Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> I want each play-style to get their own Legendaries. Sure I might have to go to a location I'm not a fan of for a small period of time to complete something for the Legendary (that's fair) but **I shouldn't have to hard to commit to a specific mode to get a Legendary period**. Legendaries should be for ALL play-styles not just 1.

 

I think this here is the main point, it's the hard commit to content that a player may really not enjoy that is where the real problem is.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

>

> The difference being: the game was under development back then.

 

But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

 

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

 

And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

 

>No he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode. That's the thing. It's not about an open world legendary armor or whatever, it's about specifically having envoy come out of easy mode.

 

>He wont budge on this point.

 

My stance is my own, but it is a spectrum. If they made some of the changes I want, but not all of them, I would be happy about those changes, but I would continue to press for the rest. Other people might be fine with less, and that's ok. The point is that they should make *some* changes, that would at least be better than nothing.

 

>I'm not the correct person to attack. And also, the core problem is his refusal to accept the concept of exclusive rewards for completing different content.

 

Why is that a "problem," rather than "a difference of opinion?"

 

>For a similar reason that if you were in a tournament of some kind that you would want first place to get a better rewards than second place. Well I'm actually not so sure about you specifically now.

 

But we aren't talking about a tournament. There *is* no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is no reason why they should have exclusive access to anything.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>I never said the data from efficiency speak for the entire Game, only that it is a rather large sample, which I think is very much indisputable. You do understand what sampling is I hope.

 

Again though, "large samples" are *only* useful in so far as they are representative of the whole. Taking a "large sample" that is not scientifically sourced, not accurate to the general population, does not make that sample a valid one. **Size doesn't matter.** If you took a sample of 100 people through scientifically randomize means, that would provide a *more* valid result than if you sampled 100,000 people through a biased method. Efficiency results can be *interesting,* but they cannot be "evidence" of anything, they cannot be used to significantly enhance or negate any position in an argument.

 

>If everyone that ever posted statistics over a subject had to poll every single interested person then we wouldn't have statistics to begin with.

 

Again though, it has to be done randomly, not opt-in, not in a biased sourcing pool. It's not about collecting data from every single person, it's about ensuring that the data that *is* accumulated is likely to *reflect* the views of every single person, because at least one of the people polled would have similar viewpoints.

 

>Notice how it keeps cropping up by random people and then it's the same 5-6 that keep the thread active for 70+ pages.

 

I think you think that supports your argument, it doesn't. Yes, I talk a lot, and other people talk at me a lot, and the threads go on forever, oh noes. But think about the alternative, it would be even worse for your basic premise. By people like me keeping a handful of threads going, it makes it more likely that unique voices just pop in to add their voice to the ongoing thread (as several have done over the past week) rather than starting new threads of their own. If these larger threads weren't kept active, then they would just be starting their own thread to reflect their positions. The *important* part here is not how many pages a thread goes for, the important part is that every week, 2-3 people pop up saying "this isn't working for me, something needs to change." I'm certainly not doing that.

 

>IT's this kind of mentality shown in this thread that makes me understand why developers are more likely to post on reddit than post on these forums.

 

Although one could argue that if they actually engaged more often and settled these issues, it wouldn't go on for 70+ pages. Their silence only leaves a vacuum.

 

> @"Ferelwing.8463" said:

> I think the problem is that the assumption is that they will keep Raids having Legendary Armor (which is what they said currently) and they are trying to find ways to work within that to be able to get Legendary Armor. If Anet would change that stance or offer other Legendary Armor sets then this might change.

 

It definitely splits up the issues, spreads out the opposition. My personal stance is that 1. I want to be able to play through the raid content in a lower-stress, more casual manner, and 2. I want alternate paths to Envoy skins. I see "Easy mode with a path to Envoy" as the easiest way to accomplish both, killing two birds with one stone, but if they added "Easy mode with generic loot" that would at least kill one bird, and if they added "Envoy armor through an OW collection chain," that would be killing another bird, and the two wouldn't *have* to have anything to do with each other.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.

 

Not technically true, I actually quit WoW before I got to the raiding phase, but my basic history is that I've been an MMO hobo since the 90s, moving from MMO to MMO because while I always found the *concept* engaging, I didn't enjoy a lot of the baggage, like forced grouping, level grind, etc. I stuck with a few MMOs for 6-12 months, but rarely any longer than that, until GW2 which I've been playing regularly since beta. GW2 is the MMO that most "got" what I'd been looking for since Asheron's Call's beta, an MMO that is about playing *around* other people, but without a focus on formal groups and *reliance* on other players. A "play how you want, when you want" sort of game, rather than a "group up in town until you've formed a party and then set out, at the whims of party drama." I know plenty of people like that sort of party-based experience, but there are *tons* of other MMOs for them to play. GW2 was mine, and I resent the shifts over time toward that sort of game.

 

And for the record, I don't mind the "normal mode" raids being *in* GW2, so long as they don't give **any** reasons for players who don't expressly *want* to raid to play them. No unique content, no unique rewards, if you *enjoy* challenging content, then they will be there for you, if you *don't* enjoy them, you have other paths available and miss out on nothing else.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> The 1 million was just Nostalrius before it was shut down, which wasn't even the most popular legacy server.

 

I still cannot find a source that supports your numbers on this one, and have asked you several times what your own source is, and you have still yet to provide it. These are hard numbers you are citing, you should have a source for them. I pointed out another source that indicated 1.3m total.

 

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

>How many freaking exclusive skins ARE in open world pve? In achievments of the story? At heartsellers? You have aurora behind a whole freaking lw season which forces me to play open world content for weeks, yet you only demand that your favorite mode should get an alternative option?

 

My response to this will always be, "if you have a problem with some exclusive item locked behind PvE, then argue against it, **I will support you."** I am consistently against exclusively locked items, at least once that require a significant investment of time or skill. I believe that the only "exclusive" items should be ones that can be quickly acquired, just enough to force you to *taste* a content type, without locking you into it for dozens or hundreds of hours. I am consistent on that, on both things I want, and things I already have, on things that are only available in modes I dislike, and things that are available in modes I play every day. I believe *all* rewards that would encourage a player to spend time in the game *not* enjoying themselves are toxic to the game as a whole. Pointing to other examples of the game doing it wrong does not excuse this example of the game doing it wrong, two wrongs do not make a right.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> >

> > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

>

> But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

>

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

>

> And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

 

Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraiders and legendary armor in that situation.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> > >

> > > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

> >

> > But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

> >

> > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> >

> > And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

>

> Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation.

 

Sure.

 

But is that a *good* thing?

 

Does anyone *benefit* by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone *needs* to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with *only* the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" *or* "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice.

 

I am opposed to *any* situation where that option is forced. I believe that if any player enjoys *most* of how the game works, then *all* aspects of the game should be available in a form that they would enjoy. The only people who shouldn't be able to find a path to their goals that suits their playstyle would be players who don't enjoy the game at all, in which case, why would they even be here?

[Sernius Alathar.6538]

I am sure originally this thread was about raiding having difficulty degrees, like a large majority of MMO's have but GW2 for some reason doesn't. I mean, at the very least there should be a story mode like we had with dungeons. As for how you balance difficulty, I am unsure, especially since raids were based off the performance off elitest guild testing, and not using a random sample of players to judge content difficulty. Most other MMO's with raid content have duo or triple splits (normal/advanced/elite) and the rewards/difficulty is suitably adjusted.

 

But what has become abundantly clear is that this 79page thread is actually less about raid accessibility and more about gated rewards. As someone who has crafted every legendary weapon, made my flashy trinket and backpiece, and nearing completion of WvW legendary armor. I find it a lil galling that legendary armor (the shiny most people want for QoL and utility) is stuck in the most tedious and unrewarding content in the game. (let's face it, the rewards for raids are pretty shit compared to proper farming).

 

What I don't understand is why there is 1 way to obtain some of this stuff, this is legendary journey stuff, it should always have been accessible by doing any content in the game PvP/WvW/PvE/Raids/Fractals whatever. None of the legendary equipment besides the backpieces should be gated by specific content - especially when one moment they tell us we are meant to get rewarded for doing the content we wish to do, then forcing a gated content down our throats. Legendary Equipment - the general stuff - weapons/trinkets/Armor. Should be accessible from any part of the game.

 

Honestly, legendary armor needs to be unlinked to raids, and leave the already raid only weapons and rewards that exist for that content only (the way dungeons had unique thematic skins and fractals). Reshape legendary Insights to be similar to the bounty system in PoF, add/create a new achievement tier for weeklies and link activities that can reward exclusive items for armor progress like Legendary Insights. e.g. Kill x-Legendary Bosses in Dungeons, Fractals, WvW, Raids, and PvE. (specific or unspecific) and you get x-amount of legendary insights for completing weekly legendary boss targets.

 

If raiders truly enjoy raiding then they won't have any issue with this since they are doing it for the *epeen* prestige, and fun?. They can give them a fancy badge like you get with PvP tournament tiers for raiding, if they want to show off whatever it is they think they have achieved. And there would be LESS of these threads constantly popping up because of the dissatisfaction with the current situation. ( I mean seriously, it's been a constant gripe since raids and armor was announced, it's obviously an ongoing and will continue to be an ongoing problem that needs resolving).

 

And to my WvW brethren, I 150% agree with the cheap ass look of WvW legendary armor, utterly disappointing.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> > > >

> > > > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

> > >

> > > But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

> > >

> > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> > >

> > > And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

> >

> > Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation.

>

> Sure.

>

> But is that a *good* thing?

>

> Does anyone *benefit* by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone *needs* to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with *only* the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" *or* "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice.

 

This is a solid point.. and one you have made many times over, but they won't get it.. because they don't want to get it. Which is why this discussion will never end.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> My stance is my own, but it is a spectrum. If they made some of the changes I want, but not all of them, I would be happy about those changes, but I would continue to press for the rest. Other people might be fine with less, and that's ok. The point is that they should make *some* changes, that would at least be better than nothing.

 

Nah you have straight up said on multiple occasions you won't compromise on those two points. Unless you'd like to tell me you've changed your mind.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Why is that a "problem," rather than "a difference of opinion?"

 

Not going to respond to this point any more than this due to extreme pedantry.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said

> But we aren't talking about a tournament. There *is* no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is **no reason** why they should have **exclusive** access to **anything**.

 

Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> > > >

> > > > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

> > >

> > > But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

> > >

> > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> > >

> > > And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

> >

> > Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation.

>

> Sure.

>

> But is that a *good* thing?

>

> Does anyone *benefit* by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone *needs* to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with *only* the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" *or* "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice.

>

> I am opposed to *any* situation where that option is forced. I believe that if any player enjoys *most* of how the game works, then *all* aspects of the game should be available in a form that they would enjoy. The only people who shouldn't be able to find a path to their goals that suits their playstyle would be players who don't enjoy the game at all, in which case, why would they even be here?

 

I think at this point part of the reason why I oppose you, a significant part actually, is due to how incredibly aggravating your arguments are and seeing you unsatisfied and not obtaining envoy armor is satisfying to me. I think a significant portion of the people in this thread probably share my sentiment.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Although one could argue that if they actually engaged more often and settled these issues, it wouldn't go on for 70+ pages. Their silence only leaves a vacuum.

 

They did engage and said what they had to say on the issue, on this thread and many others. You and others disliked the answer, that doesn't mean they did not answer.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

>Nah you have straight up said on multiple occasions you won't compromise on those two points. Unless you'd like to tell me you've changed your mind.

 

No, I won't compromise on them, but ultimately they don't absolutely have to satisfy me, so what difference does that make? Let's say there are ten players in the game. Two of them want raids to stay the same (A and B ). One of them wants easy mode raids, and wants Envoy armor from them ©. Two just want easy mode raids and don't care about the armor.(D and E). One only wants the armor and doesn't care about the raids (F). Four don't care about any of this.

 

Ok, so if they did *just* add easy mode, with no Envoy armor, D and E would be happy, F would be no more happy, and C would be happier, but still not completely satisfied. C being happier would be an improvement, but expect C and F to continue arguing in favor of more accessible Envoy armor.

 

That's my point, I'm not compromising on the goals I want to achieve, but ultimately this isn't a negotiation, they will do whatever it is they do, whether I fully agree with that decision or not. There is no harm in me sticking to my principles, and that's no excuse to not take positive steps that might land short of my goals.

 

>Not going to respond to this point any more than this due to extreme pedantry.

 

Ok.

 

>>@Ohoni.6057 said

>>But we aren't talking about a tournament. There is no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is no reason why they should have exclusive access to anything.

 

>Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

 

Bring it.

 

>I think at this point part of the reason why I oppose you, a significant part actually, is due to how incredibly aggravating your arguments are and seeing you unsatisfied and not obtaining envoy armor is satisfying to me.

 

Ok. Clearly you have the moral highground on that one. I stand chastened.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Although one could argue that if they actually engaged more often and settled these issues, it wouldn't go on for 70+ pages. Their silence only leaves a vacuum.

>

> They did engage and said what they had to say on the issue, on this thread and many others. You and others disliked the answer, that doesn't mean they did not answer.

 

That wasn't engagement, that was deflection. It didn't fully explain the processes involved, it didn't go through the various possibilities and why each would not work. It was just a vague "it would be a lot of work, and we don't want to." That was not satisfactory. We can't even tell from the response what sorts of "easy mode" they were talking about, as many variations on the concept have been discussed here, many of which *would* be overly burdensome to produce, mainly because they were designed to punish anyone who wanted easy mode in the first place.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> No, I won't compromise on them

 

Well there you go, thanks for confirming what I said.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Bring it.

 

I don't see why you're taking this as a challenge, big guy. You made an exceptionally exaggerated statement and I was wondering legitimately if you wanted to tone it down. If not that's fine, just remember you said "There is no reason why they [raiders] should have exclusive access to anything."

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> That wasn't engagement, that was deflection. It didn't fully explain the processes involved, it didn't go through the various possibilities and why each would not work. It was just a vague "it would be a lot of work, and we don't want to." That was not satisfactory. We can't even tell from the response what sorts of "easy mode" they were talking about, as many variations on the concept have been discussed here, many of which *would* be overly burdensome to produce, mainly because they were designed to punish anyone who wanted easy mode in the first place.

 

There is a huge difference between "they didn't give an answer" and "didn't give an answer I liked". Go through all the possibilities? Discuss all the variations? I think you are overthinking what a developer should do on a forum post. Especially when their answer "We want Raids to be the most challenging content" was rather clear

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

>Well there you go, thanks for confirming what I said.

 

Well yes, that was never a point in dispute. What was in dispute was whether that actually *mattered.* It's impossible to argue as to whether or not it's raining outside, either it is or it isn't. What is worth considering is how much it *matters* whether it is raining or not.

 

>I don't see why you're taking this as a challenge, big guy. You made an exceptionally exaggerated statement and I was wondering legitimately if you wanted to tone it down.

 

I stand behind it, I see no reason not to.

 

>If not that's fine, just remember you said "There is no reason why they [raiders] should have exclusive access to anything."

 

Yuuuuuup.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> There is a huge difference between "they didn't give an answer" and "didn't give an answer I liked".

 

Sure, which is why I never said "they didn't give an answer," and instead said "I would need for them to fully explain their stance. That they have done the scientific polling necessary to determine the amount of player interest in such a thing, a comparison between those figures and the current raiding population, a general estimate of the amount of time it would take to implement such a project (and what project they would implement if given the time), and where that developer attention would be pulled from if they did it. Vague "it would be a lot of work so we chose not to do it" is not sufficient, I need details to be satisfied in the response. My concern is that they could do it, but merely choose not to because they want to continue to promote the existing toxic raider culture. There have been a number of developer statements and projects (such as Tribulation mode and the Mad King's Clocktower) that shows that regardless of the game they crafted and the community it cultivated, there are significant elitism sympathies within the dev team that sometimes get their way."

 

>I think you are overthinking what a developer should do on a forum post. Especially when their answer "We want Raids to be the most challenging content" was rather clear

 

Perhaps so, but that's what it would take to satisfy *me* that "no easy mode raids" would be a valid outcome.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> > > > >

> > > > > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

> > > >

> > > > But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

> > > >

> > > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> > > >

> > > > And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

> > >

> > > Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation.

> >

> > Sure.

> >

> > But is that a *good* thing?

> >

> > Does anyone *benefit* by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone *needs* to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with *only* the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" *or* "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice.

> >

> > I am opposed to *any* situation where that option is forced. I believe that if any player enjoys *most* of how the game works, then *all* aspects of the game should be available in a form that they would enjoy. The only people who shouldn't be able to find a path to their goals that suits their playstyle would be players who don't enjoy the game at all, in which case, why would they even be here?

>

> I think at this point part of the reason why I oppose you, a significant part actually, is due to how incredibly aggravating your arguments are and seeing you unsatisfied and not obtaining envoy armor is satisfying to me. I think a significant portion of the people in this thread probably share my sentiment.

 

That only hurts you and your character.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > I'm not sure if you were around in beta, but they actually *did* run polling back then (and for a bit after launch, I think?). I liked that practice. Any time you completed a mission, or an event, or various other things, there was a random chance that a little poll would pop up, and you could rate how well you liked it and offer direct feedback. I'm not saying they need to go fully back to that system as a generalized mechanism, but doing it a little bit in certain cases should provide useful feedback to work with.

> > > >

> > > > The difference being: the game was under development back then.

> > >

> > > But this is an MMO. It is *always* under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!"

> > >

> > > > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> > > > Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

> > >

> > > And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome.

> >

> > Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation.

>

> Sure.

>

> But is that a *good* thing?

Yes.

 

> Does anyone *benefit* by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone *needs* to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with *only* the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" *or* "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice.

A lot of people benefit both for casual players and hardcore players and for casual content and hardcore content. For starters, a lot of people don't know what they'll enjoy most in the long run.

 

I prefer SPvP to collections and world completion. But tying the Funerary Armor to those specific POF collections and the Funerary Weapons to legendary bounties ensured that I actually spent time doing that content. As a result, getting the funerary stuff for my guardian made me appreciate the zones and the work that went into the bounty system and it made me appreciate the items themselves more. And it got me leading a bunch of legendary bounty trains helping people do the bosses as well. All the funerary stuff has a lot more meaning to me now because getting it required specific things from me than the Bounty Hunter and Warbeast armor sets, which I just passively unlocked all of while I played SPvP. And long term, I probably would have been better off not have been able to obtain the skins that way then already having them without trying just passively from doing my favorite thing in the game or just buying them from the gem store. I probably would have had more fun waiting every week for Priory Explorer Elise and being excited about what recipe she's offering next and wondering when and where's she's going to be found. It diversifies player experience. It gives items tangible meaning and makes them cool. And by making people do a variety of things aside from their number 1 favorite thing it prevents burn out.

 

Plus a lot of times players will avoid things they're unfamiliar with. It took me over a year after release to ever set for in PvP or WvW. While I don't remember exactly what got me into SPvP, I do know that if it wasn't for the Gift of Battle I never would have tried WvW. And I didn't like my initial impressions of WvW either. But every time I had to craft a new legendary I had to go back in there and over time I developed an appreciation for the game mode. Think about how many WvWers got into WvW because if you wanted to craft a legendary weapon you had to go into WvW.

 

> I am opposed to *any* situation where that option is forced. I believe that if any player enjoys *most* of how the game works, then *all* aspects of the game should be available in a form that they would enjoy. The only people who shouldn't be able to find a path to their goals that suits their playstyle would be players who don't enjoy the game at all, in which case, why would they even be here?

 

I fundamentally disagree. Not only do I think more items should be rewards from specific content I do think that there should always be a variety (And a wide variety of that) of in game rewards makes either gameplay demands, time demands, or gold demands of the player and sometimes a combination of all of them to varying degrees.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>I prefer SPvP to collections and world completion. But tying the Funerary Armor to those specific POF collections and the Funerary Weapons to legendary bounties ensured that I actually spent time doing that content. As a result, getting the funerary stuff for my guardian made me appreciate the zones and the work that went into the bounty system and it made me appreciate the items themselves more. And it got me leading a bunch of legendary bounty trains helping people do the bosses as well. All the funerary stuff has a lot more meaning to me now because getting it required specific things from me than the Bounty Hunter and Warbeast armor sets, which I just passively unlocked all of while I played SPvP.

 

But that's a content you came to enjoy. Was there never content in the game that you *never* enjoyed? Like I said, I agree with the idea that content can *draw* you to an area, there can be portions that require you to spend a *little* time doing a specific thing, and if you really enjoy it, then great, you can keep doing it. If you really don't enjoy it though, especially if the goal takes months to earn, then they should let you do something else instead.

 

> I probably would have had more fun waiting every week for Priory Explorer Elise and being excited about what recipe she's offering next and wondering when and where's she's going to be found. It diversifies player experience. It gives items tangible meaning and makes them cool. And by making people do a variety of things aside from their number 1 favorite thing it prevents burn out.

 

But none of what you describe could be compared at all to raiding. You describe minor inconveniences and half-week grinds, when what we're talking about is a multi-month grind of very complex and deliberately annoying content. Apples and oranges.

 

>Plus a lot of times players will avoid things they're unfamiliar with. It took me over a year after release to ever set for in PvP or WvW.

 

But again, that can be accomplished with a short term goal, it doesn't require a long term one.

 

>Think about how many WvWers got into WvW because if you wanted to craft a legendary weapon you had to go into WvW.

 

Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players *didn't* play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually *wanted* to play?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I fundamentally disagree. Not only do I think more items should be rewards from specific content I do think that there should always be a variety (And a wide variety of that) of in game rewards makes either gameplay demands, time demands, or gold demands of the player and sometimes a combination of all of them to varying degrees.

 

Precisely how the game rewards are structured. And for a good reason. What Ohoni wants will make players burn out *orders of magnitude* faster.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> >I prefer SPvP to collections and world completion. But tying the Funerary Armor to those specific POF collections and the Funerary Weapons to legendary bounties ensured that I actually spent time doing that content. As a result, getting the funerary stuff for my guardian made me appreciate the zones and the work that went into the bounty system and it made me appreciate the items themselves more. And it got me leading a bunch of legendary bounty trains helping people do the bosses as well. All the funerary stuff has a lot more meaning to me now because getting it required specific things from me than the Bounty Hunter and Warbeast armor sets, which I just passively unlocked all of while I played SPvP.

>

> But that's a content you came to enjoy. Was there never content in the game that you *never* enjoyed? Like I said, I agree with the idea that content can *draw* you to an area, there can be portions that require you to spend a *little* time doing a specific thing, and if you really enjoy it, then great, you can keep doing it. If you really don't enjoy it though, especially if the goal takes months to earn, then they should let you do something else instead.

>

> > I probably would have had more fun waiting every week for Priory Explorer Elise and being excited about what recipe she's offering next and wondering when and where's she's going to be found. It diversifies player experience. It gives items tangible meaning and makes them cool. And by making people do a variety of things aside from their number 1 favorite thing it prevents burn out.

>

> But none of what you describe could be compared at all to raiding. You describe minor inconveniences and half-week grinds, when what we're talking about is a multi-month grind of very complex and deliberately annoying content. Apples and oranges.

>

> >Plus a lot of times players will avoid things they're unfamiliar with. It took me over a year after release to ever set for in PvP or WvW.

>

> But again, that can be accomplished with a short term goal, it doesn't require a long term one.

>

> >Think about how many WvWers got into WvW because if you wanted to craft a legendary weapon you had to go into WvW.

>

> Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players *didn't* play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually *wanted* to play?

 

Existing WVW players (and indeed all potential players) need long term goals, so Anet added them to wvw to fill the gap. WVW already had a ton of short term goals. Other players got attracted to WVW as a result as the overall content package became more attractive.

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> >Well there you go, thanks for confirming what I said.

>

> Well yes, that was never a point in dispute. What was in dispute was whether that actually *mattered.* It's impossible to argue as to whether or not it's raining outside, either it is or it isn't. What is worth considering is how much it *matters* whether it is raining or not.

 

Sure, you can continue to pretend like you weren't offended by someone else describing your own actions and just had to respond for the sake of responding.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I stand behind it, I see no reason not to.

 

So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is **no** reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> Existing WVW players (and indeed all potential players) need long term goals, so Anet added them to wvw to fill the gap. WVW already had a ton of short term goals. Other players got attracted to WVW as a result as the overall content package became more attractive.

 

The solution though is to give WvW long term goals they *can* pursue, without making WvW the *only* way to pursue those goals. Let's say earning a reward takes ten steps. You make it so that step 1, which only takes a few hours, can only be found in WvW. Make it so that steps 2-10 can be earned in several other places, but each takes several times longer than the WvW method. If you love WvW? Great, WvW will get you the reward fastest. Hate WvW? Great, you'll be out in a couple hours, and can do something else. It might take you longer, but it's better than WvW, right? Don't really care? You should probably WvW, it's fastest. Up to you though, I'm not going to tell you how to play. And of course the same applies to other things, rewards that could only be earned outside of WvW would be available in WvW if you preferred. Like imagine if you could earn dungeon armors or PoF map rewards without even having to leave WvW!

 

Options for days.

 

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> Sure, you can continue to pretend like you weren't offended by someone else describing your own actions and just had to respond for the sake of responding.

 

Not "offended," exactly, this isn't some "you triggered bro?" situation. I was just confused as to why you thought it was a big deal.

 

>So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

 

Still a "no" from me. What reason do *you* think that people who raid should get exclusive rewards?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> >So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

>

> Still a "no" from me. What reason do *you* think that people who raid should get exclusive rewards?

 

Same reason I'm sure many people would love for more game unique rewards across the board:

 

A. give different players of different game modes something to work towards

B. entice/encourage players to try all the different parts of the game as to increase value spent of development time going into them

C. prevent players from burning out on just 1 game mode

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

ne.

>

> >Think about how many WvWers got into WvW because if you wanted to craft a legendary weapon you had to go into WvW.

>

> Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players *didn't* play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually *wanted* to play?

 

WvW is actually a LOT of fun, and I wouldn't ever have tried it had it not been for gift of Battle. In fact it's become my absolute favorite game mode after I tried it. They created a really good thing and you're saying that they shouldn't introduce others to playing it? WvW doesn't require a months long commitment for some they can get the reward track doing very simple things, building siege and protecting a base. Killing the sentry's and taking back camps/escorting yaks. Those aren't big time commitments and move you through the track relatively quickly. In fact it was doing exactly those things (and taking keeps/repairing keeps) that got me hooked on the game mode to begin with. I LOVE the aspect of putting together things, going and taking over things etc. I have played other games like that and enjoyed them but I didn't know that's what WvW was... I thought it was going to be simply PvP and I was burned out on PvP from playing League of Legends (5 man forced teams with various skills and usually someone throwing a fit and being outright toxic... NOT my favorite way to spend an afternoon playing).

 

If there had been a good description of it I would had tried it sooner. Being forced to step into it with Gift of Battle not only did it finish Gift of Battle I became hooked on it and joined a WvW guild. I'd been in PVE guilds but had no one to talk to or communicate with etc... Being part of WvW was so much better.

 

So no, I disagree completely that taste of WvW hooked me and I don't really play PVE anymore. I was already bored with PVE since there really wasn't much in the way interesting repeatable content. The encounters were always the same and some of the toons I played handled certain encounters better than others. I got to the point I'd log in do a daily and log out after map completion (HoT, and PoF maps included) on 4 toons, I had 4 others that I was starting to do it with just so that I could farm but I found it tedious and boring at that point..... Then I discovered WvW, I log in everyday and play for hours but it doesn't FEEL like I've been playing for hours. Sure the Maps are a bit stagnant but the actual gameplay is not. The encounters are always different because you're facing an entire server (sometimes linked server) full of other players from around the world.

 

The Build paths are inventive. People actually TEST builds in WvW because you CAN they are VIABLE... PVE? It's the same thing over and over. The only time PVE changes their build Path is when Zerkers or Condi gets a nerf then they switch between the two. Unless you're a Druid or a Mesmer. Sure the Runes change (sort of) but overall it's the same thing and it's boring to me. I would be miserable playing the game had I not discovered WvW. I still go into PVE and try new things (usually playing with my kids or my husband or my other family members but when they're not logged in I'm in WvW). I still enjoyed going and completing the Achievements in the 2 Living World Episodes but the "bored" time is gone. I have something that is actively interesting to me now and I would never have known about it had I not been "forced" to go into WvW.

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > >I prefer SPvP to collections and world completion. But tying the Funerary Armor to those specific POF collections and the Funerary Weapons to legendary bounties ensured that I actually spent time doing that content. As a result, getting the funerary stuff for my guardian made me appreciate the zones and the work that went into the bounty system and it made me appreciate the items themselves more. And it got me leading a bunch of legendary bounty trains helping people do the bosses as well. All the funerary stuff has a lot more meaning to me now because getting it required specific things from me than the Bounty Hunter and Warbeast armor sets, which I just passively unlocked all of while I played SPvP.

> >

> > But that's a content you came to enjoy. Was there never content in the game that you *never* enjoyed? Like I said, I agree with the idea that content can *draw* you to an area, there can be portions that require you to spend a *little* time doing a specific thing, and if you really enjoy it, then great, you can keep doing it. If you really don't enjoy it though, especially if the goal takes months to earn, then they should let you do something else instead.

> >

> > > I probably would have had more fun waiting every week for Priory Explorer Elise and being excited about what recipe she's offering next and wondering when and where's she's going to be found. It diversifies player experience. It gives items tangible meaning and makes them cool. And by making people do a variety of things aside from their number 1 favorite thing it prevents burn out.

> >

> > But none of what you describe could be compared at all to raiding. You describe minor inconveniences and half-week grinds, when what we're talking about is a multi-month grind of very complex and deliberately annoying content. Apples and oranges.

> >

> > >Plus a lot of times players will avoid things they're unfamiliar with. It took me over a year after release to ever set for in PvP or WvW.

> >

> > But again, that can be accomplished with a short term goal, it doesn't require a long term one.

> >

> > >Think about how many WvWers got into WvW because if you wanted to craft a legendary weapon you had to go into WvW.

> >

> > Why is it good for the game for WvW to be a thing, in the abstract? If people don't want to do it, why should they have to? Is it worth spending developer resources on the mode if people only do it because the developers bribe them into it? Wouldn't it just be better if players *didn't* play that mode, and instead those resources were spent on the content they actually *wanted* to play?

>

> Existing WVW players (and indeed all potential players) need long term goals, so Anet added them to wvw to fill the gap. WVW already had a ton of short term goals. Other players got attracted to WVW as a result as the overall content package became more attractive.

 

And it's SO much more fun (in my opinion). But they really need to fix our Legendary armor... It's just depressing.

 

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> >So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

> Still a "no" from me. What reason do *you* think that people who raid should get exclusive rewards?

 

Well you see you claimed that there was _no_ reason. What you were probably planning for is me giving a reason why raiders deserve exclusive rewards and you arguing against it and both of us descending back into madness where you try to beat people with your verbosity (doesn't work btw). But what's actually going to probably happen is I'm going to stick that phrase you wrote "There is **NO REASON** why they [raiders] should have exclusive access to **ANYTHING**." to you and force you to defend it and my prediction is you will eventually stop responding after evading it for a while.

[Ferelwing.8463]

> @"Sernius Alathar.6538" said:

> I am sure originally this thread was about raiding having difficulty degrees, like a large majority of MMO's have but GW2 for some reason doesn't. I mean, at the very least there should be a story mode like we had with dungeons. As for how you balance difficulty, I am unsure, especially since raids were based off the performance off elitest guild testing, and not using a random sample of players to judge content difficulty. Most other MMO's with raid content have duo or triple splits (normal/advanced/elite) and the rewards/difficulty is suitably adjusted.

>

> But what has become abundantly clear is that this 79page thread is actually less about raid accessibility and more about gated rewards. As someone who has crafted every legendary weapon, made my flashy trinket and backpiece, and nearing completion of WvW legendary armor. I find it a lil galling that legendary armor (the shiny most people want for QoL and utility) is stuck in the most tedious and unrewarding content in the game. (let's face it, the rewards for raids are pretty kitten compared to proper farming).

>

> What I don't understand is why there is 1 way to obtain some of this stuff, this is legendary journey stuff, it should always have been accessible by doing any content in the game PvP/WvW/PvE/Raids/Fractals whatever. None of the legendary equipment besides the backpieces should be gated by specific content - especially when one moment they tell us we are meant to get rewarded for doing the content we wish to do, then forcing a gated content down our throats. Legendary Equipment - the general stuff - weapons/trinkets/Armor. Should be accessible from any part of the game.

>

> Honestly, legendary armor needs to be unlinked to raids, and leave the already raid only weapons and rewards that exist for that content only (the way dungeons had unique thematic skins and fractals). Reshape legendary Insights to be similar to the bounty system in PoF, add/create a new achievement tier for weeklies and link activities that can reward exclusive items for armor progress like Legendary Insights. e.g. Kill x-Legendary Bosses in Dungeons, Fractals, WvW, Raids, and PvE. (specific or unspecific) and you get x-amount of legendary insights for completing weekly legendary boss targets.

>

> If raiders truly enjoy raiding then they won't have any issue with this since they are doing it for the *kitten* prestige, and fun?. They can give them a fancy badge like you get with PvP tournament tiers for raiding, if they want to show off whatever it is they think they have achieved. And there would be LESS of these threads constantly popping up because of the dissatisfaction with the current situation. ( I mean seriously, it's been a constant gripe since raids and armor was announced, it's obviously an ongoing and will continue to be an ongoing problem that needs resolving).

>

> And to my WvW brethren, I 150% agree with the cheap kitten look of WvW legendary armor, utterly disappointing.

 

 

Isn't it? I mean seriously why does PVE get the "shiniest of the shiny" for the tiny amount of builds that they actually use? I would very much like some nice looking Legendary Armor, it would be cool if after every few 100 levels you got something that would change the look of the armor... But seriously, WvW Legendary armor is really boring...