Scourge Condition Build Discussion (PvE)

[Kinch.6490]

> @HardRider.2980 said:

> > @Kinch.6490 said:

> > > @Kam.4092 said:

> > > > @HardRider.2980 said:

> > > > Wouldn't a Superior Sigil of Torment also be good for the extra torment hit

> > >

> > > It's only 1 stack for five seconds on a five second CD. It might be ok in WvW, idk. It wouldn't really shine in PvE. It's also 50% chance on Crit, where Earth is 60% chance on Crit. Earth lasts 5 seconds on a 2 second CD. It would end up being more Bleeding stacks than Torment. Scourge will be doing Bleeding and Burning mainly, with Torment being in third place. Torment will still be great, but it's not worth using the Sigil.

> > >

> > > Also the damage math is the same for Bleeding and Torment. On a single target fight Earth will win, but on an AoE fight Torment may win. I'm not one for switching Sigils nonstop, but if you are rich, and it doesn't matter, then switching might be worth doing for AoE fights.

> > >

> > > I see the Sigil being good in WvW cause Scourge does a lot of Torment with the Sand Shade skills, and Punishments.

> >

> > But if you take the GM trait, Torment does 33% extra damage. That's not counting the additional damage when the target is moving. The Sigil would also ensure you have the maximum burn uptime, as well.

>

> This was my line of thinking.. The sigil only works in my mind when you take the GM torment trait. Additional burning and torment does a bit more damage for that 5 seconds.. But mostly for the burning tick

 

 

And it's AoE torment, iirc.

[Kam.4092]

I don't know, I guess it depends if 50% chance on Crit or 60% is better when testing it. I do think 2 Bleeding stacks would be better than 1 Torment. We do a lot of Torment with Sand Shade attacks to maintain the Burning Trait.

 

This is a really good question/observation though. Looking forward to testing.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> I don't know, I guess it depends if 50% chance on Crit or 60% is better when testing it. I do think 2 Bleeding stacks would be better than 1 Torment. We do a lot of Torment with Sand Shade attacks to maintain the Burning Trait.

>

> This is a really good question/observation though. Looking forward to testing.

 

It really depends on what you are doing. Sigil of tormenting's strength relative to earth is dependant on how many things are close by due to it being aoe unlike earth and demonic lore having an icd per target. The radius is easy to picture since its exactly the same size as manifest sand shade. Also you should be throwing out attacks fast enough that 50% or 60% is fairly irrelevant.

[HardRider.2980]

> @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > @Kam.4092 said:

> > I don't know, I guess it depends if 50% chance on Crit or 60% is better when testing it. I do think 2 Bleeding stacks would be better than 1 Torment. We do a lot of Torment with Sand Shade attacks to maintain the Burning Trait.

> >

> > This is a really good question/observation though. Looking forward to testing.

>

> It really depends on what you are doing. Sigil of tormenting's strength relative to earth is dependant on how many things are close by due to it being aoe unlike earth and demonic lore having an icd per target. The radius is easy to picture since its exactly the same size as manifest sand shade. Also you should be throwing out attacks fast enough that 50% or 60% is fairly irrelevant.

 

In pvp and PvE (Fractals) you're normally quite close to your enemies ("most" of the time) .. I don't think wvw would be an ideal place due to the environment you're in

 

 

[Thiazi.1250]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> my build has some similarities but I think you are underestimating something that you're not accounting for. And that's the addition of other professions as well as Might.

>

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArfWnE9CV3gN3AO9Cs9iFhBLKAkAeA6119aglqKkF6VA-jBjAQBR7JBEw9H4wBEAg6LApyvBcACAwJAwmKB3jGEQcAEgo6Pd4QAEAIBY8IeEPxDxT8EPxzusL7yusL7SXn4Jein4Jein4Jein4RKAI2bB-e

>

> Here's my build. Now let me express something to you. The Sand kitten will be giving you 75 expertise each for a total of 225. That's quite a bit, about 10% I believe? correct me if I'm wrong it could be higher than that. But also you have to note that the trait Fell Beacon combos with your Condition damage. So Might actually increases your condition duration by about 4%. Now lets add in other professions. Engineer gives a Passive 150 condition damage and warrior's Banner of Strength also grants a 170 condition damage. Think about that, you Shouldn't need those Runes to hit the cap. You can use berserker runes and still hit 100%. The reason I didn't take sigil of earth in favor of Smoldering is because I don't plan and weapon swapping all that much and I don't get the "On entering shroud bonus." I'd normally get. But to add to that, getting that bleeding and burning to 100% is extremely important.

>

> I will admit I can see the argument for torment's duration. But I think more testing will need to be done on that. We'll see. And as for the staff? Oh, that can be replaced with warhorn for raids. I personally prefer staff in Open world, Dungeons and fractals on a necromancer. Especially considering how life force starved the scourge will be and how well it handles large mobs.

 

75 Expertise is 5% duration, but we can only keep two shades up over long periods of time, so that's 10% free duration.

 

Also, stat conversion traits do not factor in temporary buffs like Might, Pinpoint Distribution, and Banner of Strength. Only base+equipment counts. Fell Beacon is about 6.27% more duration, less if we use a mixed rune set (5.93% for 4 Nightmare 2 Trapper).

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

You know, if we don't see buffs to mainhand dagger, is it possible Focus actually becomes used instead of off-hand dagger? I don't think the loss of the transfer is going to matter much due to the fact we'll be using F2 frequently anyway, and as such probably lose some damage from Blood is Power anyway. 2 stacks of 20 second bleeds also probably won't be missed in the face of greater life force gain. 16.5% every 15 seconds (10 with Alacrity, IIRC, probably don't) might be enough to make up the difference on Scourge.

[Kam.4092]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> You know, if we don't see buffs to mainhand dagger, is it possible Focus actually becomes used instead of off-hand dagger? I don't think the loss of the transfer is going to matter much due to the fact we'll be using F2 frequently anyway, and as such probably lose some damage from Blood is Power anyway. 2 stacks of 20 second bleeds also probably won't be missed in the face of greater life force gain. 16.5% every 15 seconds (10 with Alacrity, IIRC, probably don't) might be enough to make up the difference on Scourge.

 

Blood is Power is 4 stacks of Bleeding, and 2 stacks of self Bleeding. With Master of Corruptions it adds 2 stacks of self Torment. So overall it's 6 stacks of Bleeding and 2 stacks of Torment. It also gives 10 stacks of Might.

 

I don't see us ever dropping Blood is Power, and Offhand Dagger or Staff for transferring.

 

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > You know, if we don't see buffs to mainhand dagger, is it possible Focus actually becomes used instead of off-hand dagger? I don't think the loss of the transfer is going to matter much due to the fact we'll be using F2 frequently anyway, and as such probably lose some damage from Blood is Power anyway. 2 stacks of 20 second bleeds also probably won't be missed in the face of greater life force gain. 16.5% every 15 seconds (10 with Alacrity, IIRC, probably don't) might be enough to make up the difference on Scourge.

>

> Blood is Power is 4 stacks of Bleeding, and 2 stacks of self Bleeding. With Master of Corruptions it adds 2 stacks of self Torment. So overall it's 6 stacks of Bleeding and 2 stacks of Torment. It also gives 10 stacks of Might.

>

> I don't see us ever dropping Blood is Power, and Offhand Dagger or Staff for transferring.

>

>

 

No, not dropping Blood is Power. Just dropping the transfer that follows it.

 

The question is if the 2 20 second bleeds and torment are worth the extra life force. I think it's at least worth testing once we can.

[Drawing Guy.3701]

While Offhand Dagger plays extremely well with Corruption skills for throwing off conditions for additional DPS, F2 now converts those conditions into Boons. BiP turns into Might and Vigor, Epidemic turns into Might and Protection, etc. OH Dagger or Staff is no longer has a factor of protection against your own corruption skills and condis on a Scourge, but simply question of DPS.

 

I took quite a bit of time to throw out LF numbers in my previous post. While they don't include utilities currently, which I certainly can add, those can be used to help theory craft optimal rotations. A dagger + Focus can come close with proper utilities, and Vitality can close the gap for a build that could... but I don't see the DPS loss of Vit gear being worth it. Though really F4 is the big killer as it is horribly inefficient LF to DPS even traited with an extra Torment and Terror damage. L4 should be saved for breakbars and interrupts in most situations. And Dagger + Focus _can_ support 2, 3, 5 spam with situational 4 (assuming an additional LF ability like Desiccate), but is borderline. Too many interrupts from your auto-attack chain or a different OH weapon is all it would take to make that fall short.

 

While I don't think 2, 3, 5 spam will be the top DPS potential, still think it will be nearly-so. Definitely don't think 2-5 spam will be top as the cost to maintain 4 on CD along with the other skills is simply too high unless you have tons of deaths or targets constantly lining up perfectly for Staff auto.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

So anyone math out how adding some vitality to the mix could impact the realistic upkeep of Life Force? It would seem that Trailblazer might be a good set for this. I plan on running this in open world and doing some just for variety raid tanking on this for funzies, aka Xera.

[Kam.4092]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> So anyone math out how adding some vitality to the mix could impact the realistic upkeep of Life Force? It would seem that Trailblazer might be a good set for this. I plan on running this in open world and doing some just for variety raid tanking on this for funzies, aka Xera.

 

I'd like a stat set that was Viper's, but just dropped Power for Vitality.

[Simeonus.9237]

I'll most likely use [this build](http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArfWnE9CV3gN3Ae3As9iFhBLKAkAeA6119aglqKkF6VA-jRyCQBtUJ4FV+hsnAwBV/hK7KMtTAw90HAgDBQ4WKgUAKqsC-e "this build"). I thought more about open world and wvw(will change viper to trailblazer and make it full nightmare runes, tho) and staff is pretty useful for initial burst and lf generation(2-3-4-5-2). Most of the time you want to use scepter/torch anyways. I also think that using better food than super veggie pizza is an overkill, you don't really need more than extra 5% condi duration from food, cause shades provide missing 10% anyways. Same goes for furious tuning crystal, toxic is more than enough. Although I wonder if gw2skills calculator is correct, do might and corruption stacks really work with [Fell Beacon ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fell_Beacon "Fell Beacon ")trait? Because with 25 might and 25 corruption stacks you get extra 5% condition damage, it means with rare veggie pizza and 25 stacks of might even w/o corruption which are hardly to obtain in raid scenario you have 95% condition duration, so you just need 1 shade and that would be very easy to maintain.

[Kam.4092]

> @Simeonus.9237 said:

> I'll most likely use [this build](http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNArfWnE9CV3gN3Ae3As9iFhBLKAkAeA6119aglqKkF6VA-jRyCQBtUJ4FV+hsnAwBV/hK7KMtTAw90HAgDBQ4WKgUAKqsC-e "this build"). I thought more about open world and wvw(will change viper to trailblazer and make it full nightmare runes, tho) and staff is pretty useful for initial burst and lf generation(2-3-4-5-2). Most of the time you want to use scepter/torch anyways. I also think that using better food than super veggie pizza is an overkill, you don't really need more than extra 5% condi duration from food, cause kitten provide missing 10% anyways. Same goes for furious tuning crystal, toxic is more than enough. Although I wonder if gw2skills calculator is correct, do might and corruption stacks really work with [Fell Beacon ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fell_Beacon "Fell Beacon ")trait? Because with 25 might and 25 corruption stacks you get extra 5% condition damage, it means with rare veggie pizza and 25 stacks of might even w/o corruption which are hardly to obtain in raid scenario you have 95% condition duration, so you just need 1 shade and that would be very easy to maintain

 

Staff has its uses, but I only see it used in some Fractals for auto attack spam. It's the best Life Force generating weapon for groups of enemies.

It will still be used in PvP and WvW though.

 

I'll be using this now.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRArY4fnE9CN9iV3Ae3A83gFhBjaKkF6VRBgEwDQvuuXDsA-jBiHQBaUJIAOJA06JA4sdAIoyP6p+D50PEklHWHgAcumr5augH4AH4AH4AGgDcgDM35O35egDcApAWUvF-e

 

The current Condition Reaper build uses Bursting and Geomancy Sigils. I see these being best for Scourge as well, unless Torment Sigils end up synergizing with Demonic Lore.

 

In a Raid you'll maintain 2 Shades always with Alacrity. I don't raid though, so what I do really doesn't matter.

 

I expect Malice Sigils to used in Raids, and swapping some Viper's armor to Sinister.

 

I mainly do Open World, Fractals, WvW, and Dungeons, so basically everything but Raid.

[Simeonus.9237]

Isn't scourge elite better than plaguelands? I mean plaguelands can be good on reaper, cause chill=bleed and blind=chill=bleed but for scourge it seems to be weak.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Plaguelands should still be better for damage, though Ghastly Breach will probably beat it with high boon amounts on enemies.