If you're going to add more raids, fix elitism first

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> Raiding ceased to be raiding in WoW because of adding easier difficulties, that's an objective interpretation of the creator of the LFR's own words.

It's not. Yes, he was definitely unsatisfied with his own implementation of the LFR idea, but he never really said that the idea itself was bad. Just that he was not satisfied with how it al turned out. Notice also, that it's his own subjective oppinion, that doesn't seem to be really shared by the dev studio that paid him to do that job. Because, you know, if Blizzard was equally disappointed with the end result, they'd have tried to change it again long ago.

 

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> We had this discourse a while back on the old forums about why the supposed 'Lazarus' reveal in Stronghold didn't matter in the long run based on how they ended the raid, and that the NPC in Bloodstone Fen explained all the necessarily lore tidbits from the raid for LS3E1...

Yes, we had it. Though you can also say that this discussion was about how this reveal _did_ matter and how the infodump from the NPC was not a good substitute.

 

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> In other words, as long as Raiding continues to deal with side-stories or closing lore holes as part of the NON-GW2 universe, raiding in GW2 will never have a lore reason to introduce easier difficulties.

Yes, as long as raids will stick to the minor and unimportant stories. So far this is not the case however.

 

 

[Cronos.6532]

Add gear check and balance the game so any profession is top tier in a raid

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Cronos.6532 said:

> Add gear check

 

that would help, since i have full ascended with meta raid build/stats on 5 different characters. Good suggestion, would also make vetting people easier. Another optional quality of life improvement to help grouping that gw2 raiders don't have.

[Beanna.6712]

So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to dumb down everything for you, uh?

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @Beanna.6712 said:

> So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

 

He still hasn't given a citation for that. It's all conjecture.

 

Based on reddit surveys, at least around 55% of the people there have killed at least 1 raid boss.

[Awaltir.5302]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Cronos.6532 said:

> > Add gear check

>

> that would help, since i have full ascended with meta raid build/stats on 5 different characters. Good suggestion, would also make vetting people easier. Another optional quality of life improvement to help grouping that gw2 raiders don't have.

 

How do you want to make vetting easier, you have li, titles, miniatures(if someone didn't sell them all). Gear check don't even makes sense, you can perfectly fine do raids in exotic gear given how fast you can complete most of encounters if you know what to do .

[Beanna.6712]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @Beanna.6712 said:

> > So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

>

> He still hasn't given a citation for that. It's all conjecture.

>

> Based on reddit surveys, at least around 55% of the people there have killed at least 1 raid boss.

 

That's not a very good measure either. People reading up Reddit are probably among the most informed and dedicated players in this community, very far from the average GW2 carebear I think. According to GW2 Efficiency, on average 33% of the registered account have at least 1 LI. Now I would say the vast majority of players aren't registered on GW2 Efficiency either, so I suppose something around 10% of players have killed a boss is not too far from the thruth. Only Anet knows tho.

[Orpheal.8263]

I absolutely agree here with the opinion, that Raids were from begin pon very bad for all of GW2, they were from begin on lousy designed just harder dungeons full of gameplay desogn elements, that just raise the bad behaviour of people to make elitism just grow, which makes really the dark side of people show up immedinetely you enter a raid in GW2 and do some kind of mistake, that either slows down everyone.. or even can potentially lead to a wipe of the group.

 

Such gameplay design just shows, that the peopel responsible for these raids, absolutely have no clues about, what a Raid should be like, , and that these peopel were freshly just recruited to GW2 just for the task of making raids for GW2, because people wished so much for GW2 to have raids.. because all mainstream MMOTPGd must have raids, right???

 

The problem with GW2s raids is, they focused themself way too much on Dungeon Design, because the peopel responsible for the Raids had from begin on no clue, how Raids in GW2 should look like, what players expect in GW2 how Raids should be lik,e so they had the only thing back then they could focus on and get inspiration from - that was Dungeons - with the intentiion, that the stuff that they dersign should be harder and more challenging than those dungeons and based on 10 people - because again - thats what peopel wanted - challenging content.

The problenm here is, that ANet mixed this stuff then upo with their own vision of how they wanted to try to make Raids - ehmDungeons 2.0 more unique, by makign up the in my eyes, dumb decision, to force into the raid design also general PvE content by adding living world story and masteries into the raid designs, - this way forcing practicalyl PvEers - the largest chunk of the whole GW2 player base, that is full of mostly CASUAL PLAYERS, that are no hardcore raid elitists, like the minority, that screamed here in th forums for the implementation of raids, which mostly - and by mostly I mean felt surely 90% of this small minority, coming from other games like WoW and beign disappointed, that GW2 had at that time no raids as well as like these other games from which people came from over to GW2.

 

By adding Raids into GW2, ANet basically betrayed their own philosophies with that they started GW2 back in 2012 and not only that, they basicalyl betroyed their largest part of the playerbase by adding content for a msall minority that was only loud here in the forums for a feature, that the largest majority of this games community basically never would have wanted to become ever part of this game, especially in siuch a bad designed way that it forces you practically to participate in this game mode, if you want not to lose out on story content, if you dont want to loose out in character progression content (Legendary Armor/Masteries)

 

The very only thing, that Anet would have needed to do, to make basicalyl both sides happy - the kind of hardcore players, as like the casual players and the major PvEer crowd would have been to design Raids with following points in mind:

 

1. No connections to any form of Story Content that has to do with any Living Story segments.. if Raids should have some form of story, then the raids should provide their very own in itself closed side stories, that have nothign at all to do with the current state of the games main story nor livign story at all, so that people aren't forced to do the raids, just to be able to understand in the next living story episode everything ...

 

2. A clear split into simply 2 Gameplay Modes for Raids - *The Hero Mode*, which is practically for practicing the Raid, for playing its story, doing achievements in it, and having significantly lesser difficulty, and significantly lesser rewards, with no timer garbage, that creates DPS races and elitism

And lastly the *Vanquisher Mode*, which is the mode for hardcore players, that seek for the thrill of having some real challenging content, that is made and designed for experienced players, which already know the mechanics of the raid content, which know also how to play efficienctly their classes, and also most likely all other classes as well, so that they have no issues with group findings, due to beign able to switch to whatever class is needed, being flexible, where communication is needed, where enemy knowledge and player skill is needed to fulfll the raids in this mode successful.

Where dedication is needed to have everywhere best in slot gear and optimized builds with the class that you want to play - without that any class gets by design of the raid excluded from being helpful for the raid, just because the class balance offers for you class nothing to be helpful in any raid you want to participate in.

 

If classes get excluded in raids, due to not provoiding anythign useful for the group, because class x does Y alot better than you, while dealign at the same tiome much more DPS, or doing also meanwhile much more support, than you, then this is simply a huge sign of terrible class design and balance as like also bad raid design that isn't in harmony with the class design and the current game balance (due to massively outdated combat system elements!!!)

 

If Anet would put actualy just attention to these 2 points, and redesign the raids, classes and combat sytems accordingly to these 2 point,s then actualy would have Raids a real chance for GW2 to become good good, that can be accepted by everyone, hardcore games, as like casual gamers, because raids would give under this aspect people that are new to raids and hardcore content actually first the chance to actually learn first the mechanics in their own pace, without being forced to search for that extra people via LFG that are the same like then.

With two clear Raid Modes that is also clearly splitted in the LFG system by the two modes, it wouldn't also happen then anymore, that both types of players accidently land in the same party, or that hardcore players get the impression, that they are dragging through some other lesser experienced players in their party.

Because each type of raid player would have then their very own LFG secation based on which Raid mode you want to do

ANd with both modes should players be able to earn legendary armors, just so that you earn them with the more challing version in Vanquisher Mode alot faster.

 

I'm 100% sure, a much bigger part of the whole games community would accept and actively participate in raids, if raids would receive a game mode split between Hero ands Vanquisher Mode to have basically a simpler version and a challenging version.

Then it surely wouldnt be only like 10% of the community, that plays raids, but for surel directly more than the half of the community, that would play Raids actively, if not even much more, because then would be players again - lik with ANets initial core philosohy - play GW2 like you want - by their own pacing able to play Raids, like they want, without gettign dictated by some kind of elitisms, how they have to play, what they have to play ect. - without getting first at all without lots of effort first a chanced at all to experience the content and learn the mechanics, without being forced to be extra for this in a guild or to search for some kind people with the time to teach you all the things in some kind of training runs, when it could be also possible in a simpler Hero Mod,e that you simpoly teach yourself by playing together as Pug by learnign by doing, without havign to fear, that someone immdiately rage quits in your group, and leave,s only because you made a mistake in a boss battle.

 

I'm at least 100% sure, as long these points dont get changed in raids, will I pesonalyl never set a foot into this garbage content made for elitists.

Because its absolutely not acceptasble, why there can't just exist aside of the challing version of a raid also a lsser challening version for the purpose of practicing the mechanics - if it must be, even without any rewards at all.

 

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I'd like to address the recurring assumption that 10% raid and 90% want to but cannot. This assumption is badly flawed.

 

1) There is no proof that only 10% currently raid.

2) There is no proof that everyone who does not currently raid actually wants to. I can state with certainty that all of the people I play with neither want to raid nor care that raids exist.

3) In fact, there is no proof that the demographic that wants to raid and feels excluded from raids is larger than the demographic that does raids.

 

I'd suggest people stick to stating opinions, and leave these "facts" out of it.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @Beanna.6712 said:

> So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

 

I'm so tired of hearing this. I'm one of those who have quit because of jerks in raids. Also, there just aren't that many raids going. The LFG is filled with people selling raids. It's extremely rare that I've actually seen anyone actually looking to make a raid that doesn't have an unrealistic amount of proof with LI, kill proofs, ping gear, whatever. The problem with your attitude and the others that share it, is that while I've done VG/Gors no updraft a ton, I still need help with Sab. I've never cleared sloth even though attempting it many times. I've cleared the first 3 bosses one wing many times, but only attempted the last one once. I need help with those. I have started groups for the ones I know. However, I need an experienced group with TS to teach me the encounters I don't know, are more difficult, and on more than one occasion so I'm sure to know it before I can feel confident enough to start my own group.

[Velran.1052]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > @Beanna.6712 said:

> > So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

>

> I'm so tired of hearing this. I'm one of those who have quit because of jerks in raids. Also, there just aren't that many raids going. The LFG is filled with people selling raids. It's extremely rare that I've actually seen anyone actually looking to make a raid that doesn't have an unrealistic amount of proof with LI, kill proofs, ping gear, whatever. The problem with your attitude and the others that share it, is that while I've done VG/Gors no updraft a ton, I still need help with Sab. I've never cleared sloth even though attempting it many times. I've cleared the first 3 bosses one wing many times, but only attempted the last one once. I need help with those. I have started groups for the ones I know. However, I need an experienced group with TS to teach me the encounters I don't know, are more difficult, and on more than one occasion so I'm sure to know it before I can feel confident enough to start my own group.

 

Why? Literally everyone started out doing these encounters knowing nothing. There are unlimited video guides for each bosses. You do not need people to help you.

Besides you are not entitled to people teaching you, And calling it as some kind of a problem is ridiculous.

 

 

[Khisanth.2948]

> @Beanna.6712 said:

> > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > @Beanna.6712 said:

> > > So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

> >

> > He still hasn't given a citation for that. It's all conjecture.

> >

> > Based on reddit surveys, at least around 55% of the people there have killed at least 1 raid boss.

>

> That's not a very good measure either. People reading up Reddit are probably among the most informed and dedicated players in this community, very far from the average GW2 carebear I think. According to GW2 Efficiency, on average 33% of the registered account have at least 1 LI. Now I would say the vast majority of players aren't registered on GW2 Efficiency either, so I suppose something around 10% of players have killed a boss is not too far from the thruth. Only Anet knows tho.

 

There are 160,772 accounts on GW2E. Looks like a decent sample size but also probably very biased. On the other hand 1 boss kill is also not a great statistic since a kill is required to unlock the mastery line in order to max out all HoT masteries. At the other end of that are people who have used up their LI for crafting.

[MelGT.8326]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

 

> People aren't inherently jerks by default.

>

I can't believe I just read that. Have you ever been outside? These people are exactly the same in real life, don't kid yourself.

 

[Beanna.6712]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > @Beanna.6712 said:

> > So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

>

> I'm so tired of hearing this. I'm one of those who have quit because of jerks in raids. Also, there just aren't that many raids going. The LFG is filled with people selling raids. It's extremely rare that I've actually seen anyone actually looking to make a raid that doesn't have an unrealistic amount of proof with LI, kill proofs, ping gear, whatever. The problem with your attitude and the others that share it, is that while I've done VG/Gors no updraft a ton, I still need help with Sab. I've never cleared sloth even though attempting it many times. I've cleared the first 3 bosses one wing many times, but only attempted the last one once. I need help with those. I have started groups for the ones I know. However, I need an experienced group with TS to teach me the encounters I don't know, are more difficult, and on more than one occasion so I'm sure to know it before I can feel confident enough to start my own group.

 

What? You expect people to hold your hand and carry you through it? What kind of bs entitlement is that? How do you think people learned it in the first place? We all went in blind and wiped a ton until we figured things out, that's how raids work dude.

Nowadays there are hundreds of written and video guides for every single boss in the game to learn from, you have all you need to know about any fight right in front of your nose. (Honestly I've never seen so many people make guides to teach others raids in any other MMO). Just start your own LFG, advertise you are a training group for Sabetha and practice it with other players looking to learn this specific fight. What's so difficult about that? Why do you make excuses for yourself about "woah woah toxic elitist players refuse to teach me encounters, this community is horrible" while you literally just sit on your ass waiting and blaming "unrealistic group requirements" instead of learning on your own with your own group? Come on, quit whining and make your own group, make progress and be proud of yourself for killing a new boss.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > @Beanna.6712 said:

> > So 90-95% of the players don't raid because of elitist groups? That sounds like A LOT of players, so it should be no issue to list your own group in LFG open for noobs and fill it in a second, right? How about you do that, instead of whining on forums to ask for Anet to kitten down everything for you, uh?

>

> He still hasn't given a citation for that. It's all conjecture.

>

> Based on reddit surveys, at least around 55% of the people there have killed at least 1 raid boss.

 

More nitpicking when the majority has asked for alternatives and improvements and the majority can't get into raiding. Doesn't make my point any less true. Keep searching for numbers though I'm sure you'll find some more statistics that don't mean anything.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @Orpheal.8263 said:

> I absolutely agree here with the opinion, that Raids were from begin pon very bad for all of GW2, they were from begin on lousy designed just harder dungeons full of gameplay desogn elements, that just raise the bad behaviour of people to make elitism just grow, which makes really the dark side of people show up immedinetely you enter a raid in GW2 and do some kind of mistake, that either slows down everyone.. or even can potentially lead to a wipe of the group.

>

> Such gameplay design just shows, that the peopel responsible for these raids, absolutely have no clues about, what a Raid should be like, , and that these peopel were freshly just recruited to GW2 just for the task of making raids for GW2, because people wished so much for GW2 to have raids.. because all mainstream MMOTPGd must have raids, right???

>

> The problem with GW2s raids is, they focused themself way too much on Dungeon Design, because the peopel responsible for the Raids had from begin on no clue, how Raids in GW2 should look like, what players expect in GW2 how Raids should be lik,e so they had the only thing back then they could focus on and get inspiration from - that was Dungeons - with the intentiion, that the stuff that they dersign should be harder and more challenging than those dungeons and based on 10 people - because again - thats what peopel wanted - challenging content.

> The problenm here is, that ANet mixed this stuff then upo with their own vision of how they wanted to try to make Raids - ehmDungeons 2.0 more unique, by makign up the in my eyes, kitten decision, to force into the raid design also general PvE content by adding living world story and masteries into the raid designs, - this way forcing practicalyl PvEers - the largest chunk of the whole GW2 player base, that is full of mostly CASUAL PLAYERS, that are no hardcore raid elitists, like the minority, that screamed here in th forums for the implementation of raids, which mostly - and by mostly I mean felt surely 90% of this small minority, coming from other games like WoW and beign disappointed, that GW2 had at that time no raids as well as like these other games from which people came from over to GW2.

>

> By adding Raids into GW2, ANet basically betrayed their own philosophies with that they started GW2 back in 2012 and not only that, they basicalyl betroyed their largest part of the playerbase by adding content for a msall minority that was only loud here in the forums for a feature, that the largest majority of this games community basically never would have wanted to become ever part of this game, especially in siuch a bad designed way that it forces you practically to participate in this game mode, if you want not to lose out on story content, if you dont want to loose out in character progression content (Legendary Armor/Masteries)

>

> The very only thing, that Anet would have needed to do, to make basicalyl both sides happy - the kind of hardcore players, as like the casual players and the major PvEer crowd would have been to design Raids with following points in mind:

>

> 1. No connections to any form of Story Content that has to do with any Living Story segments.. if Raids should have some form of story, then the raids should provide their very own in itself closed side stories, that have nothign at all to do with the current state of the games main story nor livign story at all, so that people aren't forced to do the raids, just to be able to understand in the next living story episode everything ...

>

> 2. A clear split into simply 2 Gameplay Modes for Raids - *The Hero Mode*, which is practically for practicing the Raid, for playing its story, doing achievements in it, and having significantly lesser difficulty, and significantly lesser rewards, with no timer garbage, that creates DPS races and elitism

> And lastly the *Vanquisher Mode*, which is the mode for hardcore players, that seek for the thrill of having some real challenging content, that is made and designed for experienced players, which already know the mechanics of the raid content, which know also how to play efficienctly their classes, and also most likely all other classes as well, so that they have no issues with group findings, due to beign able to switch to whatever class is needed, being flexible, where communication is needed, where enemy knowledge and player skill is needed to fulfll the raids in this mode successful.

> Where dedication is needed to have everywhere best in slot gear and optimized builds with the class that you want to play - without that any class gets by design of the raid excluded from being helpful for the raid, just because the class balance offers for you class nothing to be helpful in any raid you want to participate in.

>

> If classes get excluded in raids, due to not provoiding anythign useful for the group, because class x does Y alot better than you, while dealign at the same tiome much more DPS, or doing also meanwhile much more support, than you, then this is simply a huge sign of terrible class design and balance as like also bad raid design that isn't in harmony with the class design and the current game balance (due to massively outdated combat system elements!!!)

>

> If Anet would put actualy just attention to these 2 points, and redesign the raids, classes and combat sytems accordingly to these 2 point,s then actualy would have Raids a real chance for GW2 to become good good, that can be accepted by everyone, hardcore games, as like casual gamers, because raids would give under this aspect people that are new to raids and hardcore content actually first the chance to actually learn first the mechanics in their own pace, without being forced to search for that extra people via LFG that are the same like then.

> With two clear Raid Modes that is also clearly splitted in the LFG system by the two modes, it wouldn't also happen then anymore, that both types of players accidently land in the same party, or that hardcore players get the impression, that they are dragging through some other lesser experienced players in their party.

> Because each type of raid player would have then their very own LFG secation based on which Raid mode you want to do

> ANd with both modes should players be able to earn legendary armors, just so that you earn them with the more challing version in Vanquisher Mode alot faster.

>

> I'm 100% sure, a much bigger part of the whole games community would accept and actively participate in raids, if raids would receive a game mode split between Hero ands Vanquisher Mode to have basically a simpler version and a challenging version.

> Then it surely wouldnt be only like 10% of the community, that plays raids, but for surel directly more than the half of the community, that would play Raids actively, if not even much more, because then would be players again - lik with ANets initial core philosohy - play GW2 like you want - by their own pacing able to play Raids, like they want, without gettign dictated by some kind of elitisms, how they have to play, what they have to play ect. - without getting first at all without lots of effort first a chanced at all to experience the content and learn the mechanics, without being forced to be extra for this in a guild or to search for some kind people with the time to teach you all the things in some kind of training runs, when it could be also possible in a simpler Hero Mod,e that you simpoly teach yourself by playing together as Pug by learnign by doing, without havign to fear, that someone immdiately rage quits in your group, and leave,s only because you made a mistake in a boss battle.

>

> I'm at least 100% sure, as long these points dont get changed in raids, will I pesonalyl never set a foot into this garbage content made for elitists.

> Because its absolutely not acceptasble, why there can't just exist aside of the challing version of a raid also a lsser challening version for the purpose of practicing the mechanics - if it must be, even without any rewards at all.

>

>

 

I 100% agree, and I think anet needs to look at this. These features that you suggested should have been introduced to raids on day one. I also agree that they betrayed there core value philosophies of catering to a more casual player and the famous "play your way" which raids certainly do not let you do that. Raids basically came out of left field, they dumped them into our laps and then said there you go, no support or options or alternatives, figure it out. Good luck. I don't know why so many would go out of there way to defend the lack of options and alternatives. I'm even more puzzled that the ones defending it are the ones that have no trouble raiding. Very puzzling, since none of these proposed changes would affect what they're doing right now at all.

[rabenpriester.7129]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: The problem is not the raids themselves (or even the difficulty) but with players inability to come together and form a group.

I can't help but admit that you are absolutely, 100% correct with this. It's your own inability to come together with other players and form a group so you can enjoy this content. Have a nice triple release!

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @rabenpriester.7129 said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: The problem is not the raids themselves (or even the difficulty) but with players inability to come together and form a group.

> I can't help but admit that you are absolutely, 100% correct with this. It's your own inability to come together with other players and form a group so you can enjoy this content. Have a nice triple release!

>

 

Only there are 2 ways to read this, either its as you say and im having the problem with forming the group and im contradicting myself in my own sentence, or I meant it as in the community is having trouble organizing groups in general and connecting with potential raiders. I'll let you guess which one I meant, since i'd have to be pretty stupid to contradict myself in my own sentence.

[VaaCrow.3076]

> @MelGT.8326 said:

> > @Oglaf.1074 said:

>

> > People aren't inherently jerks by default.

> >

> I can't believe I just read that. Have you ever been outside? These people are exactly the same in real life, don't kid yourself.

>

 

I can't remember the last time i did a shift at work and didn't get jerk customers/people. :( these people deffinatley exist irl.

[Sykper.6583]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> It's not. Yes, he was definitely unsatisfied with his own implementation of the LFR idea, but he never really said that the idea itself was bad. Just that he was not satisfied with how it al turned out. Notice also, that it's his own subjective oppinion, that doesn't seem to be really shared by the dev studio that paid him to do that job. Because, you know, if Blizzard was equally disappointed with the end result, they'd have tried to change it again long ago.

>

 

The feature that LFR implements is _exactly what everyone who wants an easier difficulty has been clamouring for here._ The creator of it has said that it was a mistake, if he knew in hindsight the result of it he never would have made it.

 

It doesn't get any more clear-cut than that, from a Blizzard Raid Dev. They also couldn't have changed it a long time ago once they opened the dam as now a much higher percentage of would-be raiders got a glimpse of 'supposed' raiding from this LFR. If they just closed the dam back up, those pretenders who enjoyed afking through content would have cried out and Blizzard would have lost subs and effectively cash.

 

Right now GW2 doesn't have this 'easier' mode, and the game is stable. Adding an AFK easy mode to raiding which would delay future content and be a net loss of the invested players who are interested in the hard content Arenanet has to offer, over what is likely going to be a stalemate in gains and losses from the rest of the playerbase. There's not going to a sudden 'rise' in players buying and playing this game for **really easy raiding.** No we are only going to see a loss, and all for the satisfaction of a largely overestimated section of the playerbase who doesn't want to raid the current content at the current difficulty yet despite all known avenues and tools to get into this specific small segment of the game demands MORE from it.

 

> > @Sykper.6583 said:

> > We had this discourse a while back on the old forums about why the supposed 'Lazarus' reveal in Stronghold didn't matter in the long run based on how they ended the raid, and that the NPC in Bloodstone Fen explained all the necessarily lore tidbits from the raid for LS3E1...

> Yes, we had it. Though you can also say that this discussion was about how this reveal _did_ matter and how the infodump from the NPC was not a good substitute.

 

If only I could find my original post, but the simplest terms is this. **Regardless of whether you did or did not do the raid, Lazarus's condition was still unknown.**

 

All our efforts in Stronghold of the Faithful to stop Xera left the player with a big question mark, we could not confirm Lazarus did or did not exist or lived there, there was a chamber for him with nothing but an empty space. The player practically theorizes with Glenna that perhaps the entity there was eradicated by the Bloodstone Magic when Xera was defeated, it was left with the largest QUESTION MARK in existence.

 

All that raiders were left with, given White Mantle involvement is that MAYBE Lazarus would show himself later. A big question, not even a reveal, Arenanet could have easily changed the storyline to fit this as well and we would have something very similar to how Saul's ending was done in Bastion.

 

>

> > @Sykper.6583 said:

> > In other words, as long as Raiding continues to deal with side-stories or closing lore holes as part of the NON-GW2 universe, raiding in GW2 will never have a lore reason to introduce easier difficulties.

> Yes, as long as raids will stick to the minor and unimportant stories. So far this is not the case however.

>

 

Sorry if you feel that all important Guild Wars Lore is off-limits to Raiding, fortunately the devs and several of us feel differently. They've said that Raiding was an excellent method to close these plot holes from the first Guild Wars, while you may immediately disagree or be insulted by it, you should probably get over it fast. Raiding so far has been an excellent method for conveying the side-stories that existed in GW1 that were never cleaned up. Saul's redemption could not have been cleanly put into the Main GW2 Story over killing the Elder Dragons, but in a Raid it suits it quite well. I have a lovely list of other plot-holes and speculation that I hope Arenanet goes over in GW2 that's utterly irrelevant in the main story, and given the degree of severity of many of them I believe a Raid plot for them would be just fine.

 

I'm hoping that the next raid deals with us dealing with Dhuum, he was challenging in the original GW so naturally he's just another thing we would have to deal with on the Side. You know, as a Side-Story.

[Vulf.3098]

Blizzard tried to tone down LFR a couple of times and it brought nothing but tears to the forums. In MoP they actually made LFR a little harder and people whined about how long it took to complete so Blizzard ended up nerfing the bosses even more. In WoD they made the content a complete joke but made the rewards for it really really bad and guess what? People came to the forums to cry about that too. There is no winning here because if you make it too easy with good rewards then there is little to no point in doing the harder difficulties which is why Blizzard started adding really good mounts to the last boss on the hardest difficulty along with unique armor and weapon skins. People came to the forums to whine about that too.

 

The only reason I was for LFR in WoW was because of how much Lore and end game progression was tied to raiding in that game. In Gw2 you can get full ascended gear and several legendaries without even stepping foot into a Raid. Blizzard opened a pandoras box that they will never be able to close and some of the devs have regrets about it.

[Deihnyx.6318]

> @Kingkiller.9645 said:

> > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > Let's assume that 10% of GW2 players completed raids, though it won't be the truth.

> > Then we do have 90% players who didn't.

> >

> > Let's assume also that 90% players complain about the fact that 10% players tend to be elitists.

> > Even if so, you with the 90% of GW2 are allowed to play together, make your own team, and clear the raid however you want.

> >

> > But here's the bitter truth.

> > Players which are part of this 90% group have no idea how to play content.

> > They don't try to set up a party, and sometimes they don't read guides or watch videos in order to learn the strategy.

> >

> > The problems are not the elitists, but those who put blame on them.

> > Nobody want to carry em, and they don't want to make an effort in order to create a party and make a try with it.

>

> There are three core reasons why I do not play raids.

> 1. Nobody wants you in their group. Introductory raid guilds do not raid very often - once a week at a specific time. I have not found any who raid more often than perhaps twice a week.

> 2. Elitism. Yes, you can find people who aren't elitist, but finding someone who is willing to raid, willing to learn, willing to play with newer people, and won't start screaming or just leave the moment someone dies is extremely difficult. And you need to find 9 of them.

> 3. I don't feel the need to raid.

>

> You should not have to look up a guide to figure out how to kill a raid.

> Even if you did, there are tons of people out there who are 100% capable of doing so.

> They choose not to because of the content. Not their inability to play that content, but the attitude in the community, the fact that even if they run one or two or three raids with people who are willing to learn and teach new raiders, they will eventually run with the elitists. Some people do not because they are not interested in the rewards. Others do not because it is simply not their style of play. Just because someone doesn't raid doesn't mean they are unable to do so.

>

> The very fact that you are saying that elitism isn't the problem IS in itself elitism. You are blaming people who feel excluded and cut out by an already established raiding community. You make the very blatantly false claim that a vast majority of players do not know how to play the game.

> They do.

> They choose not to because if they enter a raid, they will be greeted with "you are not one of the 10%, so you must be kitten terrible at the game". It's an automatic judgement that simply because these players have never played a raid and never even attempted it, it must mean that they are bad.

> And it is exactly what you have said in your comment.

>

> There are exactly two reasons why I would ever attempt a raid. The first one is exploring the raid areas - getting them revealed on my map. I have already done this thanks to someone getting me into some cleared raid areas.

> The second reason is to unlock the raids mastery line, once I get back to HoT maps and finish the other lines.

> For no other reasons would I even consider a raid. I have no interest in them. Not because I can't, but because it is an aspect of the game that I have no desire to be a part of. Every time raids are discussed, elitism is a key aspect of the conversation. Even if no accusations of elitism are made, elitists themselves are abundant and they make themselves heard. "Only a small fraction of players are capable of doing raids, the content is too hard for everyone else."

> Elitism has no real grounding. Everyone is capable of doing them. Most are simply not interested in doing so. The only reason elitism exists is because they are called "raids", and because they are significantly more difficult to start playing than to play with an already established group and experience.

 

Lots of what you (and some others) are saying is basically making a generality out of some bad apples. There are definitely bad apples, pretty much like everywhere else, but you choose to focus on that rather than trying to understand why the raid community is structured the way it is.

 

Nothing about this is personal, it's not even about being good or bad. Raids are made to be challenging content and such require commitment, and if you're not willing to do the first few steps (already made a LOT easier these days), if you're not willing to adapt your build, try other classes, devote some money and time into getting proper gear, if you don't get the thrill excitement of getting your first kill after having spent hours with your buddies figuring out how to get better at it, if all you care about is having more experienced players do the work for you, then you don't understand the philosophy behind end game content such as raids.

Raid content is made to be expensive for you wallet, it's made to challenge the way you play, it's made to force you into organized groups where strategy is key. It's made for people who are COMMITTED to it... And it's all of that that is asked by the raiding community.

You can claim to be good all you want, but that's not what it's about, it's never been what it's about. Once again, lots of people in pvp claim they're good and their team is so bad, we all know how much these claims are worth.

 

Don't agree with it? You are free to try anyway, free to say I don't care about your rules and I'm gonna do it my way and make my group free of Elitism™, free to not give a kitten about meta builds because they're useless, free to accept anyone in your group because it's Right. Please do it, and spend the next few hours, or days, trying to get your kills. And you know what? Maybe you'll realize that it's the path a LOT of now experienced raiders went through before eventually figuring out there were some untold rules for a reason. And that after going through all these hours figuring out a fights, they'd rather do it from now on only with people who went through the same thing.

 

I sincerely WISH some people would actually think of that, of what the word "experienced" means before automatically blaming the raiding community as a whole. It's a small part of content made to be that way, it follows a kind of "dark souls" philosophy that some of us love.

I don't like farming, I don't like brain easy bosses, I like the thrill of raids, and I'm tired of constantly seeing people who already get to cause story nerfs, meta nerfs, blaming dps meters for everything, come here now and call us "elitists" just for liking a certain philosophy of what gaming also is (and used to be)

 

 

I'm sorry, but just like you don't feel the need to learn by yourself, a "experienced raider" also doesn't have to teach newer people. You can always nicely ask to be carried to get the kills, faster - and there are many groups that will take new players in - but by no way is it "the job" of the experienced raiders to help you get there. If they want quick kills for whatever reason, it's their own right, just like it's your right to ask for help, but the rhetoric "they're elitists" for doing things these ways is just double standard.

If you run with groups that asked for experienced players and you're not experienced in the first place. Yes you will run into that issue, and rightfully so, you ARE the one being rude by lying about your experience and having 9 other people waste their time on you. Once again, you don't have the high grounds because you want to learn, other people don't have to be your teachers, and especially if you don't ask and try to force your way in, they have no reason to be nice with you.

This is not only true for raids, but also dungeons, fractals, pvp, and pretty much anything.

 

Seriously, enough with this cheap excuse that raids are for elitists only.

 

 

> @Kingkiller.9645 said:

> You should not have to look up a guide to figure out how to kill a raid.

Yes, you should definitely look up a guide for optional end game content. Or if you don't, be prepared to spend hours and hours figuring out fights just like lots of first hour raiders did.

This simple sentence reflects everything wrong with your (and some others here) claim.

[Sykper.6583]

> @Vulf.3098 said:

> Blizzard tried to tone down LFR a couple of times and it brought nothing but tears to the forums. In MoP they actually made LFR a little harder and people whined about how long it took to complete so Blizzard ended up nerfing the bosses even more. In WoD they made the content a complete joke but made the rewards for it really really bad and guess what? People came to the forums to cry about that too. There is no winning here because if you make it too easy with good rewards then there is little to no point in doing the harder difficulties which is why Blizzard started adding really good mounts to the last boss on the hardest difficulty along with unique armor and weapon skins. People came to the forums to whine about that too.

>

> The only reason I was for LFR in WoW was because of how much Lore and end game progression was tied to raiding in that game. In Gw2 you can get full ascended gear and several legendaries without even stepping foot into a Raid. Blizzard opened a pandoras box that they will never be able to close and some of the devs have regrets about it.

 

This.

 

We would be far more receptive of the complaints if say, in order to kill Mordremoth in his mind you actually had to form a 10 man and fight it, and it was as difficult as VG. Aka, you couldn't finish the frigging main GW2 story without raiding. We had this issue with 'Victory or Death' back in Vanilla GW2 back in the day, you had to do a 5 man dungeon to finish killing Zhaitan, everyone flipped out about the main story being locked behind this, and Arenanet listened. THIS WAS FAIR.

[Rennie.6750]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Kapax.3801 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > @Kapax.3801 said:

> > > > I never tire of repeating ...

> > > >

> > > > Normal Mode / Challenge Mode

> > > >

> > > > End of the problem, everyone happy

> > > >

> > > > 

> > > >

> > >

> > > Except for:

> > >

> > > - the content which had to get cut because of the time commitment the developers had to make to implement normal mode

> > > - the people for whom normal mode is still to hard

> > > - the adjusted loot for normal mode not being on par as "hard mode"

> > >

> > > and those 3 are just off the top of my head. Yeah, everyone is happy with this idea.

> >

> > 1.- You do not believe it.

>

> You think adjusting some numbers here and there will make the fights significantly easier? You do realise many bosses have instant kill attacks which would have to get re-balanced. Mechanics which dictate the fights are harder than the actual numeric difficulty. Why do you think top raiders are able to complete these encounters with less than a full squad or in greens? So yes, the amount of work increases. Raids are already on a 6-9 months release cycle with a small team.

>

> > @Kapax.3801 said:

> > 2.- normal mode, made for people who do not search for a meta build, only complete the content weekly, such as fractals.

>

> Yes because dungeons while infinitely easier had no elitism and forced meta. Fractals also have no meta currently. I'm totally seeing it. /s

>

> > @Kapax.3801 said:

> > 3.- You can only get the reward once a week and per boss, so avoid double farming. (hundreds of ideas for this, dozens of MMOs as an example)

>

> So you think people will be fine with having no access to legendary armor via easier raids? Or are you actually suggesting arenanet offer the same rewards for easier raids as they do now for the current raids? That opens up a totally new issue and I'm quite sure the developers won't do that.

 

The thing that you and a few others seem to consistently and probably willingly ignore is why people want easier raid modes. They saw it in other games, they probably tried it, had fun, and then they play GW2 and they see nothing like this. Yet there are raids but they just can't play them on their terms. They also see fractal tiers (breeding very capable pugs, mind you, so this design is very effective to get people to improve and broaden their experiences) so it's not like Arenanet devs are incompetent on that matter.

 

Of course the issue is that it exists in a lot of other MMOs, it works, it's fun, and it gets players to play a wider variety of content. It also lets some of them climb the difficulty ladder. In WoW LFR lets you increase your item level and it didn't kill higher tiers of raid at all, so obviously rewards are a non issue.

 

I see then the next argument: "but we shouldn't compare GW2 to other games". Yes, we totally should. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's competition, and there are clearly games with an edge on a lot of stuff, and ANet has a very, very large dev team compared to the industry standards, yet, they fail to deliver something that has become a basic feature of the genre and that is also done by much smaller teams with much smaller budgets. I don't know what they spend all this money on, but clearly, it's not on content or development if they can't make what every single other game has been doing for years.

 

We totally should look at other MMOs, see what works, what we like, and ask for it. And the devs totally should listen in spite of their pathetic budget excuses. At some point, as a game dev, constantly denying a feature that is considered fun in every single other MMO by those who experienced it and is requested at least once a week for over two years should make you wonder if you really understand what your job is about. So, please stop making excuses and shilling for ANet. They do have the devs and the budget if they want to, they just don't want to but won't tell us why, obviously. I suspect that their refusal is far more ideological than practical on that matter, which makes it even more ridiculous.

[Rennie.6750]

> @Deihnyx.6318 said:

> > @Kingkiller.9645 said:

> > > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > > Let's assume that 10% of GW2 players completed raids, though it won't be the truth.

> > > Then we do have 90% players who didn't.

> > >

> > > Let's assume also that 90% players complain about the fact that 10% players tend to be elitists.

> > > Even if so, you with the 90% of GW2 are allowed to play together, make your own team, and clear the raid however you want.

> > >

> > > But here's the bitter truth.

> > > Players which are part of this 90% group have no idea how to play content.

> > > They don't try to set up a party, and sometimes they don't read guides or watch videos in order to learn the strategy.

> > >

> > > The problems are not the elitists, but those who put blame on them.

> > > Nobody want to carry em, and they don't want to make an effort in order to create a party and make a try with it.

> >

> > There are three core reasons why I do not play raids.

> > 1. Nobody wants you in their group. Introductory raid guilds do not raid very often - once a week at a specific time. I have not found any who raid more often than perhaps twice a week.

> > 2. Elitism. Yes, you can find people who aren't elitist, but finding someone who is willing to raid, willing to learn, willing to play with newer people, and won't start screaming or just leave the moment someone dies is extremely difficult. And you need to find 9 of them.

> > 3. I don't feel the need to raid.

> >

> > You should not have to look up a guide to figure out how to kill a raid.

> > Even if you did, there are tons of people out there who are 100% capable of doing so.

> > They choose not to because of the content. Not their inability to play that content, but the attitude in the community, the fact that even if they run one or two or three raids with people who are willing to learn and teach new raiders, they will eventually run with the elitists. Some people do not because they are not interested in the rewards. Others do not because it is simply not their style of play. Just because someone doesn't raid doesn't mean they are unable to do so.

> >

> > The very fact that you are saying that elitism isn't the problem IS in itself elitism. You are blaming people who feel excluded and cut out by an already established raiding community. You make the very blatantly false claim that a vast majority of players do not know how to play the game.

> > They do.

> > They choose not to because if they enter a raid, they will be greeted with "you are not one of the 10%, so you must be kitten terrible at the game". It's an automatic judgement that simply because these players have never played a raid and never even attempted it, it must mean that they are bad.

> > And it is exactly what you have said in your comment.

> >

> > There are exactly two reasons why I would ever attempt a raid. The first one is exploring the raid areas - getting them revealed on my map. I have already done this thanks to someone getting me into some cleared raid areas.

> > The second reason is to unlock the raids mastery line, once I get back to HoT maps and finish the other lines.

> > For no other reasons would I even consider a raid. I have no interest in them. Not because I can't, but because it is an aspect of the game that I have no desire to be a part of. Every time raids are discussed, elitism is a key aspect of the conversation. Even if no accusations of elitism are made, elitists themselves are abundant and they make themselves heard. "Only a small fraction of players are capable of doing raids, the content is too hard for everyone else."

> > Elitism has no real grounding. Everyone is capable of doing them. Most are simply not interested in doing so. The only reason elitism exists is because they are called "raids", and because they are significantly more difficult to start playing than to play with an already established group and experience.

>

> Lots of what you (and some others) are saying is basically making a generality out of some bad apples. There are definitely bad apples, pretty much like everywhere else, but you choose to focus on that rather than trying to understand why the raid community is structured the way it is.

>

> Nothing about this is personal, it's not even about being good or bad. Raids are made to be challenging content and such require commitment, and if you're not willing to do the first few steps (already made a LOT easier these days), if you're not willing to adapt your build, try other classes, devote some money and time into getting proper gear, if you don't get the thrill excitement of getting your first kill after having spent hours with your buddies figuring out how to get better at it, if all you care about is having more experienced players do the work for you, then you don't understand the philosophy behind end game content such as raids.

> Raid content is made to be expensive for you wallet, it's made to challenge the way you play, it's made to force you into organized groups where strategy is key. It's made for people who are COMMITTED to it... And it's all of that that is asked by the raiding community.

> You can claim to be good all you want, but that's not what it's about, it's never been what it's about. Once again, lots of people in pvp claim they're good and their team is so bad, we all know how much these claims are worth.

>

> Don't agree with it? You are free to try anyway, free to say I don't care about your rules and I'm gonna do it my way and make my group free of Elitism™, free to not give a kitten about meta builds because they're useless, free to accept anyone in your group because it's Right. Please do it, and spend the next few hours, or days, trying to get your kills. And you know what? Maybe you'll realize that it's the path a LOT of now experienced raiders went through before eventually figuring out there were some untold rules for a reason. And that after going through all these hours figuring out a fights, they'd rather do it from now on only with people who went through the same thing.

>

> I sincerely WISH some people would actually think of that, of what the word "experienced" means before automatically blaming the raiding community as a whole. It's a small part of content made to be that way, it follows a kind of "dark souls" philosophy that some of us love.

> I don't like farming, I don't like brain easy bosses, I like the thrill of raids, and I'm tired of constantly seeing people who already get to cause story nerfs, meta nerfs, blaming dps meters for everything, come here now and call us "elitists" just for liking a certain philosophy of what gaming also is (and used to be)

>

>

> I'm sorry, but just like you don't feel the need to learn by yourself, a "experienced raider" also doesn't have to teach newer people. You can always nicely ask to be carried to get the kills, faster - and there are many groups that will take new players in - but by no way is it "the job" of the experienced raiders to help you get there. If they want quick kills for whatever reason, it's their own right, just like it's your right to ask for help, but the rhetoric "they're elitists" for doing things these ways is just double standard.

> If you run with groups that asked for experienced players and you're not experienced in the first place. Yes you will run into that issue, and rightfully so, you ARE the one being rude by lying about your experience and having 9 other people waste their time on you. Once again, you don't have the high grounds because you want to learn, other people don't have to be your teachers, and especially if you don't ask and try to force your way in, they have no reason to be nice with you.

> This is not only true for raids, but also dungeons, fractals, pvp, and pretty much anything.

>

> Seriously, enough with this cheap excuse that raids are for elitists only.

>

>

> > @Kingkiller.9645 said:

> > You should not have to look up a guide to figure out how to kill a raid.

> Yes, you should definitely look up a guide for optional end game content. Or if you don't, be prepared to spend hours and hours figuring out fights just like lots of first hour raiders did.

> This simple sentence reflects everything wrong with your (and some others here) claim.

 

You can say that you don't want players currently learning, but it's the designer's job to have you teach them. There can be incentives or inconveniences for not doing so. A lot of games do that. GW2 is no different, in many scenarios, not having inexperienced players joining you is very inconvenient and definitely not trivial, including for not so easy content such as fractals and dungeons. So far it works and nobody complains about it.