An open letter to all the Meta-obsessive players

[Wandering Mist.2973]

Just before I start, I might as well give a little background on myself. I started playing online games back in early 2007 with the original guildwars, which I played semi-competitively. From there I moved onto WoW where I did progression raiding through TBC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Since then I've most been playing League of Legends (reaching the top 10% of players in Europe) before finally giving it up and moving to GW2. I say this only to give you an idea of where I am coming from with my thoughts. Now onto the topic at hand. When I first started playing GW2 I was amazed at the amount of diversity and options available. There seemed to be a playstyle to suit everyone which felt amazing. Of course I got to level 80 only to be told "you must play the meta, or else" with the meta being a very very few select builds that are accepted for each game type. Now I know there are many players who don't follow the meta, but there seem to be more meta-obsessives in this community than in any other gaming community I've known(which is strange considering how little time you've had dps meters and raids available compared to other mmorpgs). I'm not going to lie, it is very frustrating to go into a game and be told to play a certain way no matter what. Here's a little example of what I mean:

 

"If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps"

"if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono"

"Don't take a healing Elementalist, use a Druid instead"

 

And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you, but telling someone to play a style they don't like just because it's the "meta" is very petty and obnoxious in my opinion. The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

 

So the question is, why have the meta at all? Well if you want to play at the very top of the standings then I agree the meta is the way to go, but this might only apply to perhaps 1-2% of the total playerbase. Is the meta still useful to the other 98%? Yes, but only as a guide. The meta gives you an insight into the thought process of the top players, and it can help new players put their foot in the door without feeling overwhelmed. It can give you a starting point from which to develop your own playstyle from. The meta therefore should be used as a guide to help you find the path, not be the be-all and end-all of the game. No average player should feel forced into playing the meta, especially if the builds in question are uncomfortable for them to play. At the end of the day this is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it, there is no point in playing at all.

 

So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

EDIT: Getting some backlash for my original title, so I've changed it. Now we can actually discuss the topic at hand without getting offended too much.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

In fractals power DH is much better choice.

[Zacchary.6183]

Anet could get opinions from those who regularly use non-meta builds to help provide meaningful and impactful buffs to the rest of the professions, thus increasing build diversity.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> Anet could get opinions from those who regularly use non-meta builds to help provide meaningful and impactful buffs to the rest of the professions, thus increasing build diversity.

 

Meh, Anet have always done their own thing when it came to class balancing. I remember back in GW1 they would rebalance the PvP every 2-3 weeks, regardless of what the community wanted at the time.

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

One can be highly effective without being "Optimal". I've had an SK in EQ2 from launch till now, 12 years or so, and her profession has gone from "omg reroll" to "plz nerf OP SK tanks plz" and every variation between. Still, in all that time she has not varied from being, at base, a highly effective MT.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.

 

yeah but you cant really make autogrouping here, as when you need healer, or buffer or tank in some encounters, you cant really tell how to code it; in games like WoW roles are tied to specs, in GW2 roles are tied to metabattle

[Wandering Mist.2973]

 

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.

>

> yeah but you cant really make autogrouping here, as when you need healer, or buffer or tank in some encounters, you cant really tell how to code it; in games like WoW roles are tied to specs, in GW2 roles are tied to metabattle

 

I agree with you, autogrouping in a game like GW2 wouldn't work, and quite frankly we shouldn't need such a function (hell, even WoW doesn't need that function). All we need is for people to be less stubborn about always playing to the meta in situations where you don't need to have the completely optimal set-up.

[zombyturtle.5980]

* Theres no need to call people sheep thats insulting and makes you just as bad as people who insult you.

* Noone should force you to play meta. Thats wrong and its totally your choice whether you do or dont.

* Everyone has a right to play in the group they choose, and that includes asking for only meta comps, you are free to avoid these groups if you dont like them.

* If you join a meta group and dont play meta, you are the jerk and they have a right to kick you. Similarly if you make a non meta group and a meta person joins and starts criticising your group, they are the jerk and you have the right to kick them.

* Just because you completed the fractal doesnt mean it was a successful run for someone else in the group. Their success could depend on the fractal being a very fast and smooth run and simply finishing it will not be satisfying.

 

Meta 'sheep' and non meta players can both play fine together in gw2 as long as they both respect each others LFG. Theres no need to force each other to change.

Also this game is very different to LOL and build is much more important than personal skill tbh once you understand the basics.

[Greener.6204]

A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> This is because there is no auto group feature in gw2, this is why groups are so elitist, if they added auto grouping nobody would care and the dungeons would still get completed.

 

Elder Scrolls Online has an auto group feature and if anything they're even more elitist about only allowing certain builds. (Which is just as arbitrary as in GW2.) It just adds the added complication that people will queue up as a tank or healer when they can't actually tank or heal just because they know you can get into a group faster that way. Then they'll yell at the group for wanting an actual tank or healer.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> * Theres no need to call people sheep thats insulting and makes you just as bad as people who insult you.

> * Noone should force you to play meta. Thats wrong and its totally your choice whether you do or dont.

> * Everyone has a right to play in the group they choose, and that includes asking for only meta comps, you are free to avoid these groups if you dont like them.

> * If you join a meta group and dont play meta, you are the jerk and they have a right to kick you. Similarly if you make a non meta group and a meta person joins and starts criticising your group, they are the jerk and you have the right to kick them.

> * Just because you completed the fractal doesnt mean it was a successful run for someone else in the group. Their success could depend on the fractal being a very fast and smooth run and simply finishing it will not be satisfying.

>

> Meta 'sheep' and non meta players can both play fine together in gw2 as long as they both respect each others LFG. Theres no need to force each other to change.

> Also this game is very different to LOL and build is much more important than personal skill tbh once you understand the basics.

 

I'm sorry if you feel offended by the term "sheep" but honestly that is how I see them, especially since most of the people who follow the meta don't even know the reasoning behind the builds they use. They use them because they have been told those are the best builds, without actually testing them out themselves. You ask your average meta sheep why they use the build they do and their immediate reply is "because it's the meta". Wow, no shit Sherlock, but why is it the meta? Most of the time they have no answer to this and just repeat the same "it's better than everything else" line over and over. Also from my experience it's mostly the meta players who belittle the non-meta players, not the other way around. Finally, what I wrote in the OP mostly applies to PUGs and LFG. What you choose to do in your own select group or guild is no concern to me, but when you are playing with a group of strangers, chances are not only are the meta builds unnecessary, but worthless because you won't have the teamwork required to pull them off.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > * Theres no need to call people sheep thats insulting and makes you just as bad as people who insult you.

> > * Noone should force you to play meta. Thats wrong and its totally your choice whether you do or dont.

> > * Everyone has a right to play in the group they choose, and that includes asking for only meta comps, you are free to avoid these groups if you dont like them.

> > * If you join a meta group and dont play meta, you are the jerk and they have a right to kick you. Similarly if you make a non meta group and a meta person joins and starts criticising your group, they are the jerk and you have the right to kick them.

> > * Just because you completed the fractal doesnt mean it was a successful run for someone else in the group. Their success could depend on the fractal being a very fast and smooth run and simply finishing it will not be satisfying.

> >

> > Meta 'sheep' and non meta players can both play fine together in gw2 as long as they both respect each others LFG. Theres no need to force each other to change.

> > Also this game is very different to LOL and build is much more important than personal skill tbh once you understand the basics.

>

> I'm sorry if you feel offended by the term "sheep" but honestly that is how I see them, especially since most of the people who follow the meta don't even know the reasoning behind the builds they use. They use them because they have been told those are the best builds, without actually testing them out themselves. You ask your average meta sheep why they use the build they do and their immediate reply is "because it's the meta". Wow, no kitten Sherlock, but why is it the meta? Most of the time they have no answer to this and just repeat the same "it's better than everything else" line over and over. Also from my experience it's mostly the meta players who belittle the non-meta players, not the other way around. Finally, what I wrote in the OP mostly applies to PUGs and LFG. What you choose to do in your own select group or guild is no concern to me, but when you are playing with a group of strangers, chances are not only are the meta builds unnecessary, but worthless because you won't have the teamwork required to pull them off.

 

I have to disagree with most of what you say here sorry. I think most people who play meta are aware builds are generally the best because they have the highest DPS output or provide the most offensive boons since PVE meta is all about damage. (with the exception being druid in raids). This is why they use DPS meters to judge performance. Obviously you get ignorant people but ive certainly found them to be in the minority.

 

Meta people will belittle non meta players and non meta players will constantly make forums posts telling meta players to change the way they play and enjoy the game, often insulting them too. They can be as bad as each other.

 

In LFG most meta builds will ask for other meta players to ensure they have the teamwork needed for the style of run they want. (fast). If the LFG requirements are followed ive found the runs are usually successful. Most fractal builds dont require that much teamwork to begin with, just sufficient DPS output to kill the boss before it kills you. Thats why these builds are only worthless if a non meta player joins. Hence why theres no problem if both meta and non meta players respect each others LFG.

[Rukia.9860]

Play whatever you want just don't expect everyone to be okay with it.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

A well-written post, OP.

 

Here's my thoughts. As much as I hate elitism and meta-builds that are set in stone, I can understand that Guild Wars 2 is just that kind of a game. Mostly being PvE, people tend to reach for the fastest and most efficient runs with minimum time required, and that's where meta happens. Simply completing the encounter is not enough for them, but they want to maximize their gains in the least time possible; having mastered the GW2 end-game, waiting on less-effective players can get frustrating. I get that.

 

The same goes for PvP. There's not much wiggle room with the professions on higher levels of PvP; some builds simply beat other builds, unless there's a massive difference in the skill levels of the players. And because GW2 professions work like that, there can't be a player who could beat anyone with any build. That's why meta exists in PvP team compositions as well; there's no chance of surviving if you pick anything less than the meta.

 

However; people seem quite ignorant to the fact that this is actually NOT the majority of Guild Wars 2 playerbase. Yes, you see lots of rant about the meta elitism, but you also see lots of posts telling a completely different story. I've seen many players saying how they had fun clearing X content with a bunch of off-meta people. Yes, it took time, but eventually it got done, and it was FUN. For example, if you create a "no requirements group" in the LFG for a raid, it will fill up faster than any strict meta-group. You might or might not clear the content, but at least you'll have like-minded people doing it with you. And if you manage to pull through, the sense of accomplishment will be worth your time.

 

Also, in the lower PvP tiers you see a whole lot of different ranging builds. Of course, skill is needed there to beat more statistically effective opponents, but it's fun, unexpected and might also raise your own skillcap by outsmarting those who do more damage than you.

 

So, in a nutshell, the best players need the meta-builds in order to be effective and as efficient as possible, and sadly many people see it as a requirement rather than a guideline. So they strive for perfection from the start, rather than having fun and trying different things while getting there. However, there are lots of like-minded players who like to take on the challenge with all kinds of builds; you just need to let your voice be heard and you will find them.

[Tomahawk.7361]

As a wvw player there has always been .... ‘that profession’ that is ridiculously overtuned for 3-4 months. Then they just end up wrecking it and it’s a broken shell of it’s former self a lot longer. I wish classes and builds weren’t balanced in such exaggeration. Then you might still see old classic builds like rifle engi, dual dagger eli, dual sword rev, staff daredevil, and many more than sit in the boneyard of builds gone by.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

 

I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> > Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

>

> I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

 

You are assuming that a player running an offmeta build will put in this amount of effort while players who simply copy paste do not. That's pure speculation, it might happen, it might not happen and it's completely out of any ones control to plan or work with besides getting to know the other player personally.

 

 

**It's quite simple really, let's assume 2 players of exactly the same skill that being absolute 0.**

 

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and has 0 clue of how the build works.

 

Player B runs a non meta build which he made himself and has 0 clue of how the build works.

 

Logic dictates that Player A will outperform player B.

 

 

**Now let's take this same situation and take 2 players who know absolutely everything about the game.**

 

Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and fully understands.

 

Player B runs a non meta build which he created himself and fully understands.

 

Again, logic dictates that player A will outperform player B simply because his meta build is the most efficient build for the content.

 

Finally, you can play what ever you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. At the same time, you can't force any one else to play with you. It's the freedom of choice on both sides.

[Ben K.6238]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta.

 

That's true for sPvP, but not so much for raids.

 

When you're playing against other players, you're not gated by DPS. When you're playing raids you are. That's why your experience with LoL isn't so relevant to raiding in GW2 - if you aren't playing a build that's optimized to play its role to its fullest effect, then other players have to make up a shortfall that would otherwise be handled by you, no matter how good you are.

 

 

Edit:

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> I'm sorry if you feel offended by the term "sheep" but honestly that is how I see them, especially since most of the people who follow the meta don't even know the reasoning behind the builds they use.

 

That doesn't really help. For example, if you said "I'm sorry if you feel offended by the term [insert racist slur here] but honestly that is how I see them", it would still be offensive and unhelpful. "Sheep" is a pejorative, not a descriptive word that you need to convey your point of view; you could easily use something else.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Hevoskuuri.3891 said:

> A well-written post, OP.

>

> Here's my thoughts. As much as I hate elitism and meta-builds that are set in stone, I can understand that Guild Wars 2 is just that kind of a game. Mostly being PvE, people tend to reach for the fastest and most efficient runs with minimum time required, and that's where meta happens. Simply completing the encounter is not enough for them, but they want to maximize their gains in the least time possible; having mastered the GW2 end-game, waiting on less-effective players can get frustrating. I get that.

>

> **The same goes for PvP. There's not much wiggle room with the professions on higher levels of PvP; some builds simply beat other builds, unless there's a massive difference in the skill levels of the players. And because GW2 professions work like that, there can't be a player who could beat anyone with any build. That's why meta exists in PvP team compositions as well; there's no chance of surviving if you pick anything less than the meta.**

>

> However; people seem quite ignorant to the fact that this is actually NOT the majority of Guild Wars 2 playerbase. Yes, you see lots of rant about the meta elitism, but you also see lots of posts telling a completely different story. I've seen many players saying how they had fun clearing X content with a bunch of off-meta people. Yes, it took time, but eventually it got done, and it was FUN. For example, if you create a "no requirements group" in the LFG for a raid, it will fill up faster than any strict meta-group. You might or might not clear the content, but at least you'll have like-minded people doing it with you. And if you manage to pull through, the sense of accomplishment will be worth your time.

>

> Also, in the lower PvP tiers you see a whole lot of different ranging builds. Of course, skill is needed there to beat more statistically effective opponents, but it's fun, unexpected and might also raise your own skillcap by outsmarting those who do more damage than you.

>

> So, in a nutshell, the best players need the meta-builds in order to be effective and as efficient as possible, and sadly many people see it as a requirement rather than a guideline. So they strive for perfection from the start, rather than having fun and trying different things while getting there. However, there are lots of like-minded players who like to take on the challenge with all kinds of builds; you just need to let your voice be heard and you will find them.

 

I just want to hone in on the bold part for now. One of the things I have learned from playing LoL is that the skill level of players is constantly evolving, and this can drastically affect the meta. There will be times when a certain build will seem unbeatable until someone finds a new way of using the game mechanics, combined with a high enough skill level to beat it. We have seen examples of this in GW2. About a year ago PvPers discovered that you can delay the second function of an ability by jumping immediately after activating the skill. So for example, Mesmer's Shield 4 ability is a dual effect skill. You channel a block, and then at the end of the channel you spawn a clone. However, if you jump right as the blocking channel finishes, you delay the spawning of the clone. This small timing can completely mess with your opponent's dodging and allow the skill the hit. This technique changed a lot of things and allowed Mesmer players to win duels against classes that previously they couldn't beat. And so you get a switch in the meta not because of some balance patch, but because the players got better at the game.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> > Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

>

> I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

 

The odds are against you.

If builds are part of meta, there's always a reason.

 

> Could the one who use a meta build be not that efficient?

 

Ofc, but guess what if that one decided to used a random build he decided to try.

The question is obviously rhetorical.

 

Also, you could probably go with a different build, but why should you not chose insteadad a low risk high reward build?

And why the team who doesn't know you should chose you since you want to use a random build?

 

PS: this will also consider the possibility that the player does not have any idea how to play the build, but even so the problem is the player itself ( it's full of videos, guides and the possibility to ask for tips in game and on the forum ), and guess what, he would be definitely kicked from the raid.

 

But since you find a player you don't know, you are going to invite the one with the right class, build and equipment.

There's no reasons for a team to chose the other ( and i am talking about being efficient ).

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> > > Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

> >

> > I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

>

> You are assuming that a player running an offmeta build will put in this amount of effort while players who simply copy paste do not. That's pure speculation, it might happen, it might not happen and it's completely out of any ones control to plan or work with besides getting to know the other player personally.

>

>

> **It's quite simple really, let's assume 2 players of exactly the same skill that being absolute 0.**

>

> Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and has 0 clue of how the build works.

>

> Player B runs a non meta build which he made himself and has 0 clue of how the build works.

>

> Logic dictates that Player A will outperform player B.

>

>

> **Now let's take this same situation and take 2 players who know absolutely everything about the game.**

>

> Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and fully understands.

>

> Player B runs a non meta build which he created himself and fully understands.

>

> Again, logic dictates that player A will outperform player B simply because his meta build is the most efficient build for the content.

>

> Finally, you can play what ever you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. At the same time, you can't force any one else to play with you. It's the freedom of choice on both sides.

 

I disagree. Unless you have a player who literally just randomly clicks traits without ever reading what they do, the non-meta player will probably spend a lot more time actually reading and researching what every trait and skill does in game, so your first scenario is quite frankly very unrealistic.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > @Greener.6204 said:

> > > A quick note about your title: If you want people to respect your words enough to read them, do not start by disrespecting said readers.

> >

> > Thanks for your input......Now are you going to contribute anything of worth to this thread at all or not?

>

> You do realize the attitude you are bringing to your very own thread is exactly the attitude you are complaining about right?

>

> In short, being disrespectful of others.

 

Not really. Someone comes into my thread purely to tell me off for using the term "meta-sheep" and contribute nothing to the actual conversation (they didn't even read my actual post at all) and I'm expected to welcome them with open arms? Sorry, but that's not how it works at all.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> > > > Players pre-select for meta builds in random grouping because there is no way to pre-select for skill or knowledge of encounter mechanics. In a random grouping situation where players want to ensure a successful run, they will use the criteria that they have access to. The assumption is that the player who is using a meta build has at least made some effort to see what's wanted build-wise, and might also have made an effort to learn mechanics.

> > >

> > > I can see your point here, however this mentality can also work against you. Any idiot can copy a meta build from the internet, but can they play it effectively? You don't need to have understood the mechanics in order to copy and paste the traits and blindly follow a rotation that someone else has designed. On the flip side, in order to make an off-meta build work you have to do a lot of research into the game mechanics and fully understand the rotation you are going to do in order to maximise your effectiveness with that build. In short, it is a lot harder to be effective with a non-meta build than a meta one, and those that manage it (in my opinion) show more skill and game knowledge than the people who do well by copying the meta.

> >

> > You are assuming that a player running an offmeta build will put in this amount of effort while players who simply copy paste do not. That's pure speculation, it might happen, it might not happen and it's completely out of any ones control to plan or work with besides getting to know the other player personally.

> >

> >

> > **It's quite simple really, let's assume 2 players of exactly the same skill that being absolute 0.**

> >

> > Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and has 0 clue of how the build works.

> >

> > Player B runs a non meta build which he made himself and has 0 clue of how the build works.

> >

> > Logic dictates that Player A will outperform player B.

> >

> >

> > **Now let's take this same situation and take 2 players who know absolutely everything about the game.**

> >

> > Player A runs a meta build which he copy pasted and fully understands.

> >

> > Player B runs a non meta build which he created himself and fully understands.

> >

> > Again, logic dictates that player A will outperform player B simply because his meta build is the most efficient build for the content.

> >

> > Finally, you can play what ever you want. No one is forcing you to play anything. At the same time, you can't force any one else to play with you. It's the freedom of choice on both sides.

>

> I disagree. Unless you have a player who literally just randomly clicks traits without ever reading what they do, the non-meta player will probably spend a lot more time actually reading and researching what every trait and skill does in game, so your first scenario is quite frankly very unrealistic.

 

And I'm saying this is a purely subjective unprovable might be scenario. Purely subjective and in no way possible to be proven.

 

I could just as well say:"Well I believe that people who start using meta builds and even put the effort in to find sites and guides which provide them are invested enough to understand their class well enough to outperform someone who makes his own build. Why? Because the first thing someone does who is inexperienced with the game is not run off to metabattle or quantify looking for meta builds but get to know his class."

 

And I would be just as hard pressed proving my statement as you are yours.