More “paths” to legendary gear...

[Lunarlife.5128]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> I guess it's just me, but LW always came across as it's own thing, like PS, and what have you. LW being more solo Instance based content, where Open World was.. well.. Open World.

>

>

>

 

The elements of Aurora are based on the open world, JP, collections, and hearts. In fact, it's the exact same content as nonLS open world.

 

None of it is "instanced" as far as I know. There are elements that as far as I'm aware only require you to unlock the zone.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Seera.5916 said:

> Those rewards can indeed be skins. They're the only things that every player can easily see (minis are in a way skins). And yes, there should be a mixture of exclusive items: titles, jewelry, aura's, skins, ascended gear, legendary gear, etc.

 

Again though, if they are skins, then you end up with situations where people want those skins, but don't want to do the content attached, and who benefits from that? That's not a rhetorical question, btw, seriously, *who would benefit?*

 

It's better that if you have three groups, " A. people who care about prestige," "B. people who care about having a specific skin," and "C. people who want both," can ALL be made happy, by the A and C people getting some signifier of prestige, **and** B and C people getting the skins they want.

 

>You can't have it both ways, Ohoni. You can't claim that things can't be locked due to "I don't like X" and then go things can be locked to specific maps even if people don't like those maps.

 

Again, my solution would be to not "lock" them, but to disincentive them. Make is so that if you *insist* on farming for something on a specific map, you can, but it will be a brutally inefficient process, to the point that nobody *just* "trying to be lazy" would ever bother with it.

 

>To me the rational place to stop is right where they are at right now based on how each mode is set up. It's completely rational to lock skins behind certain modes.

 

How does your system serve players who want the raid skin, but have no interest in raiding? Explain how they are meant to get a happy ending in the current situation? By most accounts, there are more such players than there are people who raid.

 

>Until they put in some way to measure skill and dedication (like a reward track, but not necessarily a reward track), then any legendary armor or weapon skin that is solely obtainable through open world PvE, should be functionality only - no special auras or effects.

 

I'm all in favor of them adding a PvE reward track, but that in no way indicates any degree of skill or dedication. Hell, I haven't even entered PvP in about a year, but I clear out "PvP Rewards daily" every time it comes up, and have progressed at least 1-2 tracks worth, just by popping a couple PvP reward potions I have from the two stacks I accumulated at one point.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't want Legendary armor to directly drop off mobs or anything, but I've long favored better "prestige currency" options, similar to various map currencies already in the game, and perhaps tradable with those currencies, but exchangeable for bigger and better things.

 

Like right now there's unbound magic and volatile magic, and they can't be traded. What if you could trade them 2:1 or 5:1 for the other type, so that farming a LWs3 map would never be the *best* way to get volatile magic, but if you really loved those maps, you still could. Or what if you could trade Bloodstone Rubies for Petrified Wood at some lossy exchange rate? And what if there was a store that would carry necessary components for Legendary items, and you could purchase them using varying amounts of account-bound currencies. some would have more value than others, based on how efficiently they can be collected, and they could track which ones are most often turned in and see if there's a reason why that doesn't line up with their expectations, but it would allow players to do what content they want, while meaningfully progressing goals that are currently off the table.

 

 

 

 

[Seera.5916]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > Those rewards can indeed be skins. They're the only things that every player can easily see (minis are in a way skins). And yes, there should be a mixture of exclusive items: titles, jewelry, aura's, skins, ascended gear, legendary gear, etc.

>

> Again though, if they are skins, then you end up with situations where people want those skins, but don't want to do the content attached, and who benefits from that? That's not a rhetorical question, btw, seriously, *who would benefit?*

>

> It's better that if you have three groups, " A. people who care about prestige," "B. people who care about having a specific skin," and "C. people who want both," can ALL be made happy, by the A and C people getting some signifier of prestige, **and** B and C people getting the skins they want.

>

> >You can't have it both ways, Ohoni. You can't claim that things can't be locked due to "I don't like X" and then go things can be locked to specific maps even if people don't like those maps.

>

> Again, my solution would be to not "lock" them, but to disincentive them. Make is so that if you *insist* on farming for something on a specific map, you can, but it will be a brutally inefficient process, to the point that nobody *just* "trying to be lazy" would ever bother with it.

>

> >To me the rational place to stop is right where they are at right now based on how each mode is set up. It's completely rational to lock skins behind certain modes.

>

> How does your system serve players who want the raid skin, but have no interest in raiding? Explain how they are meant to get a happy ending in the current situation? By most accounts, there are more such players than there are people who raid.

>

> >Until they put in some way to measure skill and dedication (like a reward track, but not necessarily a reward track), then any legendary armor or weapon skin that is solely obtainable through open world PvE, should be functionality only - no special auras or effects.

>

> I'm all in favor of them adding a PvE reward track, but that in no way indicates any degree of skill or dedication. Hell, I haven't even entered PvP in about a year, but I clear out "PvP Rewards daily" every time it comes up, and have progressed at least 1-2 tracks worth, just by popping a couple PvP reward potions I have from the two stacks I accumulated at one point.

>

> Like I said, I wouldn't want Legendary armor to directly drop off mobs or anything, but I've long favored better "prestige currency" options, similar to various map currencies already in the game, and perhaps tradable with those currencies, but exchangeable for bigger and better things.

>

> Like right now there's unbound magic and volatile magic, and they can't be traded. What if you could trade them 2:1 or 5:1 for the other type, so that farming a LWs3 map would never be the *best* way to get volatile magic, but if you really loved those maps, you still could. Or what if you could trade Bloodstone Rubies for Petrified Wood at some lossy exchange rate? And what if there was a store that would carry necessary components for Legendary items, and you could purchase them using varying amounts of account-bound currencies. some would have more value than others, based on how efficiently they can be collected, and they could track which ones are most often turned in and see if there's a reason why that doesn't line up with their expectations, but it would allow players to do what content they want, while meaningfully progressing goals that are currently off the table.

>

>

>

>

 

The players that don't want to raid but want those skins to me don't really want those skins all that much. Because if they liked the skins enough, they would find some way to get those skins through one of the following:

 

* Gutting through and learning raids enough to get into most PUG groups and raiding long enough to get the skin they want

* Farming the gold to buy enough raids to get the skin they want

* Find friends or guild members willing to carry them for free through the raid enough times to get the skin they want

 

And this is who it primarily benefits: ANet. It gets players to try content they might not otherwise try. And if the player likes what they try, they will probably stay playing the game longer. And the longer they play the game the more gems they are likely to buy with real money and the more likely they are to buy the next expansion pack. ANet's job is to get players to play longer. If you know of a successful MMO that has all skins available in all modes, you should probably show it as an example to prove to ANet that that practice is a viable one to get players to keep playing the game for long periods of time.

 

There is nothing you can say that will get me to change my mind on exclusive skins.

 

And this is someone who doesn't like WvW but has decided she wants to make another legendary and will have to play WvW to get another Gift of Battle. And I'm perfectly fine with having to gut through WvW enough to get the Gift of Battle. And I'm going for a generation 1 legendary which I could bypass it all together to get it off of the TP. But I don't fee like they should have ever been sell-able in the first place, so I'm not going to buy it off of the trading post.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Seera.5916 said:

>The players that don't want to raid but want those skins to me don't really want those skins all that much.

 

They don't want them *enough* to spend hundreds of hours doing content that they do not enjoy, and **nobody should be asking them to.**

 

There is no benefit to them being there, for anyone.

 

So the question is, how to get them what they want (the skins), *without* asking them do engage in content that they do not enjoy and that will benefit no one.

 

You answer seems to be "i do not care about those players," but ANet should, because they are paying customers to their game.

 

>And this is who it primarily benefits: ANet. It gets players to try content they might not otherwise try.

 

No.

 

That needs to stop.

 

People need to stop EVER saying that, because it's NEVER been true.

 

Would it get people to "try content they might not otherwise try?" Maybe, but is it the ONLY way to accomplish that? Or even the *best* way to accomplish that? **NO,** it *never* has been.

 

You don't lock a reward behind hundreds of hours of gameplay to get people to *try* content that they might actually enjoy. If they don't think they'll enjoy it, then they just won't bother even trying, since they know they'll never spend those hundreds of hours to actually get it. Or even worse, they do try, and they *do* hate it, and spend hundreds of hours there anyways, hating every second of it, and accomplishing at best a Pyrrhic victory when they get that thing they wanted.

 

If you want players to "try content they might not otherwise try," then you don't reward them for spending hundreds of hours doing it, you reward them for spending like TWO hours doing it, maybe less. You reward them for getting in there, giving it an honest try, and then allowing them to decide for themselves whether they *enjoyed* the time they spent on it. You make the raids the *most efficient* way to fully unlock the Envoy armor, so that if they did enjoy their experience then they would have every reason to stick around and finish out the experience, but you do offer alternatives, so if they definitely didn't enjoy their time there, they can do something else instead without abandoning the goal entirely.

 

>ANet's job is to get players to play longer.

 

And you accomplish that by rewarding them for doing the things *they* enjoy doing, not the things *you* think they *should* be doing. If you drive them away from the activities they want to do, then it only leads to them beccoming disgruntled and burnt out. This is especially an issue in a F2P game, where the goal is not *just* to "keep them playing,* as it would be in a sub game where it doesn't matter what they think so long as they don't cancel their sub, but this is a game that relies on the kindness of strangers, you want players to not only be playing, but also be *happy* enough that they *want* to support the game via purely optional microtransactions.

 

>If you know of a successful MMO that has all skins available in all modes, you should probably show it as an example to prove to ANet that that practice is a viable one to get players to keep playing the game for long periods of time.

 

GW2 has a pretty unique business model going on, not to mention wardrobe system. I don't know that I can find an example of a game like you describe that has been successful, but I can't think of one like it that's failed either, so that indicates nothing.

 

>There is nothing you can say that will get me to change my mind on exclusive skins.

 

Ok.

 

>And this is someone who doesn't like WvW but has decided she wants to make another legendary and will have to play WvW to get another Gift of Battle. And I'm perfectly fine with having to gut through WvW enough to get the Gift of Battle.

 

Ok, but you understand that gutting through WvW for a Gift of Battle is something much simpler than gutting through raids for Envoy armor, right? It's not exactly a 1:1 comparison there.

 

>And I'm going for a generation 1 legendary which I could bypass it all together to get it off of the TP. But I don't fee like they should have ever been sell-able in the first place, so I'm not going to buy it off of the trading post.

 

And that's your choice, but at least the *option* is available to those who would choose differently than you, and options are good.

[Seera.5916]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> >The players that don't want to raid but want those skins to me don't really want those skins all that much.

>

> They don't want them *enough* to spend hundreds of hours doing content that they do not enjoy, and **nobody should be asking them to.**

>

> There is no benefit to them being there, for anyone.

>

> So the question is, how to get them what they want (the skins), *without* asking them do engage in content that they do not enjoy and that will benefit no one.

>

> You answer seems to be "i do not care about those players," but ANet should, because they are paying customers to their game.

>

> >And this is who it primarily benefits: ANet. It gets players to try content they might not otherwise try.

>

> No.

>

> That needs to stop.

>

> People need to stop EVER saying that, because it's NEVER been true.

>

> Would it get people to "try content they might not otherwise try?" Maybe, but is it the ONLY way to accomplish that? Or even the *best* way to accomplish that? **NO,** it *never* has been.

>

> You don't lock a reward behind hundreds of hours of gameplay to get people to *try* content that they might actually enjoy. If they don't think they'll enjoy it, then they just won't bother even trying, since they know they'll never spend those hundreds of hours to actually get it. Or even worse, they do try, and they *do* hate it, and spend hundreds of hours there anyways, hating every second of it, and accomplishing at best a Pyrrhic victory when they get that thing they wanted.

>

> If you want players to "try content they might not otherwise try," then you don't reward them for spending hundreds of hours doing it, you reward them for spending like TWO hours doing it, maybe less. You reward them for getting in there, giving it an honest try, and then allowing them to decide for themselves whether they *enjoyed* the time they spent on it. You make the raids the *most efficient* way to fully unlock the Envoy armor, so that if they did enjoy their experience then they would have every reason to stick around and finish out the experience, but you do offer alternatives, so if they definitely didn't enjoy their time there, they can do something else instead without abandoning the goal entirely.

>

> >ANet's job is to get players to play longer.

>

> And you accomplish that by rewarding them for doing the things *they* enjoy doing, not the things *you* think they *should* be doing. If you drive them away from the activities they want to do, then it only leads to them beccoming disgruntled and burnt out. This is especially an issue in a F2P game, where the goal is not *just* to "keep them playing,* as it would be in a sub game where it doesn't matter what they think so long as they don't cancel their sub, but this is a game that relies on the kindness of strangers, you want players to not only be playing, but also be *happy* enough that they *want* to support the game via purely optional microtransactions.

>

> >If you know of a successful MMO that has all skins available in all modes, you should probably show it as an example to prove to ANet that that practice is a viable one to get players to keep playing the game for long periods of time.

>

> GW2 has a pretty unique business model going on, not to mention wardrobe system. I don't know that I can find an example of a game like you describe that has been successful, but I can't think of one like it that's failed either, so that indicates nothing.

>

> >There is nothing you can say that will get me to change my mind on exclusive skins.

>

> Ok.

>

> >And this is someone who doesn't like WvW but has decided she wants to make another legendary and will have to play WvW to get another Gift of Battle. And I'm perfectly fine with having to gut through WvW enough to get the Gift of Battle.

>

> Ok, but you understand that gutting through WvW for a Gift of Battle is something much simpler than gutting through raids for Envoy armor, right? It's not exactly a 1:1 comparison there.

>

> >And I'm going for a generation 1 legendary which I could bypass it all together to get it off of the TP. But I don't fee like they should have ever been sell-able in the first place, so I'm not going to buy it off of the trading post.

>

> And that's your choice, but at least the *option* is available to those who would choose differently than you, and options are good.

 

I really highly doubt it's hundreds of hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary armor skins. So how about you stop with the hyperboles. They hurt your argument because it doesn't represent the real numbers.

 

And you seem to have missed that there are ways they can through the raiding without actually participating in the raid: buying raids and being carried through them. That's obviously more on the side of dedication than skill at the game (but it does show skill at knowing their limitations and how much they can tolerate trying to do things beyond their limations).

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Seera.5916 said:

>I really highly doubt it's hundreds of hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary armor skins. So how about you stop with the hyperboles. They hurt your argument because it doesn't represent the real numbers.

 

It's zero hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary skins, since there aren't any and you wouldn't have to raid for them if there were, but to get the *raiding* skins, yeah, multiple hundreds of hours seems reasonable to get all the required ingredients, especially if you're actually doing it yourself and not being carried. If any raider wants to dispute that with a reasonable claim that they spent a lot less time than that, my ears are open. In either case, can we agree that if someone REALLY dislikes raiding, that they would likely classify the existing amount as "more than I would prefer?"

 

> And you seem to have missed that there are ways they can through the raiding without actually participating in the raid: buying raids and being carried through them.

 

No. Getting carried in any way is not actually participating. It's like saying that AFK bot farming is a legitimate way to earn something, or that playing PvP but basically staying AFK in base while the rest of the team wins the match is a legitimate way of earning The Ascension.

 

>That's obviously more on the side of dedication than skill at the game (but it does show skill at knowing their limitations and how much they can tolerate trying to do things beyond their limations).

 

It has nothing to do with dedication either. By supporting such methods you delegitimize ANY arguments you might make about Legendary items actually being an "earned" result. At that point there is absolutely no highground between your position and having them being common drops off moas in Queensdale.

[Seera.5916]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> >I really highly doubt it's hundreds of hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary armor skins. So how about you stop with the hyperboles. They hurt your argument because it doesn't represent the real numbers.

>

> It's zero hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary skins, since there aren't any and you wouldn't have to raid for them if there were, but to get the *raiding* skins, yeah, multiple hundreds of hours seems reasonable to get all the required ingredients, especially if you're actually doing it yourself and not being carried. If any raider wants to dispute that with a reasonable claim that they spent a lot less time than that, my ears are open. In either case, can we agree that if someone REALLY dislikes raiding, that they would likely classify the existing amount as "more than I would prefer?"

>

> > And you seem to have missed that there are ways they can through the raiding without actually participating in the raid: buying raids and being carried through them.

>

> No. Getting carried in any way is not actually participating. It's like saying that AFK bot farming is a legitimate way to earn something, or that playing PvP but basically staying AFK in base while the rest of the team wins the match is a legitimate way of earning The Ascension.

>

> >That's obviously more on the side of dedication than skill at the game (but it does show skill at knowing their limitations and how much they can tolerate trying to do things beyond their limations).

>

> It has nothing to do with dedication either. By supporting such methods you delegitimize ANY arguments you might make about Legendary items actually being an "earned" result. At that point there is absolutely no highground between your position and having them being common drops off moas in Queensdale.

 

Raiding is PvE no matter how much you try to argue that it isn't. So stop treating as if it's not. Because it is. And the raiding portion is not hundreds of hours. Because your argument is centered around who don't like raiding. So just argue that part of the armor that is tied to raids, not all of it. Because I bet I can get all but the things that require raid currency without stepping one foot into a raid.

 

You can't compare something that's allowed in the games rules (buying raids and being carried through raids) to things that are against the rules (no AFK bot farming and no being AFK in PvP). It invalidates your argument.

 

It doesn't invalidate my argument to say that people can earn the rewards through buying raids and being carried through them. It would take dedication to earn the gold required to buy enough raids (or to buy the gems to convert to gold) and dedication to some friends and/or guild members to be carried through enough times.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Seera.5916 said:

> Raiding is PvE no matter how much you try to argue that it isn't. So stop treating as if it's not. Because it is. And the raiding portion is not hundreds of hours. Because your argument is centered around who don't like raiding. So just argue that part of the armor that is tied to raids, not all of it. Because I bet I can get all but the things that require raid currency without stepping one foot into a raid.

 

How? Where are you farming LI?

 

>You can't compare something that's allowed in the games rules (buying raids and being carried through raids) to things that are against the rules (no AFK bot farming and no being AFK in PvP). It invalidates your argument.

 

Uh. . . huh. . .

 

>It doesn't invalidate my argument to say that people can earn the rewards through buying raids and being carried through them. It would take dedication to earn the gold required to buy enough raids (or to buy the gems to convert to gold) and dedication to some friends and/or guild members to be carried through enough times.

 

Uh. . . nooope. Sorry, I can't even pretend that you're making sense on this one. It's like that Wallstreet "Greed is good" speech.

[Seera.5916]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > Raiding is PvE no matter how much you try to argue that it isn't. So stop treating as if it's not. Because it is. And the raiding portion is not hundreds of hours. Because your argument is centered around who don't like raiding. So just argue that part of the armor that is tied to raids, not all of it. Because I bet I can get all but the things that require raid currency without stepping one foot into a raid.

>

> How? Where are you farming LI?

>

> >You can't compare something that's allowed in the games rules (buying raids and being carried through raids) to things that are against the rules (no AFK bot farming and no being AFK in PvP). It invalidates your argument.

>

> Uh. . . huh. . .

>

> >It doesn't invalidate my argument to say that people can earn the rewards through buying raids and being carried through them. It would take dedication to earn the gold required to buy enough raids (or to buy the gems to convert to gold) and dedication to some friends and/or guild members to be carried through enough times.

>

> Uh. . . nooope. Sorry, I can't even pretend that you're making sense on this one. It's like that Wallstreet "Greed is good" speech.

 

Read what I said next time.

 

I said I can get everything BUT what requires raid currency without stepping foot into a raid.

 

Please go look at the Wiki for legendary armor to see what it actually requires before saying that it takes hundreds of hours of raiding.

 

I could argue that you're also saying that greed is good. You want all the skins. And you want them so badly for as little cost as possible (cost being anything you wouldn't otherwise normally do - in this case play any part of the game you don't want), that you're wanting to destroy the game to do so. And I do honestly believe that what you want would destroy the game. Because then where's the item that you can easily show other players that "I play X mode" or "I'm so dedicated to this game that I was willing to spend $25 plus on a single skin". Armor skins can be mixed or matched so the player that plays all modes can mix and match the armors and mini's. You can't mix and match titles and have more than one show at once. And most players want something they can show off. Even if they claim they don't.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Seera.5916 said:

> I said I can get everything BUT what requires raid currency without stepping foot into a raid.

 

Ah, it was an odd phrasing. Anyway, sure, you might be able to get the other stuff outside of raiding, but you still have to spend the time raiding to get the raiding stuff. The raiding stuff is the issue, they should have options to earn that stuff elsewhere too, so you don't have to even enter a raid, or at most spend a couple hours there and get through maybe one boss fight, and then you can be out of there and on to enjoying the game.

 

>Please go look at the Wiki for legendary armor to see what it actually requires before saying that it takes hundreds of hours of raiding.

 

Again, I'm waiting to hear what a raider has to say about how little time it took him to get his Legendary armor.

 

>I could argue that you're also saying that greed is good. You want all the skins.

 

Context, I wasn't arguing against greed, I was comparing your comments to a soliloquy from a movie. I was basically saying that I found your arguments so ideologically incompatible with mine as to have no basis for discussion. You were basically saying "your way of making things easier is Wrong, but my way of making things easier is Right." I'm sorry, I just can't accept the idea that paying people to carry you should be championed when asking for methods where a player can *carry himself* to the goal should be demonized.

 

> Because then where's the item that you can easily show other players that "I play X mode" or "I'm so dedicated to this game that I was willing to spend $25 plus on a single skin".

 

First, why should anyone *want* to do that? That sounds like a rather awful person, really. I would certainly not want to encourage that sort of thing.

 

Second, you can use all sorts of other things for that, titles, nametag flairs, handheld trophies, etc. No reason it should have to be skins.

 

>Armor skins can be mixed or matched so the player that plays all modes can mix and match the armors and mini's. You can't mix and match titles and have more than one show at once.

 

This is true at the moment, although they can have options for that as well. You could display multiple nametag flairs, for example, or they could make combined rewards, where if you "get raid armor" you get one trophy, if you "get The Ascension" you get another trophy, if you combine the two you could get a third trophy that indicates you did both.

 

Again, it comes down to "why should a player who cares that other players be able to see that he's done a lot of things matter more than a player who just wants a certain skin because he likes the way it looks?"

[Miellyn.6847]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > I said I can get everything BUT what requires raid currency without stepping foot into a raid.

>

> Ah, it was an odd phrasing. Anyway, sure, you might be able to get the other stuff outside of raiding, but you still have to spend the time raiding to get the raiding stuff. The raiding stuff is the issue, they should have options to earn that stuff elsewhere too, so you don't have to even enter a raid, or at most spend a couple hours there and get through maybe one boss fight, and then you can be out of there and on to enjoying the game.

>

> >Please go look at the Wiki for legendary armor to see what it actually requires before saying that it takes hundreds of hours of raiding.

>

> Again, I'm waiting to hear what a raider has to say about how little time it took him to get his Legendary armor.

>

> >I could argue that you're also saying that greed is good. You want all the skins.

>

> Context, I wasn't arguing against greed, I was comparing your comments to a soliloquy from a movie. I was basically saying that I found your arguments so ideologically incompatible with mine as to have no basis for discussion. You were basically saying "your way of making things easier is Wrong, but my way of making things easier is Right." I'm sorry, I just can't accept the idea that paying people to carry you should be championed when asking for methods where a player can *carry himself* to the goal should be demonized.

>

> > Because then where's the item that you can easily show other players that "I play X mode" or "I'm so dedicated to this game that I was willing to spend $25 plus on a single skin".

>

> First, why should anyone *want* to do that? That sounds like a rather awful person, really. I would certainly not want to encourage that sort of thing.

>

> Second, you can use all sorts of other things for that, titles, nametag flairs, handheld trophies, etc. No reason it should have to be skins.

>

> >Armor skins can be mixed or matched so the player that plays all modes can mix and match the armors and mini's. You can't mix and match titles and have more than one show at once.

>

> This is true at the moment, although they can have options for that as well. You could display multiple nametag flairs, for example, or they could make combined rewards, where if you "get raid armor" you get one trophy, if you "get The Ascension" you get another trophy, if you combine the two you could get a third trophy that indicates you did both.

>

> Again, it comes down to "why should a player who cares that other players be able to see that he's done a lot of things matter more than a player who just wants a certain skin because he likes the way it looks?"

 

You won't find a clear answer how long it took to get the armor. I started when raids were released and the armor wasn't ready until May this year. So technically it took around 1.5 years.

But the Legendary Insights don't take hundreds of hours. If you start with a experienced group that clears wing 1-4 in around 2.5h each week it takes 29h over 12 weeks for the first set. The collection almost finishes itself during that time. Other sets need double the time.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> If it’s open world then it better be a time-gated grindfest so that people have to put in a tremendous amount of effort towards it.

 

Yes, because heaven forbid that people should be able to have FUN in games, right?

[Supz.9836]

Completely agree OP /signed

[Tails.9372]

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> Thought about it a bit more. Didn't we get an openworld legendary around 6 months ago? Called. Aurora?

Not really, it's more of a general thing rather than an OW PvM legendary.

 

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> The elements of Aurora are based on the open world, JP, collections, and hearts. In fact, it's the exact same content as nonLS open world.

JP and the majority of the achievements have nothing to do with OW PvM, you also have to play WvW and are supposed to play sPvP but I guess you can skip the sPvP part.

 

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> None of it is "instanced" as far as I know. There are elements that as far as I'm aware only require you to unlock the zone.

You need to complete story achievements.

 

[Cobrakon.3108]

Every mode can be easily gated by skill except maybe WvW. I don't think it should be a grind but instead let the difficulty be the determining factor.

Would be great if a harder fractal level offered legendary gear. Why should the bigger group always get the best gear? IMO raids are more of a social and dedication thing and less of a skill thing. Its just tedious. Make some high skill paths to legendaries and we will be golden.

[maddoctor.2738]

Yeah, adding a way to get G1 Legendary Weapons with Legendary Insights would be great.

[nekretaal.6485]

Stop saying that WvW and Pvp allow players to craft legendary armor.

 

The armor they can craft doesn't have a unique look and doesn't advance the "legendary armor" achievement. According to the achievements, this pvp and WvW armor doesn't count as legendary.

 

It's just stat swappable armor. There is nothing legendary about it.

[Lunarlife.5128]

> @Tails.9372 said:

> Not really, it's more of a general thing rather than an OW PvM legendary.

So, an OW PvM legendary would be... Open World Bosses, JP's, and... a questline?

> JP and the majority of the achievements have nothing to do with OW PvM, you also have to play WvW and are supposed to play sPvP but I guess you can skip the sPvP part.

Pretty sure every legendary requires you to play WvW and sPvP... That's a completely different topic.

> You need to complete story achievements.

Aw, yeah. That's right. You do have to complete the story achieves which requires instance content. I would say though that there are some achieves you can skip in instance content if you want to focus on Open World and the instance achievements are probably some of the easiest achievements in getting Aurora.

 

> @nekretaal.6485 said:

> Stop saying that WvW and Pvp allow players to craft legendary armor.

>

> The armor they can craft doesn't have a unique look and doesn't advance the "legendary armor" achievement. According to the achievements, this pvp and WvW armor doesn't count as legendary.

>

> It's just stat swappable armor. There is nothing legendary about it.

There are multiple quotes about people being happy with just having legendary gear without new skins. In fact, higher level sPvP gear & WvW ranked gear are more legendary than PvE legendary armor because they do have unique skins & require a lot more at times.

According to achievements WvW and sPvP gear don't count as that collection.

 

> @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> Every mode can be easily gated by skill except maybe WvW. I don't think it should be a grind but instead let the difficulty be the determining factor.

> Would be great if a harder fractal level offered legendary gear. Why should the bigger group always get the best gear? IMO raids are more of a social and dedication thing and less of a skill thing. Its just tedious. Make some high skill paths to legendaries and we will be golden.

 

There is no skill gate on the WvW. It's just time & gold.

Fractals should probably have legendary gear routes granted higher level fractals that aren't accessible to everyone usually isn't a good idea because that just means that everyone has to be able to do them or people will be.... Very unhappy since it's not a "raid" where there are supposed to be, at the end, skill limits.

Bigger group has nothing to do with getting the best gear. You can pug WvW, PvE, and sPvP. I actually find it slower to get legendary WvW gear when running with a guild although I do love my guildies and they're awesome! PvE I have yet to get a guild kill on any boss. I have 18 LI at this point & over 25 kills (Doing the same boss over and over and over to get at the mechanics). Raids are more skill than social but thankfully most of the groups I've been in have been social. Dedication is more based on the fact that you have to do it a lot to get good at it. Skill is required to raid unless you're playing something easy, getting carried, etc. Most people I know take 25-50 wipes on Vale Guardian to get an idea of how the fight actually goes. That usually works out to 5-10 hours easy for a person. For one boss.

[Game of Bones.8975]

> @nekretaal.6485 said:

> Stop saying that WvW and Pvp allow players to craft legendary armor.

>

> The armor they can craft doesn't have a unique look and doesn't advance the "legendary armor" achievement. According to the achievements, this pvp and WvW armor doesn't count as legendary.

>

> It's just stat swappable armor. There is nothing legendary about it.

 

Do they have the status of Legendary rarity ... yes. Then they are Legendary.

We are talking about what it may bring to an individual and the fact that some pieces are gated behind the play-status of WvW (Warbringer), Fractals, (Ad Infinitum), or Raids (Envoy).

 

I believe people just want a means to craft Legendary items using only the core game. Is there a game-changing harm in that?

Does someone who has a Gen1 weapon demean your Gen 2 weapon? They were crafted using different lines.

Sure you need to set the standard high; for example start with world completion and you already need the mastery level to craft Legendary items.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Miellyn.6847 said:

> You won't find a clear answer how long it took to get the armor. I started when raids were released and the armor wasn't ready until May this year. So technically it took around 1.5 years.

> But the Legendary Insights don't take hundreds of hours. If you start with a experienced group that clears wing 1-4 in around 2.5h each week it takes 29h over 12 weeks for the first set. The collection almost finishes itself during that time. Other sets need double the time.

 

How much time do you believe would be added on if you didn't start with an experienced group and had to earn your first kills?

[Tails.9372]

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> So, an OW PvM legendary would be... Open World Bosses, JP's, and... a questline?

JPs have nothing to do with OW PvM so scratch that. Just do something similar to what WvW does: add a reward track for participating in events and give the players a general currency for completing big meta events & killing epic / legendary creatures.

 

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> Pretty sure every legendary requires you to play WvW and sPvP...

Not really, WvW players don't have to concern themselves with anything but WvW content if they want to get their legendary armor set (same with sPvP).

 

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> I would say though that there are some achieves you can skip in instance content if you want to focus on Open World

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the episode.

 

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

>and the instance achievements are probably some of the easiest achievements in getting Aurora

It depends, they're in general neither harder nor easier than the rest. Like I said it's mixed.

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > If it’s open world then it better be a time-gated grindfest so that people have to put in a tremendous amount of effort towards it.

>

> Yes, because heaven forbid that people should be able to have FUN in games, right?

 

Because heaven forbid a luxury and prestige item retain those via hard work and dedication, right ?

 

Also isn't the fun you had along the way making it part of the fun you had in games ?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > If it’s open world then it better be a time-gated grindfest so that people have to put in a tremendous amount of effort towards it.

> >

> > Yes, because heaven forbid that people should be able to have FUN in games, right?

>

> Because heaven forbid a luxury and prestige item retain those via hard work and dedication, right ?

>

> Also isn't the fun you had along the way making it part of the fun you had in games ?

 

That assumes that you had fun along the way. That's the entire point of this discussion, that currently there are a lot of items in the game that are locked behind paths that not everyone finds fun, forcing them into EITHER a long journey of hard work and dedication that they will *not* enjoy along the way, OR that they never get a thing that they'd really like to have. Neither of those outcomes is a positive one.

 

So to increase the number of positive outcomes, it would be better to have alternate paths to that goal, so that *most* players could find at least one alternate path that they would enjoy *more* than their existing options.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > > If it’s open world then it better be a time-gated grindfest so that people have to put in a tremendous amount of effort towards it.

> > >

> > > Yes, because heaven forbid that people should be able to have FUN in games, right?

> >

> > Because heaven forbid a luxury and prestige item retain those via hard work and dedication, right ?

> >

> > Also isn't the fun you had along the way making it part of the fun you had in games ?

>

> That assumes that you had fun along the way. That's the entire point of this discussion, that currently there are a lot of items in the game that are locked behind paths that not everyone finds fun, forcing them into EITHER a long journey of hard work and dedication that they will *not* enjoy along the way, OR that they never get a thing that they'd really like to have. Neither of those outcomes is a positive one.

>

> So to increase the number of positive outcomes, it would be better to have alternate paths to that goal, so that *most* players could find at least one alternate path that they would enjoy *more* than their existing options.

 

You're playing a game. No one is forcing you to do anything.

 

If you want the shiny, you'll put in the work and get it. If you don't, its pretty obvious what your outcome is.

Believe it or not raids aren't some primeval entity that no one can enjoy and in fact more people come around to enjoying content once they step out and find people they enjoy playing with.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

>You're playing a game. No one is forcing you to do anything.

 

When has that argument *ever* satisfied anyone's concerns? That's the same argument EA is making about Battlefront's loot boxes. I will repeat, " forcing them into EITHER a long journey of hard work and dedication that they will not enjoy along the way, OR that they never get a thing that they'd really like to have. Neither of those outcomes is a positive one."

 

ANet is not forcing me to choose either of those paths, but they are forcing me to choose ONE of those paths, by not providing an alternative. Neither path is a positive outcome, so YES, they ARE "forcing" me to do something.

 

>Believe it or not raids aren't some primeval entity that no one can enjoy and in fact more people come around to enjoying content once they step out and find people they enjoy playing with.

 

I fully believe that there are people who enjoy raiding, and for those players, *I hope that they enjoy raiding as much as they like.*

 

This is not about those people.

 

This is about everyone else.

 

This is about finding solutions that also work for *those* players, the ones who *will never enjoy raiding.*

 

Do you care whether those players are happy? That is the only relevant question here.