11/28 Release Mesmer Axe Bug Fix

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

No offense, but objectively 25k max is mainly playable if you consider other players have lower skill/ability to maintain their rotation. Or you're running with a group who have less expectations.

 

Using yourself as example means little when people look at how far a build can go.

 

Sure mirage can be brought for Matthias, but we all know the reason why a raid group would bring mesmer to that boss. Also keep in mind mirage focus on single target and suffers a lot on adds and cleave, it's not wrong for people to expect a little more damage on boss but this build can only go as far as 25k.

[Nord.1492]

Someone in the necro forum had a good question about the balance team, are they monkeys or actually people? Can someone answer that? No no sorry, joke aside, thats really sad, i feel about it if somehting gets .... "fixed". Sorry for that mesmer fellows. #RipMirage

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

I'm surprised if someone say that on the board and didn't somehow get a warning for saying it. Joke or not as I've seen people got warned for even worse messages.

[Nord.1492]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> I'm surprised if someone say that on the board and didn't somehow get a warning for saying it. Joke or not as I've seen people got warned for even worse messages.

 

I did. :) Could be my second warning. Iam angry and not interested anymore. So if i post or not, they dont listen. For this reason i dont need rights to post here, so go on.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @Nord.1492 said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > I'm surprised if someone say that on the board and didn't somehow get a warning for saying it. Joke or not as I've seen people got warned for even worse messages.

>

> I did. :) Could be my second warning. Iam angry and not interested anymore. So if i post or not, they dont listen. For this reason i dont need rights to post here, so go on.

 

Trust me, there's like a lot of things I would say at times, but I've noticed a bit um... "high moderation" in little things that I've curbed a lot of what I want to say at times because of it.

Necro is one of those things and right now Mirage is another.

[zealex.9410]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Xyonon.3987 said:

> > Hey everyone - I'm [this guy](

"this guy") and I'll explain what seems to be confusing people here. :)

> >

> > ---

> >

> > **How it was:**

> >

> > The axe ambush **used to be able to hit a target 2 times**. By casting the axe ambush, 3 axes spawn and fly in 3 directions. While doing that they dealt damage on hit (piercing). After they've reached max range, they started to seek their nearest target and deal the same damage and conditions again. Since those 3 directions were widely spread, **the outer 2 axes often miss against small hitboxes**. You could work against that by positioning yourself inside the enemy hitbox but then the clones still missed.

> >

> > **Against a large hitbox, even the outer 2 axes hit the target**. So what that meant is against large each ambush hit 3 axes times 2 hits times 4 casters (3 clones + you). Against a small hitbox around 33% less. This lead to **~45k large hitbox dps**. Against a small hitbox you were **only able to get ~40k but only by placing the clones inside the target hitbox** aswell and never using axe #3 as this skill repositions the clones. So in raids this barely would have been possible...

> >

> > ---

> >

> > **How it is now:**

> >

> > They simply **removed the possibility for axes to hit twice** by removing the seeking part if a specific axe hit something. So axes spawn, deal damage, don't seek. Axes spawn, miss, seek. This basically means an **up to 50% damage nerf to the axe ambush** and clearly it's impact hasn't been tested good enough. So what happened is that the damage difference between large and small hitbox has been completely removed (which is a good thing!), but the damage has been reduced to values no longer viable for raids (which is a very bad and sad thing...).

> >

> > **The damage has been reduced from ~45k large / ~40k small to ~28k any hitbox**. 28k is utterly weak for a pure dps spec without any other support. Mirage is essentially the **same as a condi thief and should still be able to hit the ~34k on a golem** in my opinion. In the current state, the old phantasm mirage is now stronger than the clone build again. So back to boring old "set up 3 illus and wait" again. But even that build has been cut down to **nothing more than ~31k dps**.

> >

> > ---

> >

> > **TL;DR:** Mirage is basically dead for the time being. I'm sorry. I hope we'll get some love again ... in like 3 months or so. I suggest to try other professions for the time being. Currently Holosmith and Renegade are highly wanted for raids. I'm not quite sure what's bis against Matthias tho...

> >

> > ---

> >

> > Greez o/

>

> Thanks for your in depth explanation to everyone. Its a shame that this fix wasn't tested enough (or maybe it was and this is their idea of a high DPS mesmer build.....). I wonder what the best way to fix this would be? I imagine it is difficult to fix the ambush to work properly without hitting targets multiple times, which is why the current fix has dropped our DPS so heavily

 

The best way for them to fix is the one we got. They already said there will be like abalance patch down the road so there could be m8rage buffs comming with it.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @zealex.9410 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Xyonon.3987 said:

> > > Hey everyone - I'm [this guy](

"this guy") and I'll explain what seems to be confusing people here. :)

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > **How it was:**

> > >

> > > The axe ambush **used to be able to hit a target 2 times**. By casting the axe ambush, 3 axes spawn and fly in 3 directions. While doing that they dealt damage on hit (piercing). After they've reached max range, they started to seek their nearest target and deal the same damage and conditions again. Since those 3 directions were widely spread, **the outer 2 axes often miss against small hitboxes**. You could work against that by positioning yourself inside the enemy hitbox but then the clones still missed.

> > >

> > > **Against a large hitbox, even the outer 2 axes hit the target**. So what that meant is against large each ambush hit 3 axes times 2 hits times 4 casters (3 clones + you). Against a small hitbox around 33% less. This lead to **~45k large hitbox dps**. Against a small hitbox you were **only able to get ~40k but only by placing the clones inside the target hitbox** aswell and never using axe #3 as this skill repositions the clones. So in raids this barely would have been possible...

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > **How it is now:**

> > >

> > > They simply **removed the possibility for axes to hit twice** by removing the seeking part if a specific axe hit something. So axes spawn, deal damage, don't seek. Axes spawn, miss, seek. This basically means an **up to 50% damage nerf to the axe ambush** and clearly it's impact hasn't been tested good enough. So what happened is that the damage difference between large and small hitbox has been completely removed (which is a good thing!), but the damage has been reduced to values no longer viable for raids (which is a very bad and sad thing...).

> > >

> > > **The damage has been reduced from ~45k large / ~40k small to ~28k any hitbox**. 28k is utterly weak for a pure dps spec without any other support. Mirage is essentially the **same as a condi thief and should still be able to hit the ~34k on a golem** in my opinion. In the current state, the old phantasm mirage is now stronger than the clone build again. So back to boring old "set up 3 illus and wait" again. But even that build has been cut down to **nothing more than ~31k dps**.

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > **TL;DR:** Mirage is basically dead for the time being. I'm sorry. I hope we'll get some love again ... in like 3 months or so. I suggest to try other professions for the time being. Currently Holosmith and Renegade are highly wanted for raids. I'm not quite sure what's bis against Matthias tho...

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > Greez o/

> >

> > Thanks for your in depth explanation to everyone. Its a shame that this fix wasn't tested enough (or maybe it was and this is their idea of a high DPS mesmer build.....). I wonder what the best way to fix this would be? I imagine it is difficult to fix the ambush to work properly without hitting targets multiple times, which is why the current fix has dropped our DPS so heavily

>

> The best way for them to fix is the one we got. They already said there will be like abalance patch down the road so there could be m8rage buffs comming with it.

 

I heard those are done quarterly though, so... in 3 months?

[Asum.4960]

So Mirage went from completely broken DPS on the clone build to Raid viable DPS with the Phantasm Build and that is considered destroying Mesmers?

Guess some Mesmer players need to main Necro for a while for perspective.

 

Is it a shame that Clone Mirage is dead? Yes, absolutely.

But Mesmer still has a Phantasm Condi Mirage and Chrono as viable build options until the next balance patch, that's more variety than most other classes get.

 

Still, I'm hoping Anet looks at a way to bring clone Mirage back, just in a 32-34k DPS range, not freaking 42-45k, especially with how easy the rotation is.

I mean, come on, that had to be fixed.

[Veprovina.4876]

> @Asum.4960 said:

> So Mirage went from completely broken DPS on the clone build to Raid viable DPS with the Phantasm Build and that is considered destroying Mesmers?

> Guess some Mesmer players need to play Necro for a while for perspective.

>

> Is it a shame that Clone Mirage is dead? Yes, absolutely.

> But Mesmer still has a Phantasm Condi Mirage and Chrono as viable build options until the next balance patch, that's more variety than most other classes get.

>

> Still, I'm hoping Anet looks at a way to bring clone Mirage back, just in a 32-34k DPS range, not freaking 42-45k, especially with how incredibly easy the rotation is.

> I mean, come on, that had to be fixed.

 

It's kinda not about that at all. Mesmers have this unique thing called shatters and not a single build used shattering up until mirage clone builds. Core mesmer phantasm build was boring, chrono phantasm build is annoying and mirage phantasm build is again... Boring. Clone build made mesmer exciting for people.

 

And sure, if it had a bug, fix it, but what most people don't understand and complain about is - why even start fixing the bug if you're not going to balance it out to compensate for the loss?

 

I'm sure somewhere down the line they'll do some balance changes to mesmers again probably, and if not, Mirage will always be an ok WvW roaming build.

 

It's like, Anet has no idea what to do with mesmers.

Here's a tip Anet. Make shatters great again! Let us use our damn core mechanic. Summoning phantasms and then autoattacking for the rest of the fight is boring and uninspired. Yes it works, but that's not an illusion duelist type thing you made mesmers out to be. That's a summoner. We don't want that.

[Asum.4960]

> @Veprovina.4876 said:

> It's like, Anet has no idea what to do with mesmers.

 

Alright, I get that frustration.

I guess as an ex Necro main I'm just to used to that kind of disappointment by now and why I have given up on the idea of a main and class identity by now.

 

I'm sorry for you loss dear Mesmer's, but at least you have something to fall back on for now.

 

I actually just made and geared a condi Mesmer today and actually quite enjoy it, but that's obviously different to players who have been playing with that playstyle for years, and finally had an alternative, which was then promptly taken away.

 

But still, that fix had to happen asap and an alternative in balance just wasn't ready yet.

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

> No offense, but objectively 25k max is mainly playable if you consider other players have lower skill/ability to maintain their rotation. Or you're running with a group who have less expectations.

 

OR, it's a very good niche build that's playable but suboptimal outside of its niche. I'd take it to Cairn as well, play it half-asleep drinking coffee with one hand and never fail a mechanic.

 

> @NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

> Using yourself as example means little when people look at how far a build can go.

 

When talking about potential, you can't expect this level of reliability and ease of play to be a top performer. Its power made it too versatile, because it was good just about everywhere, with very few exceptions, and suffered a lot less from poor support than just about any other dps build. The devs made the reasonable thing and reduced its power. Now it's a good niche build and a decent low-effort, low-risk build. Much like staff DD for instance. These builds might not be particularly good for speed running and min-maxed groups, but they are really awesome for players just starting the high-end PvE. It's good for the health of the game to have builds like that.

[zakuruchi.4086]

So, devs, especially Irenio. Can we get a confirmation from Devs whether the non-seeking (And sometimes not spawning) axes are a bug or not? Also, whether your intention is really to put the DPS as low as it is? Because at the moment it's just a bit too low compared to what other classes have.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

As I said, the group has to have less expectations considering you're bringing suboptimal build. Keep in mind an experienced raid would have expected each dps to perform their best and having similar skills with other dps. It isn't wrong to expect dps joined has mastered their class and confident enough for end game content. Eg. an dps confident enough to bring weaver shouldn't mess up their rotation while accept the risk of pulling off on fragile build. If group support falls behind the whole group dps suffers and it will be quite clear, if say in our case, to the point where mesmer overtaken it.

 

And in inexperienced groups...well let's say you have to debate your way out with arcdps proof or whatnot whenever whole group didn't meet dps checkmarks.

 

I agree low risk low reward build is needed given current raid mentality. But Mesmer already have phantasm build covering that (which BTW drop to 29-31k follow axe fix) so it needs something else that can at least meet 34k for it to not come under fire whenever dps is debated. There are groups that kick mirage dps and DD staff on sight and arguing "suboptimal is fine for beginner/less ideal buff" on forum is not going to change that.