their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > > > @ZhouX.8742 said: > > > > > After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it. > > > > > > > > It hasn't shifted the playstyle of the meta d/p build that is wideley used, no. But it absolutely changed the way we Acro users have to play. > > > > > > You mean with the combination of both acro and daredevil? > > > > What is the title of this thread? > > Then don't bring acro into this then lol, it has nothing to do with UC but you say "us acro users will have to play different" not sure why people even run acro with daredevil, let alone with dash. I'm sorry that you are not experienced enough to see the value of alternative builds outside of metabattle.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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