An open letter to all the Meta-obsessive players

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @ReaverKane.7598 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > Maybe I have just been unlucky then, who knows. Regardless elitism is a problem that appears in most online multiplayer games, and it's up to the community to sort it out, not the devs. You can't solve the problem unless you start talking about it first.

>

> You said it yourself, it happens in every game, some people want to play optimally, it's not your place to tell them they can't and force your view of how build diversity works on them.

> Just find a different party that doesn't have those views. These will be the majority. Now if you want to play with "elitist" players that want to do speed runs, or use tactics and mechanics that require a meta build, then don't cry that they **want** a meta build.

> I've played GW2 since launch, and i've barely ever played using strict meta builds. Some times i'd be equally effective, others not so much, but when i KNEW my build was subpar, i wouldn't force it upon others.

> My power DragonHunter is NOT a Meta build (as in i don't use Berzerker gear - which is useless because you have 100% crit rate with 2 assassin's trinkets), and i've never seen other DHs (or power builds in general) outdps me, and because i use Valkyrie's instead of Berzerker, which substitutes precision with Vitality, i have a bit more survivability.

> And yet, if a guy is going into a party and can barely do more dps than a freaking healing druid or a minstrel's chrono... Then maybe, just maybe, he's being carried, and not being a useful member of the party, and if you're happy with that, then the problem isn't the Elitists it's that condescension.

> If a person wants to slack, ok, its their thing, they want to enjoy doing things a different way, but don't ask others to carry their weight for them. I'm not saying you're like that, just saying, that, sure playing off-meta isn't a bad thing, actually it's a GREAT thing, because, you know the guys that "decide" what's meta, might sometimes be missing out on a detail that you thought up. I mean i was playing condi ranger back when everyone was using berzerker gear and berzerker gear only. Soloing i was a god, i was farming champions before champions where farmed (as in they gave the same rewards as normal mobs, but i did it for the fun), but in groups i got fed up with thieves and warriors that had 0 condi damage getting all the condi stacks because first hit, and my damage was nill.. So when i made my first ascended set for him i made it assassin's with long bow... Guess what happened a few months later? Yep, they changed how condis work, and nowadays most dps builds on Ranger are based around condis.

>

 

I think one of the problems we have to address in this is the size of the playerbase. It's all very well saying "find a different group to play with" but to do that there need to be players in the first place. WoW, even at it's lowest point has over 4 million subscribers, and is currently sitting at around 10 million if you believe the rumours. With that many active players you will always be able to find like-minded people to group with. That is not the case with GW2 and so compromises need to be made in the community. I'm not against people who want to speed run or min-max their builds to the most optimal, but it seems that people are insisting on the meta regardless of the content they are doing. There was 1 particular occasion where I joined a group who had previously said that they have no interest in speed running fractals and being "hardcore" players, and yet insisted that I play to the meta in order to group with them. That just didn't make any sense to me at all.

[Lexi.1398]

There's multiple sides to this really-

Firstly, you need meta for speedruns, but i imagine that's an accepted fact so i don't care about arguing on that one.

 

Secondly, meta, off-meta but viable & useful (may not get the best dps/healing, but still does a pretty darn good job of it), and off-meta but bad builds are 3 differnet things.

While I personally don't mind off meta, non meta builds should come under the second category (viable & useful) for high level content- consider that one time I spent 4 hours doing a dungeon (granted a lot of time was spent afk, actual dungeon time was more like 2 hours) because this gorup was under-manned, under-geared and even those of us who had lv80 exotics had awful builds (im guilty because i had full soldiers gear back then, hahahaha). and dungeons are the easiest thing to do. most people don't want to spend silly amounts of time doing stuff to account for people with straight up bad builds, i'm not a fan of speed runs but i'm also not a fan of spending 40 minutes in a single fractal because of awful builds.

 

Now, off-meta but is viable & useful, that's fine IMO. Consider necromancers, which have like no meta pve currently(?)- actually necromancers are still perfectly viable for end game PvE, just because (everyone got angry at scourge nerfs- i mean COUGH) they may not do the absolute best doesn't mean they don't do a pretty high dps. Now anyone who gets angry at non-speedrun off meta builds that are viable and do actually pretty good, those people are elitists i dislike, especially as some meta is very difficult to learn (ele weaver in particular) and pull off and some of the non-meta builds which are easier to use especially are, for some of us, the only viable build (consider: i'm sick a lot of the time + lag + bad laptop so i don't really have the capability to pull off anything fancy/extreme), and being as they do almost as much damage as meta you don't lose much time in raids/cm fractals.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

>

> I think one of the problems we have to address in this is the size of the playerbase. It's all very well saying "find a different group to play with" but to do that there need to be players in the first place. WoW, even at it's lowest point has over 4 million subscribers, and is currently sitting at around 10 million if you believe the rumours. With that many active players you will always be able to find like-minded people to group with. That is not the case with GW2 and so compromises need to be made in the community. I'm not against people who want to speed run or min-max their builds to the most optimal, but it seems that people are insisting on the meta regardless of the content they are doing. There was 1 particular occasion where I joined a group who had previously said that they have no interest in speed running fractals and being "hardcore" players, and yet insisted that I play to the meta in order to group with them. That just didn't make any sense to me at all.

1) If you believe the "rumours" as in the latest numbers from Arena Net, there's 11 million players in GW2 (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/)

2) Are you kidding me? You make it sound like the servers are empty... There's always a ton of LFG parties, and the vast majority don't ask for meta builds. If you're having trouble finding a party... Well i can't tell you what it is, but you have a problem somewhere man.

3) About that example... If everyone else is wrong, maybe they're not the ones that are wrong?

 

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Lexi.1398 said:

> There's multiple sides to this really-

> Firstly, you need meta for speedruns, but i imagine that's an accepted fact so i don't care about arguing on that one.

>

> Secondly, meta, off-meta but viable & useful (may not get the best dps/healing, but still does a pretty darn good job of it), and off-meta but bad builds are 3 differnet things.

> While I personally don't mind off meta, non meta builds should come under the second category (viable & useful) for high level content- consider that one time I spent 4 hours doing a dungeon (granted a lot of time was spent afk, actual dungeon time was more like 2 hours) because this gorup was under-manned, under-geared and even those of us who had lv80 exotics had awful builds (im guilty because i had full soldiers gear back then, hahahaha). and dungeons are the easiest thing to do. most people don't want to spend silly amounts of time doing stuff to account for people with straight up bad builds, i'm not a fan of speed runs but i'm also not a fan of spending 40 minutes in a single fractal because of awful builds.

>

> Now, off-meta but is viable & useful, that's fine IMO. Consider necromancers, which have like no meta pve currently(?)- actually necromancers are still perfectly viable for end game PvE, just because (everyone got angry at scourge nerfs- i mean COUGH) they may not do the absolute best doesn't mean they don't do a pretty high dps. Now anyone who gets angry at non-speedrun off meta builds that are viable and do actually pretty good, those people are elitists i dislike, especially as some meta is very difficult to learn (ele weaver in particular) and pull off and some of the non-meta builds which are easier to use especially are, for some of us, the only viable build (consider: i'm sick a lot of the time + lag + bad laptop so i don't really have the capability to pull off anything fancy/extreme), and being as they do almost as much damage as meta you don't lose much time in raids/cm fractals.

 

You said it a lot better than I did, so thanks for that. You also bring up a very good point. Often times the meta builds are very complex to pull off and although they do more dps than other builds, in order to do that dps they require a huge amount of practice and skill that some people just don't have. Not everyone can afford to spend 10 hours learning to optimally play a single build. So is it better to do a simple non-meta build and output 20k dps, than try to play an overly complex meta build and only put out 18k dps? Sometimes this can come down to hardware but other times there may be physical limitations at work here. A player who can only use 1 hand might struggle to use a complex meta build, and therefore is better off sticking to a non-meta viable build that they can use effectively.

[LONGA.1652]

Meta or not when you do high level stuff like Nightmare fractal, Shattered Observatory. Having class knowledge is a must.

You might be surprised that there still people who don't know their class. Doing it wrong by just camping ranged weapon coming in with open world build.

 

Meta build carrying those people unless they outnumbered you 4 to 1.

 

Its all about managing expectation which GW2 LFG doesn't let you check aside from buff tabs for food , utility (Also the obvious but not proven AP numbers)

[zoomborg.9462]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> Just before I start, I might as well give a little background on myself. I started playing online games back in early 2007 with the original guildwars, which I played semi-competitively. From there I moved onto WoW where I did progression raiding through TBC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Since then I've most been playing League of Legends (reaching the top 10% of players in Europe) before finally giving it up and moving to GW2. I say this only to give you an idea of where I am coming from with my thoughts. Now onto the topic at hand. When I first started playing GW2 I was amazed at the amount of diversity and options available. There seemed to be a playstyle to suit everyone which felt amazing. Of course I got to level 80 only to be told "you must play the meta, or else" with the meta being a very very few select builds that are accepted for each game type. Now I know there are many players who don't follow the meta, but there seem to be more meta-obsessives in this community than in any other gaming community I've known(which is strange considering how little time you've had dps meters and raids available compared to other mmorpgs). I'm not going to lie, it is very frustrating to go into a game and be told to play a certain way no matter what. Here's a little example of what I mean:

>

> "If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps"

> "if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono"

> "Don't take a healing Elementalist, use a Druid instead"

>

> And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you, but telling someone to play a style they don't like just because it's the "meta" is very petty and obnoxious in my opinion. The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

>

> So the question is, why have the meta at all? Well if you want to play at the very top of the standings then I agree the meta is the way to go, but this might only apply to perhaps 1-2% of the total playerbase. Is the meta still useful to the other 98%? Yes, but only as a guide. The meta gives you an insight into the thought process of the top players, and it can help new players put their foot in the door without feeling overwhelmed. It can give you a starting point from which to develop your own playstyle from. The meta therefore should be used as a guide to help you find the path, not be the be-all and end-all of the game. No average player should feel forced into playing the meta, especially if the builds in question are uncomfortable for them to play. At the end of the day this is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it, there is no point in playing at all.

>

> So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

>

> Thanks for reading.

>

> EDIT: Getting some backlash for my original title, so I've changed it. Now we can actually discuss the topic at hand without getting offended too much.

 

Your post has zero context which makes it kinda nonsense in the first place. POST A VIDEO OF A FRACTAL CM WITH ARCDPS ON, let the people see for themselvers the performance of whatever build u are playing . THEN complain about stuff such as people asking for meta classes and optimized builds.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @zoomborg.9462 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > Just before I start, I might as well give a little background on myself. I started playing online games back in early 2007 with the original guildwars, which I played semi-competitively. From there I moved onto WoW where I did progression raiding through TBC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Since then I've most been playing League of Legends (reaching the top 10% of players in Europe) before finally giving it up and moving to GW2. I say this only to give you an idea of where I am coming from with my thoughts. Now onto the topic at hand. When I first started playing GW2 I was amazed at the amount of diversity and options available. There seemed to be a playstyle to suit everyone which felt amazing. Of course I got to level 80 only to be told "you must play the meta, or else" with the meta being a very very few select builds that are accepted for each game type. Now I know there are many players who don't follow the meta, but there seem to be more meta-obsessives in this community than in any other gaming community I've known(which is strange considering how little time you've had dps meters and raids available compared to other mmorpgs). I'm not going to lie, it is very frustrating to go into a game and be told to play a certain way no matter what. Here's a little example of what I mean:

> >

> > "If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps"

> > "if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono"

> > "Don't take a healing Elementalist, use a Druid instead"

> >

> > And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you, but telling someone to play a style they don't like just because it's the "meta" is very petty and obnoxious in my opinion. The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

> >

> > So the question is, why have the meta at all? Well if you want to play at the very top of the standings then I agree the meta is the way to go, but this might only apply to perhaps 1-2% of the total playerbase. Is the meta still useful to the other 98%? Yes, but only as a guide. The meta gives you an insight into the thought process of the top players, and it can help new players put their foot in the door without feeling overwhelmed. It can give you a starting point from which to develop your own playstyle from. The meta therefore should be used as a guide to help you find the path, not be the be-all and end-all of the game. No average player should feel forced into playing the meta, especially if the builds in question are uncomfortable for them to play. At the end of the day this is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it, there is no point in playing at all.

> >

> > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

> >

> > Thanks for reading.

> >

> > EDIT: Getting some backlash for my original title, so I've changed it. Now we can actually discuss the topic at hand without getting offended too much.

>

> Your post has zero context which makes it kinda nonsense in the first place. POST A VIDEO OF A FRACTAL CM WITH ARCDPS ON, let the people see for themselvers the performance of whatever build u are playing . THEN complain about stuff such as people asking for meta classes and optimized builds.

 

And yet the amount of thumbs up I've received on my post in the short amount of time it's been up tells me that people agree with my assessment, and that meta elitism is a problem in this game. Even just glancing at the forums, when people make threads with titles like "Build Help. No meta please" that tells me there is something wrong. Also, your opinion on what is considered "viable" seems to be quite simplistic. There is far more to a build's worth than raw dps, especially in a game like GW2 where gameplay is so reliant on boons.

[zoomborg.9462]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @zoomborg.9462 said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > Just before I start, I might as well give a little background on myself. I started playing online games back in early 2007 with the original guildwars, which I played semi-competitively. From there I moved onto WoW where I did progression raiding through TBC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Since then I've most been playing League of Legends (reaching the top 10% of players in Europe) before finally giving it up and moving to GW2. I say this only to give you an idea of where I am coming from with my thoughts. Now onto the topic at hand. When I first started playing GW2 I was amazed at the amount of diversity and options available. There seemed to be a playstyle to suit everyone which felt amazing. Of course I got to level 80 only to be told "you must play the meta, or else" with the meta being a very very few select builds that are accepted for each game type. Now I know there are many players who don't follow the meta, but there seem to be more meta-obsessives in this community than in any other gaming community I've known(which is strange considering how little time you've had dps meters and raids available compared to other mmorpgs). I'm not going to lie, it is very frustrating to go into a game and be told to play a certain way no matter what. Here's a little example of what I mean:

> > >

> > > "If you play a Guardian in fractals you have to go condi dps"

> > > "if you play a Mesmer you have to go Chrono"

> > > "Don't take a healing Elementalist, use a Druid instead"

> > >

> > > And the list goes on and on. Now, if there is 1 thing I learned when I played LoL it was that unless you were playing at a professional level, pure skill will beat the meta builds every time, and that you are more likely to do well playing a non-meta pick you enjoy, than a meta pick you don't enjoy. What this means for GW2 is that unless you are in the Legendary league of sPvP or are looking to break speed records in the raids, you don't need the meta. Now of course if you enjoy playing the meta builds there is nothing stopping you, but telling someone to play a style they don't like just because it's the "meta" is very petty and obnoxious in my opinion. The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

> > >

> > > So the question is, why have the meta at all? Well if you want to play at the very top of the standings then I agree the meta is the way to go, but this might only apply to perhaps 1-2% of the total playerbase. Is the meta still useful to the other 98%? Yes, but only as a guide. The meta gives you an insight into the thought process of the top players, and it can help new players put their foot in the door without feeling overwhelmed. It can give you a starting point from which to develop your own playstyle from. The meta therefore should be used as a guide to help you find the path, not be the be-all and end-all of the game. No average player should feel forced into playing the meta, especially if the builds in question are uncomfortable for them to play. At the end of the day this is a game and if you don't enjoy playing it, there is no point in playing at all.

> > >

> > > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

> > >

> > > Thanks for reading.

> > >

> > > EDIT: Getting some backlash for my original title, so I've changed it. Now we can actually discuss the topic at hand without getting offended too much.

> >

> > Your post has zero context which makes it kinda nonsense in the first place. POST A VIDEO OF A FRACTAL CM WITH ARCDPS ON, let the people see for themselvers the performance of whatever build u are playing . THEN complain about stuff such as people asking for meta classes and optimized builds.

>

> And yet the amount of thumbs up I've received on my post in the short amount of time it's been up tells me that people agree with my assessment, and that meta elitism is a problem in this game. Even just glancing at the forums, when people make threads with titles like "Build Help. No meta please" that tells me there is something wrong. Also, your opinion on what is considered "viable" seems to be quite simplistic. There is far more to a build's worth than raw dps, especially in a game like GW2 where gameplay is so reliant on boons.

 

It doesnt matter how many thumbs up u get, the only reason to bring up the argument of "hey,people are giving me thumbs up" is that u have no hard facts to state your opinion on, no specific situation with actual footage for people to see if ur complaining is justified (no context) so u turn to others for gratification or in this case other people's "thumps up". Personal advice, if u cannot defend an argument by yourself, its better to leave it be than come up with "thumbs up" excuses. It will at least save u some credibility.

So let's talk facts. Any decent group on fractals is running a chrono+druid. As such u have all the boons covered, all the utilites covered, all the cc covered, all the boonstrip covered.Additional utilites like guard aegis/pulls,necro epidemic,engi blinds etc etc is beneficial but is hardly needed. In Gw2 since it's first days efficiency and performance come down to boons and dps. Since a druid and a chrono can provide all boons 24/7 the only question is weather or not the dps classes have actual good single target dps (cleave is mostly secondary cause pulling/stacking). Nowadays most dps builds have been normalized around 30k so if some1 cant dps properly it shows instantly!

Lastly, this forums dont amount to much, if u wanna get more diverse opinions from the broader playerbase u should have posted this on reddit, not here. Beware though...people can actually downvote u there.

[Ellisande.5218]

I don't do fractals or raids. Both are cancer. And not because of the people in them but because of their design where the mobs get to use cheat codes to get unrealistic stats and unrealistic immunities while players aren't allowed to use cheat codes which is just super unfair and unjust.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I started just skipping after awhile, so forgive me if this has been said already.

 

Personally, I occupy an odd niche. You can either call me the most elite casual, or the most casual elitist. I sort of straddle that line. While I am permissive of all classes, I don't like incompetence. I have a lot of experience on the matter, and there is two problems with what you've said:

 

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

>The other main issue at work here is that I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between something being viable, and being in the meta. "Meta" stands for "Most Effective Tactic Available", meaning the very best of the best. Does that mean other things cannot work? Of course it doesn't. On the other hand, viable simply means something that works for the given situation. So for example, Chrono Mesmer is a meta pick for high end PvE, but just because a Firebrand Guardian isn't quite as good doesn't mean it isn't still viable. It can work, just not quite as well. Does that mean we shouldn't use Support Guardians in high end PvE? Absolutely not. On the other hand, an unviable build would be something like trying to do a condi Mesmer build using only a Greatsword. That is something that will never work no matter how good you are because you will never apply any conditions with that weapon (unless you have sigils attached).

 

Somebody who makes a high functioning alternative build is _really rare_. The thought processes that go into making a high functioning build are the same ones that will inevitably make the meta call. You have to be a strange mix of obtuse but dedicated to make a high functioning build. For example, in the engineer forum there is a thread where I tested the effectiveness of the sword. In order to check the sword + shield set, I had to sit down for more than an hour running several variations and tests over and over again. All to see if the sword was merely serviceable in certain situation. This was a lot of time and effort just to be weird and special.

 

I am 99% certain that when somebody approaches me with a snowflake build, they didn't apply a modicum of rigor to test it. The build is going to be thrown together from loosely based concepts and RP purposes. None of their tactics, utilities, or traits are going to be put to measure. The good decisions needed to make a viable build are most likely going to direct somebody to a near meta build, because the meta really is just a collection of several consecutive good decisions.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Second issue, is that is is really easy to be really bad in GW2. I only know so much about other games, but I know for a fact that the variety of gear prefixes and build customization in the game makes being good at the game hard. Most games are designed in such a way that merely existing and getting higher level stuff will naturally orient your character toward being effective for their roles or effective overall. I.E. in DC Universe Online the only customization you had was between choosing whether you wanted to be DPS or your other class role when picking gear, and once chosen you could do it effectively. How strong you were was going to be around your adjusted gear level... no matter what.

 

Players will carry this mentality over, and make what I call an "RNG" build. It is basically a build comprised of random drops assembled together on a toon. It's a bit like celestial, except worse in every way. Then, players will use whatever weapon they want, regardless of whether they are specced for condi or power damage. No coherent rune set or sigils. Their concept of damage won't go beyond "bigger numbers = better", so they'll mash every butt on their hotbar assuming that it is all for damage. To get an accurate comparison to how good a meta build is to an RNG build, compare condi scourge using meta tactics to a condi reaper that does nothing but auto attack with the staff, and you can see how big of a difference it is.

 

These RNG builds are surprisingly common. To break out of this mold, one must have an awareness that they are doing terribly at the game, and once they do so they naturally climb toward running a meta build. If all the elite players had to deal with were people running viable but non-meta comps, you wouldn't get nearly as many complaints. But that isn't what we deal with. We either get people who try to run the meta, or snowflakes so special they can't fit into the team.

 

This isn't just a raid/fractal issue, either. It happens in the overworld as well. A common example, the bosses during the night cycle of Verdant Brink are nearly impossible to kill in a timely fashion, unless two things happen. First, you get people who can break their bar. Second, you get people who do high enough damage to burst the enemies down before time runs out. I have been on maps that never made it past the modrem wyvern matriarch because they all failed hard at this one part. I can _solo_ the matriarch in 10 minutes if I'm on a class that can solo break the bar (herald, scrapper, dragonhunter, daredevil, chronomancer), and I have done so earlier this week. If a zerg of people scale an event up to the point where it takes more than twice as long as me solo on a "just viable" build, then it means everyone is running terrible tactics and terrible builds.

 

You can go deep into the theorycrafting and appropriateness of every skill on every class, but that requires attention and critical thinking skills. The simplest method is to direct players to the meta, because then they have both the tools and the basic rotation to go off of.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

 

A couple of things especially on this part.

1) Swapping builds in this game is a joke, so the big question is, why don't you play a good build? Yes, there are a lot of builds that work close to the meta builds, but there is a myriad of trash builds out there that players use for "rp" or "it looks cool" reasons.

 

2) Completing the fractal/raid is irrelevant, they can be completed by less than the max number of players. If the rest of the players did absolutely everything and you were watching with your trash build, then you were unfair to them and nothing is OK about it.

 

3) Fortunately we have dps meters that can count the effectiveness of builds, they are an amazing choice to prove how good your build is. I've seen weird combos really outclassing the meta builds on many encounters because either the non-meta player was a very good one, the meta player was terrible, or both.

 

4) Communication is key. Because you brought the example of a Tempest, it's a good healer, better at healing than a Druid. If you don't want to be kicked as a Tempest healer, you -should- communicate with the team on what you are running. You can find that many teams are willing to accept many non-meta (but still good) options in their teams, provided the player says beforehand that they are not using a meta build. Joining a fractal team as a healing Tempest but not saying so, gives no opportunity for the team's Druid to swap to something else, or the 2nd Tempest healer, leading to an un-needed extra healing. Also, the "Stats" of this healer will be lower than expected and be attributed to bad play or laziness. All these can be easily solved by COMMUNICATING.

[sigur.9453]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

>

> A couple of things especially on this part.

> 1) Swapping builds in this game is a joke, so the big question is, why don't you play a good build? Yes, there are a lot of builds that work close to the meta builds, but there is a myriad of trash builds out there that players use for "rp" or "it looks cool" reasons.

>

> 2) **Completing the fractal/raid is irrelevant, they can be completed by less than the max number of players. If the rest of the players did absolutely everything and you were watching with your trash build, then you were unfair to them and nothing is OK about it**.

>

> 3) Fortunately we have dps meters that can count the effectiveness of builds, they are an amazing choice to prove how good your build is. I've seen weird combos really outclassing the meta builds on many encounters because either the non-meta player was a very good one, the meta player was terrible, or both.

>

> 4) Communication is key. Because you brought the example of a Tempest, it's a good healer, better at healing than a Druid. If you don't want to be kicked as a Tempest healer, you -should- communicate with the team on what you are running. You can find that many teams are willing to accept many non-meta (but still good) options in their teams, provided the player says beforehand that they are not using a meta build. Joining a fractal team as a healing Tempest but not saying so, gives no opportunity for the team's Druid to swap to something else, or the 2nd Tempest healer, leading to an un-needed extra healing. Also, the "Stats" of this healer will be lower than expected and be attributed to bad play or laziness. All these can be easily solved by COMMUNICATING.

 

this!

for the "meta obssesed" player it´s not about finishing the content, its about finishing it in the fastest and easiest way possible.

most have run this content (too) many times, and it´s not about the challenge anymore.

get in, get loot, get out. repeat the next day/week

especially fractals offer nothing more after you cleared it a few times.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

> >

> > A couple of things especially on this part.

> > 1) Swapping builds in this game is a joke, so the big question is, why don't you play a good build? Yes, there are a lot of builds that work close to the meta builds, but there is a myriad of trash builds out there that players use for "rp" or "it looks cool" reasons.

> >

> > 2) **Completing the fractal/raid is irrelevant, they can be completed by less than the max number of players. If the rest of the players did absolutely everything and you were watching with your trash build, then you were unfair to them and nothing is OK about it**.

> >

> > 3) Fortunately we have dps meters that can count the effectiveness of builds, they are an amazing choice to prove how good your build is. I've seen weird combos really outclassing the meta builds on many encounters because either the non-meta player was a very good one, the meta player was terrible, or both.

> >

> > 4) Communication is key. Because you brought the example of a Tempest, it's a good healer, better at healing than a Druid. If you don't want to be kicked as a Tempest healer, you -should- communicate with the team on what you are running. You can find that many teams are willing to accept many non-meta (but still good) options in their teams, provided the player says beforehand that they are not using a meta build. Joining a fractal team as a healing Tempest but not saying so, gives no opportunity for the team's Druid to swap to something else, or the 2nd Tempest healer, leading to an un-needed extra healing. Also, the "Stats" of this healer will be lower than expected and be attributed to bad play or laziness. All these can be easily solved by COMMUNICATING.

>

> this!

> for the "meta obssesed" player it´s not about finishing the content, its about finishing it in the fastest and easiest way possible.

> most have run this content (too) many times, and it´s not about the challenge anymore.

> get in, get loot, get out. repeat the next day/week

> especially fractals offer nothing more after you cleared it a few times.

 

Well that is a whole different issue, and I would argue that if your only concern is to run through the content as quickly as possible as if it were a chore, then it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your time spent in the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> Well that is a whole different issue, and I would argue that if your only concern is to run through the content as quickly as possible as if it were a chore, then it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your time spent in the game.

 

You have a weird definition of "chore".

Also you should read the part that was quoted, it's slightly different.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > Well that is a whole different issue, and I would argue that if your only concern is to run through the content as quickly as possible as if it were a chore, then it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your time spent in the game.

>

> You have a weird definition of "chore".

> Also you should read the part that was quoted, it's slightly different.

 

"get in, get loot, get out" sounds like a chore to me. If all you care about in a game is the loot then what is the point?

[sigur.9453]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

> > >

> > > A couple of things especially on this part.

> > > 1) Swapping builds in this game is a joke, so the big question is, why don't you play a good build? Yes, there are a lot of builds that work close to the meta builds, but there is a myriad of trash builds out there that players use for "rp" or "it looks cool" reasons.

> > >

> > > 2) **Completing the fractal/raid is irrelevant, they can be completed by less than the max number of players. If the rest of the players did absolutely everything and you were watching with your trash build, then you were unfair to them and nothing is OK about it**.

> > >

> > > 3) Fortunately we have dps meters that can count the effectiveness of builds, they are an amazing choice to prove how good your build is. I've seen weird combos really outclassing the meta builds on many encounters because either the non-meta player was a very good one, the meta player was terrible, or both.

> > >

> > > 4) Communication is key. Because you brought the example of a Tempest, it's a good healer, better at healing than a Druid. If you don't want to be kicked as a Tempest healer, you -should- communicate with the team on what you are running. You can find that many teams are willing to accept many non-meta (but still good) options in their teams, provided the player says beforehand that they are not using a meta build. Joining a fractal team as a healing Tempest but not saying so, gives no opportunity for the team's Druid to swap to something else, or the 2nd Tempest healer, leading to an un-needed extra healing. Also, the "Stats" of this healer will be lower than expected and be attributed to bad play or laziness. All these can be easily solved by COMMUNICATING.

> >

> > this!

> > for the "meta obssesed" player it´s not about finishing the content, its about finishing it in the fastest and easiest way possible.

> > most have run this content (too) many times, and it´s not about the challenge anymore.

> > get in, get loot, get out. repeat the next day/week

> > especially fractals offer nothing more after you cleared it a few times.

>

> Well that is a whole different issue, and I would argue that if your only concern is to run through the content as quickly as possible as if it were a chore, then it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your time spent in the game.

 

may i play the game how i want to?

or is this just allowed for you?

 

i love it

"please accept other people playstiles.....except its different then mine, then you have a problem"

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > Anet could get opinions from those who regularly use non-meta builds to help provide meaningful and impactful buffs to the rest of the professions, thus increasing build diversity.

>

> Meh, Anet have always done their own thing when it came to class balancing. I remember back in GW1 they would rebalance the PvP every 2-3 weeks, regardless of what the community wanted at the time.

Good, the vocal minority on forums should ALWAYS be ignored by developers.

 

 

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > Anet could get opinions from those who regularly use non-meta builds to help provide meaningful and impactful buffs to the rest of the professions, thus increasing build diversity.

> >

> > Meh, Anet have always done their own thing when it came to class balancing. I remember back in GW1 they would rebalance the PvP every 2-3 weeks, regardless of what the community wanted at the time.

> Good, the vocal minority on forums should ALWAYS be ignored by developers.

>

>

Sometimes, but other times the "vocal minority" are the only ones brave enough to speak up for things when in fact the majority of the playerbase already think it.

 

> @sigur.9453 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

> > > >

> > > > A couple of things especially on this part.

> > > > 1) Swapping builds in this game is a joke, so the big question is, why don't you play a good build? Yes, there are a lot of builds that work close to the meta builds, but there is a myriad of trash builds out there that players use for "rp" or "it looks cool" reasons.

> > > >

> > > > 2) **Completing the fractal/raid is irrelevant, they can be completed by less than the max number of players. If the rest of the players did absolutely everything and you were watching with your trash build, then you were unfair to them and nothing is OK about it**.

> > > >

> > > > 3) Fortunately we have dps meters that can count the effectiveness of builds, they are an amazing choice to prove how good your build is. I've seen weird combos really outclassing the meta builds on many encounters because either the non-meta player was a very good one, the meta player was terrible, or both.

> > > >

> > > > 4) Communication is key. Because you brought the example of a Tempest, it's a good healer, better at healing than a Druid. If you don't want to be kicked as a Tempest healer, you -should- communicate with the team on what you are running. You can find that many teams are willing to accept many non-meta (but still good) options in their teams, provided the player says beforehand that they are not using a meta build. Joining a fractal team as a healing Tempest but not saying so, gives no opportunity for the team's Druid to swap to something else, or the 2nd Tempest healer, leading to an un-needed extra healing. Also, the "Stats" of this healer will be lower than expected and be attributed to bad play or laziness. All these can be easily solved by COMMUNICATING.

> > >

> > > this!

> > > for the "meta obssesed" player it´s not about finishing the content, its about finishing it in the fastest and easiest way possible.

> > > most have run this content (too) many times, and it´s not about the challenge anymore.

> > > get in, get loot, get out. repeat the next day/week

> > > especially fractals offer nothing more after you cleared it a few times.

> >

> > Well that is a whole different issue, and I would argue that if your only concern is to run through the content as quickly as possible as if it were a chore, then it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your time spent in the game.

>

> may i play the game how i want to?

> or is this just allowed for you?

>

> i love it

> "please accept other people playstiles.....except its different then mine, then you have a problem"

 

Oh by all means run the content as fast as you can and rush through the game without actually enjoying it. Like you said, you can play however you want, I just don't understand why you would do that.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @Shiyo.3578 said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > > > Anet could get opinions from those who regularly use non-meta builds to help provide meaningful and impactful buffs to the rest of the professions, thus increasing build diversity.

> > >

> > > Meh, Anet have always done their own thing when it came to class balancing. I remember back in GW1 they would rebalance the PvP every 2-3 weeks, regardless of what the community wanted at the time.

> > Good, the vocal minority on forums should ALWAYS be ignored by developers.

> >

> >

> Sometimes, but other times the "vocal minority" are the only ones brave enough to speak up for things when in fact the majority of the playerbase already think it.

>

> > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @sigur.9453 said:

> > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > > > So the next time you find yourself doing a Fractal or Raid with someone who isn't playing strictly by the meta, I urge you to say nothing to them at the beginning. Watch and see how the build works out. If you get to the end of the run, as yourself a simple question: "Did we complete the fractal/raid?" If the answer is yes then there is no need to suggest switching to a more meta pick. Don't judge something as useless just because it isn't in the meta, because there are a lot of viable builds and playstyles out there that are outside the meta.

> > > > >

> > > > > A couple of things especially on this part.

> > > > > 1) Swapping builds in this game is a joke, so the big question is, why don't you play a good build? Yes, there are a lot of builds that work close to the meta builds, but there is a myriad of trash builds out there that players use for "rp" or "it looks cool" reasons.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2) **Completing the fractal/raid is irrelevant, they can be completed by less than the max number of players. If the rest of the players did absolutely everything and you were watching with your trash build, then you were unfair to them and nothing is OK about it**.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3) Fortunately we have dps meters that can count the effectiveness of builds, they are an amazing choice to prove how good your build is. I've seen weird combos really outclassing the meta builds on many encounters because either the non-meta player was a very good one, the meta player was terrible, or both.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4) Communication is key. Because you brought the example of a Tempest, it's a good healer, better at healing than a Druid. If you don't want to be kicked as a Tempest healer, you -should- communicate with the team on what you are running. You can find that many teams are willing to accept many non-meta (but still good) options in their teams, provided the player says beforehand that they are not using a meta build. Joining a fractal team as a healing Tempest but not saying so, gives no opportunity for the team's Druid to swap to something else, or the 2nd Tempest healer, leading to an un-needed extra healing. Also, the "Stats" of this healer will be lower than expected and be attributed to bad play or laziness. All these can be easily solved by COMMUNICATING.

> > > >

> > > > this!

> > > > for the "meta obssesed" player it´s not about finishing the content, its about finishing it in the fastest and easiest way possible.

> > > > most have run this content (too) many times, and it´s not about the challenge anymore.

> > > > get in, get loot, get out. repeat the next day/week

> > > > especially fractals offer nothing more after you cleared it a few times.

> > >

> > > Well that is a whole different issue, and I would argue that if your only concern is to run through the content as quickly as possible as if it were a chore, then it's time to take a step back and re-evaluate your time spent in the game.

> >

> > may i play the game how i want to?

> > or is this just allowed for you?

> >

> > i love it

> > "please accept other people playstiles.....except its different then mine, then you have a problem"

>

> Oh by all means run the content as fast as you can and rush through the game without actually enjoying it. Like you said, you can play however you want, I just don't understand why you would do that.

 

i AM enjoying it this way, thanks for your concern

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> "get in, get loot, get out" sounds like a chore to me. If all you care about in a game is the loot then what is the point?

 

The "get in, get loot, get out" isn't a chore, it's the purpose of playing the game. What else do you want to do inside a dungeon? Have tea with the bosses?

I think you misunderstood, although getting the loot is the prime reason for finishing any type of content (what's the point otherwise?) but while getting it, you can always have your own fun. The smoother the run goes, the more fun you'll have, after all if you are barely surviving because of your teammates incompetence, the run loses the fun factor and becomes a real chore. Smooth and fast runs mean there is more room for jokes and more room for goofing off while playing.

 

I don't know about you, but staying for 1 hour on a boss because your teammates are simply terrible isn't what I find fun and exciting, that's the real chore. Failing the mechanics repeatedly and getting downed isn't fun either.

[Rinn.2375]

I won't lie, I usually pick a meta build for my toons, but after a few hours of playing it "magically" ;) changed for a very-very different build. It's based on the meta, but changed drastically for my playstyle. And it feels much more powerful than the original meta build.

I think meta is a side effect of dropping the tank/healer/dps trinity. People has no idea what are you capable of so they ask witch meta you use. People create the trinity with this to simplify this game for better understanding.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > "get in, get loot, get out" sounds like a chore to me. If all you care about in a game is the loot then what is the point?

>

> The "get in, get loot, get out" isn't a chore, it's the purpose of playing the game. What else do you want to do inside a dungeon? Have tea with the bosses?

> I think you misunderstood, although getting the loot is the prime reason for finishing any type of content (what's the point otherwise?) but while getting it, you can always have your own fun. The smoother the run goes, the more fun you'll have, after all if you are barely surviving because of your teammates incompetence, the run loses the fun factor and becomes a real chore. Smooth and fast runs mean there is more room for jokes and more room for goofing off while playing.

>

> I don't know about you, but staying for 1 hour on a boss because your teammates are simply terrible isn't what I find fun and exciting, that's the real chore. Failing the mechanics repeatedly and getting downed isn't fun either.

 

I see your point, and nobody is asking you to spend an hour on a boss trying to carry dead weight. Throughout this entire thread I get the feeling people are thinking I am trying to justify bad builds that have no chance of working. I'm not, at all. As I said before, there is a huge difference between a build that is viable but not part of the meta, and a non-viable build. My whole point is that just because a build isn't featured on Quantify doesn't mean it is useless. All I'm asking is for non-meta builds to be given a chance instead of immediately rejected just because they aren't in the meta.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > > Didn't even read. The title alone says what person you are.

> > > I run minstrel firebrand and I know better than to expect a group who wants meta, to take me.

> > >

> > > So either do

> > > 1. Do not join a meta wanted group.

> > > 2. Start your own party.

> >

> > Now this should be interesting. Just exactly what person do you think I am?

>

> Nice, the one thing you took away from that.

> **You called people sheep for wanting a meta then switched the title**. But before doing that you start attacking the "sheep". That's a bit contradictory.

> Even after they told you why there is a meta, you still could not grasp it.

>

> To answer your question.

>

> You're either the type of person who WANTS his answer to be right or a narcissistic.

 

Definitely a scapesheep.

Err, scapegoat.

 

By the way, there are currently 2/3 threads which have in common the topic

 

> Complains about Raid and those who raid with meta builds, looking for those who have LI, and so on.

 

Whine apart, i don't get yet what could be a good solution for them ( with them i am refering to those who whine ).

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > > > @"Nick Lentz.6982" said:

> > > > Didn't even read. The title alone says what person you are.

> > > > I run minstrel firebrand and I know better than to expect a group who wants meta, to take me.

> > > >

> > > > So either do

> > > > 1. Do not join a meta wanted group.

> > > > 2. Start your own party.

> > >

> > > Now this should be interesting. Just exactly what person do you think I am?

> >

> > Nice, the one thing you took away from that.

> > **You called people sheep for wanting a meta then switched the title**. But before doing that you start attacking the "sheep". That's a bit contradictory.

> > Even after they told you why there is a meta, you still could not grasp it.

> >

> > To answer your question.

> >

> > You're either the type of person who WANTS his answer to be right or a narcissistic.

>

> Definitely a scapesheep.

> Err, scapegoat.

>

>

 

??? Do you even know what that word means?

[Shirlias.8104]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> ??? Do you even know what that word means?

 

It was definitely the autocorrector.

It wasn't you who offended the raiders.

I have your back pal.