STIHL.2489 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Digit.1823" said: > > > > > > > And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit? > > > > > > > > > > If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway. > > > > > > > > If someone is only staying for raids, then the rest of the game wasn't good enough for them, why bother trying to keep them? > > > > > > > > That logic goes both ways. > > > > > > > > > > Because A + B > A for all positive values of B. > > > > That is why they should put in an Easy Mode.. to make as many of their players as happy as they can.. because A + B > A. > > E is a negative value And this makes.. No sense at all. Much like all the pro-raid retorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > But you're definitely right. It's almost like Arenanet knows game design better than people who look at one aspect of a game and cry "Why does this get to be cool and enjoyable?! Nerf please." > > > > Nobody is asking anyone to nerf any cool or enjoyable parts of the game. > Easy mode is literally nerfing the content. Only to the people too lazy or chicken to do normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Sykper.6583" said: >However, this does not remotely compare to the gain and/or the retention of current players courtesy of raids being implemented, which is exactly why raids were made. And I think that's why nobody is actually trying to take raids *away* from anyone. What needs to happen, however, is for the downsides of raiding to be mitigated. Keep raids for those who want them, reduce the negative impacts for those who don't enjoy challenging content and the culture that comes with it. > @"TexZero.7910" said: >Also, what little story there is isn't a "GW2" story. The majority of them are GW1 stories that happen to play out in GW2's timeline. The only thing that is "GW2" is the rescue of Bennet but everyone can see Bennets story in LS just by talking to him. I'm sorry, Tex, but if it's running in the GW2 engine, then it's *all* GW2 story, every last moment of it. And don't forget it. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: >Player vs Player like Conquest and WvW are played for fundamentally different reasons than PvE. As are raids, a point I've made time and again. There is far more overlap between "people who enjoy raids" and "people who enjoy PvP" than between "people who enjoy open world GW2 content" and "people who enjoy raids." Raids are a fundamentally different type of gameplay with a fundamentally distinct audience. >Easy mode is literally nerfing the content. No, it's not. The content you would be playing, the normal mode content, would be left 100% intact, not altered in the slightest. The easy mode, that would have nothing to do with you, because it would offer you absolutely no reasons to participate. There would be nothing whatsoever that you could get from it that you couldn't from normal mode if normal mode is what you prefer. That is not a "nerf," it is just another option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > Because A + B > A for all positive values of B. > > > > That is why they should put in an Easy Mode.. to make as many of their players as happy as they can.. because A + B > A. > > E is a negative value Because you say so? That's ...not a very strong argument. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > But you're definitely right. It's almost like Arenanet knows game design better than people who look at one aspect of a game and cry "Why does this get to be cool and enjoyable?! Nerf please." > > > > Nobody is asking anyone to nerf any cool or enjoyable parts of the game. > Easy mode is literally nerfing the content. It literally isn't. No, seriously, making a new content that is an easier version of an already existing content is nowhere the same as nerfing that original content. Now, if you'd want to nerf the current raids directly, i _wouldn't_ be opposed to that, but that's not what we were talking about. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Ok. So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > > > No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports. > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? I'll grant a few, very few, players develop their own stuff but moxt do exactly this. Then you add that to a static group who knows what the others are gonna do, then its an exact repeat. > I apologize for making it sound so disrespectful, because I did enjoy the raids i've been on. But, to claim "better player status" over someone who can run Havoc or zerg or solo in wvw, or ranks high in PvP is preposterous. In those areas you have to adapt on the fly and no 2 fights are ever the same. > While I don't want to take away from the satisfaction of a successful raid, I will certainly call BS on a claim of raider superiority > I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP. Of course I wouldn't compare a raider that is getting carried by others with a high rank PvP player. But considering rewards winning a tournament in PvP also gives you much better rewards than just playing bronze ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Teamkiller.4315" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Ok. > > So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said? You didn't bring anything. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > Because A + B > A for all positive values of B. > > > > > > That is why they should put in an Easy Mode.. to make as many of their players as happy as they can.. because A + B > A. > > > > E is a negative value > Because you say so? That's ...not a very strong argument. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > But you're definitely right. It's almost like Arenanet knows game design better than people who look at one aspect of a game and cry "Why does this get to be cool and enjoyable?! Nerf please." > > > > > > Nobody is asking anyone to nerf any cool or enjoyable parts of the game. > > Easy mode is literally nerfing the content. > It literally isn't. No, seriously, making a new content that is an easier version of an already existing content is nowhere the same as nerfing that original content. Now, if you'd want to nerf the current raids directly, i _wouldn't_ be opposed to that, but that's not what we were talking about. At all. I've made it [abundantly](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/534646/#Comment_534646 "abundantly") [clear](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/535055/#Comment_535055 "clear ") why I think easy mode is a negative addition to the game. You're welcome to read and respond to those two posts. And yes, a hypothetical easy mode isn't just a nerfed version of the fight(Which it absolutely is and it's absurd and disingenuous to call argue otherwise) it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. Well, that’s preposterous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. > > Well, that’s preposterous. > > It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Digit.1823" said: > >I think what most people debating for easy mode for raids are forgetting is developer intent. > > Developer intent is irrelevant. This is a commercial product, it's about the players, not the developers. If the developers want to make games entirely about their own intent, then they should not charge money for them. So, creators are not allowed to have intentions as long as some people are going to pay for the end product? That's backward. How that really works is, the creator convinces someone that the vision will be a success. The backer, convinced, agrees to finance the product. Then, the creator implements the creative intent. If consumers like what the creator made, they buy it. If they don't like it, they don't buy it. > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time. And "existing" players? What a joke. ANet as a studio has always cared more about the dedicated gamer than they have about the dilettante. > > Then why did they make and spent three years operating a game for dilettantes? It would be like Candy Crush suddenly complaining about all the "filthy casuals." ANet made a game for multiple demographics. GW2 is still a game for multiple demographics. A lot of things ANet tried in the beginning didn't work out over the long term, so they changed tactics: Living World as the vehicle for all additions to the game; "all characters will have max stat gear by level 80;" servers for PvE; even World versus World servers are going bye-bye in favor of a new iteration. ANet always intended that the game would have harder instanced PvE with exclusive rewards. That's what explorable dungeons were meant to be. Explorable dungeons didn't work out for the long term, so they tried something else. They iterated, but, they never abandoned the intent. ANet never abandoned the dilettantes, either, despite beliefs expressed in this thread. The lion's share of both content and reward are aimed at open-world PvE. However, ANet decided -- before launch -- that to get _every reward_ the game offered, or will ever offer, players will have to play _every bit of content_ they tie those rewards to. So, the game catered to casual players, but it was never _solely_ about "casual players." That you think otherwise shows that you have not been paying attention to what ANet says and does, or maybe that you were never affected by it before. > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > Nope, you don't get to separate those, it's a package deal. > > Of course it isn't. Those are two entirely separate things. You're just choosing to insist that they cannot be separated, like insisting that it's impossible to make a sandwich that is *only* peanut butter without jelly. You're talking out of context. The context was MMO fan/raider psychology, not game design principles. ANet decided to buy into the raid paradigm. They made that decision the moment they decided to tie Legendary Armor to raid participation. It is my hope they did that because they believed it was the best decision they could make for the health of the game. You, of course, are going to believe otherwise. However, if you are going to comment on something I said, please make the effort to understand what my statement meant first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. > > > > Well, that’s preposterous. > > > > > > It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. That’s not a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > I wouldn't be opposed to making them more widely available. It wouldn't lessen the worth of said episodes to me in the slightest. If the worth of the episodes depended on their rewards being exclusive, it would just mean for me that the episodes themselves were really bad. That would certainly "kill" some episodes. The worth of an episode does depend on having exclusive rewards, which is why, they do have those. That's not going to change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. > > > > > > Well, that’s preposterous. > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. > > That’s not a bad thing. It is. An easy mode, if created, should be created with the aim to provide easier practice and prepare raiders for the real thing -normal mode. A nerfed easy mode will never accomplish that objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: >So, creators are not allowed to have intentions as long as some people are going to pay for the end product? Of course not. They're *allowed* to have intentions, it's just that those intentions don't *matter.* As they say "no battleplan survives contact with the enemy." If the developers *intend* one thing, but the community *reacts* differently than expected, then the developers need to adapt to that, either by bending to that reaction, or by figuring out a way to steer the community toward where they want to go. Stubbornly insisting on the initial path is a recipe for disaster. >You're talking out of context. The context was MMO fan/raider psychology, not game design principles. ANet decided to buy into the raid paradigm. They made that decision the moment they decided to tie Legendary Armor to raid participation. It is my hope they did that because they believed it was the best decision they could make for the health of the game. You, of course, are going to believe otherwise. However, if you are going to comment on something I said, please make the effort to understand what my statement meant first. My point was, even if that is something raiders *believe,* it doesn't mean that the developers are bound to enable those beliefs. I don't disagree with you that raiders feel entitled to better rewards than everyone else, I'm just pointing out that the developers can ignore that, and I believe should have. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > I wouldn't be opposed to making them more widely available. It wouldn't lessen the worth of said episodes to me in the slightest. If the worth of the episodes depended on their rewards being exclusive, it would just mean for me that the episodes themselves were really bad. > > That would certainly "kill" some episodes. The worth of an episode does depend on having exclusive rewards, which is why, they do have those. That's not going to change Nah, the point of the episodes is the story attached. If you don't care about playing through the story then why even bother with the episode? I can't even remember what the reward is for most of them. Either way, you can clear any story episode in a day or two, it's hardly comparable to Legendary Armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > > > No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports. > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. > > > > > > Well, that’s preposterous. > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. > > That’s not a bad thing. Actually it is. It does exactly what mortrialus said - it kills the thrill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. > > > > > > > > Well, that’s preposterous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. > > > > That’s not a bad thing. > > Actually it is. It does exactly what mortrialus said - it kills the thrill. That thrill only exists for your first kill not your third fourth and fifth kill... And depending on your skill you could feel that same way for an easy mode kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > > > > > > No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports. > > > > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? > > Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids. I have to second this. This did not start with raids though, this goes as far back as fractals. I was one of the minority who got into fractals 2 weeks after they were added to the game and was almost immediately hooked. The step up from dungeons was huge back then. Not only that but being able (and required for level 40+ due to lack of agony resistance since only rings were available) to mitigate damage by dodging boss attacks was a thrill to learn and improved my game play significantly. This might not be popular, but being challenged via in game content does improve your game skills just like with every other task you have to overcome. I'm not advocating that all content needs to be made challenging, I actually enjoy the mixed and very heavy focus on easy content in GW2 (hello most open world boss events for example). To argue that raids or other challenging content provides no benefit to player skill is ludicrous though. Even with a cookie cutter build and rotation available you have to actually master and understand when to use what skills. As a matter of fact, copying is one of our most basic techniques of improvement already applied by little children who mimic their parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > > > > > > > > > No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports. > > > > > > > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? > > > > Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids. > > I have to second this. > > This did not start with raids though, this goes as far back as fractals. I was one of the minority who got into fractals 2 weeks after they were added to the game and was almost immediately hooked. The step up from dungeons was huge back then. Not only that but being able (and required for level 40+ due to lack of agony resistance since only rings were available) to mitigate damage by dodging boss attacks was a thrill to learn and improved my game play significantly. > > This might not be popular, but being challenged via in game content does improve your game skills just like with every other task you have to overcome. > > I'm not advocating that all content needs to be made challenging, I actually enjoy the mixed and very heavy focus on easy content in GW2 (hello most open world boss events for example). To argue that raids or other challenging content provides no benefit to player skill is ludicrous though. Even with a cookie cutter build and rotation available you have to actually master and understand when to use what skills. As a matter of fact, copying is one of our most basic techniques of improvement already applied by little children who mimic their parents. I found this in more visible after doing loads of pvp rather then Raids, but to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > it nerfs the thrill of normal mode even if you never ever step in easy mode. > > > > > > Well, that’s preposterous. > > > > > > > > > > It's not. Because no matter how challenging something is, when there is an easy mode there is always that safety net telling you it doesn't matter if you can't beat normal mode. > > That’s not a bad thing. The game telling you it doesn't matter whether you win or not is absolutely a very bad no good thing. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > > > > > > No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports. > > > > > > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? > > Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids. Same. I was half the player I was before I played dungeons compared to afterwords. And I was like a tenth of the player I was before I did raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know. Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said: > > > Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? > > > > This is exactly what happens in PVP too you know. > > Except what is different is the human player element and that the fight isn’t exactly the same every time. > You'd be surprised about that. You learn how to counter different builds with your own build and then you can make the fights the same. Unless you are talking at the highest tournament level of course. Playing at bronze PVP level you fight "players" that are dumber than the AI, much easier to deal with than scripted encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > This might not be popular, but being challenged via in game content does improve your game skills just like with every other task you have to overcome. It does, and that's good, the problem is when *not* being "improved" enough prevents you from clearing the content in question. Content should make you stronger over time, it just shouldn't *require* of you more strength than you already have. >To argue that raids or other challenging content provides no benefit to player skill is ludicrous though. Of course. Who's doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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