Supz.9836 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Agree completely, I hate how other MMOs do this, I think its a pretty distasteful business model and its very sad to see Anet go down this scummy road. If I see loot boxes on other MMOs I typically uninstall straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor.4130 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 It is time we get some law regulation about these and start enforcing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Zaklex.6308 said: > By definition it is not a gamble: > "verb > 1. > play games of chance for money; bet. > "she was fond of gambling on cards and horses" > synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies > "he started to gamble more often" > 2. > take risky action in the hope of a desired result. > "the British could only gamble that something would turn up" > synonyms: take a chance, take a risk; More > noun > 1. > an act of gambling; an enterprise undertaken or attempted with a risk of loss and a chance of profit or success." > You are guaranteed an item, therefore it is not a chance, it's not risky, nor is there a chance of loss or profit(see item guarantee). According to your posted definitions it is gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @CharterforGw.3149 said: > technically not gambling though Only because the laws and regulatory bodies are slow to catch up with online things. While it technically (and legally) isn't gambling... we all know that it friggin' is gambling in every sense of the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashagar.8349 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > > Either make sure that your underage kids are playing and spending money in online games in a responsible fashion or dont let them play online at all. > > > > > > > > And most importantly, be a role model to your kids in those regards as well and dont make cosmetic shinies in a video game such a big deal of your life. > > > > > > It's not about what the children are or are not doing, it's about what the children are *learning.* Whether a parent *allows* them to gamble in the game or not, if the kid is playing, and sees all these cool skins, and knows that the only way to get them is to gamble for them, then they learn that gambling is good, whether they're allowed to actively participate in it or not. It's like taking your kid onto the casino floor and letting them watch you play blackjack. The only way to not expose them to that is to not let them play GW2 at all. > > > > > > > > > > But, you do have some amount of control over what lessons are being learned here. Like, you can just as easily make it a positive learning experience for them if you really want, I don't believe that you can honestly claim that it's an inherently negative one. > > How old are you? 20s? 30s? 40s? You were not programmed to be exploited this way in your childhood years. You have self control. Currently the industry is teaching kids to enjoy gambling. To profit on it in the future. That's a statement that is neither here nor there. A lot of free to play games have shady practices of exploitation but this is not one of those instances. And I think it's disingenuous to equate the two, which your above statement seems to be attempting to do. As an adult, you have some control over the frame of reference you enter into a situation with. As a parent, assuming you know what your child is doing online and you're actively taking interest in their activities, you also have that same control over the frame of reference that they have available for a particular scenario. And the lessons they learn from the outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Wanze.8410 said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > Either make sure that your underage kids are playing and spending money in online games in a responsible fashion or dont let them play online at all. > > > > > > And most importantly, be a role model to your kids in those regards as well and dont make cosmetic shinies in a video game such a big deal of your life. > > > > It's not about what the children are or are not doing, it's about what the children are *learning.* Whether a parent *allows* them to gamble in the game or not, if the kid is playing, and sees all these cool skins, and knows that the only way to get them is to gamble for them, then they learn that gambling is good, whether they're allowed to actively participate in it or not. It's like taking your kid onto the casino floor and letting them watch you play blackjack. **The only way to not expose them to that is to not let them play GW2 at all.** > > > > > Exactly, thats what I mean. If the parents feel like GW2 is teaching their kid wrong values, dont let them play it. Its the parents' responsibility to make that choice. Sure, but given that GW2 has so many positive elements to offer kids, it would be a shame if parents felt it necessary to make that choice. Ideally ANet would not force them to do so. > @Rashagar.8349 said: > But, you do have some amount of control over what lessons are being learned here. Like, you can just as easily make it a positive learning experience for them if you really want, I don't believe that you can honestly claim that it's an inherently negative one. It's an inherently negative one. Honest. There are theoretically ways that you could arrange things that it would teach them a lesson about gambling, but it would be contrived and could easily backfire, like in those old Donald Duck cartoons where he thought the newphews were smoking so he forced them to smoke an entire carton until they got violently ill. It's too much of a double edged sword, and the lesson you end up teaching would very likely not be the one you intended to pass on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > > > Either make sure that your underage kids are playing and spending money in online games in a responsible fashion or dont let them play online at all. > > > > > > > > > > And most importantly, be a role model to your kids in those regards as well and dont make cosmetic shinies in a video game such a big deal of your life. > > > > > > > > It's not about what the children are or are not doing, it's about what the children are *learning.* Whether a parent *allows* them to gamble in the game or not, if the kid is playing, and sees all these cool skins, and knows that the only way to get them is to gamble for them, then they learn that gambling is good, whether they're allowed to actively participate in it or not. It's like taking your kid onto the casino floor and letting them watch you play blackjack. The only way to not expose them to that is to not let them play GW2 at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, you do have some amount of control over what lessons are being learned here. Like, you can just as easily make it a positive learning experience for them if you really want, I don't believe that you can honestly claim that it's an inherently negative one. > > > > How old are you? 20s? 30s? 40s? You were not programmed to be exploited this way in your childhood years. You have self control. Currently the industry is teaching kids to enjoy gambling. To profit on it in the future. > > That's a statement that is neither here nor there. > A lot of free to play games have shady practices of exploitation but this is not one of those instances. And I think it's disingenuous to equate the two, which your above statement seems to be attempting to do. > As an adult, you have some control over the frame of reference you enter into a situation with. As a parent, assuming you know what your child is doing online and you're actively taking interest in their activities, you also have that same control over the frame of reference that they have available for a particular scenario. And the lessons they learn from the outcomes. The difference is this is not F2P game but a B2P game. So such practices are neither justified nor welcome here. Anet was praised for a long time for having fair microtransactions model. We are currently in the middle of the process of testing and implementing more shady practices. It didn't start yesterday with mounts. It's happening for some time now. They started with some uninteresting, miniscule things in BLCs, then they put BLC weapon set to be account bound, then they put exclusive rng BLC weapon skins and outfits and now we have mounts. Look at the whole picture. They are actively teaching you it's okay when you pay and not get what you wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 I'd bet my left buttcheek on the fact that Shadow of War, the new CoD and other "triple a"-games, at 60-100 dollars each, are getting away with gambling via loot boxes emboldened Anet to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashagar.8349 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > > > > Either make sure that your underage kids are playing and spending money in online games in a responsible fashion or dont let them play online at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > And most importantly, be a role model to your kids in those regards as well and dont make cosmetic shinies in a video game such a big deal of your life. > > > > > > > > > > It's not about what the children are or are not doing, it's about what the children are *learning.* Whether a parent *allows* them to gamble in the game or not, if the kid is playing, and sees all these cool skins, and knows that the only way to get them is to gamble for them, then they learn that gambling is good, whether they're allowed to actively participate in it or not. It's like taking your kid onto the casino floor and letting them watch you play blackjack. The only way to not expose them to that is to not let them play GW2 at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, you do have some amount of control over what lessons are being learned here. Like, you can just as easily make it a positive learning experience for them if you really want, I don't believe that you can honestly claim that it's an inherently negative one. > > > > > > How old are you? 20s? 30s? 40s? You were not programmed to be exploited this way in your childhood years. You have self control. Currently the industry is teaching kids to enjoy gambling. To profit on it in the future. > > > > That's a statement that is neither here nor there. > > A lot of free to play games have shady practices of exploitation but this is not one of those instances. And I think it's disingenuous to equate the two, which your above statement seems to be attempting to do. > > As an adult, you have some control over the frame of reference you enter into a situation with. As a parent, assuming you know what your child is doing online and you're actively taking interest in their activities, you also have that same control over the frame of reference that they have available for a particular scenario. And the lessons they learn from the outcomes. > > The difference is this is not F2P game but a B2P game. So such practices are neither justified nor welcome here. Anet was praised for a long time for having fair microtransactions model. We are currently in the middle of the process of testing and implementing more shady practices. It didn't start yesterday with mounts. It's happening for some time now. They started with some uninteresting, miniscule things in BLCs, then they put BLC weapon set to be account bound, then they put exclusive rng BLC weapon skins and outfits and now we have mounts. Look at the whole picture. They are actively teaching you it's okay when you pay and not get what you wanted. No the difference is that they're entirely different practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerlen.5326 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Seriously? Your argument is "what about the children?" Seriously? GW2 has no children, children are not allowed to play (though I know several parents who get accounts for their 5, 6, and even 3 year olds and brag about it - don't dare call them out either, they'll cry foul), you're talking about teenagers and YES, it's bad to market Triple A type gambling at teenagers. It's also an excellent time to teach your teen about gambling/loot boxes/blind bags/lootcrates and the whole swarmy culture that has invaded gaming and geek spaces. There's also another lesson you get to teach and that is that life is not fair and you don't need all the bells and whistles to enjoy it. Oh the temptation sucks, I know. I remember being a teenager and not getting to have all the things my peers did because my family was struggling. It wasn't fun but it was how things were. I'm glad people are putting a foot down now and going "Hey.. Anet.. can you not go this path? Can we tweak this? Can we not go the lootcrate direction?" but this game isn't "made for kids", it isn't marketed at kids, it's not a kid game. These teens are in an adult space, it's no one's job to bubble and protect them. Certainly not Anet's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > GW2 has no children, children are not allowed to play This is PEGI 12 game. These are children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
particlepinata.9865 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Aerlen.5326 said: > Seriously? Your argument is "what about the children?" > > Seriously? > > GW2 has no children, children are not allowed to play (though I know several parents who get accounts for their 5, 6, and even 3 year olds and brag about it - don't dare call them out either, they'll cry foul), you're talking about teenagers and YES, it's bad to market Triple A type gambling at teenagers. It's also an excellent time to teach your teen about gambling/loot boxes/blind bags/lootcrates and the whole swarmy culture that has invaded gaming and geek spaces. There's also another lesson you get to teach and that is that life is not fair and you don't need all the bells and whistles to enjoy it. Oh the temptation sucks, I know. I remember being a teenager and not getting to have all the things my peers did because my family was struggling. It wasn't fun but it was how things were. > > I'm glad people are putting a foot down now and going "Hey.. Anet.. can you not go this path? Can we tweak this? Can we not go the lootcrate direction?" but this game isn't "made for kids", it isn't marketed at kids, it's not a kid game. These teens are in an adult space, it's no one's job to bubble and protect them. Certainly not Anet's. 12, 13 year old is absolutely a child, they might not feel it that way, but they are in now way mature in behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 More importantly, in the eyes of the law they are considered as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplethoraof.2643 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 "Think of the children" has always been the argument of choice for people who don't have the imagination or resolve to come up with a solid argument or those who wish to desire to petty fear-mongering. A good choice for despot politicians. A) If those children are getting money from their parents, they can spend it however they like. Remember trading cards? That was gambling too. Also, that is shitty parenting. Not anet's issue. B) If those children are stealing money from their parents, that is just shitty parenting. Not anet's issue. Aside from that shitty argument. . . I'm feeling lazy, and there are so many threads on this. So I'll just c/p what I wrote in another: "I don't think they should repeat this for future skins. But I think the playerbase should also keep things on the level that it really is. Blowing it out of proportion just makes the issue hard or impossible to solve. If everyone is exaggerating all over the place, noone can get a proper grasp on the issue (if there even is one to begin with). If people really want a solution, they will keep this on point and not to over-the-top with exaggerations and anecdotes. Since people are going over the top, I can only assume that people are bored and need a complaint bandwagon to jump on. This issue is a "fad issue" and will vanish as soon as people get bored with arguing over it. And it'll be business as usual after that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leolas.6273 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Aerlen.5326 said: > Seriously? Your argument is "what about the children?" > > Seriously? > > GW2 has no children, children are not allowed to play (though I know several parents who get accounts for their 5, 6, and even 3 year olds and brag about it - don't dare call them out either, they'll cry foul), you're talking about teenagers and YES, it's bad to market Triple A type gambling at teenagers. It's also an excellent time to teach your teen about gambling/loot boxes/blind bags/lootcrates and the whole swarmy culture that has invaded gaming and geek spaces. There's also another lesson you get to teach and that is that life is not fair and you don't need all the bells and whistles to enjoy it. Oh the temptation sucks, I know. I remember being a teenager and not getting to have all the things my peers did because my family was struggling. It wasn't fun but it was how things were. > > I'm glad people are putting a foot down now and going "Hey.. Anet.. can you not go this path? Can we tweak this? Can we not go the lootcrate direction?" but this game isn't "made for kids", it isn't marketed at kids, it's not a kid game. These teens are in an adult space, it's no one's job to bubble and protect them. Certainly not Anet's. PEGI 12 is not child okei im now living on the mars or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashagar.8349 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > > Either make sure that your underage kids are playing and spending money in online games in a responsible fashion or dont let them play online at all. > > > > > > > > And most importantly, be a role model to your kids in those regards as well and dont make cosmetic shinies in a video game such a big deal of your life. > > > > > > It's not about what the children are or are not doing, it's about what the children are *learning.* Whether a parent *allows* them to gamble in the game or not, if the kid is playing, and sees all these cool skins, and knows that the only way to get them is to gamble for them, then they learn that gambling is good, whether they're allowed to actively participate in it or not. It's like taking your kid onto the casino floor and letting them watch you play blackjack. **The only way to not expose them to that is to not let them play GW2 at all.** > > > > > > > > Exactly, thats what I mean. If the parents feel like GW2 is teaching their kid wrong values, dont let them play it. Its the parents' responsibility to make that choice. > > Sure, but given that GW2 has so many positive elements to offer kids, it would be a shame if parents felt it necessary to make that choice. Ideally ANet would not force them to do so. > > > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > But, you do have some amount of control over what lessons are being learned here. Like, you can just as easily make it a positive learning experience for them if you really want, I don't believe that you can honestly claim that it's an inherently negative one. > > It's an inherently negative one. > > Honest. > > There are theoretically ways that you could arrange things that it would teach them a lesson about gambling, but it would be contrived and could easily backfire, like in those old Donald Duck cartoons where he thought the newphews were smoking so he forced them to smoke an entire carton until they got violently ill. It's too much of a double edged sword, and the lesson you end up teaching would very likely not be the one you intended to pass on. > > I... can only disagree with your assertion that it's inherently negative. Or, in fairness, with your assertion of honesty. I have never felt that the presence of a lucky dip in the vicinity of children was breeding uncontrollable gambling habits. Reading more and more of the complaints just make it sound like some fully grown adults have taken one too many life lessons from Veruca Salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 I've always wondered about this. Years ago there was questions about the legality of operating online gambling as MMOs do. But since they still do it I guess it was determined to be legal. Why that is, I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcShriek.5829 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @MsAngel.8640 said: > I am really concerned about this, the game is for children and young adults onward in age, but the way these things are offered it is gambling and that is very inappropriate, especially for children. A thirteen year old has very poor life skills as a rule and gambling in any form is attractive. > If these games are made for kids then those who think these things up need to look at the young they want to play. Micro transactions are all well and good, offer the skins separately, not on a RNG basis, those that want the skins will buy them. You guys want more money offer individual armour skin pieces or sets, not outfits, they will sell like hot cakes. > > A parent. > -= Nothing is fool-proof to a talented fool. =- This is not gambling. It's not even close to gambling. It's simply purchasing an unidentified skin. Every skin has the same market value. It may be a poor way to sell skins, but it's not gambling. Don't trivialize what gambling is by trying to label this gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Biff.5312 said: > I've always wondered about this. Years ago there was questions about the legality of operating online gambling as MMOs do. But since they still do it I guess it was determined to be legal. Why that is, I'm not sure. It's grey area. Current laws need updating . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanfearShadowflame.3189 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 I know many view this as gambling, and to an extent I do understand their view. However, gambling typically entails a 'risk' and this does not. In gambling you risk 'x' and potentially receive _nothing_ in return. There is no risk here. You are guaranteed a skin for every ticket you purchase. I don't think this is teaching 'gambling' per se. RNG is simply a marketing tactic, in essentially all industries. The child's toy in a happy meal. The hidden item in a box of cereal. That monopoly piece on your McDonald's fry. The prize on the under side of a soda lid. A raffle at your company's holiday party. It's all the same thing with the same intent - to entice you to purchase an item you may or may not have to begin with. If the enticement is good enough you'll purchase more than you typically would have if it's something you'd normally purchase. In a sense, it's right up there with trying to win the "big" prize at a carnival game. Some people find it fun. Some people hate it. What it _should_ be teaching is self-discipline, hard work, and goal setting. However, that requires the parent's of said children to do their job. (Or, for older players, self-discipline and will power.) For example, if my son would like these mount skins, he's going to work his butt off for them. Either to earn the real world money for gems (via chores, mowing other peoples lawns, etc) or working towards making the gold to convert to gems in game during the times he's allowed to play or a combination there of. There is no reason this could not be used as a positive teaching tool, but very few will step back and look it at it from that perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manasa Devi.7958 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @LanfearShadowflame.3189 said: > I know many view this as gambling, and to an extent I do understand their view. However, gambling typically entails a 'risk' and this does not. In gambling you risk 'x' and potentially receive _nothing_ in return. There is no risk here. You are guaranteed a skin for every ticket you purchase. A skin I don't want and won't ever use until the day I quit the game is the equivalent of nothing. Following your logic, playing roulette in a casino wouldn't be gambling if they gave you a piece of candy with every spin of the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfheart.7483 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Rashagar.8349 said: > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > @Wanze.8410 said: > > > > Either make sure that your underage kids are playing and spending money in online games in a responsible fashion or dont let them play online at all. > > > > > > > > And most importantly, be a role model to your kids in those regards as well and dont make cosmetic shinies in a video game such a big deal of your life. > > > > > > It's not about what the children are or are not doing, it's about what the children are *learning.* Whether a parent *allows* them to gamble in the game or not, if the kid is playing, and sees all these cool skins, and knows that the only way to get them is to gamble for them, then they learn that gambling is good, whether they're allowed to actively participate in it or not. It's like taking your kid onto the casino floor and letting them watch you play blackjack. The only way to not expose them to that is to not let them play GW2 at all. > > > > > > > > > > But, you do have some amount of control over what lessons are being learned here. Like, you can just as easily make it a positive learning experience for them if you really want, I don't believe that you can honestly claim that it's an inherently negative one. > > How old are you? 20s? 30s? 40s? You were not programmed to be exploited this way in your childhood years. You have self control. Currently the industry is teaching kids to enjoy gambling. To profit on it in the future. I collected sports trading cards when I was a kid in the 80's and early 90's. Opening booster packs of cards was always hit or miss whether I got something I wanted or not. It didn't teach me gambling was ok. My *parents* taught me gambling is a risk and if I do it then I better be prepared for the worst possible outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanfearShadowflame.3189 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > > @LanfearShadowflame.3189 said: > > I know many view this as gambling, and to an extent I do understand their view. However, gambling typically entails a 'risk' and this does not. In gambling you risk 'x' and potentially receive _nothing_ in return. There is no risk here. You are guaranteed a skin for every ticket you purchase. > A skin I don't want and won't ever use until the day I quit the game is the equivalent of nothing. Following your logic, playing roulette in a casino wouldn't be gambling if they gave you a piece of candy with every spin of the wheel. Just because you won't use it / dont like it doesnt mean you actually got nothing. You received an item, regardless of your like or dislike, for the $4 you spent. Roulette is a different animal than what we have here, and is intended to be highly risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthirten.6475 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Isn't every MMO a gamble on what loot you get? And I just want to point out the irony that this post comes when a popular "gambling" item comes out, but this parent seemed to ignore the ecto gamblers in the cities. I guess it's only a concern when you're interested in getting an item for yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manasa Devi.7958 Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 > @LanfearShadowflame.3189 said: > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said: > > > @LanfearShadowflame.3189 said: > > > I know many view this as gambling, and to an extent I do understand their view. However, gambling typically entails a 'risk' and this does not. In gambling you risk 'x' and potentially receive _nothing_ in return. There is no risk here. You are guaranteed a skin for every ticket you purchase. > > A skin I don't want and won't ever use until the day I quit the game is the equivalent of nothing. Following your logic, playing roulette in a casino wouldn't be gambling if they gave you a piece of candy with every spin of the wheel. > > Just because you won't use it / dont like it doesnt mean you actually got nothing. You received an item, regardless of your like or dislike, for the $4 you spent. > > Roulette is a different animal than what we have here, and is intended to be highly risky. Look, there is obviously a risk involved in these tickets: the risk of getting something you have no use for. That makes purchasing them a gamble. It's not rocket science (or even brain surgery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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