Some constructive feedback about Unhindered Combatant change.

[OriOri.8724]

> @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > @Elxdark.9702 said:

>

> > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

>

> That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

>

>

 

Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

 

If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@"Karl McLain.5604"

 

How come this style of “balancing” of adding punishment to basic gameplay mechanics be added across the board? No other class gets punished for using a trait or ability, and it’s not like this is the only trait that modifies/functions this same way, Rangers have a trait to remove conditions when using Dodge it has ICD so why couldn’t an ICD be added to the condition Removal aspect and separate the Condi cleanse from the modified Dodge? Mesmers have a trait that’s stun Breaks on Dodge so why don’t they get punished for breaking hard CC? Why not punish players for using Invulnerability skills so they don’t receive healing while they are untouchable?

 

Why punish one class by locking them out of basic gameplay design/mechanics shared by all classes? Why not make all classes get punished for certain Traits/Skill usage?

[Turk.5460]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> >

> > > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

> >

> > That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

> >

> >

>

> Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

>

> If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

 

You just don't get it. Pinning a DD down isn't some minor inconvenience like it is for most other professions that have a plethora of defenses and damage mitigation built into their kit. DD's don't have that, they have a single short block, a single long-cooldown shadowstep, and, if traited - evasion for 2 seconds at 50% hp. And you can't even compare something like spamming Disabling Shot to other profession's weapon skills.

[Exitus.3297]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> >

> > > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

> >

> > That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

> >

> >

>

> Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

>

> If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

 

UC was the strongest of the 3 Grandmaster traits in terms of how much it did. There is no question that UC needed to be toned down.

 

The issue here is the implementation of a double-edged sword into the trait. They could have just as easily toned the trait down in other ways. Making it so it removes one movement-impairing condition at a time would have been acceptable because it no longer becomes a double-edged sword, just a weaker trait that opponents can work around.

 

As it stands, 4 seconds of no endurance regeneration is about 20 endurance, 30 if you have Vigor (it doesn't regenerate even with Vigor to my knowledge, just direct endurance gains). That means that even breaking a cripple costs anywhere from 70 to 80 endurance.

 

I don't think most DD players have an issue with the fact UC needs to get toned down a little, especially if they get some compensation elsewhere. The reality is PvP and WvW are condi-spam fests, and UC was used as counterplay to the spam-fest. I just find it very ironic Karl mentioned there wasn't much counterplay to UC and its defensive nature when the trait itself was a form of counterplay. I'm not over exaggerating when I say it is pretty obvious they want to make it easier for classes to catch up to and kill the DD.

 

This nerf isn't a big deal in PvP mainly due to the DD's role. They shouldn't be committing to long fights to begin with. WvW is a completely different story. All this change does is send a giant sign to DD's "we don't want you to fight and be good at it." DD's are getting pigeon-holed into the role of +1/Decap in PvP, and this change just further enforces that. Stick to that role, and you are fine. Deviate from it and be punished.

 

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I want to see less pigeon-holing. Not more. That said, I'm thankful for Karl's response. I just simply do not agree with the approach.

[Carmela.8756]

What is funny...they nerf UC but adding a class like Mirage which has even more UC Dodge Styl + Insane Condi output xD Sry Karl but that is laughable.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @Carmela.8756 said:

> What is funny...they nerf UC but adding a class like Mirage which has even more UC Dodge Styl + Insane Condi output xD Sry Karl but that is laughable.

 

Not to mention it's a stun break so a hard CC not soft. Their utilities are also loaded with condi removal as well. So you're spot on. Guardians also have a shit ton as well.

 

So Karl needs better reasoning.

[CreedOfGod.9764]

 

> The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring.

 

So it was decided that the only way to kill a thief was to wait until there were no evade frames, then one shot. So you're forcing us to lose our evade frames much earlier in the fight so that we get one shot more easily? How is that fair?

[Tabootrinket.2631]

I have flashback of the Ricochet removal.

 

PTSD...

 

#givebackRicochet

[Lyger.5429]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> _1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?_

> **"One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."**

> Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

> The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

>

> _2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?_

> First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

>

> Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

>

> -SnB

 

Thanks for the explanation Karl, but why was nothing done to make deadeye more of a competitive pick, outside of the might stacking changes?

[Crinn.7864]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > > > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> > >

> > > > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > > > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

> > >

> > > That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

> >

> > If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

>

> You just don't get it. Pinning a DD down isn't some minor inconvenience like it is for most other professions that have a plethora of defenses and damage mitigation built into their kit. DD's don't have that, they have a single short block, a single long-cooldown shadowstep, and, if traited - evasion for 2 seconds at 50% hp. And you can't even compare something like spamming Disabling Shot to other profession's weapon skills.

 

Cripple and Chills doesn't stop the thief from dodging, stealthing, or using teleports. Being crippled or chilled has little impact on a thief's survivability because neither of those conditions stop the thief from using it's escape/avoidance tools. Immobilize is the only major threat to a thief since immobilize does prevent dodging, but immobilize is also a very rare condition with Ranger being the only class with easy access to it.

 

That isn't to say that cripples and chill have no impact on a thief, but those two conditions are hardly a death sentence like some are making it out to be.

 

 

[Zacchary.6183]

> @"Saku Joe.2857" said:

> > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> > > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > > > _1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?_

> > > > **"One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."**

> > > > Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

> > > > The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

> > > >

> > > > _2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?_

> > > > First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

> > > >

> > > > Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

> > > >

> > > > -SnB

> > >

> > > This makes no sense though. You say that it has no counter play, but thieves themselves needed it to have counter play against condition spam that exists in PvP. Like others have mentioned if we could be better at brawling than it would be okay but we aren't. Dash was part of thief survivability which is already poor at best.

> > >

> > > Thieves are very feast or famine. If we do not spike our target down our next best solution is to disengage and the reengage.

> > >

> > > You essentially killed this trait and made it probably the weakest out of grandmaster traits. Thieves now have two traits that one was best for condi builds and the other was always almost good enough and now is great as a 10% damage buff and potential combos.

> > >

> > > An easy fix would be to reduce the duration of exhaustion and enduracne regen penalization by a certain amount per condition removed. That way using it to clear only 1 still hits but using it to its fullest potential is not punishing.

> >

> > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

>

> ^This. Reading the majority of the post here give me the same feeling. **Its like no thief here played the class before 23th june 2015.**. Spam condi is there no doubt, but that doesn't mean UC wasn't OP.

> @Karl McLain.5604 hope your balance team will also start to tone down the condi spamfest too. Cheers for you reply on the forum tho.

 

I can vouch for this.

[Elxdark.9702]

> @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> > > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > > > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> > >

> > > > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > > > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

> > >

> > > That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > He did, at least in pvp you need to check your conditions and not spam your dodge button.

> > They want to keep thief mobility so they will nerf the way thief gets it and not the mobility itself, I disagree because it would have been much easier to just reduce the distance a bit and that's it but Anet loves to complicate things.

> > Maybe in PvE/WvW is worse but I think they made this nerf for pvp and the funny thing is that the other game modes were more affected in the end lol.

>

> You somewhat have to check since UC only removes the 3. So you do and you don't. But I agree on your last point. Also the swiftness being applied at the end is odd because it doesn't really do anything IMHO. Except if you are out of combat I guess.

 

> @Lyger.5429 said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > _1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?_

> > **"One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."**

> > Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

> > The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

> >

> > _2) If it was meant for competitive changes, why do PvE Daredevils have to take the blow, too?_

> > First off: As a rule we don't split skill and trait functionality changes ("functionality" being the keyword here). There are some things that we are okay with splitting such as damage, condition duration/stacks, resource cost, etc. However we don't want to make skills which apply different buffs or have different cast times or number of hits based on game mode. This rule is in place to preserve skill cohesion and prevent confusion when switching game modes. It's not a rule that we plan on changing.

> >

> > Secondarily: Its condition-removal is built-in and is inseparable from the dodge-mechanic so long as you have the trait equipped. It's feasibly possible to 'remove' the trait and return you to a 'normal' dodge, but consistency is also important in that your dodge button should pretty much always do the same thing.

> >

> > -SnB

>

> Thanks for the explanation Karl, but why was nothing done to make deadeye more of a competitive pick, outside of the might stacking changes?

 

Dead.. what? we only have 1 elite spec bro.

[Fiddle Irk.9710]

Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

[getalifeturd.8139]

Arenanet let us delete posts as well as editing them. You can't even balance players vs forums.

 

 

 

 

 

[Platanos.8107]

 

> Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

 

Disclaimer: I have only reached a really really low level of Plat last season.

 

What? Dominant compared to what? Other grandmaster traits? Are we seeing 2 or more thieves on one team in PvP now? I stopped PvPing for about a month, but unless the meta shifted, a +2 thief team comp doesn't really do that well. Are there not enough deadeyes? I personally don't think deadeyes do well against any other profession besides necros, and only with a p/p build.

 

 

in PvE, I don't see how it is dominant at all. Maybe for berry farming.

 

PvP? Well maybe if bounding dodger you know... didn't get nerfed. If you saw too many people migrating to Unhindered Combatant due to this nerf, maybe it's because the bounding dodger nerf was too big?

 

WvW? Understandable. But if thieves are going to be complete crap in zergs, I would expect them to be good at roaming and picking off stragglers.

 

Yes, I personally think Unhindered Combat is slightly over the top (I would be OK with the removal of the -10% damage), but so are many other professions traits. Additionally, some classes has tons of blocks and invulnerability on top of a high health pool or armor. Clearly that's unfair because you can't counterplay invulnerability, right?

 

There are many classes that can chain invulnerable/blocks or chain movement skills. By doing that, they can probably disengage any other profession besides thieves, but is that really a problem? In PvP, probably not because thief have a slightly worse team fight and 1v1 potential than most classes. In WvW, I agree though, that can be super annoying.

 

And there are also skills that go through evades.

Skills with area denial purposes: Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Dragon's Maw, Unsteady Ground, Static Field, Slick Shoes, Spectral Wall, Temporal Curtain's cripple, and others. Even shadowstepping over it will cause you to still get CC'd or damaged after going through it.

The pull skill for Guardian (the chain skill of Binding Blade) and Hunter's Verdict for Dragonhunter (the chain skill of Spear of Justice) are also unevadeable.

 

So don't say there's no counterplay either.

 

Tl;dr; Unhindered Combatant is slightly over the top, but this nerf basically reduces our ability to stay in fights by about 6 seconds.

[Rezzet.3614]

The > @"Fiddle Irk.9710" said:

> Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

 

The nerf it got is fine it makes thief have to actually play like other professions, everyone else does precisely as you say if they use all their dodges recklessly, they eat a can of whoop thief shouldnt be an exception and all of you ignore the fact dd has 3 evades instead of two and can refill 4 evades in 1 to 2 seconds via utilities one of them being a condi cleanse

[Fiddle Irk.9710]

Sorry Rezzet, but NO other class get's a 4 second 100% reduction of endurance regeneration for using their dodge when they have cripple, chill or immobilize on them. And why on earth should a thief have to play like another profession, it's NOT another profession, it's a thief. We don't have automatic invulnerability, stability, blocks. We don't have crazy passive healing or even crazy active healing. We have stealth (and that's subject to an ever amassing revealing among other classes, which btw thieves have no access to) and evasion. Dodging big hit's and stuns is using it wisely. Not being able to use your dodge because you have a movement impairing condition is NOT skilled game play, not a matter of using your dodges recklessly.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Fiddle Irk.9710" said:

> Sorry Rezzet, but NO other class get's a 4 second 100% reduction of endurance regeneration for using their dodge when they have cripple, chill or immobilize on them. And why on earth should a thief have to play like another profession, it's NOT another profession, it's a thief. We don't have automatic invulnerability, stability, blocks. We don't have crazy passive healing or even crazy active healing. We have stealth (and that's subject to an ever amassing revealing among other classes, which btw thieves have no access to) and evasion. Dodging big hit's and stuns is using it wisely. Not being able to use your dodge because you have a movement impairing condition is NOT skilled game play, not a matter of using your dodges recklessly.

 

You don't have passive defenses like other classes do because you have way more active defensives than other classes do. Thief at the plat+ level dies far less than any other class due to no other class being able to touch the thief. As Karl McLain said, the only realistic way to kill a good thief was a try and 1-bang them before they react, because once a thief reacts you have no chance of killing them.

 

If the endurance redux is such a problem then just put on bound, it's a extra leap finisher and gives a 10% damage bonus so that you can clean up those +1's faster.

[getalifeturd.8139]

They nerfed feline grace (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace) before making daredevil so that people would need to use daredevil to get their 3rd dodge again. Now they nerfed daredevil's unhindered combatant (most useful skill of all of them allowing mobility without shortbow) for evade thieves to make sure that people will have to play deadeye.

 

In doing so all Arenanet have done is forced thieves into d/p and shortbow that has been meta for thieves since the launch of the game. Bounding dodger and heartseeker in black powder for permastealth is more annoying to fight than evade thieves ever were. The difference between them is stealth is unpredictable and an escape mechanism while evades have to be timed and have counterplay since you can always see the thief.

 

It's obvious Arenanet want to lower the skill cap of thief by forcing them into a ganker playstyle rather than with skilled play a damage avoiding tank. It's ok for spellbreaker to have overpowered skills because they're all passive but when a thief actively uses his skills to survive that's not ok. Casuals are not encouraged to pvp and wvw if you have masters of the thief class dominating them after years of practice.

 

Pistolwhip (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip) was meta a long time ago and it was nerfed hard because it offered too much for a single skill. Reality is Arenanet will nerf what the players QQ the most about and that’s the truth. If a thread gets enough attention to be noticed by so many people jumping on the nerf thief bandwagon then it will happen. None of you have any real power except the masses. Majority rules in this world guys.

 

Anyway I will leave my old hotjoin build here for you guys to try in case you want some fun with something that isn't meta in this game. This was a fun way to play thief for me that wasn't a glass cannon like deadeye is. But it seems I am forced like the rest of the game into braindead dps like pvers.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsa6al0MhKnYxTw3JQ/ELVF180v9jv3FcCBQ3BcdFAA-jZROAByfQAi/EAc+TAAg9H6tMAA

 

Now instead of running s/p like me you could run s/d and try to play around the self-nerf of unhindered combatant with don't stop (recently they removed the icd). If you take hard to catch with signet of agility and channeled vigor you could still have enough dodges to survive.

 

All this does for me though is force me into my deadeye build which is of course what Arenanet wanted. It's got really high dps from range and the easiest playstyle of all time. Just press 3 to win and if you die well too bad because thief isn't supposed to be a duelist. (Am i right Arenanet?)

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsa6al0MhKnYxTw3JQ/EL7Em3SYLUD4nl7yg5WAo20mA-jZROABAs/QvlBO/JAI/BBI+TAAA

[Gwii.5972]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> _1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?_

> **"One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."**

> Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

> The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

 

Sorry but this is just meowing cat kitten. UC is dominant in what sense? They can't kill a thief fleeing? Well why does the thief have to flee in the first place? Have you ever thought of *that*?

[kKagari.6804]

> @"Fiddle Irk.9710" said:

> Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

 

Its the same shit every other class puts up with, except you have an extra dodge already and infinitely more ways to recover endurance. What you suggest can happen pre-patch anyways; you waste your dodge, you eat a big attack.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Gwii.5972 said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > _1) What was the reasoning behind the change to Unhindered Combatant?_

> > **"One important balance change in this update is the change to Unhindered Combatant. While thieves, and by extension daredevils, are intended to be slippery combatants, the escape potential for this trait was a little too high."**

> > Unhindered Combatant has long been dominant in multiple game-types. It represents a longer distance movement option, condition-break, and swiftness generator. We like these things.

> > The issue, however, is that there is almost no 'counter' play to the functionality... in that neither players nor designers have a way to whittle down the thief's defensive capabilities short of one-shotting them in a time where there are no evade frames occurring. We want the thief to remain incredibly mobile, but need to introduce some soft-counters so that there are methods to hinder the super-defensive nature of UC builds. We'll keep watch of Exhaustion's interactions with Unhindered Combatant and will adjust as necessary.

>

> Sorry but this is just meowing cat kitten. UC is dominant in what sense? They can't kill a thief fleeing? Well why does the thief have to flee in the first place? Have you ever thought of *that*?

 

Do you realize how flipping broken thief would be if they could brawl without having to "flee." The optimal comp would literally be 5 thieves.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Exitus.3297 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @omgdracula.6345 said:

> > > > @Elxdark.9702 said:

> > >

> > > > stop with the overreact act, jesus.

> > > > Every good thief i know has said me that the nerf while it's annoying it doesn't change anything, at least in PvP you should not be affected by this at all unless you're bad which I think a lot of thieves started to realize.

> > >

> > > That isn't really overreacting I am pretty much pointing out that Karl didn't really give any form of good reasoning. You can't sit there and deny that condi spam is not an issue. Dash was the thief counterplay to condi spam which Anet effectively nerfed for no real tangible reason. I am sure that in PvP it isn't a huge difference but like many have said it does affect PvE as well. No reason for the nerf should have crossed lines into pve.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Correction. Pre-nerf Dash was DD's way to be completely immune to movement impairing conditions due to DD's extra endurance and ridiculous endurance regen.

> >

> > If it was a general condi cleanse it actually would have been almost fine, but still a bit too powerful. That way you wouldn't be guaranteed to cleanse a movement impairing condition, and other players would actually have a chance at pinning you down. As it was, it was much too powerful.

>

> UC was the strongest of the 3 Grandmaster traits in terms of how much it did. There is no question that UC needed to be toned down.

>

> The issue here is the implementation of a double-edged sword into the trait. They could have just as easily toned the trait down in other ways. Making it so it removes one movement-impairing condition at a time would have been acceptable because it no longer becomes a double-edged sword, just a weaker trait that opponents can work around.

>

> As it stands, 4 seconds of no endurance regeneration is about 20 endurance, 30 if you have Vigor (it doesn't regenerate even with Vigor to my knowledge, just direct endurance gains). That means that even breaking a cripple costs anywhere from 70 to 80 endurance.

>

> I don't think most DD players have an issue with the fact UC needs to get toned down a little, especially if they get some compensation elsewhere. The reality is PvP and WvW are condi-spam fests, and UC was used as counterplay to the spam-fest. I just find it very ironic Karl mentioned there wasn't much counterplay to UC and its defensive nature when the trait itself was a form of counterplay. I'm not over exaggerating when I say it is pretty obvious they want to make it easier for classes to catch up to and kill the DD.

>

> This nerf isn't a big deal in PvP mainly due to the DD's role. They shouldn't be committing to long fights to begin with. WvW is a completely different story. All this change does is send a giant sign to DD's "we don't want you to fight and be good at it." DD's are getting pigeon-holed into the role of +1/Decap in PvP, and this change just further enforces that. Stick to that role, and you are fine. Deviate from it and be punished.

>

> I'm not sure about anyone else, but I want to see less pigeon-holing. Not more. That said, I'm thankful for Karl's response. I just simply do not agree with the approach.

 

Again, I'm right here with you guys on this change being poorly thought out and rather stupid way to nerf UC. But it _needed_ to be nerfed, and some thieves are still in denial over that fact.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Fiddle Irk.9710" said:

> Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

 

Here are your options

 

If in d/p:

- Interrupt the enemy's cast with headshot

- If they have stability use steal to interrupt instead

- If you can't do the above use shadowshot or blinding power to blind the incoming attack

- If you can't do the above use Shadow Step to escape

 

If in shortbow:

- use the evade on sb3 to evade the attack

- else use sb5 to teleport out

- if you don't have the ini for the above, use blinding powder to blind the attack

- if you don't have ini or blinding power use shadowstep to avoid the attack.

- don't forget about using steal to interrupt

 

If you can't do any of the above, then you've clearly been massively outplayed and deserve to die.

 

 

 

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Rezzet.3614 said:

> The > @"Fiddle Irk.9710" said:

> > Scenario: I'm in a fight and have one dodge left. I have cripple on me and don't want to dodge and thus be stuck without any endurance for the next 6 seconds ( 4 for the exhaustion and 2 for my endurance to refill enough to dodge) but then a warrior winds up with a big ol hammer stun, or a reaper executioner scythe ect. and what then? Eat it and get wrecked? Because if I go to dodge a big physical attack and happen to have a nearly ever present condition on me I get punished BIG TIME.....UC needing to be nerfed is debatable, the nerf it got is disgusting.

>

> The nerf it got is fine it makes thief have to actually play like other professions, everyone else does precisely as you say if they use all their dodges recklessly, they eat a can of whoop thief shouldnt be an exception and all of you ignore the fact dd has 3 evades instead of two and can refill 4 evades in 1 to 2 seconds via utilities one of them being a condi cleanse

 

Warrior can be built for better Endurance regen and can spam more evades than Thieves just fyi, oh and it’s Reckless Dodge can hit for 6-8k in Pvp fun times to be had, I rolled a War and with mah build I get to play as a better bound spam Thief with Dual daggers lol

 

Also no other class is punished and locked from a basic gameplay mechanic for a trait choice, so unless they start spreading the basic gameplay mechanic punishments around they need to find a different fix to UC.