Feanor.2358 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That will kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfy.8025 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. uhh! It's actually just a bad comparison, but you're still wrong. The ferrari thing is invalid. However, getting hired to do a job you know nothing about is a valid comparison to getting into raiding in gw2 with basically 0 qualifications. Anywho, yea the 100cm kp does give you a red infusion only obtainable through that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > I think you've made perfectly clear that *you* don't, nothing more. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing. > > > > > > > > > > It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself. > > > > > > > > > > And then you hit me with this: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > > > > > > So ohoni, i understand those aren't positives for you but you're not the center of the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for *those* players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them. > > > > > > > > > > That's just drawing a big ??? for me there. > > > > > > > > The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course. > > > > > > It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode. > > > > > > Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor. > > > > I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc. > > > > I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes? > > Scripted Encounters can never truly maintain challenge, this is why trying to make PvE Content like Raids is a failure from the get go, unless the game is built from the group up to provide this kind of content, which GW2 was not. With any kind of scripted content, once the mechanics are figured out they become a grind. Difficult to learn, punishing, but capable of being mastered is literally the point. That's not a bug or a failure. That's literally the core appeal of video gaming for a large archetype of people. No one ever asked for or wanted content that was impossible to master, where players couldn't do anything to improve their chances of beating bosses. That you think that's what raids should have been, or that you believed that's what people were asking for shows how far off into outer space you're thinking. People wanted content that made them care about their build, specs, rotation, and pushing their class capabilities to the limit because if you couldn't do that you'd fail. Mission accomplished. > @"STIHL.2489" said: > Now for me, I have always understood that skins were often content exclusive. That has been the nature of the game, but you know, games evolve, and if they can change one way, they can change another, so even trying to cling to exclusive skins for content is not really worthwhile at this point. But I don't really care that much for the skins as they are, so it's not an issue for me. In fact, I think they Evony is awfully ugly. > > With that said, it was a horrible idea to put legendary Armor behind Raids as this bottlenecks the the end game, moving away from several game styles that provided equal yet unique rewards, to One game Style that provided the best rewards. They started down this bad direction path with Fractals, but they at least had the awareness to put in alternate paths to Ascended as opposed to them just being drops in Fractals, but, that still gave fractals the best gear drops in the game, till they _sorta-kinda_ branched off on that. > > But this whole thing where they lock the best tier of gear behind a raid, that's going to hurt them, quite a bit to be honest, as while many players may not care about raids, in a game like GW2 a lot of them at least like the idea of being able to progress towards long goals like Legendary Armor and Gear, and with raid locking these things that kills the goal before they even start on it. > > Which will demoralize their casual base, and there is no question about this. As such, I would bet a large portion of the current community is already looking for another game to replace GW2 for them, but with poor lunches by games like Bless and many other really exciting MMO's being a few years off, no doubt most of the people already miffed about this have stopped spending money, hence the current change in how the store works, and have been looking at other games, with that said, BDO could have been beyond great if their UI was better. > > So, their move to put in this content, and then lock legendary armor behind it.. oh.. that's hurting them and it's gonna hurt them a lot more as time goes on. Ascended is the best tier of gear. Legendary is just there for bragging points. This goes for weapons and armor. No one _needs_ legendary gear to play the game. Not raiders. Not casuals. No body. Once you have ascended stats, "best gear" is subjective. There is so much crazy fashion stuff you can do, so many things you can work towards without these 18 skins. I'm probably never going to get a legendary backpack. I like sPvP but I take it too seriously to potentially tank my rating by playing classes outside my main in Ranked games during the season. So I'm probably never going to get The Ascension which is a shame because it would look great on my warrior. I got over it. And if I can't get over it I'll start working on getting those wins. I'll probably never get Ad Infinitum. A legendary would be really convenient for my mesmer who currently switches between four ascended back pieces, but going through like four collections of nonsense pretending to be a quest is busy work that I'm just not interested in. I got over it. And if I can't get over it, i'll do start working on the collection. I'll never get Warbringer. I can't stand WvW what so ever and milking participation afking for the Gift of Battle is about all I can stand. I got over it. Every time I go into an explorable dungeons to get tokens because of a legendary or mystic forge recipe I'm working on bores me to tears. But I'll do it if I think it's worth it. Everyone has stuff has stuff they'd like in game but choose, emphasis on choose, not to get because they don't want to put the effort in to get it. That's not unique to casuals and legendary armor. Raiding is just as accessible to everyone in this thread as it was to me when I wanted to get into raiding and couldn't at first until I stepped up and looked for a guild that could do raid training. Most casuals don't look demoralized. They're still grinding their brains out over in Instan and Sandswept Isles on their Turret Engineers, or doing bounties, or HoT metas, or fractals. And I don't see a single person riding a default mount skin anymore. Ever. And Arenanet's earnings have jumped considerably since the Heart of Thorns days, and from what they've said apparently the population has too. The game is in the healthiest position it's ever been since it's initial 2012 release. No one's goal is "killed" before they even start it. They just decide they'd rather do other things and pursue other goals. On top of that, legendary armor and raid weapons are some of the best implemented gear in the game. They have meaning because they show everyone "Hey. I did a thing" rather than "I busted out the credit card, converted gold to gems or bought something off the Trade Post for some gold." Everyone should want _more_ gear, tied directly to in game PvE content instead of gem store or sellable gear. Not less. More in game PvE rewards spread a cross a bell curve difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtegg.5216 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 There should be two modes mainly because hard mode practically forces meta builds to succeed (unless the raid party is really experienced), which sort of goes against Anets own design philosophy. In our guild we do not enforce meta-builds, so raids should at least be trainable with non-optimized dps builds as a start. To be honest raids are sort of disappointing in their design which has not changed in over a decade. Basically, a time-gated dps race. It's too bad the raid designers do not develop a more strategic design in which Bosses adapt their attacks and defenses based upon the raid participants class composition and have the boss change tactics during the battle based upon the raid's performance instead of the same static phased fights present today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhiannon.1726 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"curtegg.5216" said: > There should be two modes mainly because hard mode practically forces meta builds to succeed (unless the raid party is really experienced), which sort of goes against Anets own design philosophy. In our guild we do not enforce meta-builds, so raids should at least be trainable with non-optimized dps builds as a start. To be honest raids are sort of disappointing in their design which has not changed in over a decade. Basically, a time-gated dps race. It's too bad the raid designers do not develop a more strategic design in which Bosses adapt their attacks and defenses based upon the raid participants class composition and have the boss change tactics during the battle based upon the raid's performance instead of the same static phased fights present today. Many people didn't have meta builds when raids where introduced and they succeeded. You just played the intended mechanic (like taking updrafts at Gorseval). Nowadays you can skip mechanics. A boss that changes the attacks/defenses would make raids more difficult and not easier and people would just adapt to it and demand the most optimal group composition. Additionally there would be more bugs and/or a longer developement time. Though we already have a boss (Statues) where you get more greens to run to the more dps you do. You also have a choice to either bring dps or more healers. For example you can bring more healers at Cairn as there isn't a timer, or you could bring 6 healers, 1 chrono and 2 dps for River. You also can do Matthias with more healers and take some min longer or you can go dps and be faster but with more risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > That will kill them. You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > And if you don't remember, dungeons _got_ nerfed later on. It wasn't just a case of scaling rework or better gear/power creep (although that helped too). > > Also, those threads weren't all that common then. There was a number of them, but it wasn't to the level when there was at least one active all the time. It wasn't even close to that. > > I remember dungeons getting buffed in difficulty, not nerfed, when Arenanet decided to remove waypointing when your team was in combat, to combat death rushing. Which we can all agree was a silly tactic. Other than that, when was Giganticus Lupicus nerfed? Only big dungeon boss nerf I remember was Simin and that happened much much later. You must have forgotten, that when they removed res rushing strategy, they also did a balance pass on all dungeon bosses, making them easier to compensate. There were also some individual reworks later. For example, AC story is nowhere to the original difficulty, and this, as well as the other AC paths, were being redone multiple times. And every time it happened, the result was an easier encounter, not a harder one. In fact, i actually remember only _one_ case when a rework resulted in a significantly harder encounter (on TA fd/up path), and it was a result of a _bug_. And something that indirectly caused that path to be removed completely later on. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > Possibly because he is approaching it from a very holier-than-thou and entitled angle. If his approach was less ostentatious perhaps fewer people would be annoyed with his arguments and many would be more accomodating. That argument could be as easily used towards the other side of the discussion, but i'd rather avoid any personal attacks and concentrate on actual arguments. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. Sure i can. After all, i farmed that armor as well, and i see no problem whatsoever in making it more widely accessible. I do understand this way of thinking, but i don't support it, and see no reason why it should be encouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > You must have forgotten, that when they removed res rushing strategy, they also did a balance pass on all dungeon bosses, making them easier to compensate. There were also some individual reworks later. For example, AC story is nowhere to the original difficulty, and this, as well as the other AC paths, were being redone multiple times. And every time it happened, the result was an easier encounter, not a harder one. In fact, i actually remember only _one_ case when a rework resulted in a significantly harder encounter (on TA fd/up path), and it was a result of a _bug_. And something that indirectly caused that path to be removed completely later on. > Since I've been looking at that exact time the one that must've forgotten is you. They did not do a balance pass on *all* dungeon bosses, instead they reworked STORY modes of dungeons not explorable paths. Further what was tweaked was individual mobs, not bosses, like the Inquest in CoE story that one-shotted players with lightning attacks. Arah wasn't touched in terms of difficulty, other than fixing exploits, CoE explorable wasn't touched either, and other dungeons like CoF Path 2 were made significantly harder by fixing loopholes and glitches. AC was buffed in difficulty multiple times, replacing the boring old bosses with new ones, that actually had some mechanics to fight, if that made them "Easier to fight" is irrelevant, truth of the matter is that they tweaked the AC bosses to be something other than damage sponges. Or how they changed the Spider Queen to be challenging and not afk-killed by a solo Elementalist in Water Attunement spamming 1, yes that was very possible back in the day. Some health/armor reductions did happen when there were toughness and scaling changes but those aren't mechanics, plus they aren't affecting the game with all the power creep anyway. These posts explain very well what happened with dungeons and their difficulty: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Do-NOT-nerf-please/page/1#post126835 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeons-Difficulty-ninja-nerfed/page/1#post389609 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > > > For a short amount of time. People leave when there is nothing left to do. Maybe take a look at WoWs population after LFR. > > > > > > > > Raiders have claimed to me, in this very thread, that they would continue to raid even after having acquired the Envoy armor. > > > > > > > > Also, there is no "WoW's population after LFR," that's just a meme. WoW's population did not change as any sort of result of LFR or other shifts towards convenience, they shifted the same as ANY game does over time, in reaction to market forces, other options in the marketplace, and general player burnout. They would be doing a LOT worse off without LFR. > > > Millions of people play versions of WoW before easy mode raids, before LFR and all the other stuff they added to make sure everyone saw as much content as possible. This isn't just players moving on with the game, this is millions of players preferring older versions of the _same game_. You've never acknowledged this fact once. > > > > > > > So they're ruined then. ANet's devalued the experience and made all Envoy armor worthless. > > > > > > > > So what is there to lose my making them a little bit moreso? > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > Nope. Raids are definitely easier than they were even a year ago. That's for a variety of reasons. > > > > > > > > According to Feanor this isn’t true. > > > > > > > > Feanor: Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it? > > > > > > > > Me: Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways? > > > > > > > > Feanor: No. > > > > > > > > Or, to elaborate a bit, it does happen in games with gear treadmill where the powercreep trivializes the challenge. Since GW2 does not have this, it doesn't happen here. > > > Vale Guardian is still mostly the exact same fight as he was back in 2015. It's just the raiding community has gotten eons better at the game. By and large they've mastered it. Which > > > something that's difficult to learn, is punishing and has a high chance of failure but can be mastered is exactly what I want from raid content. Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned. > > > > > > Vale Guardian is pretty much the exact same fight as it was back on release. But the raid community have collectively gotten eons better at the game than when Vale Guardian was released. People who have learned to beat him, have learned to beat him with more ease than people who have not. Funny that! You guys are acting like you caught me in some gotcha when that's just an inevitable part of human intelligence to get better with practice. > > > > It doesn't mean the fight has gotten any easier. It means the raiders have gotten better. But host a VG for non-raiders and see how easy it will be. > > That's exactly what I'm saying in so many words. It's funny how they're acting like this is some kind of gotcha. I prefer the two finger pistols going pew pew pew, with a wink and a half smirk, rather then gotcha, but if that’s what ya want, I’m happy to oblige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. > > This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) > > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. > > The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. its always possible to look for issues where you are not in solution mode though. At a basic 'minimum viable product' (for those that understand that term) Create a copy of the instance, reduce dmg across the board by x% and create a copy of legendary from wvw or pvp and tweak the skins to give rewards. Job done for phase 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. > > This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) > > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. > > The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > > > > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. > > > > This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) > > > > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. > > > > The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. > > So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too. really, i think anyone who would do the instance would love legendary items. Visualise that you wanted to do the instances , suddenly trinkets that get sharded straight away these days are not so attractive right, but then again you dont really think this is an attractive reward do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > > > > > > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. > > > > > > This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) > > > > > > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. > > > > > > The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. > > > > So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too. > > really, i think anyone who would do the instance would love legendary items. Visualise that you wanted to do the instances , suddenly trinkets that get sharded straight away these days are not so attractive right, but then again you dont really think this is an attractive reward do you. A new legendary skin for normal mode and a bunch of raiding trinkets for hard mode was what I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > > > > > > > > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. > > > > > > > > This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) > > > > > > > > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. > > > > > > > > The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. > > > > > > So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too. > > > > really, i think anyone who would do the instance would love legendary items. Visualise that you wanted to do the instances , suddenly trinkets that get sharded straight away these days are not so attractive right, but then again you dont really think this is an attractive reward do you. > > A new legendary skin for normal mode and a bunch of raiding trinkets for hard mode was what I was referring to. ah apologies misunderstood, that makes sense and seems reasonable :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > That will kill them. > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So go ahead and grind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your _Ferrari_ for one tenth the cost of a real one , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. what is your problem with letting them have that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically, the skin is the only exclusive part you're getting. Everything else is obtainable otherwise. Unlike the car, which has a lot of sophisticated features you'd miss. So the metaphor breaks here. The problem, obviously, is exactly the exclusivity, and the effort currently required to obtain it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope..there is only ONE PvE path to Legendary Armor, as such it is very exclusive to it's game mode. If there were other PvE ways to get Legendary Armor you would have a great point.. but since there isn't.. you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, I really do. People "convert" from one mode to another, sometimes exactly because of the armor. And it's still playing the same game after all, so sorry, I'm not buying your arbitrary separation. > > > > > > > > > > No.. you don't. You're just disagreeing at this point because you don't like the idea that you're wrong. > > > > > > > > Nobody likes being wrong, but I don't believe I am. See above my point for exclusivity. We both know skins are the true endgame in this game. > > > > > > You used the idea of getting a Farrari for a discounted price as a benchmark for you stand, but the real the world is a very accessible place, where people can in fact get a Ferrari or at the least the facsimile of one for vastly discounted price. If anything, the fact that in the real world people can at least have the look of a Farrari for a reasonable investment just shows how pitiful, entailed and pathetic the stand is by raiders that will continue to hock their purulent point of all or nothing. > > > > > > Not even the world works like that.. and the fact that GW2 expects people to pay into their game to be treated like that.. BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA > > > > > > That will kill them. > > > > You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. *Much* more. I actually pity those who'd choose to make another car look like one. In this game, all you get *beside* the looks is a minor QoL. And I can't stress enough on "minor". Like I said, the metaphor breaks at some point. You're not asking to get an accessible facsimile of an exclusive item. You're asking for a de facto exclusive item to stop being exclusive. Sorry, can't agree. Sure, I'm biased. But then again, can you blame me? It is *my* months of effort that got rewarded by that item. > > See. .. No.. I **can** blame you for being like this.. because.. I don't understand your mindset. > > Case in point, I spent hundreds of tries to do the Mad King till I finally beat it.. once I beat it.. doing to again I think around two dozen more times was pretty easy in compairosn.. and raids are not intrinsically different then doing that.. once the mechanic and method is learned, it becomes easy to the point of a grind, where you know exactly why and where you failed if you fail at all. I just had no one helping me nor could anyone carry me, I also didn't need to worry about anyone else screwing it up for me. > > Now, If this year, they put in an easy path for Mad King so others could learn it and complete it, like they did with Winters Day, I would welcome it.. I would not turn into an insufferable baby crying about my efforts and the like, I would share in the joy that other players are now having, I would enjoy running with them, and think it was better overall for the game that it was more inclusive. > > So.. No.. I don't respect your stand, but.. it's not you I blame.. I blame Anet for being foolish enough to think that catering to that kind of mindset will profit their game.. it won't. > > It will slowly kill this game, and your rewards will be vaporware. Dark Souls was challenging when I first played it But now I could probably do a zero death run with a little bit of practice on the sequence break at the mandatory death. It's still fun to revisit it, to play new roles and builds and to continue getting better even though I'm at least at the minimum threshold for beating it. Same with raids. Plus with raids you're playing with friends, making it communal as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargas.6251 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 Raids being difficult is fine. The problem with difficult content is that it exacerbates build imbalance. If you’re going to continue releasing harder and harder content, you have to address the build variety, or you end up with the toxic meta attitude that has been growing as of late. When everyone can clear it, things aren’t so bad. I would like to add that the quality of loot shouldn’t decrease, but simply the frequency of high end drops lowers. That way the content is still accessible and rewarding for less intense players, but the tryhards are rewarded for their efforts and skill via more gold for less grinding. It also allows off meta builds more opportunity to play the content while Anet ideally fixes the build imbalance. Fat chance of that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > > > > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. > > > > This solution also has many holes. In theory it's fine but, first of all the Raids that provide access to the Legendary Armor are part of Heart of Thorns. If I was Anet I wouldn't add such a high prestigious reward to so old content. Creating a brand new Legendary Armor skin for Heart of Thorns owners is wasted resources and wasted time that could be spent making new skins for the next expansion... Heart of Thorns is done already, no new reward will ever be created specifically for it (unless it's a gem store glider) > > > > Further, what about the Path of Fire Raids? We have one now Hall of Chains, it makes sense to get another Raid to finish the Legendary trinket before the next expansion. What exactly would an easy mode for Hall of Chains provide? Obviously you can't expect players to have both expansions to get Legendary armor, for marketing reasons, so Hall of Chains (and the next Raid) need something else. > > > > The way I see it, if modes are to be added to the Raid, is to make sure the next expansion's Raids are created from scratch to support tiers, something the current Raids were never designed for, and add a new Legendary Armor skin to the "normal" version there. Then add another Legendary item, amulet, accessory, back item, to the Hard version. That way you make sure both modes get players, there is no conflict of interest, since both modes offer different "end" rewards. And by making the Raid from the start tier-friendly you skip the problem of adding code later, which has the tendency of breaking things completely. > > So add more Legendary items to raiding? Yeah no thanks, I prefer they spread the trinkets and so forth among the other game modes too. You think they won't add more Legendary items to raiding? IT's more than safe to assume that every Raid will be tied to at least one Legendary item. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > A new legendary skin for normal mode and a bunch of raiding trinkets for hard mode was what I was referring to. I didn't mean all of those at once, one trinket only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: >Millions of people play versions of WoW before easy mode raids, before LFR and all the other stuff they added to make sure everyone saw as much content as possible. Sure, WoW has a lot of history and a lot of people enjoy different aspects of it, and *reportedly* a million or so do play on these *free* and often cheat-filled alternate servers (although I asked for a source for your numbers and you've yet to provide one, you just keep repeating "millions!"). But that said, millions *more* players **pay** to play on the *current* WoW servers, wiht all the "evils" of "filthy casuals." > @"nia.4725" said: >You should have a wider perspective on this. Losing all raiders is losing lots of long-term customers who will keep buying your game and all things associated with it. Maybe, but not a lot of them, and some of them have reported in this very thread that they don't even *have* all of the mounts, much less that they would buy expensive skins for them. I just don't see them as being that huge a profit source for ANet. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > Also, let's be honest here guy; you don't actually care about people who would like something more from current raids, **you want to get envoy armor via de-facto world bosses**. That's the "something more" I want from the current raids. A path for more casual players to be able to work towards envoy armor. > @"Wolfy.8025" said: > Ok. Could the guys who want easy mode explain to me how the rewards would differ? Well there's been a lot of back and forth, and a certain amount of flexibility involved, but the consensus so far is that it would offer 1/3 the rewards as normal mode, so basically 1/3 of an LI per boss kill. >Would easy mode rewards include LIs? Because then you could cheese your way into harder modes. Also if it offered the same rewards, why would you bother doing the harder content ever? Because you enjoy doing it. If you don't enjoy doing it, then you shouldn't. >The only way to practise something hard is to practise it on the hard difficulty or - the only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent. Easy mode is mostly intended for players that don't care about "gitting gud," and just want to have fun playing at whatever level they are at. Players that do care about "gitting gud" would still have the hard mode version to play. > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > Possibly because he is approaching it from a very holier-than-thou and entitled angle. If his approach was less ostentatious perhaps fewer people would be annoyed with his arguments and many would be more accomodating. I hate to be the one to tell you, but if anyone is approaching this discussion from a holier-than-thou and entitled angle, it's not me. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate the American car building philosophy that gave us the Mustang and the Corvette. But where are the sacrifices Ohoni makes? Remember, we're not talking about my metaphor, we're talking about the Envoy. I would be sacrificing two things. 1. no purple armor. I would not have the stat swapping, the "engineering" of the armor, just the skin, the "surface" of the armor. 2. It would take me longer to complete, since the progression path would be slower. Not to even mention that I would be starting about two years later than people had access to the existing methods, I mean I wouldn't even be able to start before many players already had their armor completed. I think that's a very reasonable trade-off. >You're missing the point. In the real world, there's more to owning a Ferarri than just the looks. But here we're *just* talking about the looks. And again, you ignored the point I made earlier, about why your Ferrari example is actually flawed, because ANYONE can own a Ferrari, all they need to do is reach the sale price. You don't have to work a *single specific job* if you want to own a Ferrari, in other words, you don't *have* to raid to get a Ferrari if you don't enjoy raiding. You can do *anything* to get a Ferrari. Some jobs pay more, making it *faster* to acquire, but you have plenty of options, you aren't locked into a single job whether you enjoy that job or not. You can work as a doctor and earn a Ferrari quickly, or work as a plumber and earn a Ferrari over a longer period of time, it's up to you. That's all I'm asking for here, so by your own example, there *should* be alternate paths. >It is my months of effort that got rewarded by that item. And in return you *got* that item, and nobody is trying to take it away from you. What you *never* got is an exclusive entitlement to gatekeep anyone *else*( from getting that item. You own the *item, not the entire *concept* of the item. I spent months earning The Ascension, that **NEVER** gave me the right to decide who else should be "allowed" to have one. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > And I see no reason why Ohoni's way of thinking should be encouraged. So have we reached an impasse? > > the compromise seems obvious to me, no envoy gear for easy mode, but a different legendary skin, that takes proportionally longer the fram than existing raids, along line of wvw and pvp. I think Ohni is wrong, both on principle and on precedence. But they will never make another Legendary set, so that point is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > But they will never make another Legendary set, so that point is moot. > For old content? Yes that's probably true. But for future content? Why wouldn't they make more Legendary Armor sets? Maybe we'll need to wait until all trinkets get their Legendary version first, but new Legendary armor shouldn't be completely out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > >Millions of people play versions of WoW before easy mode raids, before LFR and all the other stuff they added to make sure everyone saw as much content as possible. > > Sure, WoW has a lot of history and a lot of people enjoy different aspects of it, and *reportedly* a million or so do play on these *free* and often cheat-filled alternate servers (although I asked for a source for your numbers and you've yet to provide one, you just keep repeating "millions!"). But that said, millions *more* players **pay** to play on the *current* WoW servers, wiht all the "evils" of "filthy casuals." That was _just_ Nostalrius that had over a million active accounts (defined as having logged in within the past week). And Nostalrius wasn't even the most popular private (Well server when it shut down. So right there's that's 3 million minimum right there. That's already getting _real_ close to Legion's 3.3 million sales before you start adding the population of lesser known servers like Light's Hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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