Change Idea: Corrosive Poison Cloud

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Sarrs.4831 said:

> I did, I said stuff about a corruption build. It's really good in a MoC build. The 33% cooldown reduction makes this skill much better at its job; deleting ranged projectile pressure, which is one of necromancer's weak points. It's still somewhat useful in a non-corruptions build, but it really shines in an MoC build.

> I am really confused about where your perspective is coming from. The skill's useful; I have found a use for it, therefore it is useful. Agree to disagree if you like, but I don't think it needs a buff. What you suggest might even be a downgrade if you do 2+ play.

 

From what he said across the thread, he want it to be a skill that allow him to ignore projectile when he charge from his zerg to the enemy zerg. And honnestly that's probably the only thing he get from it's suggestion. However in reality this skill still won't allow him to ignore all the aoe between it's zerg and the enemy zerg, leading to him still dying trying to close the gap. So from my perspective It's still better to keep the current CPC than have his idea.

 

NB.: also that skill already see plenty of use be it in PvE or PvP. It does have a lot more usefullness than a selfish projectile shield.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Sarrs.4831 said:

> > I did, I said stuff about a corruption build. It's really good in a MoC build. The 33% cooldown reduction makes this skill much better at its job; deleting ranged projectile pressure, which is one of necromancer's weak points. It's still somewhat useful in a non-corruptions build, but it really shines in an MoC build.

> > I am really confused about where your perspective is coming from. The skill's useful; I have found a use for it, therefore it is useful. Agree to disagree if you like, but I don't think it needs a buff. What you suggest might even be a downgrade if you do 2+ play.

>

> From what he said across the thread, he want it to be a skill that allow him to ignore projectile when he charge from his zerg to the enemy zerg. And honnestly that's probably the only thing he get from it's suggestion. However in reality this skill still won't allow him to ignore all the aoe between it's zerg and the enemy zerg, leading to him still dying trying to close the gap. So from my perspective It's still better to keep the current CPC than have his idea.

>

> NB.: also that skill already see plenty of use be it in PvE or PvP. It does have a lot more usefullness than a selfish projectile shield.

 

Not at all. I'm a roamer. Pointing out that's it's not needed at all in blobs doesn't mean that I blob, I'll do it if the roaming is dead but that's it.

 

When it comes to roaming it has very little use and if it's used and the ranged person dies. It is VERY likely they would have died even if it wasn't used.

 

I'd like a skill that would allow me to get close to ranged users. I mean you're never really going to get on them. When you're melee it's hard. When you're melee necrosis with limited range. No blocks. No reflects. Rubbish mobility, slow teleports and such it's even harder.

 

If you die in a Zerg, you died likely due to the insane AoE which makes reflections and such useless anyway. Zerging means very little. Stay ranged. Spam ranged and spam. AoE. That's it.

[Dadnir.5038]

Then use _spectral armor_, pop your shroud and it allow you the exact same thing that you want for roaming. I don't want to be mean but all of this feel like you want a second _spectral armor_.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> Then use _spectral armor_, pop your shroud and it allow you the exact same thing that you want for roaming. I don't want to be mean but all of this feel like you want a second _spectral armor_.

 

Yeah that will NEVER work. Why? Because Scourge doesnt have a Shroud to burn through health trying to get to someone. Though to be fair, that should NOT be how its done to GET to someone. Even if you have Shroud. You are still taking the damage, the damage then stops you using your class mechanic because it will melt before you even get to the target.

 

Spectral Armour isnt even that good anyway. Especially as Scourge, the 33% less damage is kinda meaningless when you will be taking HUGE burst from 1,200 - 1,500 range away. The duration is nice but with the MANY knockbacks and such everyone else has it kinda makes it a little less worthwhile. Because the issue is getting INTO that melee range. Hell, my Soulbeast isnt even full Zerk and can do 11k+ with just one use of Rapid Fire. I can do 4-5k+ Crit hit auto attacks as well. Then i have stealth and mobility should the unlikely happen and the Necro get into melee range.

 

[Ceit.7619]

> @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> > @Ceit.7619 said:

>

> > These are all the utility skills for projectile defense outside of the ventari skill which I won't cover for obvious reasons. Comparing all 5 of these skills, their usefulness is pretty much on par with each other.

> you kinda failed the moment you started comparing projectile reflection to projectile block. CPC will always be worse than Feedback/Wall of Reflection/Whirling Defense and anything else that reflects.

>

 

I only brought the reflection skills into it because the OP kept referencing them. I also stated in the post that my observations and feelings of the skill is from a PVE and SPVP standpoint and NOT a WVW one. Is reflection better than destruction? Of course it is, but the discussion was simply about defensive properties. What CPC loses in the ability to reflect projectiles, it gains in having more situational use and added melee hate (between weakness and poison) along with having an impressive uptime. If the OP just wants CPC to become a reflection, then that's silly and the entire conversation is pointless.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @Ceit.7619 said:

> I only brought the reflection skills into it because the OP kept referencing them. I also stated in the post that my observations and feelings of the skill is from a PVE and SPVP standpoint and NOT a WVW one. Is reflection better than destruction? Of course it is, but the discussion was simply about defensive properties. What CPC loses in the ability to reflect projectiles, it gains in having more situational use and added melee hate (between weakness and poison) along with having an impressive uptime. If the OP just wants CPC to become a reflection, then that's silly and the entire conversation is pointless.

 

I suggest you read what i put. Not a single time have i EVER tried to say that CPC should be a reflect. Not once. So rather than just jumping to assumptions based on nothing, maybe read what people have put first. Even in the idea in the first post of what i'd change the skill to, it doesnt say DESTROY projectiles once it says it TWICE.

 

So, anyway, now that is out of the way. Back to topic. While it might be semi decent in groups. As its better to have something than nothing. Any group would take the likes of Feedback and such first, the conditions provided by CPC arent that hugely important given the huge array of condition remove, conversion as well as Resistance.

 

Making it to a personal shield/field that follows you would be more useful in a solo situation. Would it suddenly make Necro not wanted in groups? Would zergs and blobs miss it? No. It would affect small team fights granted. But seeing as how theres plenty of projectile reflections and destruction in the game. Losing this one wouldnt do much at all to group fights. It would improve solo and roaming. Any ranged player that dies because of CPC was always going to die.

 

Its easily counted, easily moved out from and given that most classes could be chilled and still have better mobility than us means that even should the necro take no damage, get through the 1,200 range that the ability has (900 range + 240 radius) the person you're fighting will have either just said, meh a few minor conditions. Easily removed. Gone through the field. Cleansed said conditions. Knocked the Necro back and gone Pow Pow.

 

 

[Ceit.7619]

 

>

> I suggest you read what i put. Not a single time have i EVER tried to say that CPC should be a reflect. Not once. So rather than just jumping to assumptions based on nothing, maybe read what people have put first. Even in the idea in the first post of what i'd change the skill to, it doesnt say DESTROY projectiles once it says it TWICE.

>

> So, anyway, now that is out of the way. Back to topic. While it might be semi decent in groups. As its better to have something than nothing. Any group would take the likes of Feedback and such first, the conditions provided by CPC arent that hugely important given the huge array of condition remove, conversion as well as Resistance.

>

> Making it to a personal shield/field that follows you would be more useful in a solo situation. Would it suddenly make Necro not wanted in groups? Would zergs and blobs miss it? No. It would affect small team fights granted. But seeing as how theres plenty of projectile reflections and destruction in the game. Losing this one wouldnt do much at all to group fights. It would improve solo and roaming. Any ranged player that dies because of CPC was always going to die.

>

> Its easily counted, easily moved out from and given that most classes could be chilled and still have better mobility than us means that even should the necro take no damage, get through the 1,200 range that the ability has (900 range + 240 radius) the person you're fighting will have either just said, meh a few minor conditions. Easily removed. Gone through the field. Cleansed said conditions. Knocked the Necro back and gone Pow Pow.

>

>

 

-.- I didn't say that you were making that argument, and in fact I said it would be silly to suggest. I only stated I used it in comparisons because you kept bringing them up. A lot of your 'counters' would apply to feedback even more easily than it would to CPC. Not to mention that the conditions on CPC might be thought of as 'minor', even if they are cleansed they will keep reapplying for the duration of the skill. If they move out of it, they still don't have ranged options until it's over. If they stay in it, they are weakened and thus have a significantly reduced melee damage rate, and a reduced ability to heal. Combine this with a boon strip which necro has tons of, and your version of 'counterplay' can be quite easily counterplayed. Just because you view the skill as completely worthless doesn't mean it is, it just doesn't fit into your play style. It has it's uses, and I would take the current iteration over your suggestion in a heartbeat.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @Ceit.7619 said:

> -.- I didn't say that you were making that argument, and in fact I said it would be silly to suggest. I only stated I used it in comparisons because you kept bringing them up. A lot of your 'counters' would apply to feedback even more easily than it would to CPC. Not to mention that the conditions on CPC might be thought of as 'minor', even if they are cleansed they will keep reapplying for the duration of the skill. If they move out of it, they still don't have ranged options until it's over. If they stay in it, they are weakened and thus have a significantly reduced melee damage rate, and a reduced ability to heal. Combine this with a boon strip which necro has tons of, and your version of 'counterplay' can be quite easily counterplayed. Just because you view the skill as completely worthless doesn't mean it is, it just doesn't fit into your play style. It has it's uses, and I would take the current iteration over your suggestion in a heartbeat.

 

Well, given they could just walk through it, cleanse with ease and then go back to melting you from range, there is also how many skills that pretty much make the person immune to conditions for a certain amount of time? I mean my Soul Beast can remove like 14 conditions, with 2 removed per a second over 6 seconds which will also HEAL me.

 

The Weakness also means nothing for Ranged condition builds. So there the weakness is kinda pointless and given that a HUGE chunk of roamers are condition based. It wouldnt do much to harm them.

 

"quite easily countered" hardly. Scepter is pretty much required. The of it is like linked to MELEE of the Scourge, You have a few 15-20 second cool down skills but too long a cool down to really be considered "easy" For a Scourge you really have to be Melee to get the best of it and my point already being you will be half dead (if you're lucky) before you will even reach melee distance. CPC isn't going to do much Either they walk through and continue to melt face or you walk towards them while they wait for it end or walk backwards and once its ended. Boom. Back to range blasting. Lets not forget, they could just go around it.

 

In group/Zerg fights: Pretty much all others are better, it having a few seconds longer duration, minor conditions that will EASILY be removed/converted by the mass zerg with resistance and AoE Condi removals and converts. On top of the better options that have better range that are also happen to be reflects.

 

Small group: Better than nothing i guess? Situational most of the time.

 

S/TPvP: God knows. Cant stand that mode

 

WvW Roaming: Waste of time. Just flat out bad. If you manage to beat a player using this skill. You would have beaten them 99% of the time without using the skill.

 

PvE: Does it matter? most of the content requires no skill. No build. Nothing. Outside of Raids and highend Factals and even then, if they needed projectile hate. Surely they would rather reflections.

 

 

[intox.6347]

> @Sarrs.4831 said:

 

> It sounds like you're misusing the skill.

>

> Do not plant the CPC on the enemy. Plant it on yourself and use your Consume Conditions as soon as you come under pressure to heal off the enemy burst so that you can then deliver your own with impunity using Scepter or Axe.

>

> It is 100% a defensive skill and you should absolutely not use it to try to deal damage. Use it to delete projectiles and maybe give yourself a Weakness to send; any poison or weakness that you apply directly through the cloud is gravy.

>

I sometimes pick it in group play when it comes to chokepoints ... bridges, tunnels.

But i dont get your usage.... you mean some ranged hitting you, so you put cpc under your feet and then stand in it . But necro have really low range, so for sure you just stand there, doing nothing. Most of my play against ranged looks like they try to stay at full range, once i stop on some place... its bonus for them :D

[Ceit.7619]

Let's just run by these point by point.

 

> Well, given they could just walk through it, cleanse with ease and then go back to melting you from range, there is also how many skills that pretty much make the person immune to conditions for a certain amount of time? I mean my Soul Beast can remove like 14 conditions, with 2 removed per a second over 6 seconds which will also HEAL me.

 

This is only relevant if you are placing it on the target and not on yourself. This is also true for literally every other block or reflection skill outside of Sanctuary which blocks movement on a much higher CD. Walk through a feedback, they don't even need a cleanse to start melting you again from range. At least CPC makes them use a cleanse, and while there are certain classes that have a lot of condi-cleansing, not all of them do. Pointing out a few classes can counter a skill by using their own skills does not invalidate CPC as a skill, just says it has a counter in some cases, which it SHOULD. No skill should give everything.

 

> The Weakness also means nothing for Ranged condition builds. So there the weakness is kinda pointless and given that a HUGE chunk of roamers are condition based. It wouldnt do much to harm them.

 

So because Weakness isn't useful against one type of build, it's pointless entirely? From the start I said I don't wvw so none of my opinions are based around it. The poison application still reduces healing from them while ticking a bit of damage, and if they decide to blow cleanses, than that is less cleansing for your own condi damage skills.

 

> "quite easily countered" hardly. Scepter is pretty much required. The of it is like linked to MELEE of the Scourge, You have a few 15-20 second cool down skills but too long a cool down to really be considered "easy" For a Scourge you really have to be Melee to get the best of it and my point already being you will be half dead (if you're lucky) before you will even reach melee distance. CPC isn't going to do much Either they walk through and continue to melt face or you walk towards them while they wait for it end or walk backwards and once its ended. Boom. Back to range blasting. Lets not forget, they could just go around it.

 

Scourge has access to ranged abilities, I don't really understand your points here. They can drop CPC as a shield, use shade skills from a range to help with damage and even control given how you can fear, boon strip almost instantly upon placing a shade. You keep looking at CPC in a vacuum as if this one skill should be able to carry an entire fight and using it depends on how you play.

 

> In group/Zerg fights: Pretty much all others are better, it having a few seconds longer duration, minor conditions that will EASILY be removed/converted by the mass zerg with resistance and AoE Condi removals and converts. On top of the better options that have better range that are also happen to be reflects.

 

I don't Wvw, so I don't really care on this point. Zerg fighting is zerg fighting, your lone necro is never going to have a skill that can change the tide of battle all alone. Some projectile hate in the class is better than nothing, if you have enough guardians and mesmers to bring reflects, you don't need CPC in the current iteration, or your proposed change.

 

> Small group: Better than nothing i guess? Situational most of the time.

 

Can be quite useful if you need the destruction, but you're still talking wvw and a lot of my opinions on it stem more from spvp, which ironically *you* can't stand and thus might have a lot to do with our differing opinions on the skill.

 

> S/TPvP: God knows. Cant stand that mode

 

See above.

 

> WvW Roaming: Waste of time. Just flat out bad. If you manage to beat a player using this skill. You would have beaten them 99% of the time without using the skill.

 

Your stance on this is obviously very biased by your own view of how a necro should be played, and not so much on a limitation on the skill itself. It has uses, and it has counters. A projectile destruction that follows you around would be too powerful, nobody has such a thing and likely for good reason.

 

> PvE: Does it matter? most of the content requires no skill. No build. Nothing. Outside of Raids and highend Factals and even then, if they needed projectile hate. Surely they would rather reflections.

 

PvE it generally is only going to be used sporadically when needed, but it does make it's way onto necro bars with some frequency.