Feanor.2358 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > > > > > > > > > > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. > > > > > > > > > > There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL. > > > > > > > > You're even *starting* your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling. > > > > > > > > And no, it *is* a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I *was* willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't. > > > > > > Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear. > > > > Adding easier raids won't solve any "issues" in any case. If anything, what you have in mind will only create actual issues, like making their original, intended difficulty meaningless. Why would you risk failing if you could slack and get the rewards anyway in less time? Mind you, you're not asking for some symbolic rewards here, you feel insulted by the fact you don't get in the faceroll low-tier fractals rewards comparable to the higher tiers. You don't want to enjoy content, you want to get every reward the game has to offer with as little effort as possible. You shouldn't. It would make the game boring very, very fast. > > That's not my point, my point is that there needs to be rewards in order for things to be played. Rewards like dungeons make t1 fractals completely worthless except as a boring and uninteresting slow grind for progression. And please, difficulty is completely irrelevant. I got more ascendant recipes playing two meta events in HoT than in a month of fractals (And I still have half my chest keys available...), and I get more money running around clicking on resources nodes than from playing quite a lot of "endgame" content, so in this game, difficulty is already completely irrelevant in terms of rewards. Denying that there is no difficulty/reward balance in this game is delusional, as the devs very much embraces this kind of design already. Seriously. I got an ascended backpacks clicking on kitten for 4-5h tops this week (5 days, 1h a day collecting pearls and doing hearts) in siren's landing. All this talk about difficulty is really silly. It seems pretty well balanced to me. If you care about gold/hr, you go harvesting, chest-farming, whatever suits your fancy. If you want to have fun, you play instanced content. There's something for everyone, no? You just want to remove that choice and turn everything into mindless grind-fest that showers you with all the possible rewards for no effort at all. No, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Cutter.9376 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: >> See, that's the thing. If you want a lower difficulty, *you can already play it*. Dungeons, low-tier fractals, take your pick. Anything _new_? I thought not. Anet hasn't added new instanced group content for the general population in _years_, and the rewards are intentionally garbage in all of it. >If you want a higher difficulty, there's only raids. If it was only about the challenge, these topics wouldn't exist. It's about the rewards. And >wanting the same rewards with less to no effort is exactly laziness. And greed. Turns out making content the devs explicitly want to be inaccessible to most of the playerbase (as one dev has so carelessly stated outright) the only source for legendary armor in PVE makes people angry, who could have ever forseen such a thing? (also don't get so high and mighty, if Anet gutted raid rewards like they did dungeons they'd be dead within the day) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said: > Anything _new_? I thought not. Anet hasn't added new instanced group content for the general population in _years_, and the rewards are intentionally garbage in all of it. 3 new fractals in 1 year aren't instanced content for the general population? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > >> See, that's the thing. If you want a lower difficulty, *you can already play it*. Dungeons, low-tier fractals, take your pick. > Anything _new_? I thought not. Anet hasn't added new instanced group content for the general population in _years_, and the rewards are intentionally garbage in all of it. > > >If you want a higher difficulty, there's only raids. If it was only about the challenge, these topics wouldn't exist. It's about the rewards. And >wanting the same rewards with less to no effort is exactly laziness. And greed. > Turns out making content the devs explicitly want to be inaccessible to most of the playerbase (as one dev has so carelessly stated outright) the only source for legendary armor in PVE makes people angry, who could have ever forseen such a thing? > > (also don't get so high and mighty, if Anet gutted raid rewards like they did dungeons they'd be dead within the day) You must have missed the new fractals, along with the reworked ones. And while there certainly are players who raid for the rewards, there are others - my static among them - who do multiple clears a week. Do you think it's for the 3 bags of gear you could get by digging 2 chests in SW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Jahroots.6791 said: > Mmm-hmm. There's also several instances where people simply stopped playing. But that ain't even the point, man. > > Truthfully, whats important is that we shouldn't discount complaints about raid difficulty as lazy players who want everything for no effort. It's too dismissive and hyperbolic. It's a new forum. Let's at least try to have civil, objective discussions without the snarkiness. > > It's shown to be not terribly off the mark though. There have been a few confessions in this new thread of individuals who simply just want the rewards, without consequence of what happens to raids. I'm going to be honest, given what Crystal has already told us, it's not on current raiders anymore to prove why raiding deserves to stay as is. Anet is under the impression that the participation levels are right where they need to be or higher to warrant making a decision to stop making challenge motes and focus on making them straight up challenging per their intended purpose. We are now looking for reasons aside from Story (Raids are a Side-Story with allusions to the main plot, a completed instance carries a vast majority of the lore compared to the encounters), accessibility (Raids are being done several different ways, less gear, less people, weird comps, you name it it might have been done. The barrier of entry is not as high as the hyperbole critics make it) and rewards (With Legendary Armor functionality outside of Raids now, there's absolutely no excuse to continue demanding another place in PvE for it, it carries the same weight as other legendaries being found in different game modes), that those critical of raids now want them changed. There has not yet been a solid enough reason, or if it is solid enough that it is BIG enough, to demand story mode or easy mode or whatever. No amount of supposed 'moral rights' or 'I paid for this game so I demand all of the rewards' is going to change this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahroots.6791 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 What's strange is that despite Crystal's post it still feels like the community in this sub-forum is still being defensive and trying to create an atmosphere where criticism isn't welcome. There's something almost cult-like about the predictable responses to posts you should all be ignoring at this point. *shudders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @meeflak.9714 said: > > > > > > > > > > > Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL. > > > > > > > > > > You're even *starting* your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling. > > > > > > > > > > And no, it *is* a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I *was* willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't. > > > > > > > > Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear. > > > > > > Adding easier raids won't solve any "issues" in any case. If anything, what you have in mind will only create actual issues, like making their original, intended difficulty meaningless. Why would you risk failing if you could slack and get the rewards anyway in less time? Mind you, you're not asking for some symbolic rewards here, you feel insulted by the fact you don't get in the faceroll low-tier fractals rewards comparable to the higher tiers. You don't want to enjoy content, you want to get every reward the game has to offer with as little effort as possible. You shouldn't. It would make the game boring very, very fast. > > > > That's not my point, my point is that there needs to be rewards in order for things to be played. Rewards like dungeons make t1 fractals completely worthless except as a boring and uninteresting slow grind for progression. And please, difficulty is completely irrelevant. I got more ascendant recipes playing two meta events in HoT than in a month of fractals (And I still have half my chest keys available...), and I get more money running around clicking on resources nodes than from playing quite a lot of "endgame" content, so in this game, difficulty is already completely irrelevant in terms of rewards. Denying that there is no difficulty/reward balance in this game is delusional, as the devs very much embraces this kind of design already. Seriously. I got an ascended backpacks clicking on kitten for 4-5h tops this week (5 days, 1h a day collecting pearls and doing hearts) in siren's landing. All this talk about difficulty is really silly. > > It seems pretty well balanced to me. If you care about gold/hr, you go harvesting, chest-farming, whatever suits your fancy. If you want to have fun, you play instanced content. There's something for everyone, no? You just want to remove that choice and turn everything into mindless grind-fest that showers you with all the possible rewards for no effort at all. No, thanks. See, that's the problem with this game, people do care about what others get, even if it absolutely does not change how you experience the content in any way if others get something. You admit yourself a post later than your group doesn't care for the rewards as you just play raids for a bag of crap after the weekly reset. Also, please stop the constant strawman argument of "people want things because they're bad/for no effort". That's annoying. So I'll address it once again, but I trust you to bring that crap up again anyway on page 11 so no worries, I am indeed wasting time: some people just want middle of the road and moderately challenging content they can play however the f* they want because putting up with silly raiding guilds requirement isn't for them (anymore). I've been in raiding guilds in the past. Semi hardcore, hardcore, even a casual one, I tried everything. And what was the experience? Peer pressure when you don't feel like raiding a given week. Peer pressure because you're a really good player and should really start levelling up a tank, we need one who doesn't derp, you know? Peer pressure to prevent me from trying fun/silly things. Why? Because there's no middle of the road content that can be played with whatever with a few good players able to carry the rest of the raid regardless of what silly thing they're trying this week. Also, getting rewards for it, because there's no reason not to get anything since faceroll open world content showers you with gold/ascendent gear. It's not an unreasonable request as it makes sense since it's exactly what the core game is, and it's an experience many people want. It would also take nothing from you because you wouldn't play with these people anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Jahroots.6791 said: > There's something almost cult-like about the predictable responses to posts you should all be ignoring at this point. *shudders You are right. The reason threads like this even get to so many pages is because new people come and post without reading the rest of the thread where all the topics were already discussed. Then the same arguments are repeated until the next post comes. It gets predictable after a while, maybe ignoring those posts, instead of answering them over and over, is the best course of action. > @Rennie.6750 said: > It would also take nothing from you because you wouldn't play with these people anyway. I guess it wouldn't take any development time then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > Also, please stop the constant strawman argument of "people want things because they're bad/for no effort". That's annoying. So I'll address it once again, but I trust you to bring that crap up again anyway on page 11 so no worries, I am indeed wasting time: some people just want middle of the road and moderately challenging content they can play however the f* they want And I will answer it again: they're already free to do that. Play t4 fractals. Too hard? Play t3 ones. You get the gist. There's dungeons, too. That's a load of BS you're giving me at the moment. If it's the less challenging content they seek, we wouldn't be flooded with topics like this for months. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyf.1490 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 If every person who wants to raid but is too scared to try because they don't have any experience and think they might be slow to learn grouped up and did the raid together, dozens of new raid groups would be created overnight. Whatever your situation is, _there are many others in the same boat._ I have no doubt there are people who attempted to raid for hours, maybe even tens of hours, and were frustrated and quit. But it seems like the vast majority assume they can't do it and never try. Y'all should just team up. You might even make some new friends in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 > @timmyf.1490 said: > Y'all should just team up. You might even make some new friends in the process. That's it. Besides, the best thing about raids is killing a challenging boss for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uthman.4873 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomborg.9462 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 All these elitist groups dont let me play my nomad guard... Such elitist, much dillusional..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runeblade.7514 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 What I like about Fractals is that there is easy fractals and there is hard fractals. The easy fractals teaches me mechanics that prepares me for the hard fractals. If there was only T4 fractals at the start, it would be hard for me to get into fractals because people would be excluding me because I am not experienced just like them just like how raid currently does. I wouldn't have the minimal Pristine Fractal token to get in a group. It was really hard to get into Arah because no one wanted inexperienced players. Luckily, many other dungeons were easy to learn and PvP allowed me to get Arah gear. To this day, I still haven't experienced Arah content. I know a easier raid difficulty will help teach players get into a harder difficulty raid because lower tier fractals helped me get into higher tier fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @CptAurellian.9537 said: > > @timmyf.1490 said: > > Y'all should just team up. You might even make some new friends in the process. > That's it. Besides, the best thing about raids is killing a challenging boss for the first time. LOL no, you've not raided for long enough it seems. The best moment is when you can say "finally, I'm done with that shit and can do what I like until the next patch". After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @CptAurellian.9537 said: > > > @timmyf.1490 said: > > > Y'all should just team up. You might even make some new friends in the process. > > That's it. Besides, the best thing about raids is killing a challenging boss for the first time. > > LOL no, you've not raided for long enough it seems. The best moment is when you can say "finally, I'm done with that kitten and can do what I like until the next patch". After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years. They are a trap if you let them trap you. The same can be said about MMORPGs in general. People can take anything too far, nothing new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @CptAurellian.9537 said: > > > @timmyf.1490 said: > > > Y'all should just team up. You might even make some new friends in the process. > > That's it. Besides, the best thing about raids is killing a challenging boss for the first time. > > LOL no, you've not raided for long enough it seems. The best moment is when you can say "finally, I'm done with that kitten and can do what I like until the next patch". After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years. The thing is... if they did not had me "trapped", I most likely would have quit the game. At some point, everything becomes a "why bother". You've done it all, time and again. There simply is no reason to replay it yet again. Raiding isn't quite the same for me, for two reasons. First, there's an actual challenge and an actual chance to fail. Perhaps it's just that me and my static are scrub enough so we can actually fail. It doesn't matter, it spices things up and keeps our interest. Second, I get to play with people I've come to know and like. We get to joke about each other's fails, do silly things and laugh about them. Frankly, I'd rather be trapped. It's much more fun than wandering around Tyria solo or joining pugs with players I will likely never meet again, our interaction limited to "hi", "thx for the run" and the occasional flame when somebody turns out to be pretty bad and somebody else turns out to be pretty short-tempered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @CptAurellian.9537 said: > > > @timmyf.1490 said: > > > Y'all should just team up. You might even make some new friends in the process. > > That's it. Besides, the best thing about raids is killing a challenging boss for the first time. > > LOL no, you've not raided for long enough it seems. The best moment is when you can say "finally, I'm done with that kitten and can do what I like until the next patch". After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years. How are raids psychological traps? Psychological traps are things like Skinner box rewards, which raids don't really have since you can buy all the skins you need with shards. There isn't even a fear of falling behind on gear and everyone running past you. Also what progression? Who is raiding every week that hasn't cleared all four wings now? A psychological trap are things like Loot Boxes like you're seeing in tons of games which are literally gambling. Black Lion Chests are better examples of psychological traps. But most of the gem store is far more fair than the Black Lion Chests and don't fall into psychological traps. More and more games are increasingly monetizing their game by making all items only available from random loot boxes, forcing you to gamble for things you don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyf.1490 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @mortrialus.3062 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years. > There isn't even a fear of falling behind on gear and everyone running past you. > > Also what progression? Who is raiding every week that hasn't cleared all four wings now? It's almost like the most vocal anti-raiding crowd has raided very little in GW2 and merely carried their negative opinions of progression raiding from other games here due to the shared use of the word "raid." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makai.3429 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Jahroots.6791 said: > > @mortrialus.3062 said: > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to. > > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this. > > You were going really well up until this point. It's needless hyperbole. > > There's players who are old. Some are disabled. Others have manky hardware and internet connections. Maybe all three. It's very tempting to dismiss every complaint as coming from a place of laziness, but in truth most people want to play at a level of difficulty that is challenging and/or engaging _for them_. > > It's hard to accept this when you've reached a certain level of skill, but for a lot of players just beating Bloomhunger on T3 is a phenomenal task. Raids are simply beyond them, and at the current level of difficulty, will always be. And I think PVE group content is simply too sparse to exclude so many. > > > Thank you for your compassion and understanding on this matter. It's sad how we can't enjoy new content in this game because the 1,000,000 APM, flawless rotation crowd that came with HoT doesn't want us to have equal footing; and even worse when they dictate to us what is easy and what isn't, then shame us for problems that aren't our fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makai.3429 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Sykper.6583 said: > > @Jahroots.6791 said: > > > @mortrialus.3062 said: > > > But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to. > > > > > > Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this. > > > > You were going really well up until this point. It's needless hyperbole. > > > > There's players who are old. Some are disabled. Others have manky hardware and internet connections. Maybe all three. It's very tempting to dismiss every complaint as coming from a place of laziness, but in truth most people want to play at a level of difficulty that is challenging and/or engaging _for them_. > > > > It's hard to accept this when you've reached a certain level of skill, but for a lot of players just beating Bloomhunger on T3 is a phenomenal task. Raids are simply beyond them, and at the current level of difficulty, will always be. And I think PVE group content is simply too sparse to exclude so many. > > > > > > > > Don't even start with the victimization game with 'old' and 'disabled' players. Even excluding the counter-point that Arenanet shouldn't need to cater to the 'least capable' players who struggle the hardest with GW2 simply leveling up, there are several instances of said players that overcome whatever ails them to clear the content. I don't even have to look that hard into Youtube to find a video of a Gamer playing CSGO competently with one hand since his other arm is paralyzed. > > The only thing stopping would-be raiders from raiding is willpower and patience. The willpower to keep trying encounters, and the patience to accept failure can happen, that a kill might not happen that day. It's not a victimization game: there are legitimate problems with this game that prevent disabled players from participating. Some could be fixed, such as enhancing visualization through sliders, or adding color choices to AoE death rings, but Anet refuses to budge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > LOL no, you've not raided for long enough it seems. The best moment is when you can say "finally, I'm done with that kitten and can do what I like until the next patch". After some time, raids stop to be fun and just turn into a weekly chore to keep up with the rest of your team. Nobody ever takes breaks because everyone is freaking out at the idea of falling behind in terms of progression/practice. Raids are a psychological trap with a strong grip, especially when you have a competitive mindset and a static group. Getting out of it was one of the best things that happened to me in the last years. Thanks for that ... interesting insight, but I guess 7 years of raiding in various MMOs during the last 12 years is actually long enough. As others have already pointed out, it's not raids, but MMOs as such which may become some kind of psychological trap. In the end, it's up to the individual whether you run into the trap or not. With regard to raids, I stand by my statement. If you have come to a point where getting out is the best thing, the basic problems are on a totally different level. And yes, I know that point, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 > @Makai.3429 said: > It's not a victimization game: there are legitimate problems with this game that prevent disabled players from participating. Some could be fixed, such as enhancing visualization through sliders, or adding color choices to AoE death rings, but Anet refuses to budge. To be honest I haven't seen a thread asking about those recently, I only vaguely remember them from ages ago. Perhaps if you made a new one, on these new forums, on the subject you could gather support. Tell Anet exactly what you want as far as changes like that are concerned and I'm sure you'll get lots of support. This isn't a thread about those kind of changes though as is clear in the OP and the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makai.3429 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Makai.3429 said: > > It's not a victimization game: there are legitimate problems with this game that prevent disabled players from participating. Some could be fixed, such as enhancing visualization through sliders, or adding color choices to AoE death rings, but Anet refuses to budge. > > To be honest I haven't seen a thread asking about those recently, I only vaguely remember them from ages ago. Perhaps if you made a new one, on these new forums, on the subject you could gather support. Tell Anet exactly what you want as far as changes like that are concerned and I'm sure you'll get lots of support. > This isn't a thread about those kind of changes though as is clear in the OP and the title. It's been a hot suggestion since beta five years ago, but stuff like the NPE and pre-specilaization trait system were more important, I guess. Sorry for derailing the thread, but I made a vow a long time ago to not allow ableism to go unchecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Makai.3429 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Makai.3429 said: > > > It's not a victimization game: there are legitimate problems with this game that prevent disabled players from participating. Some could be fixed, such as enhancing visualization through sliders, or adding color choices to AoE death rings, but Anet refuses to budge. > > > > To be honest I haven't seen a thread asking about those recently, I only vaguely remember them from ages ago. Perhaps if you made a new one, on these new forums, on the subject you could gather support. Tell Anet exactly what you want as far as changes like that are concerned and I'm sure you'll get lots of support. > > This isn't a thread about those kind of changes though as is clear in the OP and the title. > > It's been a hot suggestion since beta five years ago, but stuff like the NPE and pre-specilaization trait system were more important, I guess. Sorry for derailing the thread, but I made a vow a long time ago to not allow ableism to go unchecked. > Don't take it personally. You have to remember a) this is business and b) the developers have limited time and manpower. It's not a matter of discrimination, merely prioritization of available resources. You can't realistically expect that much attention given to these issues, as they concern a relatively small number of the player base. The devs simply choose to focus their efforts where they would affect as many players as possible. Which is only normal. Keep in mind most of their efforts benefit you as well - be it new cosmetic features, new story content added or whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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