"Class Hate in WvW"

[atheria.2837]

> @Samnang.1879 said:

> All classes have a usefulness in wvw.

 

Not according to many commanders - and they are the once, at times, one must run with to find anyone on any maps.

 

Being dismissed and much worse is still happening.

[Nate.3927]

> @atheria.2837 said:

> > @Samnang.1879 said:

> > All classes have a usefulness in wvw.

>

> Not according to many commanders - and they are the once, at times, one must run with to find anyone on any maps.

>

> Being dismissed and much worse is still happening.

 

Why not just roam solo? You don't always need to follow the zerg.

[Cerby.1069]

 

> @Sovereign.1093 said:

> > @Cerby.1069 said:

> > class hatred is a community issue that the devs shouldnt bother worrying about. its not their fault their player base is so primitive.......but their game appeals and attracts primitive players........so ya ok mbe it is their fault.

> >

> > creates a rather blurry line of thinking when you place that much onus on the creators to guide how players go about playing the game tho. i mean worldly events also set people up to react a certain way when presented with a choice ingame.

> >

> > so for those of you who dont follow heres an example: its world war 3. ur taking a break playin ur game cause thats just how addictive escapism can be when u playin something so simplistic and mind~numbingly micro loot intensive. ur bound to be less nice to people ingame and vice versa with a war going on. the devs shouldnt be responsible for retroactively changing the game to promote nicer interactions, right? I mean its great if they did without ill effect but they shouldnt be held responsible. mainly due to how difficult the solution could be and how difficult it is to prepare for or predict such problems.

> > safeguards should be made for the benefit of the company tho to prevent communities from outright destroying themselves and the game....but the company has no moral obligations when deciding what level of safeguard is chosen and/or if/when it activates.

> >

> > > @Sovereign.1093 said:

> > > everyone has a place.

> >

> >

> > everyone thumbs down. hahahha.

> > **-everyone makes a place -** is a more apt description.

> >

>

> everyone has a place. =)

 

No I was very careful when I wrote that. Its "Makes" rather than "has".

-everyone makes a place- Its written this way because we cannot control the influx of players coming into the game. Nor can we tell them what to do or how to play. We can only accept the fact that they come into the picture and move of their own volition.

They choose their own place.....they don't necessarily "have" one in the ranks....they make one. Its like having people showup in a modern city with modern rules, and having them start declaring parts of a city an independent country. They can do ridiculous detrimental things that don't have any place in the community and they are accepted.........accepted cause you have no choice but to accept them since you can't stop them from doing so. We are all our own little islands.....your island doesn't have a place ontop of my island, you make a place ontop of my island.

[Sovereign.1093]

=) literally everyone has a place as long as they log in and play. now for people to unite and do something together is based on meeting of minds.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @Sovereign.1093 said:

> =) literally everyone has a place as long as they log in and play. now for people to unite and do something together is based on meeting of minds.

 

Unless ques. :p

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @atheria.2837 said:

> > @Samnang.1879 said:

> > All classes have a usefulness in wvw.

>

> Not according to many commanders - and they are the once, at times, one must run with to find anyone on any maps.

>

> Being dismissed and much worse is still happening.

 

Commanders only control who is on their squad. Nothing else.

 

Roaming, havoc include many other builds that are not welcomed into the squad.

 

Also, if I want to Zerg, I get on my reaper or tempest. I don't play guard or rev enough.

 

If I am going PvE I zerk up whatever class I want to play.

 

I don't raid, but if I did, I would research what was needed and learn that style. I don't expect any commander to change their style for me.

 

If my class is welcome, great. If not, I change classes or run havoc/ roam. It is that simple

[Arzurag.7506]

I don´t get it, if we talk about power-necro then this caricature is not right/true.

If it´s about condi-necro then I gladfully agree.

Or I disagree because reaper is a threat, condi-necro not that much.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

you can most likely find good parties in wvw if you are:

vocal in ts3 / discord or whatever, and not a douche

play a useful build

aren't terrible at the game

[dagneyandleo.6378]

Beyond whether the class is useful or not, there is also the factor of whether the commander knows what to expect in how they use those classes. If I'm commanding and a druid enters the squad, I know they're in a role as a healer. If a necro enters squad, I know I'm getting AoE damage (either power, condi or hybrid) most likely with some type of cd component. If a guard enters the squad, I'm getting stability. If a rev enters the squad, resistance + either power backline-ish or condi melee boon strip. If an engi enters the squad, I'm getting... Well, who knows. That's what makes engi rough to comp with lol.

 

There are certain expectations of in terms of the roles of classes on entering - And you use that to structure your squad into a balanced fighting group. If I'm going against a condi heavy group, I'll rely on those revs to give resistance and guards and eles to cleanse the condis - If multiple revs/eles in the squad have built themselves outside that expectation, and they're not informing the commander, we've lost that fight before we even engage it.

 

It is on the player who joins the squad to *know* that expectation when they join - And inform the commander if they don't match so they can structure the squad appropriately. If you come on a pew-pew ranger, for example, to my squad, I'm not hating on you or your class when I put you in a party of your own - Most likely I have limited spots with guards/revs and the people who join on a class that needs the protection more and can provide squad utility (ie. mesmer, necro, ele) will get priority. Now, if I tag up to pugmand and I have a squad of 20 with 2 guards, including myself, no revs, 7 necros, 5 rangers, 3 thieves and 3 engis (entirely plausible during EU time for example)... I will ask people to swap. I will sit at spawn waiting until it happens or I will tag down - Not because necros, rangers, thieves or engis are bad. All of those classes can add to the squad, but they need support to be at their most effective on a commander. Otherwise, my tag is a distraction at best and a liability at worst: With that type of comp, your best bet is clouding it up Mag-style. I can't direct a forward push without any sustain. Especially since my own commanding style is pretty damn aggressive.

 

I think a misconception with many new to WvW is that when a commander says a class is "bad", they think it's a statement about them: What the commander is saying is that your class is "bad" for their style of play and not what they need to balance the comp. Just like you get to play what you want in terms of builds, so do commanders: Their build is their squad and who's in it and they build it to being as effective for their playstyle as they can. If they readjust their build to not include you, it's not a personal insult. It's just them using the tools they have available to optimize group play.

[Artaz.3819]

You don't need to be IN the zerg to follow it around.

 

But the reason SB/LB Rangers are hated is because they kill other friendlies (projectile hate is heavily used in WvW because it is really powerful for 100% mitigation and killing opponents).

 

Just waiting for the Deadeye Rifle and Renegade SB to learn their lesson...just be thankful though that the Spellbreaker Elite doesn't reflect projectiles and only blocks or the commander /trolling would be real.

[Shadowresli.3782]

> @dagneyandleo.6378 said:

> Beyond whether the class is useful or not, there is also the factor of whether the commander knows what to expect in how they use those classes. If I'm commanding and a druid enters the squad, I know they're in a role as a healer. If a necro enters squad, I know I'm getting AoE damage (either power, condi or hybrid) most likely with some type of cd component. If a guard enters the squad, I'm getting stability. If a rev enters the squad, resistance + either power backline-ish or condi melee boon strip. If an engi enters the squad, I'm getting... Well, who knows. That's what makes engi rough to comp with lol.

>

> There are certain expectations of in terms of the roles of classes on entering - And you use that to structure your squad into a balanced fighting group. If I'm going against a condi heavy group, I'll rely on those revs to give resistance and guards and eles to cleanse the condis - If multiple revs/eles in the squad have built themselves outside that expectation, and they're not informing the commander, we've lost that fight before we even engage it.

>

> It is on the player who joins the squad to *know* that expectation when they join - And inform the commander if they don't match so they can structure the squad appropriately. If you come on a pew-pew ranger, for example, to my squad, I'm not hating on you or your class when I put you in a party of your own - Most likely I have limited spots with guards/revs and the people who join on a class that needs the protection more and can provide squad utility (ie. mesmer, necro, ele) will get priority. Now, if I tag up to pugmand and I have a squad of 20 with 2 guards, including myself, no revs, 7 necros, 5 rangers, 3 thieves and 3 engis (entirely plausible during EU time for example)... I will ask people to swap. I will sit at spawn waiting until it happens or I will tag down - Not because necros, rangers, thieves or engis are bad. All of those classes can add to the squad, but they need support to be at their most effective on a commander. Otherwise, my tag is a distraction at best and a liability at worst: With that type of comp, your best bet is clouding it up Mag-style. I can't direct a forward push without any sustain. Especially since my own commanding style is pretty kitten aggressive.

>

> I think a misconception with many new to WvW is that when a commander says a class is "bad", they think it's a statement about them: What the commander is saying is that your class is "bad" for their style of play and not what they need to balance the comp. Just like you get to play what you want in terms of builds, so do commanders: Their build is their squad and who's in it and they build it to being as effective for their playstyle as they can. If they readjust their build to not include you, it's not a personal insult. It's just them using the tools they have available to optimize group play.

 

this comment should be stickied in game, in the loading screen for every wvw map! the sad thing is, that commanders mostly think like this, but only a chosen few can explain it as eloquently as you (or they don't want to take the time, ergo ranger = bad)

[Anthony.7630]

You can play a zerg class or a roam class. Or you can play an engineer. Engineer is bad at all game modes. Every other profession brings something better than an engineer.

 

Please buff engineer to be viable in spvp wvw fractals or raids. Engineers suck at everything or everything but engineer is overtuned.

 

Its not skill. We bring no damage that a thief roamer or condi bomb necro can bring

 

We dont bring much stability or group aegis or group resistances excet med kit and runes of durability

 

I bet you engineer is played by the kindest most patient souls and we get punish for it.

 

/end rant.

[Tomahawk.7361]

For the record I am not offended at all that rangers and thieves getting put in gank parties in a squad. I understand that when I play those classes I give less boons and dont require boons other classes in a group comp desperately need, ie - rev losing stab because no gaurdian boons are getting through. People should not be offended by those things. I purposefully place myself in back squads of other rangers thieves zerker shatter mesmers etc.

 

Also got to second the comment above me on engis. We are desperatey tired of hammer alch invent builds. Who wants to play with drinking potions when there are mines grenades gadgets turrets flamethrowers and rifles to play with. One of the most complex and fun rotation classes became a hammer wielding potion drinker, mehhhhhh.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @Sovereign.1093 said:

> > =) literally everyone has a place as long as they log in and play. now for people to unite and do something together is based on meeting of minds.

>

> Unless ques.

 

hehe true that

[Swamurabi.7890]

> @Shadowresli.3782 said:

> > @dagneyandleo.6378 said:

> > Beyond whether the class is useful or not, there is also the factor of whether the commander knows what to expect in how they use those classes. If I'm commanding and a druid enters the squad, I know they're in a role as a healer. If a necro enters squad, I know I'm getting AoE damage (either power, condi or hybrid) most likely with some type of cd component. If a guard enters the squad, I'm getting stability. If a rev enters the squad, resistance + either power backline-ish or condi melee boon strip. If an engi enters the squad, I'm getting... Well, who knows. That's what makes engi rough to comp with lol.

> >

> > There are certain expectations of in terms of the roles of classes on entering - And you use that to structure your squad into a balanced fighting group. If I'm going against a condi heavy group, I'll rely on those revs to give resistance and guards and eles to cleanse the condis - If multiple revs/eles in the squad have built themselves outside that expectation, and they're not informing the commander, we've lost that fight before we even engage it.

> >

> > It is on the player who joins the squad to *know* that expectation when they join - And inform the commander if they don't match so they can structure the squad appropriately. If you come on a pew-pew ranger, for example, to my squad, I'm not hating on you or your class when I put you in a party of your own - Most likely I have limited spots with guards/revs and the people who join on a class that needs the protection more and can provide squad utility (ie. mesmer, necro, ele) will get priority. Now, if I tag up to pugmand and I have a squad of 20 with 2 guards, including myself, no revs, 7 necros, 5 rangers, 3 thieves and 3 engis (entirely plausible during EU time for example)... I will ask people to swap. I will sit at spawn waiting until it happens or I will tag down - Not because necros, rangers, thieves or engis are bad. All of those classes can add to the squad, but they need support to be at their most effective on a commander. Otherwise, my tag is a distraction at best and a liability at worst: With that type of comp, your best bet is clouding it up Mag-style. I can't direct a forward push without any sustain. Especially since my own commanding style is pretty kitten aggressive.

> >

> > I think a misconception with many new to WvW is that when a commander says a class is "bad", they think it's a statement about them: What the commander is saying is that your class is "bad" for their style of play and not what they need to balance the comp. Just like you get to play what you want in terms of builds, so do commanders: Their build is their squad and who's in it and they build it to being as effective for their playstyle as they can. If they readjust their build to not include you, it's not a personal insult. It's just them using the tools they have available to optimize group play.

>

> this comment should be stickied in game, in the loading screen for every wvw map! the sad thing is, that commanders mostly think like this, but only a chosen few can explain it as eloquently as you (or they don't want to take the time, ergo ranger = bad)

 

But it's not only the commanders that share this opinion. I played Necro for years and not having stability from one or preferably two guardians is a bad game experience. Instead of thinking of a squad in terms of professions it should be classified as roles. These roles are Stability, Resistance, DPS, Healer, Cleanse, CC. All of these must not be just for the individual but affect as many as possible. If Anet was really serious about WvW skill balance they would have classes that could do mulitiple roles so that if a commander wanted to balance their comp instead of leaving WvW and coming back in with another profession, assuming no queues, you could just change your build and stay in the map.

 

Population balance and Role balance should be the top two things to fix on Anet's WvW list.

[XenesisII.1540]

And then you might end up with watered down classes that can do everything and maybe even replace even more classes. That's the whole reason to have roles is to have players rely on other classes to cover their weaknesses. The problem here is anet have made a couple classes completely useless or overshadowed in some situations or too good that you always need them in groups, like again why bring a druid when a tempest will do the same job and add more value to a group with aura and boon sharing.

 

Boons are also party first, and obviously there's limited space for those classes that need it first. Is that ranger pewpewing in the back line going to need it as much as your front and mid liners? obviously not. The other problem is the limit they have on certain boons like stability which means you always need a guardian, resistance which have booted warriors completely out of groups in favor of revenants, tempest which can fill in healing cleanses boon sharing and even mid line aoe damage, reapers for aoe and corruption, that's pretty much 2-4 spots in a group of 5 always reserved. They've gone the route of heavy aoe boon and condition combat that they've further pushed some classes into the meta making them hard to replace, and leaving certain classes behind in the dust.

 

This isn't a problem of commanders, players who lead will always want the best and efficient builds to make up their comps if possible. If a player wants to play the outliner class or build then it's up to them to convince others that it's worth bringing them on that build, show others it's worth and not sit around crying you can't get into a zerg to get boons to carry you. The game design has played a huge factor in creating the meta, you can blame the players all you want, but in the end it still comes down to class design and where they fit in each aspect of roaming, havocing, zerging, raiding. Know your role, accept it's limitations, and try to improve and enjoy it's positives.

 

[KeyOrion.9506]

"The thief vaults over your head while your facing wrong direction when firing bow. Your weapon skill automatically fails and is now on cooldown. Turn your body to face the thief. The thief vaults again to your rear as you fire your skill. Your weapon skill automatically fails and is on cool down."

 

It's both funny and not funny. Because it is __true_

[Henry.5713]

> @dagneyandleo.6378 said:

> Beyond whether the class is useful or not, there is also the factor of whether the commander knows what to expect in how they use those classes. If I'm commanding and a druid enters the squad, I know they're in a role as a healer. If a necro enters squad, I know I'm getting AoE damage (either power, condi or hybrid) most likely with some type of cd component. If a guard enters the squad, I'm getting stability. If a rev enters the squad, resistance + either power backline-ish or condi melee boon strip. If an engi enters the squad, I'm getting... Well, who knows. That's what makes engi rough to comp with lol.

>

> There are certain expectations of in terms of the roles of classes on entering - And you use that to structure your squad into a balanced fighting group. If I'm going against a condi heavy group, I'll rely on those revs to give resistance and guards and eles to cleanse the condis - If multiple revs/eles in the squad have built themselves outside that expectation, and they're not informing the commander, we've lost that fight before we even engage it.

>

> It is on the player who joins the squad to *know* that expectation when they join - And inform the commander if they don't match so they can structure the squad appropriately. If you come on a pew-pew ranger, for example, to my squad, I'm not hating on you or your class when I put you in a party of your own - Most likely I have limited spots with guards/revs and the people who join on a class that needs the protection more and can provide squad utility (ie. mesmer, necro, ele) will get priority. Now, if I tag up to pugmand and I have a squad of 20 with 2 guards, including myself, no revs, 7 necros, 5 rangers, 3 thieves and 3 engis (entirely plausible during EU time for example)... I will ask people to swap. I will sit at spawn waiting until it happens or I will tag down - Not because necros, rangers, thieves or engis are bad. All of those classes can add to the squad, but they need support to be at their most effective on a commander. Otherwise, my tag is a distraction at best and a liability at worst: With that type of comp, your best bet is clouding it up Mag-style. I can't direct a forward push without any sustain. Especially since my own commanding style is pretty kitten aggressive.

>

> I think a misconception with many new to WvW is that when a commander says a class is "bad", they think it's a statement about them: What the commander is saying is that your class is "bad" for their style of play and not what they need to balance the comp. Just like you get to play what you want in terms of builds, so do commanders: Their build is their squad and who's in it and they build it to being as effective for their playstyle as they can. If they readjust their build to not include you, it's not a personal insult. It's just them using the tools they have available to optimize group play.

 

Now this is something worth quoting. Well said.

Commanders go with what they know will work. They go with what they expect others to be able to play. A guild group can adjust their strategies and compositions to something much more unorthodox and make it shine. A pug commander does not have that luxury. It is already hard enough to find people who understand what is expected of them as a guardian or revenant, let alone to find those who have enough of a understanding to adjust their unorthodox builds to what they see is missing in their party such as stability, condition removal or bombs if they do not happen to be on the class that is best known for those things.

It seems that many players still do not understand why having certain builds is so important when facing equally well equipped squads or they do refuse to see it. They do not bother themselves with strategies or effective compositions. But then they still like to win like everyone else and are so usually the first ones to throw the blame on the commander and to log off when their side starts losing. A little paradox, isn't it.