A necro's suggestion for balancing scourge

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> These aren't good changes because they do not address the #1 problem with scourge which is that the instant cast times combined with no animations results in it requiring absolutely zero skill to play. The same issues also result in it being no fun to play against because you are getting hit by skills that cannot be reacted to.

>

> Scourge needs almost none of the nerfs you suggested. The only nerf it needs is:

>

> 1. Added a 1/2-second delay and animation effect to Sand shades before they strike

> 2. Added a 1-second cast time and animation to the Scourges F1 abilities

>

> That's it. That's all the class needs. They could even add some power damage to the shades to compensate.

>

> You can try to "balance" scourge all you want by tweaking the numbers, but until the spammy nature of the build is addressed scourge will continue to be seen as a textbook example of noob-pandering.

>

 

Scourge would still completely define the meta under your changes. While the lack of tells is certainly annoying, it's not what is making Scourge S tier, and it's not what is causing scourge to shutout hardcounter 3/4ths of the melee classes in the game. However putting a large animation delay would cause a lot of quality of life issues for the scourge itself without really affecting scourge's power level.

 

> @intox.6347 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > On a design level as long as boon corruption is scourge main theme in sPvP it will remain over powered. Reducing the rate of boon corruption is not going to solve much. Not to mention that this is nothing more than power creep to what reaper used to do anyway.

> > >

> > > Scourge in sPvP should focus on barrier/condi dps without boon corruption and possibly offensive support.

> >

> > The purpose of these changes was not to remove scourge from it's role, or to push scourge out of the meta.

> >

> > The purpose of these changes are to make Scourge less of a total melee shutout and to push it more towards a strategic role rather than a carpet bomb role.

>

> I just see balance from pvp where scourge is op, destroying pve, wvw options. Also i can call your balance only nerf, coz i dont see anything for exchange. You saw that anet cant do proper split... and each touch on necro is only more painfull.... look what they do to reaper ... its now only memory...

 

Of course my changes are primarily a nerf. Scourge's raw power level is way too high and is breaking both the sPvP meta and the WvW meta. Evven in PvE where scourge isn't meta, scourge still manages to completely outperform reaper. Scourge does not need a "exchange" it needs to be cut down.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Hitman.5829 said:

> To be honest the mesmers need to be nerfed more than the necros. As a melee warrior I find it easier to fight these condition spamming scourges than the perma evade, perma stun break mesmers. As a melee warrior you can't stun them to land your damage and you can hit them because they perma dodge/evade. In my opinion, scourges are fine the way thy are, but in groups is when they are OP. One way to nerf them is to reduce the number of targets they can hit from 5 to 3 or 2.

>

 

Well-played mesmers have pretty much always been difficult opponents for warriors, just like well-played thieves have always been difficult matchups for mesmers. Every build is going to have matchups that it's going to struggle against. Mirages in the current meta are certainly no slouches, but neither are they meta-defining in the way scourges are.

 

The problem with scourges is that they hard-counter a wide range of otherwise viable builds, and they're able to perform their hard-counter against everyone in a teamfight rather than having to pick one target at a time. This has essentially been turning the meta into one where you're either a scourge, a build that can deal with scourges, or a burden to your team (unless you're lucky enough to get an opposing team without scourges). Spellbreaker builds are among those that can cope with scourges, so I can see why a warrior-only player would see them as not being a problem, but in the bigger picture scourges are having a much greater impact than mirages (or anything else I've seen since PoF launched).

[Abimes.9726]

It seem to be good options to make scourge skill cap increase and like you mentioned it give a chance for mele classes vs scourge.

 

Another option would be to use a CURSED effect , where only cursed foes get affected by Sand shroud skills.

For exemple, Necro CURSE a foe by casting a punishment skill or sand shade F1 on the target.

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

Cast times and increased cooldowns, tie the F skills to life force build up...don't allow 60k damage per (some very small time interval) to be so spammable.

[Swagg.9236]

Suffice to say, you're doing nothing but trying to save face considering that Scourge's problem is that none of its trademark, ranged AoE attacks have any tells and all cast instantly.

[Crinn.7864]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

> The problem with scourges is that they hard-counter a wide range of otherwise viable builds, and they're able to perform their hard-counter against everyone in a teamfight rather than having to pick one target at a time. This has essentially been turning the meta into one where you're either a scourge, a build that can deal with scourges, or a burden to your team (unless you're lucky enough to get an opposing team without scourges). Spellbreaker builds are among those that can cope with scourges, so I can see why a warrior-only player would see them as not being a problem, but in the bigger picture scourges are having a much greater impact than mirages (or anything else I've seen since PoF launched).

 

This

[FOX.3582]

Or people can just wait off-point to let the scourge waste cooldowns, kill it fast and cap the point back. I don’t see a problem with scourge except for total donkeys who like to hug red aoe circles... (I don’t play that crap class btw).

[Volrath.1473]

Is it just me or the suggestions to "fix" scourge look more like buffs then nerfs?!....

[nekretaal.6485]

They are adding animations to the skills. You'll be able to know when the bubble is / is not safe. Balancing numbers is not necessary.

[Chaith.8256]

In addition to the OP:

 

Instead of proposed Sand Savant nerf,

 

- Shade skills' *effects to allies* are applied on a larger radius. (All enemy effects, including the Sand Shade remain on an 180radius.) Additionally, Desert Shroud instead of applying Torment will apply healing and barriers (still damages).

 

The barriers could proc Abrasive Grit (Might, condi remove) and the healing amount should be competitive.

 

More additional changes:

 

- Sand Shades no longer have constant red AoE circles.

- Added visual cue "spraying of sand" to Shade's auto attacks.

- Added .5s global CD to Shade skills to avoid piano playing.

- Added .5s delay on Shade auto attacks, *spawns the red circle before striking.*

[breno.5423]

Just remove boon conversion of all traits and utilitys, this is stupid. You receive 10+ types of condition in a second, no one can clean this many of conds so quickly, that means you will always stay with any damaging condition in the end (which deals 15k + of damage itself).

 

Beside it, condition durations must be reviewed. 10+ seconds of any condition is a ridiculous duration, principally because there are 13 kinds of condition in the game. Most moments i get like 20~30 seconds of cripple, weakness, etc. Weakness is the most problematic thing in the spvp. It nerfs like 80% of zerkers damage, and anyone apply 10+ seconds of weakness easily. Weakness should, at least, affect condition damage too, or just receive a duration redution for a maximum of 3 seconds (which is too many time in spvp). None debilitation/debuff conditions should be longer than 3 seconds of duration at spvp.

[brannigan.9831]

They have to fix the constant weakness on people as well. Its garbage quite frankly. Weakness is a very powerful condition and was pretty rare before this unbalanced elite was foisted on us.

[Rufo.3716]

I think if they nerf CC as a whole it would help most of the problems. It's the whole getting immobilized or stunned then getting bombed by the necros that hurt. If you can move away from the aoe effects it's not as bad. They should also try to turn the scourge into what it was originally intended to do, be support. Right now the closest thing the scourge has for support is blood magic trait line. If they nerf the dmg they need to majorly buff the support abilities to make them useful in pvp and pve.

[Crinn.7864]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> In addition to the OP:

>

> Instead of proposed Sand Savant nerf,

>

> - Shade skills' *effects to allies* are applied on a larger radius. (All enemy effects, including the Sand Shade remain on an 180radius.) Additionally, Desert Shroud instead of applying Torment will apply healing and barriers (still damages).

>

> The barriers could proc Abrasive Grit (Might, condi remove) and the healing amount should be competitive.

>

> More additional changes:

>

> - Sand Shades no longer have constant red AoE circles.

> - Added visual cue "spraying of sand" to Shade's auto attacks.

> - Added .5s global CD to Shade skills to avoid piano playing.

> - Added .5s delay on Shade auto attacks, *spawns the red circle before striking.*

 

Having the offensive and support components of the same skill operating at different ranges creates a lot of awkward gameplay/quality of life issues for the Scourge though.

[Rudra.6932]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> In addition to the OP:

>

> Instead of proposed Sand Savant nerf,

>

> - Shade skills' *effects to allies* are applied on a larger radius. (All enemy effects, including the Sand Shade remain on an 180radius.) Additionally, Desert Shroud instead of applying Torment will apply healing and barriers (still damages).

 

Do they currently have a system like that in game where a skill affects allies and enemies in different ranges? I can't recall one, so curious.

 

> - Added .5s global CD to Shade skills to avoid piano playing.

 

Don't think this will be a thing since nothing in GW2 has a global CD as far as I know. Once again, correct me if I am wrong.

 

Implementing new systems might be too much to ask from balance team seeing how much "balance" they have put in the game after path of fire release. Reducing the scourge radius (not the shade radius) in Sand Savant trait will instantly alleviate a lot of these problems.

 

> - Added .5s delay on Shade auto attacks, *spawns the red circle before striking.*

Absolutely agree with adding a small after cast delay for the shade strike (and by extention path of corruption trigger on F2 since it should corrupt boons for targets the shade attack hits) and no delay on the main effects aka condi conversion and barrier application.

 

 

[Chaith.8256]

> @Rudra.6932 said:

> > @Chaith.8256 said:

>

> Do they currently have a system like that in game where a skill affects allies and enemies in different ranges? I can't recall one, so curious.

>

> > - Added .5s global CD to Shade skills to avoid piano playing.

>

> Don't think this will be a thing since nothing in GW2 has a global CD as far as I know. Once again, correct me if I am wrong.

>

> Implementing new systems might be too much to ask from balance team seeing how much "balance" they have put in the game after path of fire release. Reducing the scourge radius (not the shade radius) in Sand Savant trait will instantly alleviate a lot of these problems.

>

> > - Added .5s delay on Shade auto attacks, *spawns the red circle before striking.*

> Absolutely agree with adding a small after cast delay for the shade strike (and by extention path of corruption trigger on F2 since it should corrupt boons for targets the shade attack hits) and no delay on the main effects aka condi conversion and barrier application.

>

>

 

Weaver attunements have a global cooldown, but as far as I know no skill has dual radius effects. It'd probably not be too hard for it to simultaneously fire one 180radius attack and one 300 radius effect for your allies though. It'd be cool to see two rings at once, kind of like a bullseye'. But that's just my concept

[Rudra.6932]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> > @Rudra.6932 said:

> > > @Chaith.8256 said:

> >

> > Do they currently have a system like that in game where a skill affects allies and enemies in different ranges? I can't recall one, so curious.

> >

> > > - Added .5s global CD to Shade skills to avoid piano playing.

> >

> > Don't think this will be a thing since nothing in GW2 has a global CD as far as I know. Once again, correct me if I am wrong.

> >

> > Implementing new systems might be too much to ask from balance team seeing how much "balance" they have put in the game after path of fire release. Reducing the scourge radius (not the shade radius) in Sand Savant trait will instantly alleviate a lot of these problems.

> >

> > > - Added .5s delay on Shade auto attacks, *spawns the red circle before striking.*

> > Absolutely agree with adding a small after cast delay for the shade strike (and by extention path of corruption trigger on F2 since it should corrupt boons for targets the shade attack hits) and no delay on the main effects aka condi conversion and barrier application.

> >

> >

>

> Weaver attunements have a global cooldown, but as far as I know no skill has dual radius effects. It'd probably not be too hard for it to simultaneously fire one 180radius attack and one 300 radius effect for your allies though. It'd be cool to see two rings at once, kind of like a bullseye'. But that's just my concept

 

Well, Weaver attunement swap is like weapon swap with some additional effect similar to Legend swap for revenants that allows both the classes to get access to a new set of skills. I don't think it is fair to compare the shade skills with that. A closer comparison can be done with Engi tool belt skills which can be activated one after the other.

I don't think adding a global cooldown will be good for the health of scourge class as it will make it unintuitively cumbersome to play. The after cast and reduced radius of impact is a much better idea for the balance team to pick up as it doesn't encroach upon scourge flavour while providing a significant boost to counter play.

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> You put more effort into these proposed changes then anet ever puts into balance unfortunately

 

Yeah. I don't ever see them implementing such sweeping changes to say the least.